Foo - Apple beat Microsoft by Market Capitalization

Teehee :D

http://images.macrumors.com/article/2010/05/26/131700-us_market_cap_leaders.jpg


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2010/05/26/131700-aapl_msft_3_months.jpg

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/05/26/apple-passes-microsoft-to-become-second-largest-u-s-company-by-market-capitalization/

yet neither is bigger than Big Oil... but I guess it's only a new gadget away.

They must be the best since they have the highest profit margins.

If Big Oil and M$ could improve their margins, I'm sure their popularity would improve. It's strange that people buy the most from the low margin businesses they hate the most.

They must be the best since they have the highest profit margins.

If Big Oil and M$ could improve their margins, I'm sure their popularity would improve. It's strange that people buy the most from the low margin businesses they hate the most.

Why are you getting irked by a point I am not trying to prove?

Why are you getting irked by a point I am not trying to prove?
Who says I'm irked?

If a company sells something I like for the right price, I buy. Otherwise I don't. I presume other people do the same. I do find the fascination in this forum with the value of Apple interesting. Why care about them any more than any other company? It's not like it's hard to find outfits with billions in market capitalization that everyone knows about.

They must be the best since they have the highest profit margins.

If Big Oil and M$ could improve their margins, I'm sure their popularity would improve. It's strange that people buy the most from the low margin businesses they hate the most.Microsoft's margins are much higher than Apple's.

Why care about them any more than any other company?

They've made me a happy computer user. :love:

Apple haters can bash them all they wont but that won't erase the years of frustration I've experienced with Windows.

I find success driven by a quest for perfection, fascinating.

Hey I'm a fan of Apple computers and I'm working with a power mac but I'm not sure that Apple having a bigger market capitalization than Microsoft is a good thing. Seriously if your only supplying a much smaller % of the market but your company is worth slightly more than your competitor on the stock market who is still supplying the lion's share of the market then where is the value for the stock holder?

I don't get it. Does anyone who understands the stock market well want to explain it.

Anthony

Hey I a fan of Apple computers and I'm working with a power mac but I'm not sure that Apple having a bigger market capitalization than Microsoft is a good thing. Seriously if your only supplying a much smaller % of the market but your company is worth slightly more than your competitor on the stock market who is still supplying the lion's share of the market then where is the value for the stock holder?

I don't get it. Does anyone who understands the stock market well want to explain it.

Anthony

I'm not talking from a stockholder's perspective but from a consumers perspective. Apple makes more money; they have and adequate budget to make better products and the customer is happy. It's a win-win situation.

The only one's who are sad are the one's who dislike apple's success. Us "Gullible mac fanboys" totally ruin their day :(

They've made me a happy computer user. :love:

Apple haters can bash them all they wont but that won't erase the years of frustration I've experienced with Windows.

I find success driven by a quest for perfection, fascinating.
Perfection? Give me a break. It's all about style. As if surfing the net, typing documents, and other stuff is so much different on a Mac. A trained monkey could use either system. Actually, he could probably figure it out without training.

If you were constantly having problems, you needed to quit installing so much crap or adding cheap 3rd party drivers/hardware. You don't need Steve Jobs to do that.

The only one's who are sad are the one's who dislike apple's success. Us "Gullible mac fanboys" totally ruin their day :(
The only reason people respond to the fanboys is they come across like L. Ron Hubbard fanatics who divide the world into "Apple vs. everything else." That many other companies sell hardware is obviously something they haven't picked up on yet.

Happily, Toshiba, Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc (or if we're talking phones, HTC, Samsung, Motorola, etc) fanboys know no one gives a rat's ass about what kind of hardware they like so they don't blather incessantly about it.

If Apple really were so great, it would have taken over years ago.

Perfection? Give me a break. It's all about style. As if surfing the net, typing documents, and other stuff is so much different on a Mac. A trained monkey could use either system. Actually, he could probably figure it out without training.

PCs are MUCH more tedious to use than Macs.


If you were constantly having problems, you needed to quit installing so much crap or adding cheap 3rd party drivers/hardware. You don't need Steve Jobs to do that.

Lol, Dell's come with crap pre installed! I was reminded of the awfulness of windows when I tried to get a scanner to work (on windows 7 no less). As of now, the feeder still does not work and no matter which driver I installed; it just refuses to work. Macs are practically plug and play.

PCs are MUCH more tedious to use than Macs.
Explain exactly what is so different. You click on the icon you want, the program pops up, and you can control what happens on the screen using your mouse, keyboard, or touch screen.



