Living Car Free - Looking for A Real Alternative To The Public Alternative

I am fed up with anything that has "public" in it's title (public libraries, public transit, public schools-public anything that shares space or products with others). I am always looking for other either inexpensive or even expensive alternatives to public services. Now I am really looking for these alternatives. Do I consider going back to driving-even car ownership-full time like before? Or is there something that can fill the need to transport possessions (animals, packages) near or far that my bikes cannot or even expected to do?

I already still use the library-more limited now than before. I order the books I would like to read. Then I have them sent to the closest branch near me. I run in, get books, check them out and stay free of the hassles of being around potential trouble public places seem to attract around here now. Now the bus/train fare is going up. I do use my bikes almost exclusively for many years after I stopped working or going to school. So.....instead of supporting a system that is sometimes hostile to people and makes them too dependent (excluding people who are disabled temporary or permanently and I am no longer fall under that label), I think I want to go private again. And I don't like to entrust my life or well being even to "bus drivers" or "train operators." I want to come and go with no more feelings of "getting permission from mommy or daddy" when I board or otherwise is about to use these "services." Besides the feeling of getting less for my fare now with the cutbacks and even elimination of service that is coming here in July.

http://www.calendarlive.com/bal-md.cm.mta29mar29,0,4101816.story (http://www.calendarlive.com/bal-md.cm.mta29mar29,0,4101816.story)

"....That strategy runs counter to a national trend of fare increases as transit systems face mounting costs and recession-related declines in tax revenues. According to an American Public Transit Association study last year, almost 90 percent of large transit agencies have been forced to raise fares or cut service in recent years. With continuing revenue shortfalls, it is likely that number has only increased....Wells said transit can't be judged in terms of profits and losses. "People who don't have kids pay taxes for the school system. It's the same with transit," he said. "Transit is a public service....." (I do not mind paying for something I personally chose not to use, I just want choices and options away from that option , I just want choices and options away from that option that does not work for me).

I don't know...you kinda sound like an old curmudgeon who doesn't like to be around other people. That's cool, but I don't get whether you're almost making a political statement out of it?

Public transit has always been poor (service-wise as well as an serious option) around here. We in Southern California are orientated to the private owned vehicle as long as I can remember. I just don't feel safe or supported in an area that I am forced to live for financial reasons. As with this computer I am typing on right now, I rather use my own and go my own way without fighting over declining public services-like enough bad experiences with public computer services-especially libraries-which pushed me to the idea to buy my own computer and Internet access. Hence no more problems with Social Darwinism. I am quite willing to pay taxes for other people to use public services (i.e. public schools) that I choose not to use anymore, but I want more choices now for myself. As with placing children in private school or home school them, I simply want to go my own way from now on and not be treated so shabbily by the public trust. I am not responsible for the current mess-if anything I simply inherent it from the previous generation-so I will continue to look for alternatives to move out of the box.

I realize this "sounds" not very nice or ladylike. But my own few possession (like this computer) do give me independence from other's whims and moods that I don't want to deal with anymore. I think that is what I am looking for now. My bikes serve this purpose for transportation too except that sometimes (not always or even very often) I seem to need a private 4 wheel vehicle at the moment. I have been exploring online shopping and it seems to work well for the packages-except no bargain shopping anymore although I could live with that. But I need something else entirely for when my physical body must be at a place (dentist office). I want to not be transit dependent anymore. I think there will be transit strikes in the future if these cutbacks occur. And that is the critical key of sliding into being too dependent on other's good wishes or whims.

It's probably just a California thing--living in a state that has been badly misgoverned for a long time now. People generally get the government they deserve, IMO.

It's your choice--work for improvement, move someplace better, or drop out of society.

Or stay and move beyond dependence-you can run, but you cannot hide my father would play that game with me when I was a child. As an adult, he encouraged me to buy my present bike (and he ultimately bought 2 of them with his own money) during our 2003 strike. Here are some more recent examples from near and far:

http://thecityfix.com/bus-strikes-paralyze-bogota-%E2%80%93-and-show-transit%E2%80%99s-importance/ (http://thecityfix.com/bus-strikes-paralyze-bogota-%E2%80%93-and-show-transit%E2%80%99s-importance/)

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/NxGrjPmzUYg/Transit+Strike+Shuts+Down+Buses+Subways+Philadelphia (http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/NxGrjPmzUYg/Transit+Strike+Shuts+Down+Buses+Subways+Philadelphia)

And Even Into History:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/14/a-short-history-of-recent-american-transit-strikes/ (http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/14/a-short-history-of-recent-american-transit-strikes/)

The point here is I now admit to all that I lapsed into contentment for the last several years. I see the need for change before anything happens-and history shows it does from time to time-and change at that time would prove to be very difficult indeed.

