Classic & Vintage - Back in the Day, was it normal to have +3" of saddle to handlebar drop?

I have two old road frames. One is a bit small for me (56cm) and the other is bit large for me (60cm)

One each one, with my seat raised to the proper Lemond Formula-based height, and the stem raised up to the minimum insertion point, I still have about 3" of drop on each bike.

I'm not surprised the 56cm Miyata has that much drop, but the other bike in an old Medici touring frame.

I know for a fact the larger frame is not too small for me. It's larger than the 58cm Surly Crosscheck that fits me perfectly. On that bike, I have 1" of drop.

Doesn't make much sense to me. Do you have profile photos of both bikes as currently set up? Are the stems the same length above min insertion? Do either have negative rise? The Medici might have a higher BB, but 6 centimeters worth? Higher BB would raise the top tube anyway...sure it's not a TT funny bike? :)

Okay, I just clicked on your sig links. Is that how they are currently set up? Not the best views to compare, but it appears the Medici stem clamp is about level with your saddle?

Drop seems to go in and out of fashion depending on who is designing and spec'ing the bikes. I remember MTB's having 3" of drop in '90 or so.

I was just spending some time re-fitting my old road bikes with traditional quill stems. So the pics are very out of date. Yes, if I use a stem adapter and use a threadless stem flipped up, then I can have my bars nearly level with the saddle. But since my quill stems are fairly short, I was thinking they would work since the bars would be lower, but closer.

I also wonder if it could be something with my geometry. I have pretty long legs, so I jack my saddle up pretty high. But on the Medici frame, my standover clearance is pretty much zero. My long legs make my torso short, but I also have pretty long arms.

I'm hoping the bike feels OK when I go out and ride it like this. I haven't ridden either of my old frames in a while.

Saddle to bar drop is not a fashion statement, it is in fact the result of fitting for performance vs fitting for comfort.

It does seem like a lot of people suddenly think they need to jack the handlebars up higher than the saddle but the fact is that 3 to 4 inches of drop are entirely normal and common on a bike set up for and designed for road racing and for many people, including me, is more comfortable. I could not imagine riding a bike with the bars even with the saddle or higher, that must be awfully uncomfortable with all that seat pressure not to mention horribly inefficient not only from aerodynamics but also from the point of human physiology.

Back in the day (1970's), the drop was not as extreme as it is today - either for competitive, or recreational riding. For competitive riding, 3" of drop was well within the normal range. For recreational riding - not so much.

On stock frames, the generality is that riders with long legs (and short torsos) need to show a lot of seat post. Riders with long arms can tolerate a lower handlebar because they can reach down farther.

Your bikes certainly don't look radical. The Surly setup actually looks a lot like the way I set up my Raleigh International in the early 1970s, but my arms and legs are long. We who are built this way have always set up our bikes like this. http://lakeside-bikes.com/merchant/240/images/large/EddyMerckx.jpg

Back in the day 3 inches was a big drop for recreational riding. 2 inches was more the norm.
I see lots of old steeds with 3+ inches of drop. To me, it looks funny as I rode those bikes when they were new (and rode with others of course) and 2- 2 1/2 inches was all anyone ran before moving on to a bigger frame.
Time and fashions change. But the bend in your spine doesn't. If I had to choose between two vintage bikes for a century tomorrow I would pick the 2 inch drop over the 3 inch drop every time.

Back in the day (1970's), the drop was not as extreme as it is today - either for competitive, or recreational riding. For competitive riding, 3" of drop was well within the normal range. For recreational riding - not so much.

+1 Back in the day (1970s), riders tended to be put on bigger frames. So if anything, much less seat post was exposed. So in the 1970s, I was put onto a 61cm frame (24 inch). I now ride a 56cm (22 inch). By any measure, a two inch difference in frame size is a lot. Needless to say, I had very little seat post showing at all on the 61cm frame. So on that bike, even if I had the stem down as low as it would go, seat was just about level with handlebars.

Lemond, in his book, recommended 2-3 inches. A lot depends on your height, torso length, arm length and comfort level. Most folks (not all) seem to find that as they get older they can not ride as comfortably for long distances with the same drop they used when they were younger.

