Classic & Vintage - Big Subdivsion Garage Sale - The REALLY BIG prize!

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auchencrow
06-11-10, 12:10 PM
I was looking forward to this day: The signs had been posted for weeks, announcing a huge subdivision-wide garage sale, in a fairly affluent suburb near a lake where I sometimes ride my bike. Most of the homes there were built in the 70’s – and it was (until the recent crash) a stable neighborhood with a lot of aging long-time residents – half of whom thought they wanted a 10-speed during the bike boom years, only to hang them upside down in their garages because they were in the way of the station wagon, the kids toys, and especially all the lawn equipment so essential to keeping them in good stead with the Subbub’n homeowner’s association.
I had my pick-up all gassed up and ready to go – and I was there plenty early, ready to pounce on the best deals, certain, that by the end of the morning, I would have made at least three or four round trips to unload all the minty Paramounts, Raleighs, Peugeots, Bianchi’s, and Miyata tourers that I’d buy for nickels and dimes.
As each garage door was raised, I would be on hand to view the troves of cycling treasure, so long held there from prying eyes.
Then, the first door rose up– and as the morning sunlight darted in to illuminate the darkness, I saw something shining – glimmering – round and SPOKE-LIKE! - But alas, it was a nothing more than a cluster of golf club shafts, poking out of a trash barrel, flanked by two large paintings of clowns on black velvet.
As each subsequent door was opened, this horror would repeat itself again and again- and each time that something shiny and grand glimmered out of the darkness, it would instantly transmogrify itself into a grimy toaster oven, a kids toy, or a broom handle, once it came into full view of the sun.
Was it voodoo? - How could all of my expectations be so piteously dashed? I circled the sub again and again. Certainly, with so many sales, there would have to be some prize for the day’s effort – and sure enough, soon, bike-shaped objects began to appear:
- A smallish, purple Murray Mountain Bike with white knobby tires.
- A Kent 10-speed with high rise handlebars and a Bow-Kow derailleur.
- A rusting step-through women’s bike, with an extra-super-huge-jumbo saddle, shaped like toilet seat.
- A gas pipe three-speed with $100 price tag.
- Three pink and white girls bikes, with 16 and 20” wheels and multi-colored streamers.
- A “Smurfmobile”, and various wheeled Fisher Price pull toys.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh117/auchencrow/Bike%20Forums/Smurfmobile.jpg
I felt dejected, dismayed, and tempted to buy the Smurfmobile. To what depths had I sunk? – Clearly, there was nothing here to feed my C&V addition, so I decided to head home, to call it a day, to cry in my beer… Then, from the corner of my eye, I spied a little old man pedaling away on his newly-acquired purple Murray mountain bike, with white knobby tires.
“He actually bought that POC?” I asked myself. - But one look at the contented, joyful expression on his face made me think again: That humble Murray mountain bike was worth its weight in gold! - For in an instant, it had melted years away from him, and it let him feel the wind about his ears, and to be lost in the moment, as he went tooling happily down the block.
David Newton
06-11-10, 12:20 PM
It is amazing how loss & depression brings out the weirdest justification.
How do you FEEL about the other guy getting the Murry? Have you been happy with the Smurf Power Cycle?
Good read. Thanks. Seems whenever I'm ready to fill the truck I find nothing, when I'm just out tooling around bike come at me from all angles.
Nice tale, went sailing myself this morning with high expectations only to come home empty handed with out even a pleasant memory like yours. I will make up for it later with a 20 mile ride and then have a smile to myself at no additional cost. Thanks for sharing.........made my day.
Chicago Al
06-11-10, 12:34 PM
The Smurfcycle's fork looks bent, but that could just be the photo.
dgodave
06-11-10, 12:38 PM
I like these feel good stories that turn the frown upside down...:beer:
.
I have had similar experiences with the neighborhood wide garage sales. The great news is that they tend to draw the crowd, so other garage sales that same day are often neglected.
I picked up this nice Peugeot mixte a couple of weeks ago at an Asheville garage sale, while all of the "experts" were at the Biltmore Village neighborhood wide garage sale.