If you don't like public, its probably wisest to avoid the public streets. ;)

It's probably just a California thing--living in a state that has been badly misgoverned for a long time now. People generally get the government they deserve, IMO.

At one time I might have agreed, but there are many things happening that shift the results from what people wanted to happen.

California has been getting battered for a while. Just look how Enron scr*wed California. And from what I read, Ahnold paid Enron a friendly visit, just before declaring his candidacy.

I love libraries, but if you don't, you might try bookmooch (http://bookmooch.com/).

For longer commutes I use a motor kit on one of my bicycles. I would recommend a four stroke motor instead of a two stroke because it won't smell bad, which means you can keep it inside your home.

A motorized bicycle can take you much farther than a pedal bicycle and faster (racers excluded). In most states there is a limit of no more than 50 ccs and 2 horsepower. Some states have an even smaller maximum motor size. The maximum speed is limited in some states to 30 mph or 20 mph. If your kit isn't loud and you aren't speeding it is most likely that you will never be stopped by a cop.

A motorized bicycle won't give you more storage space but it will allow you to travel farther without perspiring. It could allow you to carry more things in your panniers or front basket. That just might be enough to satisfy your needs without buying a car.

I've seen motor kits mounted on Dahon folding bicycles. Some of them don't interfere with the folding at all. They do weigh another twelve to sixteen pounds. That's a lot less weight than a car or small motor scooter.

PM me and I'll tell you what I know and perhaps steer you in the right direction.

The U.S. has some of the best public libraries in the world. I believe the system was started by that evil socialist, Benjamin Franklin.

fanatic, you want to divorce yourself from public services, by all means, do so. You state that you are "no longer" in the category of temp or perm disabled -- where are you in regard to fitness and/or physical capability? If cargo transport is an issue (seem to read that in your OP), are you capable of hauling with a bike trailer?

I have little use presently for the public library; not that they are substandard, I just don't have need for what they provide right now. Public transit sees me when the weather is too crappy for the bike ride (I'm talking ice/deep snow). Private schooling is financially out of the question.

If you are able to pay for what you want, go for it. If you are looking for cheaper private alternatives, Google will serve you better than BF.

Libraries although maybe not named public libraries but libraries came far far before Benjamin Franklin.
The credit is given to the Europeans (historically)--but there are many historians that refute this idea. We like to think the world began in America. :) It didn't.

Since the papryus (paper) and the alphabet --came from the Sumerians--probably modern day Lebanon perhaps Iraq--o never mind--

I was a public librarian. Uh, I was quite great at it. The heavy upper management always kills the good of public services. Always. The rules, the cronyism, the favoritism you know people.

Private is essentially no better because the essential component remains the same: HUMANS. :)

All the best in your anti-public mantra--I would be curious as to how you will avoid roads and will you leave your home ever?

The U.S. has some of the best public libraries in the world. I believe the system was started by that evil socialist, Benjamin Franklin.

And heavily subsidized by that old time capitalist money grabber Andrew Carnagie. Sounds as if the OP should seek the aid of a private medical group.

Libraries although maybe not named public libraries but libraries came far far before Benjamin Franklin.

Franklin may or may not have established the first public "lending" library.

I write many of my BF posts on a library computer. My little grandson asked me why I'm "against technology" since I have no car, computer, video game system, or cable TV in my home. (Smart kid!) I told him I'm not against technology, I'm just a cheapskate. Why pay for something again that I already paid for with my taxes?

But OP, I understand your beef about buses. Even though we have an outstanding bus system, I like the freedom and self-reliance of using my bike and walking most of the time. Not paying the bus fare also appeals to my cheapness!

