"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - SRM Software

What software do you use with your SRM? What do you like best and what do you wish the software would do that it doesn't do?

I am the technical brains behind a particular cyclist (ie, I keep the computers working) and could use some input to figure out which software would work best. We are Mac people, but Parallels is an option if needed.

(ie, I keep the computers working)

huh boy, and the motor running

I've got a mac.

I don't have an SRM.

I use golden cheetah with my quarq. It works "well enough" for analyzing my rides/figuring out threshold/performance manager.

It's supposed to be able to read in files from the power control 7 (SRM) just fine, both the golden cheetah and srm people say that.

http://goldencheetah.org/

Without getting involved in this thread, which will unquestionably be over my head....I think part of the question is what's the gold standard for software (which undoubtedly won't work on mac) and what makes it functionally better than anything else out there. Is there anything for a mac platform that approaches that? And, sub question, since I'm clearly an idiot (though isadorah isn't), what do I really need? That is to say, are there bells and whistles that are easy to go without? Since I've been having pretty good success just doing what I do. Someone will be looking at my data though, so keeping that in mind, what might someone want to see as far an analysis.

ok. I'm out of here. good luck.

WKO+ is the standard

Gold Standard: WKO+, but runs on Windows only.

GC now has MOST of the features that make WKO+ the gold standard. It's easily a 90% solution, and it runs on your mac, and it's free.

Should have bought a PC... You would have had enough $$ left over to buy WKO+ and still came out ahead :)

what does WKO+ do that others don't?

The concern with golden cheetah is I only have a powermeter on one bike. I do a lot of of other stuff, and if she read correctly there's no manual data entry for GC.

this http://www.physfarm.com/inside/raceday.html runs on a mac and has all the performance metrics and predictors that WKO+ has. I tried it on a free trial basis being a mac guy and got confused because the terminology is different that WKO+, which is what the majority of people use. therefore, i became confused. phil skiba is the guy who did all the math and what not in developing he metrics for the software, if you call physfarm, you talk to phil, which is kind of cool. but, i gave in, bought in inexpensive laptop and got WKO+.



golden cheetah is free and runs on a mac. i tried it for a while too. i didnt find it any more useful than the poweragent software that comes on a powertap. so, see above re wko+

what does WKO+ do that others don't?

The concern with golden cheetah is I only have a powermeter on one bike. I do a lot of of other stuff, and if she read correctly there's no manual data entry for GC.

performance manager chart. it calculates 3 metrics that i've been using to govern my training, these are acute training load (atl), chronic training load (ctl) and training stress balance (tsb). i dont use 90% of the other things wko+ does, but I watch these closely to monitor both macro and micro training cycles and to balance the difference between being fit/fresh/tired/etc. on race day.

manual entry?

http://www.astro.ufl.edu/~ken/manual_entry.png

^when i was dabbling with GC, i would see the xPower, which i understand to be a concept similar to normalized power, but RI, bikescore were always 0 and i've never seen the daniels points or aerobic decoupling (whatever that stuff is).

what does WKO+ do that others don't?

The concern with golden cheetah is I only have a powermeter on one bike. I do a lot of of other stuff, and if she read correctly there's no manual data entry for GC.

yes, from what i read, you cannot enter anything in manually with GC. My understanding is the same goes for Raceday. I was thinking we should go with Raceday for the SRM and then combine it with some other program to track the non-SRM activity. That seems complex and convoluted though, so am trying to figure out if we're better off getting parallels and using a PC based program, but can't find enough info to determine which PC based program is the best option. One of the musts is to be able to enter workouts/activity in manually as well as retrieve the data from the SRM.

Performance Manager?

http://www.astro.ufl.edu/~ken/performance_manager.png

note: SB="training stress balance", LTS = "long term stress" (CTL?), and STS = "short term stress" (ATL?)

The period for calculating those is all configurable.

manual entry?

http://www.astro.ufl.edu/~ken/manual_entry.png


are you able to enter non-cycling workouts manually as well or does it only calculate ride data?

Manual entry was the first thing I contributed to GC- my powertap wheel is broken too often for me to go without that.