I could not imagine riding a bike with the bars even with the saddle or higher, that must be awfully uncomfortable with all that seat pressure not to mention horribly inefficient not only from aerodynamics but also from the point of human physiology.

Okay, try taking your argument to a cyclotourist. We're not all trying to shave 5 seconds off our training loop time, TYVM.

I'm figuring I'll try it with a lower, shorter stem and see how that feels. I also put on shorter reach bars with shallower drops.

I'm still confused how you have an equal saddle to bar drop on both frames if your saddle to pedal distance and stem height above the headset are the same.

Lemond, in his book, recommended 2-3 inches. A lot depends on your height, torso length, arm length and comfort level. Most folks (not all) seem to find that as they get older they can not ride as comfortably for long distances with the same drop they used when they were younger.

I have about 8 cm of drop when I am out of shape, 10 cm when I have been riding for a while.

How the original poster got where he states is beyond new math, something else is different. Dyna Drive pedals?

+1 Back in the day (1970s), riders tended to be put on bigger frames. So if anything, much less seat post was exposed. So in the 1970s, I was put onto a 61cm frame (24 inch). I now ride a 56cm (22 inch). By any measure, a two inch difference in frame size is a lot. Needless to say, I had very little seat post showing at all on the 61cm frame. So on that bike, even if I had the stem down as low as it would go, seat was just about level with handlebars.

For me the amount of drop, seat post showing, and stem showing is as much as aesthetic thing to me. Of course, the drop should be appropriate for your level of fitness and flexibility. But while I can't quantify it for you, a bike just "looks right" when the seat post and stem are "right". That narrows it down doesn't it?! :) Am I alone?

On the Miyata, I may have the seat lower since I use it with platform pedals as opposed to clipless and it has a more slack geometry.

I have a pretty big drop between my saddle and stem, compared to most,

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/BeckVFR/DSC00159.jpg

............but certainly not the worst that I've seen in this forum. Even I, sometimes start wondering if I have it all wrong on my bike when I see my own pics of it, but the thing is, I feel very comfortable with the amount of drop I have been riding with since the 80's despite the big gap of non-bicycle riding years in between. One thing I notice is my ability to avoid weighting the bars too much even at the lowest position. There seems to be some muscle memory in my body to support the weight of my upper body, using muscles in my torso. I think seemed to have retained this ability because I also ride sport motorcycles with low bars. in the intervening years when I stopped riding bicycles for a while. It also must help that my body proportions are of long legs and arms and whortish torso. Maybe my case explains why some bikes are set up with saddles and stems that look almost impossible different in height for some people.

Chombi

I have a pretty big drop between my saddle and stem, compared to most,

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/BeckVFR/DSC00159.jpg

So, there are additional factors we've not discussed. Do you generally ride the tops or the drops? I have to say, those are fairly deep drops (at least they look it on a small frame :) - Cinelli 64s?). Do you ride the hoods much, because if so...ouch!

But I think you hit the nail on the head in your comments: ride what's comfortable for you and what keeps you riding.

So, there are additional factors we've not discussed. Do you generally ride the tops or the drops? I have to say, those are fairly deep drops (at least they look it on a small frame :) - Cinelli 64s?). Do you ride the hoods much, because if so...ouch!

But I think you hit the nail on the head in your comments: ride what's comfortable for you and what keeps you riding.

The bar's a Mavic model 350. It has more of a "criterium" bend to it where the bars drop quickly (but not as much as track bars) after just a little bit of a flat portion right next to the stem. I think it actually has a deeper drop than the Mavic Model 351 SSC bars. I ride mostly on the hoods and the drops and only go to the top to stretch out once in a while.


Chombi

I like a lot of drop, I am entirely comfortable on this bike:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/bikes/PA240117.jpg

or this one:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/bikes/DSCF0023.jpg

and several others I have. I could not imagine ever having the bars up even to the saddle, that must be horribly uncomfortable to do that?