Hmm, I dont own a television either. I understand the OP's angst. I support hybrid economic systems. Government and private. I am not a devout cheerleader for either nor do I think one is less evil than the other. Humans are involved so--its bound to be screwed up, fail, or generally not be dependable. What I hate about government: STOP PAYING FOR THINGS THAT HAVE A LIMITED LONGEVITY. In other words, they know they cannot pay forever for gym memberships for employees so why begin? They know this free and reduced lunch model in public schools is not profitable: why do it? Why take the responsibility to feed away from parents. Transportation: why are busses picking children up that live two miles away from theirhome? Because the government thinks if they do not pick the child up the irresponsible parent will not bring the child to school. SO it is best to err on the side of caution and just eat the cost. I disagree. If you are too lazy to transport your child and provide food that is your problem. But in America--we do not want to see hungry uneducated children begging on the streets.

If you don't like public, its probably wisest to avoid the public streets. ;)

Not public streets itself as they don't cause the problems I have been facing. It is the people using the public products I appear to have some problems with.


I love libraries, but if you don't, you might try bookmooch (http://bookmooch.com/).

The public libraries, like the public parks, no longer are safe enough-I am now speaking about my local ones-for longterm use like browsing or relaxing with a good book. I do miss using them, but that is the new reality and I now avoid them as much as possible. Too much trouble.


For longer commutes I use a motor kit on one of my bicycles. I would recommend a four stroke motor instead of a two stroke because it won't smell bad, which means you can keep it inside your home.

A motorized bicycle can take you much farther than a pedal bicycle and faster (racers excluded). In most states there is a limit of no more than 50 ccs and 2 horsepower. Some states have an even smaller maximum motor size. The maximum speed is limited in some states to 30 mph or 20 mph. If your kit isn't loud and you aren't speeding it is most likely that you will never be stopped by a cop.

A motorized bicycle won't give you more storage space but it will allow you to travel farther without perspiring. It could allow you to carry more things in your panniers or front basket. That just might be enough to satisfy your needs without buying a car.

I've seen motor kits mounted on Dahon folding bicycles. Some of them don't interfere with the folding at all. They do weigh another twelve to sixteen pounds. That's a lot less weight than a car or small motor scooter.

PM me and I'll tell you what I know and perhaps steer you in the right direction.

Thank you very much. That is the direction I think I should be going as Southern California, even around any given city here, is very, very vast and spread out unlike Amsterdam, New York City, or Boston (many people are not aware of this as this a global forum). I am thinking along the lines of possibly a street legal golf cart like a Gem Car and the like-perhaps a compromise from a bike to motor car. Just enough for going more than say, five or so miles with bulky packages (like the box fan I bought yesterday). It would go around 25 miles an hour so I would not take valuable space from a car on the streets (I feel like I do with the bikes) and keep up with most urban and suburban traffic speed.



fanatic, you want to divorce yourself from public services, by all means, do so. You state that you are "no longer" in the category of temp or perm disabled -- where are you in regard to fitness and/or physical capability? If cargo transport is an issue (seem to read that in your OP), are you capable of hauling with a bike trailer?

I was temporary disabled due to my illness suffered earlier this year. I was off my bikes for over a month until I was given a green light to resume riding again by my medical practitioner. I felt that I really gave public transit exclusive use during that period-and found it lacking and did not work out well for me. Around here, there is some hostility toward people who takes a package larger than what can be contained in his/her lap, taking the dog or cat to the vet, or otherwise gain the ire of the almighty bus driver or even the fellow passengers if something is amiss. So even before this, I did avoid using public transit as much as possible and either walked or use one of the bikes. I want to start preparing for the times that my bikes cannot serve me as well as some other form of transit. Or another public transit strike should come again, I want to be able to take not only myself, but other people (my elderly mother, her friends, and others likewise not as fortunate as I) who are transit dependent to wherever they need to to without losing their dignity. Or being stranded somewhere.

Here is a good example of what is going on in the public transit world here in Los Angeles:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-blue-line-20100609,0,591969.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-blue-line-20100609,0,591969.story)
Public Transport around here is either became a show for politicians or wannabes (and they would not be caught dead on one after the photo op is over), a means to leverage money or spotlight on non related issues by service strikes, or simply infrequent heavily cutback bad service.

Forgive me, but I am getting too old to be treated like a side show freak, a potential criminal target, mistreated by the police, or what not as being out there in public seems to do nowadays. Most stories I heard or read about using public transit here end with....I grew tired of this mess and bought a car. I think there might be another option(s) for me besides becoming a private car owner again. I am willing to wait a bit and think about my options before wasting more time or money.