I rarely find anything good at the nicer neighborhood wide sales. I haven't figured out why.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/4568715868_74198724ca_o.jpg
The Smurfcycle's fork looks bent, but that could just be the photo.
that's just because it's not in front of a white garage door!
sykerocker
06-11-10, 01:48 PM
Murphy's Law, bicycle finding style: You only come across bikes when you don't expect to find them, and are not in the slightest bit ready to haul at that moment. Which is why there's nothing four wheeled in my driveway that isn't a hatchback, pickup truck, station wagon or van.
I've been seeing the signs of the local garage sales set up for tomorrow (Saturday). Unless I run across some of them on my morning ride, I'm not going to bother.
One key to garage sales is you need to be hunting for more than just bikes. There just aren't that many good/decent bikes out there. But if you have other items you are seeking (hopefully something more common), then you will do just fine. Then the bike finds are just icing on the cake.
dgodave
06-11-10, 01:58 PM
The other secret (sshhh) is to actually ASK if they have any bikes or parts for sale. Once in a while they have some "junk" in the shed that they didnt even think to sell. Most of the time it IS junk, though.
.
michael k
06-11-10, 02:26 PM
With the '40 days and 40 nights of rain' we've had folks here have given up on having garage sale's and filling up the thrift store with junk like Schwinn super sports, Raleigh super course's and Sakai's and .........
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc219/walkingfloor198/supersport007.jpg
cb400bill
06-11-10, 08:00 PM
Auchen, I understand where your coming from.
I've been to many of the "subdivision sales" and saw nothing of interest. I did get a little lucky a month back and snagged this 600 Arabesque equipped Volkscycle. It was at the first house I stopped at that morning. After buying it, I stopped about 30 more with nary a bike in sight.
The Volkscycle was complete, but covered in garage grime and most of the chrome was covered with surface rust. After a thorough cleaning and overhaul, it is a nice little riding bike.
Before
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_FfM_jO4_Tm0/S_gWHwMeIAI/AAAAAAAABeM/pDCccPd3QOE/IMG_3657.JPG
After
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_FfM_jO4_Tm0/TBLoejmSwtI/AAAAAAAABwE/Dwkmq-wMyzk/Volkscycle%20Mark%20XV.jpg
auchencrow
06-12-10, 05:13 AM
Thank you all, for your comments, but don't take the part about me crying in my beer seriously - It's just fun to let my imagination run and tell about it. It's the thrill of the chase.
Certainly I've come up empty often enough to understand that a $5.00 Paramount is NOT waiting for me every time...Just some of the time. (There I go again.)
It was very nice though, to see the old guy pedaling merrily away. Today was his lucky day...And who knows? - Tomorrow may be YOURS! :)
r0ckh0und
06-12-10, 04:13 PM
Great story.....................I like to target the older neighborhoods also but generally find steel wheeled fixie fodder. This morning I was on my way to a job and could'nt resist the temptation to sidetrack into a subdivision sale. I told myself I was in a bit of a hurry so I'd just do a quick drive through................First I found a World Sport that will clean up nicely, smaller frame, good wheels and at $10 priced to low for any bartering. Second I found a Specialized Hardrock kids bike. Bartered a bit for this one as I will flip it cheap and easy. As I was hitting a few of the less travelled streets that did'nt have signs saying Garage Sale >>>>>>>>>>> I came upon a sale with very few items out on the drive and a road bike leaning up against the garage. It had a little post-it note on the top tube that read "Ladies Bike $10" ......a 49cm Schwinn Premis in very good condition. Likely my best garage sale find to date.
khatfull
06-12-10, 04:37 PM
Auchen, I have to ask...what do you do for a living? If it isn't writing, you missed a call somewhere along the line. :)
This and your "If your bike could talk" post are just about forcing me to go back and search your posts for other gems.
cycleheimer
06-12-10, 05:08 PM
Joseph Conrad couldn't have written better prose!!!
Stopped at a few garage sales myself today... the bikes were all mountain bikes with 24" wheels!!! Serious!! Mostly girls bikes, too!!! With flower and cartoon character stickers all over them! :eek:
Word to the wise...watch out when looking for bikes at garage sales... if you don't see bikes or other stuff you need, be careful not to kill time looking around and then wind up blowing all your cash on useless junk you will never need just because it's a "bargain". You come home broke with a load of clutter... "a man has got to know his limitations".
cycleheimer
06-12-10, 05:12 PM
Auchen, I have to ask...what do you do for a living? If it isn't writing, you missed a call somewhere along the line. :)
This and your "If your bike could talk" post are just about forcing me to go back and search your posts for other gems.
