Folding Bikes - The 2010 Devil's Thread: Hub Gear vs Dérailleur

Annoying thread warning: Contains ill-manners, abuse, man-bonding, psychotic rants, limp-wristed sycophancy, character assassinations, sociopathic assaults on the entire intellect of the cycling world, vapid and lengthy off-topic essays, and little of any lasting value. :)

And you thought it was just a bicycle thread.

Let battle commence:

Best post EVER!

I`ve had both a hub and Capreo derailleur on the same model bike - I greatly prefer the derailleur.

I have on my Moulton a dual contraption known as a '3x7' - which is a 3-speed Sram Hub gear with 7 cogs worth of durale...deur..de..the other sort. I can change on the move or stationary.

It's heavy with more things to go wrong and only 3 speed in the hub surely isn't too much evil.

I would say it's OK! but my vote goes to the Integrated Hub Gear because all the gubbins is hidden and I don't like seeing gubbins exposed and covered in dirt.

I also have a Brompton with a 3x2 - Don't get me or anyone else started on what's wrong with that!

Dérailleur: 2 -- Hub Gear: 1

I vote fixie.

I don't have any so they must be good.

Horses for courses.

Give me a Rohloff hub gear for touring, commuting or pootling

But for serious fast pace riding..... NOTHING beats a Derailleur system, enough said.


Derailleur: 3 Hub Gear: 1

I vote dual drive as I hate front mechs!

There I got away with out spelling drailer,dylerer,drayleeer, derayleer,draelerer,dayrleer,(rear mech)................................daisy,drawleer,trawler,rear thingy,............................................................................................. ..........................daywaster.....

Snafu, you trouble-maker - stirring the pot again! Answering this is too hard! It's like asking me which of my girlfriends I love the most :p. How can I possibly choose?


Well, the answer depends on the application, doesn't it? What kind of bike ride are you doing? Slow pootle to get ice cream, or 8 day solo touring, or racing with your testosterone-laden roadie group?

My problem is - I love them all! I like my Duomatic (almost fixie-like), love my clunky Brompton 6 speed bodge, love my Schlumpf, love the Capreo. They're all fun and interesting. I guess that's why I have so many folders - too much love to give...:o

OK, OK, if you really force me to choose. If you threaten to scratch the paint on my Moulton unless I answer. If you threaten to weld my Brompton so that it never folds again...I would grudgingly answer with the Capreo derayler system. There, now you have it. Now all my other folders won't love me anymore. Are you happy now? :p

Pssst! You can set this up as a poll to save you from having to count all the responses yourself...

Ahhhhhh ... we might as well get this annual conversation over with ... ;)

I'll vote derailer -- ala Sheldon Brown (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer.html) -- since in most circumstances it is the better choice, IMO.

Essentially, I think that derailer systems are very robust to the point that the increased robustness of an IGH is not worthwhile in most circumstances. Derailer drivetrains are also more available, cheaper, lighter, and very easy to fix.

If you have a super small wheel -- roughly less than the 20" sizes -- then I would seriously consider an IGH. I would also consider an IGH for a multimode commuter.

D: 4
IGH: 2

on a steel or alloy frame ?

+ 1 dérailleur,though my folders are all hub gear,and thankfully have lasted a long time.50,000miles on the shimano 7 speed,I bet it goes up the pictures now i have typed this ;-).