Of course from all of you guys with the handle bars jacked way up something like this would be perfections I suppose:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/bikes/DSCF0038.jpg

I bet this guy (bike came from an estate sale) died from hemorrhoids as a result of bicycleseatstuffedinass syndrome with all of the weight on his posterior.

Saddle to bar drop is not a fashion statement, it is in fact the result of fitting for performance vs fitting for comfort.

It does seem like a lot of people suddenly think they need to jack the handlebars up higher than the saddle but the fact is that 3 to 4 inches of drop are entirely normal and common on a bike set up for and designed for road racing and for many people, including me, is more comfortable. I could not imagine riding a bike with the bars even with the saddle or higher, that must be awfully uncomfortable with all that seat pressure not to mention horribly inefficient not only from aerodynamics but also from the point of human physiology.

Thank you!

I could not imagine ever having the bars up even to the saddle, that must be horribly uncomfortable to do that?

Well, I've done metric and imperial centuries on bikes with level bars and saddles, and my hands, wrists, shoulders, neck and back weren't sore at all afterwards? And cyclotourists prefer bars level with or higher than the saddle? Must be comfortable to many?

Saddle to bar drop is not a fashion statement, it is in fact the result of fitting for performance vs fitting for comfort.

It does seem like a lot of people suddenly think they need to jack the handlebars up higher than the saddle but the fact is that 3 to 4 inches of drop are entirely normal and common on a bike set up for and designed for road racing and for many people, including me, is more comfortable. I could not imagine riding a bike with the bars even with the saddle or higher, that must be awfully uncomfortable with all that seat pressure not to mention horribly inefficient not only from aerodynamics but also from the point of human physiology.

Recently I felt I was putting too much pressure on my hands and wrists. I raised the stem on my bike just a touch lower than the saddle and I can say with confidence that I feel more balanced. It may not be right for everyone but I have been enjoying that particular bike a lot more.

We are all different and there is a reason seatposts and stems are adjustable.

My bikes have drops in the 3-5" range. That's what works for me.

For those who advocate substantially higher stems, remember that part of fit and riding performance is weight distribution. The higher the stem, the more weight on your butt.

Now, what I don't get are the pics of bikes I see with the stem substantially above the seat and Brooks saddles pointing up towards the sky. Literally, I doubt I could ride a bike set up that way.

BTW, each and everyone of you should devote a 10 minutes everyday to progressive stretching. It will do wonders for all of those sore backs and necks you complain about.

If both frames have horizontal TTs and you set the same saddle height on both, I can't see how it's possible that the two have the same saddle/bar drop, unless the smaller frame has a special extended headtube or a lot of spacers at the headset or stem.

Back in the day, when top tubes were level, the standard aesthetic for road racers was that the amount of seat post showing should approximate the length of the head tube. This would give a very "balanced" look to the bike. The stem height would also be proportional to the head tube size (rule of thumb: it just looks right), but in any event the bars would definitely be set lower than the saddle. The human body is very good at adapting!

This whole idea, promoted by cyclotouristes and Grant Peterson at Rivendell, that the bars should be level with the saddle, is predicated (in my opinion) on the assumption that the rider should be comfortable in the drops. This is the prime fallacy! The rider should be comfortable on the tops or on the brake hoods, which should be the default position when riding. Getting down in the drops is only for sprinting or for pushing the tempo into a headwind, and the position is SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable for non-racers (unless you train regularly and are used to it) because it's a temporary stress position. Cyclotouristes have no reason to be in the drops in the first place. My fixed gear bike is set up the way my racing bikes were when I was competing, and I've done entire 600 km randonnees without once getting into the drops (I use white handlebar tape - the tops are dirty, the drops are like new!). So with the bars set below the saddle, you get an aesthetic bike setup and you're comfortable in the default position on the hoods. Simple.

Luis

Usual set up puts my hands level with my saddle when I am on the hoods and I can spend long stretches in the drops this way... pretty much a French fit here on my road bike and touring bike.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/roncooper1.JPG

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/1987cascade1a.JPG

For when I am feeling like I am 20... :)

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/confetti2010a.JPG

Enough with the lectures on proper saddle-handlebar drop. I don't see anyone pushing the theory of higher bar placement in this thread, but I do see several people with a rather narrow perspective on fit pushing the other side. Ride what is comfortable to you and keep the unsolicited advice to yourselves. Capiche?