... you might also want to search the New York Times best sellers list for his other works ... ;)
plumberroy
06-12-10, 05:35 PM
Last week I found a raleigh triumph 10 speed. I think it is raleigh to compete with store brand bike but it has good tires and is ridable now. For $5 but I had to take the huffy girls 10 speed too.I dropped the huffy off at goodwill (no one in the family it would fit if I fixed it up) I am thinking of using the raleigh to throw in the back of truck to stop at a bike trail on the way home from work. I haven't rode in a couple years and need to get back in shape. I can stop and ride the trail till I get in better shape . The big hills coming back to the house :cry: are hard on a fat guy. I figure I,m not out much if some one steals it at work
Roy
RobbieTunes
06-12-10, 05:38 PM
Auchen, I have to ask...what do you do for a living? If it isn't writing, you missed a call somewhere along the line. :)
This and your "If your bike could talk" post are just about forcing me to go back and search your posts for other gems.
He used bullets, too. Sure sign of journalism.
Poguemahone
06-12-10, 07:00 PM
Look, there are two basic tricks. First one is to not actually look for specific things (ie a Masi) or you'll always be disappointed. The second is to be looking for something else besides bikes. I pick up a lot of music at yard sales and thrifts, for instance. The week netted two beautiful P-Funk lps (Mothership Connection and One Nation w/ the 45), a lp copy of the Replacement's Pleased to Meet Me (still sealed), a fairly complete collection of Tricky CDs, a minty Chic lp, a Steve Earle cd, minty lps by Sinatra and Peter Gabriel, a copy of The Harder they Come soundtrack on LP, the Dead's only great album on cd (Workingman's Dead, the Rhino re-issue), a Suzi Quatro cd collection, and two Massive Attack cds. Total cost was under ten bucks; some of it I'll swap for something else (I already have copies of the P-Funk lps, for example). But I found no bikes, and even missed out on a Cannondale roadie. No biggie. Something interesting will likely show up, it always does. Patience is the other great rule.
You almost have to take a zen attitude towards bikes (and lps, for that matter). Accept what comes, and decide what you do with it once it arrives, not before.
Chicago Al
06-12-10, 07:26 PM
Poguemahone, you have insanely varied tastes in music, suggestive of schizophrenia. You should seek professional help.
But next time you're throwin down a party, make sure to call me...make my funk the P-Funk!
BigPolishJimmy
06-12-10, 07:31 PM
I've been pretty fortunate lately, especially since I've decided to chill out on my aquisition and focus on getting rid of the bikes that I'm not going to ride. It almost reminds me of back in the day when I would be without a girlfriend, activly looking and not having any luck. Then I would give up and bam, suddenly have a girlfriend from out of the blue. Of course once one had a girlfriend, the other girls would be coming out of the woodwork. Thats how it seems now, I really am enjoying my Fuji, I'm not looking for a bike for me, and I'd rather be riding my bikes than fixing bikes that i'm not going to ride, but I keep finding worthy bikes. Not expensive or especially valuable bikes, but just solid rides that need a little attention. Of course I cannot leave them in such pitiful condition, I have to take them home and fix the shifters and put a little true on the wheels.
sykerocker
06-12-10, 07:34 PM
This morning's 30 miler was planned around hitting two local church yard sales. Learned not to bother in the future. Little secret (in my area, at least) about what shows up at the church yard sale: Only the stuff that wasn't good enough to sell at the parishoner's own yard sales - or that stuff is being hoarded for their own sales in the future. Then got a call from Poguemahone calling to check on a couple of little bits he ran across, seeing if I needed any of them.