If/when I get time, or someone else does, the manual entry will estimate BikeScore using TRIMP if there is HR data, rather than a simple linear equation based on distance/time.

Performance Manager was the second thing. With those two it's a decent WKO replacement, at least for my useage.

V1.4 should be out soon. It's got a lot of cool stuff, some of which WKO does not have (i.e. mapping if you have GPS data). The developer builds are pretty stable, and if you don't want to build it yourself you can search the mailing list and look for where people have posted binaries for your platform.

cycling only. I'm not sure that WKO can handle non-cycling workouts either, though. I think PhysFarm can handle other stuff because it's for "try" athletes (i.e. can handle swimming/running as well).

You can add in any activity but if the distance or time are zero then there won't be a BikeScore estimate (which is based on the previous 30 day's power files, so it's for riding). BS =~ TSS so if you have a way to estimate TSS you can use that.

Manual entry was the first thing I contributed to GC- my powertap wheel is broken too often for me to go without that.

If/when I get time, or someone else does, the manual entry will estimate BikeScore using TRIMP if there is HR data, rather than a simple linear equation based on distance/time.

Performance Manager was the second thing. With those two it's a decent WKO replacement, at least for my useage.

V1.4 should be out soon. It's got a lot of cool stuff, some of which WKO does not have (i.e. mapping if you have GPS data). The developer builds are pretty stable, and if you don't want to build it yourself you can search the mailing list and look for where people have posted binaries for your platform.

I didn't realize you're the guy who did the performance manager. Thank you, it's awesome and helped me plan and execute a podium finish at the state TT. I owe you a six pack of your choice.

Performance Manager?


note: SB="training stress balance", LTS = "long term stress" (CTL?), and STS = "short term stress" (ATL?)

The period for calculating those is all configurable.

yes. and the names are configureable too, if you like CTL and ATL instead of LTS and STS. I used those because CTL and ATL are trademarked, they are based on TSS instead of BikeScore, which is close but not identical, and because I can never remember if chronic is short or long.

I didn't realize you're the guy who did the performance manager. Thank you, it's awesome and helped me plan and execute a podium finish at the state TT. I owe you a six pack of your choice.

Cool! Knowing that something i wrote helped someone is all the payment I need... that'll make me happy all day.

Also: GoldenCheetah doesn't lock your data into a proprietary format. I can go to my "~/Library/GoldenCheetah/ken" directory and copy all the TCX files to another place.

Daniels Points is another formula for calculating TSS. BikeScore is Phil Skiba's formula for calculating TSS. xPower is basically normalized power. Aerobic Decoupling is supposedly based on Joe Friel's Aerobic Decoupling work, but in my experience it seems to be mostly bullpucky.

Cool! Knowing that something i wrote helped someone is all the payment I need... that'll make me happy all day.

That's awesome.

^when i was dabbling with GC, i would see the xPower, which i understand to be a concept similar to normalized power, but RI, bikescore were always 0 and i've never seen the daniels points or aerobic decoupling (whatever that stuff is).

Bikescore of 0 would be a bug of some sort. Especially if there was xpower, which means that GC sees the power data. You might try a newer release.

Gold Standard: WKO+, but runs on Windows only.

GC now has MOST of the features that make WKO+ the gold standard. It's easily a 90% solution, and it runs on your mac, and it's free.

I've got WKO+ running under wine in Ubuntu

edit: for full disclosure I download data from my ptap using gc. Some might call this a bastardization. don't care

Performance Manager?

http://www.astro.ufl.edu/~ken/performance_manager.png

note: SB="training stress balance", LTS = "long term stress" (CTL?), and STS = "short term stress" (ATL?)

The period for calculating those is all configurable.

couple of things: a 400+ TSS day? did you go into a coma later?

2) for the developers, I think MY own personal BS/day might be off the charts

You can add in any activity but if the distance or time are zero then there won't be a BikeScore estimate (which is based on the previous 30 day's power files, so it's for riding). BS =~ TSS so if you have a way to estimate TSS you can use that.

so if you are able to calculate the TSS for a workout, you could enter that number in the BikeScore line, possibly leaving the distance or time fields blank and it would be able to calculate/handle non-cycling workouts?