Hub +1

Hub

Obviously all of you who voted derailleur are a bunch of ignorant ninnies because derailleurs clearly aren't even worthy of consideration. The most likely cause of your confusion is that you perpetuate the sins of derailleur equipped bikes in all your cycling endeavours rather than allowing the glory of internal hubs to set you free. For example:
1. Dished wheels built to accommodate derailleurs are weak and difficult to build. As a result they're typically way overbuilt and give the impression that the simple task of wheelbuilding is not suited to the average cyclist. Since the undished wheels of internal hubs are inherently stronger you have the choice of either dropping weight with fewer spokes and lighter rims or considerably increasing the wheel strength by maintaining the same specification as a dished derailleur wheel. If you think IGHs wheels are heavier then you can only blame yourself for not building them according to your preferences and if you don't think building a wheel is easy then you can only blame your derailleur cassette for making it difficult.
2. On the topic of repair I would argue that a derailleur cannot be repaired by the average cyclist or in fact anyone at all because they simply aren't capable of working. What is so special about a derailleur system that it is considered functioning when cannot ever work after being scrubbed clean? How would you feel if you bought a new television which only worked when slathered in oil or covered in mud? Would you consider it functional or broken? At least IGHs can be fixed by someone as opposed to derailleurs which are in an eternal state of disrepair literally glued together with rotting carcases. IGH can be used as you need to use them, but deraileurs put the cart before the horse and need to be used according to their own fickle requirements.
3. Also internal hubs allow one to independently tune drivetrain efficiency whereas the efficiency of derailleur setups depend heavily on factors which cannot be optimized. For example, it is well known that things like chainline and cog sizes are some of the most important parameters affecting drivetrain efficiency (particularly cog sizes for small wheels). However, since these are the very parameters which a derailleur manipulates in order to affect mechanical advantage, the very use of a derailleur makes it impossible to have an all else equal comparison with equal chainline, cog sizes, etc. Consequently, like the wheel advantages above, since most derailleur users are accustomed to this derailleur limitation they leave these advantages unclaimed and unappreciated when they ride IGHs.
4. Expense: let's face it deraileurs require the entire gear system to be replaced every so often and cassettes aren't cheap. On the other hand IGHs need only have two sprockets replaced which represents a considerable savings.
5. Fixing flats. I don't know how derailleur equipped bikes got a reputation for being easier to fix flats, but I think it's decidedly easier with an IGH. The tangled web of spring loaded chain that you need to wrestle the wheel away from with a derailleur is a real chore.
6. Derailleurs take up more space all along the bike. This means there will be conflict whenever anything else tries to occupy that space like debris being kicked up, your clothing flapping in the breeze, or even just nice smooth aerodynamic air flow.

A few other points of clarification are:
-Shifting when stationary is exactly what you need for effectively moving on to the next thing while track standing. When riding in traffic the need to shift comes almost exclusively in response to sudden changes in conditions around you. In such cases predicting what gear you will need next or whether you will need to stop, track stand, or hammer is impossible and the planning required to effectively derail yourself into the right gear is futile and a dangerous distraction if you attempt it.
-I think fixed gear or single speed votes should count for hub gear. After all a single speed is simply a hub gear with one gear and shares all the aforementioned advantages of other hub gears.

Adding up Dynocoaster and me (and counting fixie for internal):
derailleur 6 igh 6

IGH

Derailleurs make sense if you ride for long distances without stopping. However, for a city rider like me, IGH make perfect sense.

I quoteth the late Sheldon Brown:

Internal-gear hubs are more reliable than derailer systems, and require much less maintenance. The step-up ratios of their top gears make oversize chainrings unnecessary on small-wheel folding bicycles. Unlike derailers, internal hubs shift even at a stop, very nice in stop-and-go urban traffic.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html

Hub. I like being able to shift down when I'm stopped. At the speeds I'm going who cares about decreased efficiency or increased weight or whatever? The 20lbs of groceries don't care. Also. I hate cleaning derailleurs. It is the epitome of suckity suck for me.