Mark of a damn good friend.
sykerocker
06-12-10, 07:35 PM
Look, there are two basic tricks. First one is to not actually look for specific things (ie a Masi) or you'll always be disappointed. The second is to be looking for something else besides bikes. I pick up a lot of music at yard sales and thrifts, for instance. The week netted two beautiful P-Funk lps (Mothership Connection and One Nation w/ the 45), a lp copy of the Replacement's Pleased to Meet Me (still sealed), a fairly complete collection of Tricky CDs, a minty Chic lp, a Steve Earle cd, minty lps by Sinatra and Peter Gabriel, a copy of The Harder they Come soundtrack on LP, the Dead's only great album on cd (Workingman's Dead, the Rhino re-issue), a Suzi Quatro cd collection, and two Massive Attack cds. Total cost was under ten bucks; some of it I'll swap for something else (I already have copies of the P-Funk lps, for example). But I found no bikes, and even missed out on a Cannondale roadie. No biggie. Something interesting will likely show up, it always does. Patience is the other great rule.
You almost have to take a zen attitude towards bikes (and lps, for that matter). Accept what comes, and decide what you do with it once it arrives, not before.
Damn, Suzi Quatro. All that I've got of her's is on LP's in the attic. Still remember seeing her at the Agora in Cleveland in '73.
LesterOfPuppets
06-12-10, 07:52 PM
I saw a GT Karakoram in nice shape for $50, but I was biking down to Portland on some important business so I had to hope that it would be there on my way back. The sale was still on when I rolled back by but the bike was gone. C'est la vie.
sykerocker
06-12-10, 07:55 PM
Of course once one had a girlfriend, the other girls would be coming out of the woodwork.
That, my friend, is the greatest truth of life. I've never figured out what it is about women that they can home in on a guy who's newly out of circulation. I think they do it out of a sense of nastiness.
LesterOfPuppets
06-12-10, 08:09 PM
the Dead's only great album on cd (Workingman's Dead, the Rhino re-issue),
There's actually one other great Grateful Dead album, even better than Workingman's Dead in some ways - Bear's Choice
155093
That, my friend, is the greatest truth of life. I've never figured out what it is about women that they can home in on a guy who's newly out of circulation. I think they do it out of a sense of nastiness.:lol:
No, I have good evidence that that is not the case. At least, it's not always the case!
I figured: when you're on the prowl you look too hungry, and it scares them off. Once you've made a catch, and exude confidence, it draws them in.
Poguemahone
06-19-10, 11:57 AM
Okay, it's not all bad at the big subdivision yard sales. There was one in a neighbourhood near me this weekend, and I rode my bike on over to take a look. Following my central rule of yard sales-- don't look for anything, but accept what you find, I almost immediately found this river-running whitewater kayak for forty bucks. Since it had seen minimal use and I've been wanting one for my GF, I gladly bought it:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/1967PeugeotPX10/yardsales/vista001.jpg
Okay, so now I'm completely happy. I pedal around some more, find some old Punk rock cds (NOFX and Minor Threat) and go home to get the car, so I can bring the kayak back home and call it a day. At this point, looking for nothing, nothing at all, and I pass this nearly unridden, fifty dollar Fuji flat bar roadie:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/1967PeugeotPX10/yardsales/vista002.jpg
So I buy it, too, because I know I can flip it for more than I paid for the bike, kayak, and cds all told.
I'm telling you, it's all in the zen of the search, finding cool stuff you're not really looking for.
auchencrow
06-19-10, 01:40 PM
...it's all in the zen of the search, finding cool stuff you're not really looking for.
^ So if I start seriously looking for a rusty Huffy MTB, are you sure I'll find a vintage Colnago road bike?
robtown
06-19-10, 06:03 PM
I've had poor luck recently. The last community sale netted 8 bikes - mostly old mountain bikes and ladies frames - the worst sellers. Only two were of reasonable quality, a Fuji, and a Specialized. Over the next three weeks I did clear almost $800 in profit. Most of that went into my old school muscle bike (aka Stingray) with custom paint job, banana seat, sissy bars, and ape hangers w/26" wheels.
I've seen some of your finds and rebuilds - and this short drought will pass. Nice commentary about the junk bike being a fountain of youth!
This is why I don't do garage sales. time consuming and no yield. Although I do dig the kayak.
sykerocker
06-19-10, 08:44 PM
^ So if I start seriously looking for a rusty Huffy MTB, are you sure I'll find a vintage Colnago road bike?
Zen of the search isn't like Murphy's Law. You can play the latter against itself to good success. You can't do that with the former.
Poguemahone
06-20-10, 08:59 AM
^ So if I start seriously looking for a rusty Huffy MTB, are you sure I'll find a vintage Colnago road bike?