I can just imagine what it would be like riding with some of you...

I wasn't really looking for advice on proper handlebar drop either. I was just wondering was how anyone managed to have 1-2" of drop in the days before sloping top tubes and threadless headsets. On my Surly, I have 1" of drop, but I also have 7cm of spacers and a stem with 7 deg. of rise.

Right now, the two bikes I mention are set up to have about as much drop as Chombi's Vitus. It's been real windy here, and both are fixed gears, so I haven't had much of a chance to ride them.

Another thing. It seems like back then, stems were a lot shorter and bars were a lot narrower. Does having the bars closer and narrower facilitate having them lower?

In the late '60s when I started with drop bars I had them level, because I was using a 3-speed with a mattress saddle, and couldn't get a Brooks on it. First 10-speed had a lower-cost Brooks and ended up with 1 inch bar drop. Now I use 1 inch to 0 inches depending on the bike.

I agree it's not a fashion statement, it's a parameter of optimized fit.

...

Another thing. It seems like back then, stems were a lot shorter and bars were a lot narrower. Does having the bars closer and narrower facilitate having them lower?

There were plenty of long stems around but the top tubes were longer. Today in the s/m/l version of frame sizing the top tubes continue to be shorter than in the past where every frame size could be set up with a specific top tube length.

Bars today are wider, in the 70's 42 cm ctc was rare, 40 cm was common. Ten years earlier, and 38 cm was common. In the 80's 42 and 44 cm ctc width bars were the rage. Now 44 and 46 cm, is common, but the various companies measure at different points, marketing.

The shape of the bar bend in profile is adapting to the typical riding style, bikes are often set up with the typical had position to be on the hoods, (that is where the brake, shifter control is best) and the drops for intermittent need.

+1 Back in the day (1970s), riders tended to be put on bigger frames. So if anything, much less seat post was exposed. So in the 1970s, I was put onto a 61cm frame (24 inch). I now ride a 56cm (22 inch). By any measure, a two inch difference in frame size is a lot. Needless to say, I had very little seat post showing at all on the 61cm frame. So on that bike, even if I had the stem down as low as it would go, seat was just about level with handlebars.

Yes, less seat post was exposed, and for a given rider, the bar drop could have been achieved with a shorter quill (such as a Cinelli 1A) stem. At least on a 55cm Peugeot frame I use a nearly normal SR stem, while on my 53 cm frames I need a Nitto Tech Deluxe with 11 cm exposed above the insertion line.

This says nothing about what fit a given rider needs, but a lot about what parts are needed to achieve that fit on different frames.

In answer to the OP's question, back in the day 3" of drop would have been unusual for recreational cyclists. Back in the day 95% of us were recreational cyclists.

As ihbernhardt points out level handlebars works well if you ride in the drops more. This was a lot more common thirty years ago and that may be because there were no brifters back then. Riders regularly moved their hands around all over the bars depending on speed, wind direction, road tilt or how sore their hands were. With only five gears in the back they didn't shift as often as we do today but when they did change gears it only took one hand to go down to the levers and shift one or both derailleurs.

It still works well. A few saturdays ago I rode 113 miles of TOSRV in a 29 mph wind and I spent the entire trip down in the drops.

In answer to the OP's question, back in the day 3" of drop would have been unusual for recreational cyclists. Back in the day 95% of us were recreational cyclists.

As ihbernhardt points out level handlebars works well if you ride in the drops more. This was a lot more common thirty years ago and that may be because there were no brifters back then. Riders regularly moved their hands around all over the bars depending on speed, wind direction, road tilt or how sore their hands were. With only five gears in the back they didn't shift as often as we do today but when they did change gears it only took one hand to go down to the levers and shift one or both derailleurs.