Obviously all of you who voted derailleur are a bunch of ignorant ninnies because derailleurs clearly aren't even worthy of consideration. The most likely cause of your confusion is that you perpetuate the sins of derailleur equipped bikes in all your cycling endeavours rather than allowing the glory of internal hubs to set you free. For example:
1. Dished wheels built to accommodate derailleurs are weak and difficult to build. As a result they're typically way overbuilt and give the impression that the simple task of wheelbuilding is not suited to the average cyclist. Since the undished wheels of internal hubs are inherently stronger you have the choice of either dropping weight with fewer spokes and lighter rims or considerably increasing the wheel strength by maintaining the same specification as a dished derailleur wheel. If you think IGHs wheels are heavier then you can only blame yourself for not building them according to your preferences and if you don't think building a wheel is easy then you can only blame your derailleur cassette for making it difficult.
2. On the topic of repair I would argue that a derailleur cannot be repaired by the average cyclist or in fact anyone at all because they simply aren't capable of working. What is so special about a derailleur system that it is considered functioning when cannot ever work after being scrubbed clean? How would you feel if you bought a new television which only worked when slathered in oil or covered in mud? Would you consider it functional or broken? At least IGHs can be fixed by someone as opposed to derailleurs which are in an eternal state of disrepair literally glued together with rotting carcases. IGH can be used as you need to use them, but deraileurs put the cart before the horse and need to be used according to their own fickle requirements.
3. Also internal hubs allow one to independently tune drivetrain efficiency whereas the efficiency of derailleur setups depend heavily on factors which cannot be optimized. For example, it is well known that things like chainline and cog sizes are some of the most important parameters affecting drivetrain efficiency (particularly cog sizes for small wheels). However, since these are the very parameters which a derailleur manipulates in order to affect mechanical advantage, the very use of a derailleur makes it impossible to have an all else equal comparison with equal chainline, cog sizes, etc. Consequently, like the wheel advantages above, since most derailleur users are accustomed to this derailleur limitation they leave these advantages unclaimed and unappreciated when they ride IGHs.
4. Expense: let's face it deraileurs require the entire gear system to be replaced every so often and cassettes aren't cheap. On the other hand IGHs need only have two sprockets replaced which represents a considerable savings.
5. Fixing flats. I don't know how derailleur equipped bikes got a reputation for being easier to fix flats, but I think it's decidedly easier with an IGH. The tangled web of spring loaded chain that you need to wrestle the wheel away from with a derailleur is a real chore.
6. Derailleurs take up more space all along the bike. This means there will be conflict whenever anything else tries to occupy that space like debris being kicked up, your clothing flapping in the breeze, or even just nice smooth aerodynamic air flow.

A few other points of clarification are:
-Shifting when stationary is exactly what you need for effectively moving on to the next thing while track standing. When riding in traffic the need to shift comes almost exclusively in response to sudden changes in conditions around you. In such cases predicting what gear you will need next or whether you will need to stop, track stand, or hammer is impossible and the planning required to effectively derail yourself into the right gear is futile and a dangerous distraction if you attempt it.
-I think fixed gear or single speed votes should count for hub gear. After all a single speed is simply a hub gear with one gear and shares all the aforementioned advantages of other hub gears.

Adding up Dynocoaster and me (and counting fixie for internal):
derailleur 6 igh 6


Wow, are you always this inhibited?

Hub. I like being able to shift down when I'm stopped. At the speeds I'm going who cares about decreased efficiency or increased weight or whatever? The 20lbs of groceries don't care. Also. I hate cleaning derailleurs. It is the epitome of suckity suck for me.

Now, this here is a compelling argument!

Now, this here is a compelling argument!

Seriously, I think this is one of the big reasons why my mixte with derailleur system sits in the garage, being all pretty. I cannot stand to get the drivetrain dirty and decreasing the prettiness of this bike, and it's too much of a pain to clean off. :lol:

Wow, people are actually passionate about hub gears, they are catching up in this vote.

I know one of my plethora of multiple personalities likes them, but I won't let him vote
...... the other ten vote for DERAILLEUR.

Oh, also, I happily admit to being Satan. :lol:

I like drop bars.
that pretty much forces me to use derailer systems.

I like drop bars.
that pretty much forces me to use derailer systems.

Nope!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Samuelw72/PB220143.jpg

Other ways of mounting also exist (there's a thing that screws into the end of your drop bars, there's a regular bar end shifter, you can mount a bar-end extension on the stem, you could mount it on one of those extra stand-off bars people mount their endless GPSes and speedos on).

Dual drive=1. Sitting on the fence because I like the sensation !
Please register my vote snafu.
Thankyou.

1. Dished wheels built to accommodate derailleurs are weak and difficult to build.


And no shop knows how to build them! Every shop, on the other hand, can build hub gears without a problem.


2. On the topic of repair I would argue that a derailleur cannot be repaired by the average cyclist or in fact anyone at all because they simply aren't capable of working.

Absolutely. People with derailleurs are actually not moving at all. It's ALL A HOAX. "These aren't the derailleurs you're looking for."


3. Also internal hubs allow one to independently tune drivetrain efficiency whereas the efficiency of derailleur setups depend heavily on factors which cannot be optimized.