Bikescore of 0 would be a bug of some sort. Especially if there was xpower, which means that GC sees the power data. You might try a newer release.

thanks. most likely some type of "user error". those are common when i'm the "user".

so if you are able to calculate the TSS for a workout, you could enter that number in the BikeScore line, possibly leaving the distance or time fields blank and it would be able to calculate/handle non-cycling workouts?

Yep. It'll just use what you put in. The BikeScore number displayed when you fill in distance or time is an estimate based on your power files from the last 30 days; you can override it. The 30 days is configurable. WKO has a similar manual entry although it doesn't estimate your TSS for you (at least with 2.2). WKO let you put in workout type; GC doesn't.


I've had a number of 400+ TSS days. It takes me at least 6-7 hours and a lot of climbing to hit that.

This conversation is the reason I don't have a pm. We just talked about some of this stuff at breakfast and I'm pretty sure I'm going to cancel the order and just go about business as usual. Not sure I see the upside to making things this complicated. It's like you all are talking another language to me.

This conversation is the reason I don't have a pm. We just talked about some of this stuff at breakfast and I'm pretty sure I'm going to cancel the order and just go about business as usual. Not sure I see the upside to making things this complicated. It's like you all are talking another language to me.

BF heresy.

On a more practical level, do you have a coach? Even if you're not into the data, a coach might be / should be.

Yes (my kid's new catch phrase). The issue seems to be how to get what relevant data we "need"(meaning what isadorah is going to cull from the srm, and other workouts-- for instance the hardest thing I'll likely do each week is race on the track meaning no data) and send. What does she need? What us relevant? Important?

Dude, just play with it for a bit and learn the terminology. You're a smart guy and there's no reason for you to eschew the weird words when they will reap you good benefits in the short and more importantly, long term.

are you drinking again?

Dude, just play with it for a bit and learn the terminology. You're a smart guy and there's no reason for you to eschew the weird words when they will reap you good benefits in the short and more importantly, long term.

Useful is:

You need a software package that allows you to track _________, ______________, and _______________. Of the options available for mac these work: ________________ and _________________.

It's also helpful to be able to do __________________. But only WKO+ does that.

or

In order to track these parameters ______________, _________________ and ___________________. To do that on a mac you need to run two pieces of software ______________ and ____________. For the same money you can run WKO+ on emulation software.

Or even:

I don't know anything about mac software but I use ___________ on windows and I like it because it allows me to track these things: ______________, _______________, and _________________.


'Just do it' is for Lance Armstrong Nike commercials. Two things, and an attitude so mired in cliche as to be useless.

Hey gsteinb,

If you have been using a HRM to train, an easy first step would be to continue your training plan, but using Power zones rather than HR zones. That would give you the chance to get familiar with the equipment and the lingo. Since you can simultaneously see your HR, you'll be surprised to see how much more variable it is, compared to power.

That's how I did the transition.
It's heresy to say this here, but I don't think the WKO+ is essential to get the benefits from a PM. You know the principles, you would be using a much better metric to keep track of your progress.

Sorry for the intrusion.

no intrusion. thanks

FTP (functional threshold power) is your average power for an all out 1 hour TT. It's a measure of your aerobic power. Everything else is based on FTP- 100 TSS points is the amount of stress you'd accumulate doing that 1 hr TT. (BikeScore is GoldenCheetah's TSS, consider it to be the same). Since you can measure stress you can now see what effect that has on you. For me the most important thing is seeing when I am working too hard and accumulating too much stress. I tend to just keep riding when its better that I rest. The other values (LTS, STS, SB) are ways of seeing how the stress level is changing.


I highly recommend the Coggan and Allen Training and Racing with a Power Meter book. It's got all this stuff in it and a lot more. My normal recommendation is to read the book before you get the PM. If you finish it excited about the stuff you can do with a PM, go buy one. If you get bored and put it down, then don't bother with the PM. A certain amount of understanding and geeking out over data is needed to get much out of the PM. If you're not willing to do that then it's just a very expensive bike computer. There
is nothing wrong with that, not everyone is a data dweeb with an interest in exercise physiology. And being one isn't required to be fast or to enjoy riding. Some of the guys I ride with won't even use a bike computer or HRM and they're faster than I am.

this might come as a surprise, but I think you might be making the right decision in not going down the power route. I think powermeters are great, provided that you go "all in" and use them as a primary training tool. same with the software. I use it with religious devotion and it has helped me immensely in the short time I have been using it.