Lol, Dell's come with crap pre installed! I was reminded of the awfulness of windows when I tried to get a scanner to work (on windows 7 no less). As of now, the feeder still does not work and no matter which driver I installed; it just refuses to work. Macs are practically plug and play.
Again, there are different companies that make the machines so this is an individual company issue and is not inherent to the OS. Companies pay to have Dell and other outfits install crap, and Dell uses this to lower costs. It is not obligatory to buy the machines with crap on them, and even in Dell's case, you can get the machines without that.

As for your scanner problems, Windows should not be held responsible if you buy cheap crappy third party hardware that comes with poorly written drivers. There are plenty of products that work fine. People have fewer problems with Apple because you do not have the option of trying to use all this much cheaper 3rd party stuff. But this is not inherent to the OS.

Consider the Flash brouhaha with iPad. Apple doesn't want Flash on the iPad because they say it will make it not run as well and they'll get blamed. Apple is right about that. So they solve the problem by not letting consumers make that choice. But again, this increase in stability has been achieved through policy and not through technical superiority.

I will grant that many new Windows machines never run well, even if they are free of garbage. Especially at the lower end of the price range, you'll see some really low quality components. If you buy decent hardware, you won't get these problems. If you want a more accurate comparison of Apple hardware with Windows alternatives, compare it with the stuff in a similar price range, not the stuff at the bottom of the barrel.

I own both stocks but don't make the mistake of thinking that Apple is successful because of their computers. They are in the current position based on their other devices not their computers. I sell software to fortune 500 companies for a living, you know how many companies want our software on Apple, 0%. They are still primarily used for personal use, students and for creative design. MS still owns the corporate desktop. Apple gets a big margin advantage as they are selling to low volume customers and can get higher prices. MS is selling to big corporations who negotiate huge volume discounts. In addition MS sales get hurt by piracy much more than Apple does. MS is also struggling on the mobile device side as Apple and Android have stronger products.

I will grant that many new Windows machines never run well

There you go.

Apple's success is not really so complicated after all Fredly.

Explain exactly what is so different. You click on the icon you want, the program pops up, and you can control what happens on the screen using your mouse, keyboard, or touch screen.

Actually when I click on a windows program; it goes through a series of steps. First it has to think "did that guy just click the icon?", then once it finally figures out that I did click the icon it start opening it .... one...frame...at...a...time! Finally when the whole program opens up, it flashes a bunch of windows where you have to click OK or cancel some help windows etc...

I'm talking about a computer less than a year old here. These problems should NOT appear on a computer that new. It should take atleast 3 years. Another thing that bugs me is when I accidentally click F1. Help files take AGES to come up and I'm stuck till it finally appears so I can close it again.


As for your scanner problems, Windows should not be held responsible if you buy cheap crappy third party hardware that comes with poorly written drivers. There are plenty of products that work fine. People have fewer problems with Apple because you do not have the option of trying to use all this much cheaper 3rd party stuff. But this is not inherent to the OS.

I'm talking about a $500 Xerox scanner in my Boss's office at work.


Consider the Flash brouhaha with iPad. Apple doesn't want Flash on the iPad because they say it will make it not run as well and they'll get blamed. Apple is right about that. So they solve the problem by not letting consumers make that choice. But again, this increase in stability has been achieved through policy and not through technical superiority.

Well it IS Apple's products. They're the creator and they create their designs according to how they see fit. Ever seen a high end artist draw a paining according to how the customer wanted it? Even high end bicycle custom frame builders do not build frames according to how the customer wants it done. They have a formula that works and if they deviated from it; their reputation suffers.

If you knew a guy who took every single McDonald's ad campaign and then had t-shirts and bumper stickers printed of the slogans, like "I'm Loving It!" and "You Deserve a Break Today." If this person took every possible moment to inform you of the day-to-day performance of McDonald's stock prices, and was completely incapable of seeing a Burger King wrapper without having a fit, that would be a really, really, really annoying human being.


But for whatever reason Apple fanboys find this to be acceptable behavior.

Actually when I click on a windows program; it goes through a series of steps. First it has to think "did that guy just click the icon?", then once it finally figures out that I did click the icon it start opening it .... one...frame...at...a...time! Finally when the whole program opens up, it flashes a bunch of windows where you have to click OK or cancel some help windows etc...
There is something wrong with your computer. Perhaps it has garbage on it. Maybe the antivirus is screwing it up. If it's a work machine, desktop management software that your IT dept is using could be causing problems.

I use an 8 year old machine at home and have none of those problems. I often go months without shutting it down or rebooting. I had my previous machine for 8 years too. The newest machine anyone in our office has is 3 years old and many are older. We do not experience these problems.



I'm talking about a $500 Xerox scanner in my Boss's office at work.
It's very possible that the driver Xerox supplied is garbage. It is also possible that whoever set up your scanner did something screwy or that hyperactive system management software on your computer is messing things up.