Very true. Hubs let you tune your efficiency to all sorts of different levels, all of which are less efficient than the standard non-tunable one for derailleurs!


4. Expense: let's face it deraileurs require the entire gear system to be replaced every so often and cassettes aren't cheap. On the other hand IGHs need only have two sprockets replaced which represents a considerable savings.


A bargain! For example: for the cost of one Rohlhoff Speedhub 500/1 XC, you can buy a mere 31 SRAM PG-970 cassettes. After you've exhausted them, you'll be sorry you didn't buy that Speedhub.



5. Fixing flats. I don't know how derailleur equipped bikes got a reputation for being easier to fix flats, but I think it's decidedly easier with an IGH. The tangled web of spring loaded chain that you need to wrestle the wheel away from with a derailleur is a real chore.


Plus quick-release axles are overrated. Give me a good wrench any day.



6. Derailleurs take up more space all along the bike. This means there will be conflict whenever anything else tries to occupy that space like debris being kicked up, your clothing flapping in the breeze, or even just nice smooth aerodynamic air flow.


Plus the derailleur takes up the valuable space I need to install my chain tensioner.

IGH.

It is better at keeping the workings hidden from the curse of grime. They are asthetically pleasing and the lovely sound of ticking pawls in a S-A hub can't be beat.
disraeli gears 8 igh 8 fixed 1

Nope!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Samuelw72/PB220143.jpg

Other ways of mounting also exist (there's a thing that screws into the end of your drop bars, there's a regular bar end shifter, you can mount a bar-end extension on the stem, you could mount it on one of those extra stand-off bars people mount their endless GPSes and speedos on).

I've done that before, and have found it to be impractical.
the shifter simply isn't easy to shift when it's mounted in ways that weren't part of the design.
but the SA shifter does fit on 24mm bars well enough.

DT and barcons are easy to work with, but grip shifters really need that grip beside them.

Internal gear hub for me. Alfine 8 is good.

IMO IGHs will have constantly have wider gear ranges, be lighter, be cheaper—albeit a slow process. Most exciting recent news: Nuvinci, Alfine 11. But derailer technology will always be constant (maybe electronic shifting).

Explaining to people not use large gear front (3rd) with low gear rear (1st), or not to shift while stopped is technologically perfectly logical… but hack-ish. Still, it’s an awesome hack: 3 front and 8 rear sprockets on my beater bike for a huge range. When it fails, just discard and get another beater bike (with cheap derailers). But for the bike I can’t bear to be stolen: IGH.

Derailers encourage the creation of these sorts of tools:

http://img.skitch.com/20100601-81if2kb16g6ph9twju2chj9ux3.preview.jpg (http://skitch.com/shjck5psr4ww/dg8t5/park-tool-website)
Click for full size (http://skitch.com/shjck5psr4ww/dg8t5/park-tool-website) - Uploaded with plasq (http://plasq.com)'s Skitch (http://skitch.com)
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=48&item=DAG-2

Derailer 8 IGH 9 Fixed 1.

I want to get a folder eventually, and trying to decide here is definitely the hardest part. Derailleurs are cheaper, I know how to work on them, and have thumb shifters available. Hubs can actually have the gearing I want with 20" wheels, but I have to pick between not enough gearing range, having a hub with a poor track record, or paying a lot. Derailleurs work fine on normal bikes for me, but not sure what to vote here.

Derailer 8 IGH 9 Fixed 1.

And no shop knows how to build them! Every shop, on the other hand, can build hub gears without a problem.

First off I think it'd be pretty foolish to decide something based on what shops can and can't do. The bike business doesn't pay well enough to attract competent workers.

Second off, anyone that can build a front wheel should have no problem building a wheel with a hub gear and if they can't build a front wheel then they're not gonna be abled to build a dished cassette wheel either (although I have no doubt the idiots at most bike shops would charge a premium for the best hack job they can pass off with a straight face).



Absolutely. People with derailleurs are actually not moving at all. It's ALL A HOAX. "These aren't the derailleurs you're looking for."

It really is. Sad part is you don't see it cause you're a bikey so you have an inability to account for the hundreds of hours you've spent over the years tinkering. Newsflash: bikes are not living beings, so if the word "neglect" is in your biking vocabulary then your **** doesn't work. Your bike is supposed to work for you, not the other way around, remember?