However, you clearly already have a program for success that shows clear and definite results.

I think there are many ways to become successful at something. Some trombonists did this by method books and teachers. I did it by years of ear playing, improvisation and doing every gig I could.

However, you clearly already have a program for success that shows clear and definite results.


if i am not mistaken, the idea is to use the powermeter to develop a training program for him to come back from the recent battle with the pavement.

Well also there are guys faster than me who swear by them, so there's that too. So beyond the immediate need there is a viable long term use.

ok then...

my personal preference, in simple terms:

I don't like PC (I am also a mac person) but I have a 10 year old one running WKO (and nothing else) because:

it's the best for helping track the training loads I put on myself, and the rest periods I mix in, and (hopefully) helps with planning peaks and avoiding overtraining.

it is also very good for analyzing critical power levels for efforts of 5 minutes, or 20 minutes, or one hour (all of which matter to me a lot)

if you get the SRM, it's nice to have the SRM software as well, so you might consider parallels for that purpose too.

I have also used Golden Cheetah and PowerAgent. WKO is better. Enough better that it was worth dealing with my old pc again. of course you could just buy an old pc like mine for the purpose, but parallels/vmware/whatever should work.

edit: have also tried raceday as well. WKO better

I think the performance manager is the best part of the equation as you can track your training status so to speak. This is what makes WKO+ awesome.

Golden Cheetah, from what I've seen, has pretty much all the same metrics, except that they're called different things. As long as you just 'convert' the terminology, you'll know what you, and everyone else, are talking about.

CTL, TSB, and ATL are helpful. I don't know the acronyms for the GC stuff, but as Kensuf pointed out, their version of the performance manager works for peaking and such.

Read some stuff on phys farm's website and blog. You can figure it out.

Truth be told, if you really do want to get the most out of it, I don't understand why it's an issue to deal with windows just for your data. You're not doing anything else with it, and wko+ is the gold standard for a reason. A reason that's worth dealing with windows for.

Truth be told, if you really do want to get the most out of it, I don't understand why it's an issue to deal with windows just for your data. You're not doing anything else with it, and wko+ is the gold standard for a reason. A reason that's worth dealing with windows for.

Running Windows isn't the issue, we can easily put parallels onto the computer. The hang-up seems to be not being able to input non-cycling workouts. For those that use wko+ how do you track/address your non-cycling activities?

I use a combination of WKO+ and Training Peaks (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/). I'm into data and these provide every form of metric. (and they tell me I suck at this sport)

These were the two programs that were recommended by a coach (www.incline-training.com/documents/cv.pdf) and friend. He has collaborated with Friel and has been both a director sportif and a cat 1 racer for over 13 years.

Sorry i should have stipulated that Training Peaks is great for non cycling related activities.

Running Windows isn't the issue, we can easily put parallels onto the computer. The hang-up seems to be not being able to input non-cycling workouts. For those that use wko+ how do you track/address your non-cycling activities?

You could easily put in the non cycling workout as the cycling equivalent perhaps?

Trainingpeaks tracks everything methinks.

Running Windows isn't the issue, we can easily put parallels onto the computer.

Wow. It's like I don't even know you.

For those that use wko+ how do you track/address your non-cycling activities?

WKO lets you enter manual workouts for a variety of sports, if you're tracking training load you can input it as a bike workout and estimate the equivalent bike workout. I do that in the winter when I cross country ski.


http://www.bikeforums.net/../images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by isadorah http://www.bikeforums.net/../images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bikeforums.net/../showthread.php?p=10919550#post10919550)
Running Windows isn't the issue, we can easily put parallels onto the computer.

Wow. It's like I don't even know you.

Don't start with her. I'll come over and punch you in the shoulder.

:lol:

Then I'd get to buy you dinner