It still works well. A few saturdays ago I rode 113 miles of TOSRV in a 29 mph wind and I spent the entire trip down in the drops.

+1!

Well, I've done metric and imperial centuries on bikes with level bars and saddles, and my hands, wrists, shoulders, neck and back weren't sore at all afterwards? And cyclotourists prefer bars level with or higher than the saddle? Must be comfortable to many?

I'll second this. The bars are nearly saddle height on my T700, it results in a relaxed, albeit slower ride, vs my Mirage Sport, which has 3ish inches of drop. Both are comfortable, they just have different uses.

I don't seem to go any faster when I get lower. In fact, it seems like if I put my hands on the top, and bring my elbows in, I'm as aero as I am in any other position.

Saddle to bar drop is not a fashion statement, it is in fact the result of fitting for performance vs fitting for comfort.

I could not imagine riding a bike with the bars even with the saddle or higher, that must be awfully uncomfortable with all that seat pressure not to mention horribly inefficient not only from aerodynamics but also from the point of human physiology.

This ought to curl your hair, then. I've got nerve trouble in my arms, so I need to re-balance how my weight is distributed. More on the back = less on the front.

Another reason for the change in set up is that modern levers and brakes deliver much more stopping power and you can get all the braking you need without moving your hands from the hoods to the drops... brifters are also optimized to be used from this position and some complain about the button / lever set up because you cannot downshift from the drops..

A lot of riders rarely use their drops and their preferred position is with their hands on the hoods... old school set ups put the bars higher so the drops were utilized more and put one in a better position to apply the brakes as some conventional models did not provide anything close to the stopping power from the hoods as modern brakes do.

I like being able to ride in the drops for extended periods..if I had a 3 inch drop to my bars I would not be able to do this. Rode 75km on my touring bike about a month ago and almost all of that was done in the drops. Had a nice tailwind for the first 50 and was really hammering it and then the wind shifted and I needed to be in the drops to fight some gale force winds for the last 25 which took me as long as the first 50.

Coming from a fully modern, brifter-equipped bike on which I rode the hoods 95% of the time I've really, and I mean REALLY come to love the far wider range of hand and body positions I'm experiencing on the Fuji Tiara I'm riding daily now. On my modern Cannondale, riding on the bars was barely different than the hoods. The drops were really too awkward for shifting and braking. I have very small hands which exacerbates that issue with brifters.

On the Tiara with some Sakae anatomic bars I get a wide range of hand positions and, more importantly, my back is actually in a different position in each one of them:

http://home.comcast.net/~khatfull/images/barpositions.jpg

I've really come to like being down in the drops on this bike. Oddly, the hoods are my least favorite position :)

I have very small hands which exacerbates that issue with brifters.

Do tell, are the position of downtube shifters easier to access, in comparison to curling your fingers around the hoods to get a purchase on the upshift or downshift lever of a brifter?

-Kurt

Do tell, are the position of downtube shifters easier to access, in comparison to curling your fingers around the hoods to get a purchase on the upshift or downshift lever of a brifter?

-Kurt

Well, shifting on the brifters on the hoods was far less an issue for me than reach for braking in the drops. I even went so far as to install some of those Specialized Slim Shims on my 105 brifters and that got the levers closer when in the drops...but still a reach. From the hoods I had little problem shifting or braking, it was always in the drops that I had my issues.

Now that I seem to be able to find the downtube shifters without thinking about it (see my "assimilation" thread :) yeah, I find the overall experience better. I don't think I'm ready for the rollers yet though :)

I'm still getting used to the difference in gearing from a 10 speed 50/34 and a 7 speed 52/42 but all things with time right?

I think that it is a personal choice and a lot of it depends of the particular use and the size of a bicycle (+1 on the 'no need for drop bars on a touring bike' bit). I am very comfortable in all of these 3 bikes with very different saddle to handlebar set ups (well, that Unicanitor rock has to go, though and I will probably move both the post and stem down a cm or so on that bike because I am getting cage pedals) :

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2645/4150017283_af46c63bf5.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2760/4454899713_a4a7fab311.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2516/4037086303_55d27bb37d.jpg

Coming from a fully modern, brifter-equipped bike on which I rode the hoods 95% of the time I've really, and I mean REALLY come to love the far wider range of hand and body positions I'm experiencing on the Fuji Tiara I'm riding daily now. On my modern Cannondale, riding on the bars was barely different than the hoods. The drops were really too awkward for shifting and braking. I have very small hands which exacerbates that issue with brifters.