I have little use presently for the public library; not that they are substandard, I just don't have need for what they provide right now. Public transit sees me when the weather is too crappy for the bike ride (I'm talking ice/deep snow). Private schooling is financially out of the question. If you are able to pay for what you want, go for it. If you are looking for cheaper private alternatives, Google will serve you better than BF.

I am very lucky here as there is no snow or ice where I live (that is why I am staying). There are other ways to get schooling that is private, like Home Schooling or even Un-schooling. Public schooling means not necessary being a good choice for everyone at all periods of life. It seemed to become a dumping ground for the human refuse that private schools deem too far gone in some cases (I have seen that one many times when I was teaching lower grades public school). I will go out into the Internet and learn more about the options available to me (and not give up on my bikes).


Libraries although maybe not named public libraries but libraries came far far before Benjamin Franklin.
The credit is given to the Europeans (historically)--but there are many historians that refute this idea. We like to think the world began in America. :) It didn't.

Since the papryus (paper) and the alphabet --came from the Sumerians--probably modern day Lebanon perhaps Iraq--o never mind--

I was a public librarian. Uh, I was quite great at it. The heavy upper management always kills the good of public services. Always. The rules, the cronyism, the favoritism you know people.

Private is essentially no better because the essential component remains the same: HUMANS. :)

All the best in your anti-public mantra--I would be curious as to how you will avoid roads and will you leave your home ever?

There are no private roads near my home so I do need to use public streets most of the time. I was thinking on the lines of the downside of public transit. That I don't want to be packed in a sardine can at rush hours trying to dodge trouble. Not the streets themselves. I can avoid the potholes mostly.

I And I don't like to entrust my life or well being even to "bus drivers" or "train operators."

Still statistically you have a better chance of survival on the bus or train. I personally don't like to entrust my life to a raft of SUV drivers, but I do this every day as I ride my bike.

What about a car sharing program, or occasional car rental when you feel you need a larger vehicle?

[QUOTE=folder fanatic;10936365 According to an American Public Transit Association study last year, almost 90 percent of large transit agencies have been forced to raise fares or cut service in recent years. With continuing revenue shortfalls, it is likely that number has only increased.[/QUOTE]

I think we discussed this before in that the recession forced cities to balance their books on the transit rider. Even when gas taxes were going through the roof, cities still guted transit money to pay for the extra amount spent on gas for their police and fire vehicles.

Having said all this, I still consider transit a bargin and purchase monthly passes and group tickets to ssave even more money. I belong to a "Transit Check" system where I can pay for my tickets using pre-tax dollars.

By the way, there is no less expensive alternative other than an electric or gas powered bicycle. The motorcar makes transit look cheap. Each time you turn the engine on, you'll spend over 5 dollars just in gas and wear and tear on the vehicle.

Folder, there are plenty of small communities within 60 miles of you in any direction that are self contained and have little if any need for public transportation. With the new online books and things like Kindal or IPad, or whatever and E books there is little or no need to visit a public library. There is home delivery from most places when you have something you need delivered. Not that I recommend it but I know people that live out by Palmdale and Lancaster that haven't had to deal with public anything for years. Landers, Hisperia, and Apple Valley all come to mind. I haven't been on a Public Bus for 25 years and I have lived in the OC, Inland Empire and Parts of LA and San Diego county. Though I did ride the tram in San Diego when I was there.

Libraries although maybe not named public libraries but libraries came far far before Benjamin Franklin. The credit is given to the Europeans (historically)--but there are many historians that refute this idea.

Since the papryus (paper) and the alphabet --came from the Sumerians--probably modern day Lebanon perhaps Iraq--o never mind

I think that the Library at Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria)in Egypt about 300 BC is generally given credit for being the first. I love how they would impound any books found on board ships coming through customs until they had a chance to copy them. Like as a sailor you'd have a chance to wait around till they worked it through their backlog. Yeah right.

Ooops, I'm wrong, other sources say it is the Library_of_Ashurbanipal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Ashurbanipal) in Nineveh, Assyria, 7th Century BC. So BadBoy, you were right, Iraq it is.

Why the anti-social attitudes? Irrational fear of the public, the other? If you want to name an ailment afflicting America, that's it. We're so insecure we fear anyone not exactly like us... and eventually we'll start to fear anyone not us.

If you look at everything outside your own little world with such fear and (apparently) revulsion, you are in for a lonely life filled with perpetual dissatisfaction. Human beings are social creatures. Human beings are essentially socialist by nature. You may need to look up the word socialist.... it's ok.