Well it IS Apple's products. They're the creator and they create their designs according to how they see fit. Ever seen a high end artist draw a paining according to how the customer wanted it? Even high end bicycle custom frame builders do not build frames according to how the customer wants it done. They have a formula that works and if they deviated from it; their reputation suffers.
This may work for most home use, but it is not a realistic philosophy for most business environments. The need for highly specialized hardware and software is common. Heck, plenty of places develop their own tools.

As far as building bikes go, there's little point in getting a "custom" bike if all you're getting is something that's made from a less common cookie cutter. Meet my commuter:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3764566618_90b49a8ba1.jpg

It looks like a regular road bike, but it isn't. Aside from extra bottle bosses under the DT, routing for lighting and computer wiring along the fork and frame, and braze ons to take the rack I had built for it (below)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2715/4117269037_bee061c043_m.jpg

rear stays have been extended 20mm so I won't kick the panniers I mount when I'm commuting. The builder (http://winterbicycles.com/)used info I provided to select tubing that would provide the sort of ride I was looking for. Naturally, size was tweaked so it fits perfectly (he put a couple spacers in the steerer tube just in case, but after 6 months I had it cut).

In any case, defining the problem away by not letting things interact is not a sign of a superior system. Rather, it is a sign of a philosophical choice to limit options to reduce the number of things that can happen.

Microsofts margins will be much higher, since their product is an intangible. They don't manufacture hardware, they write code. Apple makes hardware, so has far higher overhead. Given the point spread between the two, and look at their nut they have to carry to achieve that market placement, MS is in a much healthier position, even with the lower gross.


Hey I'm a fan of Apple computers and I'm working with a power mac but I'm not sure that Apple having a bigger market capitalization than Microsoft is a good thing. Seriously if your only supplying a much smaller % of the market but your company is worth slightly more than your competitor on the stock market who is still supplying the lion's share of the market then where is the value for the stock holder?

I don't get it. Does anyone who understands the stock market well want to explain it.

Anthony

Microsofts margins will be much higher, since their product is an intangible. They don't manufacture hardware, they write code. Apple makes hardware, so has far higher overhead. Given the point spread between the two, and look at their nut they have to carry to achieve that market placement, MS is in a much healthier position, even with the lower gross.

You forget Microsoft's X Box line as well as the Zune etc...

Also given Microsofts latest tendency to try to catchup with Apple in it's products line I think Microsoft is losing focus on it's main point of success which isn't very healthy.

You forget Microsoft's X Box line as well as the Zune etc...

M$ is a software company. Apple is a hardware company. Neither has done impressively outside a few core products.

M$ is a software company. Apple is a hardware company. Neither has done impressively outside a few core products.

Which happens to be a very profitable practice. Microsoft is losing it's eye on the ball though as are a lot of other competitors of Apple.

If you knew a guy who took every single McDonald's ad campaign and then had t-shirts and bumper stickers printed of the slogans, like "I'm Loving It!" and "You Deserve a Break Today." If this person took every possible moment to inform you of the day-to-day performance of McDonald's stock prices, and was completely incapable of seeing a Burger King wrapper without having a fit, that would be a really, really, really annoying human being.


But for whatever reason Apple fanboys find this to be acceptable behavior.

You're really annoying, and nobody's sure you're even a human being.

Time to sell pcad. The bubble could burst any day now.

Not joking.

You're really annoying, and nobody's sure you're even a human being.

I thought you liked Mickey D's. How's their stock doing?

"It's a good time for the great taste of McDonald's"

Actually when I click on a windows program; it goes through a series of steps. First it has to think "did that guy just click the icon?", then once it finally figures out that I did click the icon it start opening it .... one...frame...at...a...time! Finally when the whole program opens up, it flashes a bunch of windows where you have to click OK or cancel some help windows etc...

That's neither fundamental to PC's nor to Windows. It's poorly set up systems. You don't get that as often in Mac's because the initial software configuration is so tightly controlled, and in general, the third party applications are more tightly controlled, too. That makes for a more consistent user experience, but also limits somewhat the development of third party applications. Also, from what I saw of the Snow Leopard transition (including my housemate whose MacBook took weeks to get repaired and only then by restoring to Leopard), Mac is far from impervious to major issues.

My 4 year old Windows XP PC runs superbly. Few programs take more than a couple seconds to be fully loaded. I can have Firefox open with half a dozen tabs in about 5 seconds. Anything I do is instantly beginning to process. No Mac I've ever worked on is any faster. Sometimes they give an impression of speed because short delays are cleverly disguised by the transitional animations that Mac OS-X, and now Windows 7 use, but the actual speed is no faster.


I personally am not too fascinated by the market cap comparison. That's just the perceived value to shareholders, and there's a lot of enthusiasm for Apple over the last couple of years.