Very true. Hubs let you tune your efficiency to all sorts of different levels, all of which are less efficient than the standard non-tunable one for derailleurs!

I don't think that's true and I don't think you really do either. Come on be honest with yourself, how much time have you really spent tuning up chain line, tension, sprocket selection, etc on your IGH bikes? IMO equipping the biggest sprockets and chainrings you can find is alone enough to get better than derailleur efficiency.



A bargain! For example: for the cost of one Rohlhoff Speedhub 500/1 XC, you can buy a mere 31 SRAM PG-970 cassettes. After you've exhausted them, you'll be sorry you didn't buy that Speedhub.

Rohloff? Shouldn't you be comparing that to Dura Ace or better? SRAM makes hubs too you know and they don't cost anywhere near the price of 31 cassettes (more like 2 or 3...so unless you throw out your bike at the end of every season it pays rather quickly).



Plus quick-release axles are overrated. Give me a good wrench any day.

Indeed. It's much easier to pull one side of the axle out to slip a fresh tube in with a nutted wheel, especially when you don't have those derailleur springs trying to pull the wheel away from you.



Plus the derailleur takes up the valuable space I need to install my chain tensioner.

Blasphemy! The only thing I hate more than a tensioner is a derailleur!

Hub, but only because I live in a flat area. If I needed more range, say I lived or road where there were hills, I would probably be with the derailer crowd. Three speeds are fine when its flat. Old SA's seem to go for ever. I have bikes with both.

I have a R20 with SA 3sp and drop bars... or bull horns in the works.

Do single speeds count? Maybe count with fixed or?
But i vote IGH on folders for sure if i cant vote s/s. They are tidier when folded than Dewhatevers.
Derailer 8 IGH 10

I have lost many of my own teeth :50:, so I want as many teeth as possible on my bikes. Put me down for those derailers. :thumb:

I have a R20 with SA 3sp and drop bars... or bull horns in the works.

Pics when finished. Pwease.

Cthulhu's bike has an Infernal Gear Hub. Just ask Chucky.

For folders, IGH. My folder goes on the train, in the racks, on the luggage shelf, in the back of my car, in the plant room of hotels, all sorts of places where grunts may put the boot into it, and I feel a lot less vulnerable about that with an IGH.

AEO - I find this shifter setup fine, except that I can't see the numbers, and it's hard to remember which way is up, or down! In the medium term, I'll find a bar-end that I can mount on the stem, so that I can have it horizontal, and just below the bars. My point was that although Shimano and other firms don't really make shifters for drop bars, a creative person can find a way to make it work. Space Grip was the word I was looking for, for the little stand-off bars.

I have some infernal hub gears.

Post deleted as requested. sorry about that.....

For folders, IGH. My folder goes on the train, in the racks, on the luggage shelf, in the back of my car, in the plant room of hotels, all sorts of places where grunts may put the boot into it, and I feel a lot less vulnerable about that with an IGH.

AEO - I find this shifter setup fine, except that I can't see the numbers, and it's hard to remember which way is up, or down! In the medium term, I'll find a bar-end that I can mount on the stem, so that I can have it horizontal, and just below the bars. My point was that although Shimano and other firms don't really make shifters for drop bars, a creative person can find a way to make it work. Space Grip was the word I was looking for, for the little stand-off bars.

yeah, I did that before.
and I promptly switched it out for some veloce levers
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa131/AEObikes/folder/Dahon2up02.jpg

I have some infernal hub gears.

Very funny.

i have a 1989 Rudge bifold with 21 "Derailleur" gears. considering they are twnety years old they havent changed much form modern design, which is intresting

i also have and will be selling soon a motorised brompton with a brompton bwr hub.

I vote hub because it leaves me free to ride my bike without thinking of; chain alinment, shifting smothly, easing of pedals to change, changing before i get to the hill.

I'm not sure if it occurred to many of you that, no matter how hilly your riding is, increasing gear range will only help you to a point.