On the Tiara with some Sakae anatomic bars I get a wide range of hand positions and, more importantly, my back is actually in a different position in each one of them:

http://home.comcast.net/~khatfull/images/barpositions.jpg

I've really come to like being down in the drops on this bike. Oddly, the hoods are my least favorite position :)

Roll those bars up a degree or two and you might find that the hoods become a better to put your hands... and you just gotta trust a guy with the same name as you.

Anatomic bars are either great or they make you crazy when you try and optimize every position they offer...

:)

Roll those bars up a degree or two and you might find that the hoods become a better to put your hands... and you just gotta trust a guy with the same name as you.

Anatomic bars are either great or they make you crazy when you try and optimize every position they offer...

:)

Ha! Keith or Hatfull? If you're a Hatfull I'd be surprised. :)

I hear ya. Now that I have a baseline I'm going to start that kind of fine tuning. I also have a different set of bars to throw on...same Sakae Anatomic, but with the cable grooves. So I gotta carefully mark where I have the levers now and transfer that. I REALLY like the bars where they are because when down in the deep drops the angle of that flat works great for my wrists. VERY comfortable. I never thought I'd be a drops rider. Well, that's pretty much changing now. I also think I could do with about 10-15mm more reach. I do have a longer stem (forget how much) that I'm going to throw on before I wrap the new bars, just to see. I will say, that's one thing I miss about threadless, easy stem swaps. :)

I have never stopped using down tube shifters and have yet to own a bike with brifters, although I do work on and test pilot a lot of high zoot machines.

Folks at the shop are still amazed I can fine tune indexed bikes since I am so often seen on a ss or fixed gear and only two of my bikes have indexed shifting... my mtb runs XT and my hybrid has some vintage XTR STI's that are probably the nicest mtb shifters I have ever used save for the new Shimano ten speed mtb group.

Because I ride a 52-55 cm frame I can reach the shifters when my thumb is resting across the top tube which gives me a good point of reference and I shift front and back with the same hand... it's rare to blow a shift and I don't even think about it.

I figure that if you are racing you need 10-11 speeds while mortals like us can get by pretty well with 6 or 7 in the rear... my newest build is running a 1 by 6 and uses 40 year old Huret shifters and works beautifully.

Saddle to bar drop is not a fashion statement, it is in fact the result of fitting for performance vs fitting for comfort.

It does seem like a lot of people suddenly think they need to jack the handlebars up higher than the saddle but the fact is that 3 to 4 inches of drop are entirely normal and common on a bike set up for and designed for road racing and for many people, including me, is more comfortable. I could not imagine riding a bike with the bars even with the saddle or higher, that must be awfully uncomfortable with all that seat pressure not to mention horribly inefficient not only from aerodynamics but also from the point of human physiology.
:lol:... It makes you wonder how the millions and millions of people that ride in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, China, and most of greater Europe do it every day. :rolleyes:

FWIW my bikes are setup similarly now to how I rode 30+ years ago. I.e. the top of the saddle is approximately 4" higher than the top of the stem. Currently I commute 25+ miles per day, most or all weekdays. Most of this distance I cover on the drops, which I find comfortable as well as efficient. My bikes have downtube shifters by the way. This setup works well for me, but I'm sure others have their own individual preferences.

:lol:... It makes you wonder how the millions and millions of people that ride in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, China, and most of greater Europe do it every day. :rolleyes:

Masochists... all of them.

I have done centuries on an upright roadster... must be one of those masochists.

:lol:... It makes you wonder how the millions and millions of people that ride in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, China, and most of greater Europe do it every day. :rolleyes:

people don't ride regular bicycles in north/central/south america, africa, australia, and the rest of asia?