Microsoft did $58 billion worth of business in 2009 and pays a little under a 2% dividend. Apple did $42 billion and pays no dividend. Their shareholder value is based on expectations of future value. Exxon did $302 billion and pays a 3% dividend.

Based on actual business size, there's no comparison. Both Microsoft and Apple are a long ways below Exxon, which sits at number 2 on the Fortune 500 list, compared to 36 and 56 respectively.

It's also not entirely useful to compare them too closely. Apple derives 28% of their income from computer sales, 65% from iPods, iPhones, Music, etc, and 3% from miscellaneous stuff. Only 4% is from software. They're in many ways a closer competitor with Dell than with Microsoft. The latter, meanwhile, gets 85% of their income from software and support. 40% of that is Windows, which is the main place they compete with Apple. 20% is servers, where they don't exactly seem threatened. 25% is their business products.

It's poorly set up systems. You don't get that as often in Mac's because the initial software configuration is so tightly controlled, and in general, the third party applications are more tightly controlled, too. That makes for a more consistent user experience, but also limits somewhat the development of third party applications.


If they do limit the development of third party apps I don't notice it. There are tons of apps out there that do everything you can imagine. AutoCAD is already working on betas for the mac and Steam has already created a mac version. I think the only reason software companies did not make software for the mac before was because there wasn't a substantial user base, which has changed now to become more significant.



Also, from what I saw of the Snow Leopard transition (including my housemate whose MacBook took weeks to get repaired and only then by restoring to Leopard), Mac is far from impervious to major issues.

For the majority of users who transitioned to Snow Leopard, it was very smooth (me included). Any issues I had was fixed with updates pretty promptly. Yes I'm well aware of macs not being impervious to Major Issues but they are waaaaay more impervious to problems than your typical PC (and when they do have problems, which is rare, it is in most cases a very easy fix) which is why a mac is my computer of choice to use at this particular moment in time.

p.s. It's no use trying to prove a point by saying how well your windows machine runs. As with anything in life there are exceptions to the rule.

p.p.s I would also like to point out that Windows users consider it normal to have small bugs (most of the time not considered such) here and there. They're used to random pop up windows, closing notifications as they randomly appear at the bottom right corner etc. With Macs; practically the only time I ever get popups is when I install an application or a system update which is very rare.

If they do limit the development of third party apps I don't notice it. There are tons of apps out there that do everything you can imagine. AutoCAD is already working on betas for the mac and Steam has already created a mac version. I think the only reason software companies did not make software for the mac before was because there wasn't a substantial user base, which has changed now to become more significant.
It has not changed. AutoCAD is about as specialized as Photoshop or Microsoft Access -- the userbase is huge.

Commodity software plays an important role, but there are many business apps that might be used by only a few dozen places (or even less). There is also specialized hardware. I'm not talking about printer copiers that you can buy for a few thousand, but rather gizmos that cost more on the order of $100K. In addition, Mac system management isn't nearly where Windows is. That's not an issue for small businesses that don't have many machines, but it's a deal buster for bigger shops that have hundreds or thousands of machines to maintain. Also, not being able to pop in commodity hardware is not an insignificant factor.

It costs a fortune to develop software, and it makes no sense whatsoever to develop multiple versions unless there is going to be some sort of payoff. Unless businesses start dumping Windows for Mac, that won't happen. If you think Macs will take over the business world, what's the business case? It costs significantly more but it doesn't run as many apps. It's harder to manage if you get a lot of machines.

In pcad's case, he has a small business, Apple runs the software he needs, he doesn't need to do any fancy system management, and he keeps everything made by the same company to improve compatibility. So it works for him. That model will not work for a large company.


p.s. It's no use trying to prove a point by saying how well your windows machine runs. As with anything in life there are exceptions to the rule.
This is not a rule. It is extremely rare for people in the places I work to have these problems, and when they do it is on home computers that have lots of crap installed on them.



p.p.s I would also like to point out that Windows users consider it normal to have small bugs (most of the time not considered such) here and there. They're used to random pop up windows, closing notifications as they randomly appear at the bottom right corner etc.
This is a perception mostly by Mac users. I don't know anyone who experiences these problems on any sort of regular basis. In our neighborhood, I'm known as a sort of tech guy and people call for help if they notice such problems. In 100% of the cases I've seen, the cause has been crap downloaded onto the machines -- this has nothing to do with the OS.

No computer used by me or my wife has ever experienced random popup windows or closing notifications at the bottom right corner. This is not normal and is a result of installing junk.

Wait, so let me get this straight. Apple is better because they use a capital M when spelling the word Markets?

This computer stuff makes my head hurt.

Wait, so let me get this straight. Apple is better because they use a capital M when spelling the word Markets?

Apples are good for you. Having anything described as microsoft when you're getting a physical is bad. Ask any doc.