Shifting down makes the wheels turn slower, so once you have a sufficiently low gear the limiting factor going uphill is your ability to balance at low speeds, not gearing. Similarly when going downhill you are limited by your responsibility to maintain a safe speed...and besides which why should you care how the bike is equipped when gravity is doing the work?

So the wide ranges of those 24 speed derailleur setups can't save you from the flames of the infernal hub gears.


My point was that although Shimano and other firms don't really make shifters for drop bars...

http://jtekengineering.com/Images/jtek_bar-end_shifters/jtek_bar-end-6.jpg
Available for nexus 8, nexus 7, or sturmey archer 8. In fact, I just ordered mine this morning.

There is also a firm that makes an alfine brifter, but it costs more than the hub itself.



Disreputables: 10, Hub Contraption: 11 - fixie/dual drive: 2 - I don't got no clue: 1

Good lord, now fixies and dual drives are getting grouped together? What combination could be more different? On the one hand you have the epitome of the "learn to use what works without any attention" IGH philosophy and on the other you have the epitome of the "everything but the kitchen sink complexity that only needs to last until the end of the ride" derailleur philosophy.

Pluses and minuses to either system. If I were rich, I'd vote for IGH, but I'm not so I vote Capreo FTW!

Chucky said:

"I'm not sure if it occurred to many of you that,"

" Sad part is you don't see it "

"Obviously all of you who voted derailleur are a bunch of ignorant ninnies "

Would you mind not continuing to be patronising and abusive for the rest of this thread, please? You've already cemented your previous reputation for crass abuse twice in this thread, and your lack of manners multiple other times on this forum and it really isn't needed. If you can't debate constructively without criticism, just shut up. Users don't need the crap or a tirade of belittling and psychotic vents from you everytime you disagree with someone. Which is most of the time.

Nor do you need to continue to dominate this discussion with your opinions. You've had your say.

+1

Chucky said:

"I'm not sure if it occurred to many of you that,"

" Sad part is you don't see it "

"Obviously all of you who voted derailleur are a bunch of ignorant ninnies "

Would you mind not continuing to be patronising and abusive for the rest of this thread, please? You've already cemented your previous reputation for abuse twice in this thread, and multiple other times on this forum and it really isn't needed. If you can't debate constructively without criticism, just shut up. Users don't need the crap or a tirade of belittling venting from you everytime you disagree with someone. Which is most of the time.

Nor do you need to continue to dominate this discussion with your opinions. You've had your say. You want to argue, PM me.

Look I'm sure everyone here is an outstanding human being well deserving of a never ending stream of hugs, kisses, and other pleasantries, but I had no idea you were all so sensitive. Please accept my sincerest apologies for mistaking your apparently very serious accusations of satan worship for the jovial fun of an exaggerated debate.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to retire to satan's chariot so I can study the pinnacle of unpatronizing, constructive debate in the writings of master snafu.

My vote:

IGH, because IGH's are English, and derailleurs suck.



A few points, not to be confused with arguing or bickering:

Chucky, IGH wheels too have to be dished, though not to such extremes as derailleur wheels.

Snafu, "dérailleur" is a French word, and though it may be used without restriction when writing in French, it must be italicized when used in written English. (Thank goodness we are not speaking French here, since you I assure you you don't even want to think about pronouncing it). In English it is properly spelled "derailleur", keeping its etymology transparent in the English tradition.

according to my measurements, my SA3 requires a dish of about 2mm difference between left and right side spokes. which, incidentally, is the same for derailer freehubs.

I prefer to just write it out as 'derailer', a properly english word :innocent:

time for a group hug
includes you chucky if you want or not

I am just pointing out that with "Dual drive", the two systems are married together. This approach was good enough to stop the English civl war called the war of the Roses. However it did result in Henry the eight. Not sure if he biked much.

Would you mind not continuing to be patronising and abusive for the rest of this thread, please? You've already cemented your previous reputation for crass abuse twice in this thread, and your lack of manners multiple other times on this forum and it really isn't needed. If you can't debate constructively without criticism, just shut up. Users don't need the crap or a tirade of belittling and psychotic vents from you everytime you disagree with someone. Which is most of the time.

[whoosh]

Re-read Chucky's posting. He wasn't being entirely serious. It was a funny posting, and unfortunate that you took it as real.