(Thwacks auchencrow over the head with cane) "Back to washing dishes and sweeping the temple courtyard, young acolyte! The path to enlightenment lies not in that direction!
You must look for nothing, my son. Looking for the rusty Huffy MTB will lead you only to a bad case of lockjaw. Besides, you are looking for the Huffy, but in truth and in your heart, you are looking for the Colnago. To lie to yourself in such a manner is not only unbecoming, but unproductive as well.
Only when you truly accept that you are looking for nothing will you actually find anything. And what you find will be both unexpected and a pleasure, and you will profit immensely thus."
(Thwacks auchencrow over the head once more, for good measure)
Poguemahone
06-20-10, 09:03 AM
This is why I don't do garage sales. time consuming and no yield. Although I do dig the kayak.
It's a cool boat. My current one, an old Wavesport Godzilla, has a planing (flat) bottom; the Dagger rpm has a more traditional rounded hull. I've heard the rounded hulls handle differently and roll easier (though my roll is pretty bombproof when I've dialed it in) so I'll be interested to see.
Whitewater yaks ain't cheap; so it was a great find.
auchencrow
06-21-10, 04:31 AM
.....(Thwacks auchencrow over the head once more, for good measure)
Ouch! - Go easy with that cane ! ! ! :lol:
I have learned a few rules about yard sales.
If you go to yard sales, you find cool stuff, including cool and rare and valuable stuff. But unless you go to a lot of them, the cool stuff you find won't be the rare stuff you're looking for.
For example... A few years ago I bought a guitar amp at a yard sale (Fender Super Champ). Spent $35 on it and boy did I catch hell from my wife. Her point was I don't need a guitar amp, I don't have time to be in a band, and anyway I'm a bass player (as evidenced by two bass amps I already have) and I can't just go spending $35 without a second thought. All points well taken. I sold the amp on ebay for $1855, which more than paid for my Counterpoint Opus II.
I'm kinda wishing I'd kept it, since my son is taking up the guitar... he's playing an Ibanez Les Paul copy I found in a dumpster, a good guitar but doesn't sound great played through a bass amp.
If you are looking for something specific that's cool and rare and valuable, you have to go to a lot (approximately all) the yard sales to find it. If you go to all the yard sales, you are sure to find it, unless they tossed it in a dumpster instead.
The quality of goods at yard sales is better, on average, than the stuff in dumpsters; that's because dumpsters also contain real garbage (used diapers, kitty litter, kitchen scraps, etc) that drags the average quality down. On the other hand, you don't have to haggle prices of stuff found in dumpsters. Stuff at yard sales also tends to be cleaner, on average, than stuff in dumpsters, but either one will benefit from a good cleaning.
kegoguinness
06-21-10, 01:14 PM
I'm gonna have to hang out on the classics forum. You guys are hilarious and non-venemous. I spend my days on the commuter and folder forums. Great writing here. I almost choked on the peanuts I was eating for laughing!
David Newton
06-21-10, 01:30 PM
Commuter!
Get the hell out of here!
Share the peanuts?
cyclotoine
06-21-10, 01:32 PM
transmogrify
Calvin & Hobbes?
cb400bill
06-21-10, 03:23 PM
Calvin & Hobbes?
I still miss them.
plumberroy
06-21-10, 04:29 PM
After a weekend that every thing that could go wrong did . I made a loop through the local flea market and found this A motobecane nomade I for my pocket money so there was i little light in a dark weekend
Roy
Poguemahone
07-06-10, 07:16 PM
(The acolyte sits in the temple courtyard. About him is a dismantled Huffy, rusting and nearly inoperable. He has been engaged in a long and fruitless struggle with the Huffy’s cotter pin, and at this point is about to resort to drilling out the pin. Unfortunately, the temple has no electrical power, so the acolyte has resorted to running a very long and very surreptitious power cord to the Baptist church next door. Just as he is about to begin drilling out the cotter, the zen master sneaks up behind him and whacks him over the head with a cane.)
The acolyte: Ouch!
Zen master: SO, acolyte, I see you are still searching for enlightenment in the bowels of that non-Serotta Huffy. I would wager you are still not finding it, by the progress you are making on that cotter pin. A true master would have removed it without even removing it.