I would suggest riding your bike on public streets to the nearest public library or community center. Perhaps you could attend a community (that would be public) social event to help dispel your fear of people.

Good luck!

What about a car sharing program, or occasional car rental when you feel you need a larger vehicle?

I have rented cars in the past from Enterprise and the rest. It does work well unless there is a run on the cars (i.e. public transit strikes). Then it is next to impossible to locate one-even a large truck. It seems that many people seem to mirror me in my lifestyle around here.


Folder, there are plenty of small communities within 60 miles of you in any direction that are self contained and have little if any need for public transportation. With the new online books and things like Kindal or IPad, or whatever and E books there is little or no need to visit a public library. There is home delivery from most places when you have something you need delivered. Not that I recommend it but I know people that live out by Palmdale and Lancaster that haven't had to deal with public anything for years. Landers, Hisperia, and Apple Valley all come to mind. I haven't been on a Public Bus for 25 years and I have lived in the OC, Inland Empire and Parts of LA and San Diego county. Though I did ride the tram in San Diego when I was there.

I have been looking into these communities to retire in when I am ready. But I cannot retire just yet-not quite old enough it seems. Or sell the house for a decent price as the economy is not picking up like it should have. In the meantime, I have been learning to use my computer more and more for the activities you describe above. I now use my local library as a mail order pick up for books when I would like to read a good one. I just miss going to one, browsing, relaxing in a quiet place, and not be bothered. I am at the point to let that idea die with the past. And public transit seems to be next.


Why the anti-social attitudes? Irrational fear of the public, the other? If you want to name an ailment afflicting America, that's it. We're so insecure we fear anyone not exactly like us... and eventually we'll start to fear anyone not us.

If you look at everything outside your own little world with such fear and (apparently) revulsion, you are in for a lonely life filled with perpetual dissatisfaction. Human beings are social creatures. Human beings are essentially socialist by nature. You may need to look up the word socialist.... it's ok.

I would suggest riding your bike on public streets to the nearest public library or community center. Perhaps you could attend a community (that would be public) social event to help dispel your fear of people.

Good luck!

I thought I was getting a bit anti social and isolated since I returned (my parent's originally) home. I went to school here (high school and parts of college) before I moved away as it was the thing to do when I was younger. It just was a real shock to me when I saw how much the neighborhood changed with it being a gang center, shooting people in broad daylight, petty and major theft, poor run down schools, and a mass exodus of the middle class to the tract homes in suburbia. While there is a change here with the younger professional moneyed hipsters moving here, it seems not enough. I don't think it will last as these 2 forces are clashing and who will win out-larger population vs. money. If the economy improves, these same new urban pioneers might do a run to the suburbs or another city for fear of their children's safety or better educational opportunities when they have their own kids. Or the gangs might become more emboldened and really cut loose. Whatever happens, I decided not to be a sheep and put too much trust in a government that lets it's people (by that I mean all of us here) down.

So I have been taking some steps to be more independent of services that will be cut in July or a few months later. I don't know what that is quite yet. I know I have been too comfortable with my life here as I adapted to this new reality. And that is where I will blame myself. I am weaning myself from being too government dependent (public transit is a huge example of this). That does not mean that I forgo being a part of society like not paying all taxes owed, hide out at home, or something crazy like that. Than means that I don't want to be a burden if it fails me (which is going to happen starting in a couple of weeks). No amount of voting on my part will change what is happening to this state.

Why the anti-social attitudes? Irrational fear of the public, the other? If you want to name an ailment afflicting America, that's it. We're so insecure we fear anyone not exactly like us... and eventually we'll start to fear anyone not us.


Great point! I admit to sharing some of folder's opinions. I hate when people cough on a bus. Or some smelly guy gets in my way. OTOH, I'm really worried that we may be pushing things we don't like off to a corner. Keep them in a ghetto. Pay someone to medicate them. Spare me the pain. Move me to a comfortable suburban setting with a safe SUV in the driveway...

Great point! I admit to sharing some of folder's opinions. I hate when people cough on a bus. Or some smelly guy gets in my way. OTOH, I'm really worried that we may be pushing things we don't like off to a corner. Keep them in a ghetto. Pay someone to medicate them. Spare me the pain. Move me to a comfortable suburban setting with a safe SUV in the driveway...
I don't suppose we can stop people from coughing or stinking, but we shouldn't have to put up with intimidation and worse in public places like the library and transit. But I think the only solution to these public problems are public institutions. The police (AKA public safety) should be enforcing the laws including quality of life laws like loitering, vagrancy and harassment. Public education should be teaching manners and civility, including things iike hygiene and covering coughs. Public officials like librarians and bus drivers should also work on enforcing the rules of decency in public places.

Folder seems to be saying that the public institutions are failing in his community. That is the time to start voting and community activism. But if that can't work, as folder seems to be saying, the only alternative is to crawl into a hole or move to a community where public institutions do work. If I was folder, I would think about trying to sell my house (if possible) and get the hell out of Dodge. There are a lot of nice places to live in this world.

Or move beyond the box entirely as I have the opportunity to do so now. Please feel free to see my solution at the Folding Bikes Forum right here specifically:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?653831-A-Little-Sneak-Peek-At-Folding-Bicycle-4-My-quot-New-quot-Raleigh-Twenty (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?653831-A-Little-Sneak-Peek-At-Folding-Bicycle-4-My-quot-New-quot-Raleigh-Twenty)
While it is not a 100% solution, it is a very workable one for me.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my inquiry.

I don't suppose we can stop people from coughing or stinking, but we shouldn't have to put up with intimidation and worse in public places like the library and transit. But I think the only solution to these public problems are public institutions. The police (AKA public safety) should be enforcing the laws including quality of life laws like loitering, vagrancy and harassment. Public education should be teaching manners and civility, including things iike hygiene and covering coughs. Public officials like librarians and bus drivers should also work on enforcing the rules of decency in public places.

Folder seems to be saying that the public institutions are failing in his community. That is the time to start voting and community activism. But if that can't work, as folder seems to be saying, the only alternative is to crawl into a hole or move to a community where public institutions do work. If I was folder, I would think about trying to sell my house (if possible) and get the hell out of Dodge. There are a lot of nice places to live in this world.

There is some action being taken by RTA and other public transportation in LA. The problem now is funding. The Metro rail. my favorite public transportation is very popular but they are talking about cutting some services from that as well. As far as security many of the new buses have live feed video cameras in the front, back and seveal places on the side. I am different than both of you in that I will freely move to a community that better meets my needs even if I had to commute to work. But I would consider a folding bike if I still had to commute and there were better public transportation in our area.

There is some action being taken by RTA and other public transportation in LA. The problem now is funding. The Metro rail. my favorite public transportation is very popular but they are talking about cutting some services from that as well. As far as security many of the new buses have live feed video cameras in the front, back and seveal places on the side. I am different than both of you in that I will freely move to a community that better meets my needs even if I had to commute to work. But I would consider a folding bike if I still had to commute and there were better public transportation in our area.
We used to have the live feed security cameras in our buses, but they took them out with no change in crime. The only crime I'm aware of on local buses is high school kids being loud, obnoxious and intimidating. (Not sure if any of those are crimes, but you know what I mean.) Security guards ride on selected routes to fight this problem. I would guess this is cheaper and more effective than the cameras.

A community that forced me to drive to work would not "meet my needs" in any way shape or form. I would never live in such a community, for any reason. It should be a high priority in our nation to end the foolish dependence on cars to get to work. This is stupid stupid stupid....People must have a real alternative to cars or the insanity will never end.

A community that forced me to drive to work would not "meet my needs" in any way shape or form. I would never live in such a community, for any reason. It should be a high priority in our nation to end the foolish dependence on cars to get to work. This is stupid stupid stupid....People must have a real alternative to cars or the insanity will never end.

:thumb: Agreed!

And I wonder how much of the insecurity on public buses and in libraries is real and how much of it is imagined.

:thumb: Agreed!

And I wonder how much of the insecurity on public buses and in libraries is real and how much of it is imagined.
You would have to check with local sources to find that out. My bus service provides more than 11 million trips a year. I'm sure there are a number of crimes every year, but I don't know the number. But it sure seems like good odds to me that I won't be hurt or victimized. I would say the situation with the library is similar.

The OP does sound like he is facing some real crime concerns, but in some cases cases, real crime is not the issue. IIRC, the OP also talked about coughs, poor hygiene and rudeness. There are ways to cope with these unpleasant situations that don't involve buying a car or staying home all the time.

I live in Oakland, CA.