The acolyte: But master, all I have been able to find at yard sales in my path to enlightenment is this bicycle shaped object. How else can I gain enlightenment?
Zen master: Certainly not by searching for that Colnago you lust after in your heart, my son. Let me tell you a story, with pictures, that illustrates the path to enlightenment. Once, there was a great zen master, who could search for a bicycle without even looking for one. He was riding his humble UO8 about his neighbourhood, not looking for bikes, when he noticed a sign for a yard sale. He had not visited any that day, as he was not looking for anything but a satisfying bicycle ride, but the sale was not far out of his way, so he decided that he would take a detour just to simply experience the detour. Once there, he found this:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/1967PeugeotPX10/yardsales/amp.jpg
The acolyte: But master, I do not understand. This does not appear to be a bicycle. It appears to be a John Prine CD, a small shortwave radio, some speakers, and a stereo receiver.
(Master smacks The acolyte with cane): Sometimes you fail to see the obvious, my son. That is no mere stereo receiver. That is a very, very nice Sherwood receiver, and not only does it have stereo, it even has a quadraphonic option. Oddly, it is a nice match for the Sherwood turntable the master had found the prior week, but that is another story.
The acolyte: Quadraphonic? Is that something Steve Jobs came up with?
(Zen master sighs, and with an obvious mixture of regret and irritation—or whatever Zen Masters feel that passes for irritation—smacks The acolyte on the head again)
Zen Master: You see, my son, he was not looking for a bicycle, a John Prine Cd, or stereo equipment, yet he found them. The homeowner was impressed with the Master’s knowledge, and noticing the UO8, mentioned he had a bicycle he might be willing to sell. Taking the Zen Master back to the garage, he showed the master a bicycle. No, before you ask, it was not a Colnago in your size. It was a Trek 730 from 1982, draped with Campy Super record of a slightly later vintage.
The acolyte: Did he then buy it?
Zen master: No, he talked to the homeowner, and realized the homeowner had a deep love for bicycling. He convinced the homeowner to keep the bike, to fix it up and ride it.
The acolyte: But how is that wise, master? I do not understand...
Zen master: Alas, I am afraid you have much sweeping of the courtyard and washing of dishes before you understand. But then the homeowner pulled out this box of parts, which the Zen Master proceeded to buy:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/1967PeugeotPX10/yardsales/superbe.jpg
The acolyte: But master, this box has a Campy seatpost and a fairly complete set of Suntour Superbe, amoung other things... are those Cinelli bar and stem? How could he find such things without looking for them? How? It makes no sense.
Zen master: Alas, my son, even a good thwack on the head will not help you, so far are you from enlightenment (looks over The acolyte’s shoulder). I fear this lesson is at an end. Perhaps I may return, and illuminate your path yet again, although I suspect your path may soon involve much running and hiding.
(The acolyte looks over his shoulder, and jumps up in surprise. Running towards him is a small horde of angry Baptist elders. The one in the lead is furiously waving a power bill. Quickly, The acolyte runs around the temple, out of sight, the Baptists in quick pursuit).
cb400bill
07-06-10, 09:47 PM
Awesome story and a great pick up!
auchencrow
07-07-10, 04:43 AM
OK, So I get it. The Zen Master (Poguemahone), finds without looking, and all the rest of us look without finding.
This, grasshoppers, is the "Yin and Yang" of C&V Zen.
- Seems like a raw deal to me. :notamused:
auchencrow
07-07-10, 04:44 AM
PS - Poguemahone - great snag!
pastorbobnlnh
07-07-10, 07:19 AM
(The acolyte looks over his shoulder, and jumps up in surprise. Running towards him is a small horde of angry Baptist elders. The one in the lead is furiously waving a power bill. Quickly, The acolyte runs around the temple, out of sight, the Baptists in quick pursuit).
Great story! Well done! You should become a traveling Zen Master evangelist. :thumb:
One small correction for accuracy. :o Baptists usually don't have elders. They use Deacons. Presbyterians always have elders.
Hope this is helpful.:)
Yes but you must be an elder to be a deacon. :D
Poguemahone
07-07-10, 09:35 AM
Yes but you must be an elder to be a deacon. :D
The paths to enlightenment are many and varied, even for Baptists.
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