For the average middle class white guy, much of the "insecurity" is imagined. To slightly over-generalize that could be extended to working class too... but nobody wants to say they are working class (or agree on what that means). Still, you need only look at crime statistics to understand that your chances of getting robbed or assaulted riding a bus in -any- city in the US are very very very slim.

To me the OP sounds paranoid, anti-social, and self-absorbed.

I live in Oakland, CA.

For the average middle class white guy, much of the "insecurity" is imagined. To slightly over-generalize that could be extended to working class too... but nobody wants to say they are working class (or agree on what that means). Still, you need only look at crime statistics to understand that your chances of getting robbed or assaulted riding a bus in -any- city in the US are very very very slim.

To me the OP sounds paranoid, anti-social, and self-absorbed.

You got all that from one message? Talk about a hasty conclusion!

And BTW, you sound judgmental and hostile.

Perception can reflect reality.

Hi Roody,

I have a question regarding your comment regarding public school educators should be teaching manners and civility. Why do you think this is a public educator's role and not parental? Public educators see students for 6-7 hours per day. A parent the rest presumably. Additionally, when a child enters Kindergarten they have had 5 years of social structure and conditioning--which most pscyhological research states full development of a child (meaning their personality, intelligence etc.) has been cemented.
You are placing tremendous responsibility on the government or more accurately government employees. What happened to individual responsibility? Parental responsibility?


To the OP:

I am also rather grossed out by people not covering their mouths when coughing. My other frustration: Why must people TALK SO LOUD ON THEIR CELL PHONES when they are being assisted in a store. Why must the customer at the cash register talk so loud? Usually about silly things like, "why didn't JimBob come to bingo last night?"

Why do people walk around the store talking as LOUD as they can and look around to see who is watching them? It is very strange.

It makes me think it is their first cell phone and they are very proud. Don't get me started on Apple IPhones--wow--is it that serious people?

Perception can reflect reality.

Hi Roody,

I have a question regarding your comment regarding public school educators should be teaching manners and civility. Why do you think this is a public educator's role and not parental? Public educators see students for 6-7 hours per day. A parent the rest presumably. Additionally, when a child enters Kindergarten they have had 5 years of social structure and conditioning--which most pscyhological research states full development of a child (meaning their personality, intelligence etc.) has been cemented.
You are placing tremendous responsibility on the government or more accurately government employees. What happened to individual responsibility? Parental responsibility?

Teaching about manners, personal responsibility, sharing, and so on have always been part of the school curriculum. These things are at least as important as the three Rs. It's a big job. I agree that parents have the primary responsibility but most can use a little help from teachers, doctors, clergy, etc.

I live in Oakland, CA.

For the average middle class white guy, much of the "insecurity" is imagined. .....To me the OP sounds paranoid, anti-social, and self-absorbed.


I am not white, male, or middle class. The only accurate thing right here is I live in an urban area. As for crime, that comes with the territory of the infirm, female, sickly, elderly people that are viewed as weak or unprotected. Calling attention to this does not make one "paranoid, anti-social, or self-absorbed." Just forced to be more aware of my surroundings than most people are.



You got all that from one message? Talk about a hasty conclusion!

And BTW, you sound judgmental and hostile.

And too much behind a computer screen. Khanom, go out and enjoy your surroundings and give thanks that you can enjoy it as I wish to.

Perception can reflect reality.

To the OP:

I am also rather grossed out by people not covering their mouths when coughing. My other frustration: Why must people TALK SO LOUD ON THEIR CELL PHONES when they are being assisted in a store. Why must the customer at the cash register talk so loud? Usually about silly things like, "why didn't JimBob come to bingo last night?"

Why do people walk around the store talking as LOUD as they can and look around to see who is watching them? It is very strange.

It makes me think it is their first cell phone and they are very proud. Don't get me started on Apple IPhones--wow--is it that serious people?

Improper Cell phone usage, loud talking, and the rest of it is simply a lack of proper socialization or simply put or thought of as "I don't give a F#@$ what you think" attitude. There is a time and place for all activities. Phone conversations were once limited to the home or office environment and did not intrude on others for the most part. People did go "out" to special trips to the movies, parks,restaurants, and the like and made a big deal out of it when I was younger. That usually meant that people generally behaved themselves and did not intrude on others. Now it just something to do with no specialness attached to it as cell phones have become.

So....I simply decided that I won't wait for people to change....I will change my own habits. See below for one of my newest solutions: