Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Tire question for long distance fast tour.

I am searching for information on rolling resistance of tires.

The reason for this search is planing a 3,000 mile cross country trip again. That is a fully supported tour at 120 miles / day.

I have done this twice before and learned that tire choice is one important factor. The roads are terrible in places such as split seal and sides of expressways.

My first tour was with 28 mm Conti tires. The second with 23 mm Bontrager and Conti. Each had its problems.

I like to go bigger but have no data to compare rolling resistance. I could buy tires and try them out. Is there a short cut?

BTW, my bike is a Cyclocross CF and can accept any tire. The speeds we are talking about are 100 miles in 5 to 6 hours (flat).

your best bet is to find the Bicycle Quarterly issue where they compared rolling resistance of tires. According to their tests, bigger is better (mostly)

I would think flat resistance would be about equally important.

Well I suppose it depends on the problems you had previously, but in my (very) humble opinion, I think you would be better served with 28s. I know that is what I would choose...maybe even 32s.

If by fully supported tour you mean that all you carry on your bike is food and spare tubes, I would probably go with 25mm. I am considering going with larger tires because I like to ride at night, during the day I find 25mm to be plenty wide.

Here's one chart http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesTire_TireRollingResistance.html

Here's another one http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/rolrec10a.pdf

The second chart focuses mostly on 406 tires. What you may notice is that most of those tires only lose a minute or less over 10 miles vs the the reference tire (the Vredstein Fortezza at the bottom).

I also happen to concur that in a non-racing context, a flat-resistant tire is likely to save you more time than a theoretically faster tire.

If possible, I'd try to figure out what the RAAM folks tend to use and go with that. If it doesn't work out, just try another tire.

Oh yeah, just remember that your bike's rims will only (officially) take a limited range of tire widths. E.g. the smallest tire my cross rims can take is 28c.

your best bet is to find the Bicycle Quarterly issue where they compared rolling resistance of tires. According to their tests, bigger is better (mostly)

I did some more checking and it was said that 32 mm top quality (and price) tires would be a good thing. The inflation pressure could be optimized. High pressure for smooth roads and lower pressure for rough pavement.

I would think flat resistance would be about equally important.

Yes. Very!
Some guys had up to 20 flats for a 25 day tour. There were some with 4 flats / day.
I am told that 32 mm Schwalbe Marathon Supreme or Dureme would be a good thing for this tour.
Any opinion on that?

If by fully supported tour you mean that all you carry on your bike is food and spare tubes, I would probably go with 25mm. I am considering going with larger tires because I like to ride at night, during the day I find 25mm to be plenty wide.

I had 25 mm tires on my Trek Madone. I could not lower the pressure for fear of more flats on very bad pavement and the high pressure beat me to the point of fatigue.

Here's one chart http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesTire_TireRollingResistance.html

Here's another one http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/rolrec10a.pdf

The second chart focuses mostly on 406 tires. What you may notice is that most of those tires only lose a minute or less over 10 miles vs the the reference tire (the Vredstein Fortezza at the bottom).

I also happen to concur that in a non-racing context, a flat-resistant tire is likely to save you more time than a theoretically faster tire.

If possible, I'd try to figure out what the RAAM folks tend to use and go with that. If it doesn't work out, just try another tire.

Oh yeah, just remember that your bike's rims will only (officially) take a limited range of tire widths. E.g. the smallest tire my cross rims can take is 28c.

Interesting information. I did not have that information and others said it does not exist.
My Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels have accepted 23 to 35 mm tires.
I am thinking to use Schwalbe Marathon Supreme or Dureme 32 mm and vary tire pressure to fit road conditions.
Any opinion on that?

When I crossed last year (115miles a day for 30 days), I used 25c Gatorskins. They ride well enough and have good flat resistance. Unless you're riding dirt roads, getting flats really comes down to avoiding riding in crappy shoulders and luck. I had 6 flats during the trip but someone else who was using Conti GP4000s only had 2 flats for the entire trip.

If it were me, I would probably run 28c Gatorskins, that way you can run slightly lower pressure to get a better ride on the nasty tar and chip roads out west.

When I crossed last year (115miles a day for 30 days), I used 25c Gatorskins. They ride well enough and have good flat resistance. Unless you're riding dirt roads, getting flats really comes down to avoiding riding in crappy shoulders and luck. I had 6 flats during the trip but someone else who was using Conti GP4000s only had 2 flats for the entire trip.

If it were me, I would probably run 28c Gatorskins, that way you can run slightly lower pressure to get a better ride on the nasty tar and chip roads out west.

Hey Brian,
You are one of the few who did this trip. Thanks for the information.
I just bought a fancy Cyclocross CF bike. It rides similar to a nice CF road bike but does accept bigger tires.
I am told that fatter tires offer advantages on bumpy roads and allow changing tire pressure to optimize speed and comfort.
I am sort of leaning toward Schwalbe marathon Dureme or Supreme 32 mm. I will do a lot of testing before I will commit to that choice.
BTW, what tour operator did you go with?

I did it with PacTour (http://pactour.com/)

I did it with PacTour (http://pactour.com/)

Thanks.
I did it twice with ABB.
How did PAC handle breakfast and dinner? Not an idle question. I am planning another tour at age 70.

Hey Brian,
You are one of the few who did this trip. Thanks for the information.
I just bought a fancy Cyclocross CF bike. It rides similar to a nice CF road bike but does accept bigger tires.
I am told that fatter tires offer advantages on bumpy roads and allow changing tire pressure to optimize speed and comfort.
I am sort of leaning toward Schwalbe marathon Dureme or Supreme 32 mm. I will do a lot of testing before I will commit to that choice.
BTW, what tour operator did you go with?

I went for 32mm SMSupremes for my fast Rando after good experience with bigger SMSs on my 26inch tourer. The price is the big negative, but I like the way they ride and they]re just so solid after 10 hours and I'm getting sloppy.

I am searching for information on rolling resistance of tires.It doesn't exist - it is dynamic - it is a function of load and tire/tube combination and pressure.

In general overall wheel/tube/tire weight is your only guide. Determining rolling resistance for individual loads is a crap shoot.

Bicycle quarterly rated the 24mm Deda Tre Giro D'Italia (or something like that, anyway) as the fastest tire available. That tire is no longer available with that name, but apparently the identical tire is now marketed under the Challenge brand as the "Triathlon". Bicycle Quarterly rated its flat resistance as poor.

There is a 28mm version of similar construction, made by the same company, called the "Parigi-Roubaix". I recently began using them and have been impressed so far. They do roll extremely well, and I have not yet flatted, though I have less than a thousand miles on them so far. My only concern is longevity: the rear tire is already starting to square off a bit. It won't surprise me if I have to replace it at 3,000 miles.

Bicycle Quarterly also recommended the Grand Bois "Cypres" 30mm tire. These tires did roll very well for me, but flat resistance was awful, and I don't use them anymore because of that.

HTH!

Thanks.
I did it twice with ABB.
How did PAC handle breakfast and dinner? Not an idle question. I am planning another tour at age 70.
I won't ever tour with another company than PacTour, they're that good. We would have breakfast in the motel parking lot, there was always a big selection of food to choose from, and then there's stops every 30 miles or so with every thing you can think of from junk food to fruit. They also do lunch on the road and we would have something different to eat each day. We were on our own for dinner, I think it was so people can eat when they finish and have a choice of what restraunt to go to. Basically the only thing you have to do is get on your bike and they take care of the rest.

Under the past events on their website, theres links to blogs from alot of the events, and I have a link to my in my profile that would give you an idea of what doing one of their rides is like.

Hi Will,

You asked about Marathon Supreme 32's. That's what I use on my commuting bike, which I also use for long-ish rides in the winter when it's raining or the roads are littered with debris. I got the Marathon Supremes because they are big enough to handle tough urban pavement, tougher than "racing" tires, but much lighter than some of the really thick and heavy "touring" tires that Schwalbe also makes.

So far, with about 2,000 commuting miles on them, I have 2 flats -- in both cases from little bits of wire that worked into the tires. Both times they were very slow leaks, found when I went out in the morning to get on my bike.

I also have some 28c Continental 4-seasons that I like a lot; they're livelier than Gatorskins but still reasonably tough.

Like some of the other posters, I'd recommend you hunt down the back issues of Bicycle Quarterly where they test tire widths. BQ tends to like wider tires, but they have recommended some narrow tires in the past, too.

One of BQ's past tire tests is available free on their website, here:

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/images/BQ64TireTest.pdf

Yes. Very!
Some guys had up to 20 flats for a 25 day tour. There were some with 4 flats / day.
I am told that 32 mm Schwalbe Marathon Supreme or Dureme would be a good thing for this tour.
Any opinion on that?

I run 32mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus on my touring bike. They are unequivocally the best touring tyre I have ever owned. They roll well and are virtually indestructible - in over 4000 miles I have never punctured. I am told they are tougher than the Supreme, having the heavier weight "smartguard" protection layer.

Have tried a number of tires on our tandem, so a lot more loading and faster riding than a touring bike. So far, we like the Conti 4000 in 25c (the Black Chili version) and the Schwalbe Durano, also 25c. They are fairly fast, ride and corner well, are folders and fairly light, and don't flat much if at all. I don't think 1 lb. tires would be that much fun for fast touring. We notice that we coast a lot faster than tandems running heavy tires.

Panaracer has a RiBMo tire out that I am thinking about trying. 25, 28 and 32 sizes that don't, supposedly, weigh much more than the Pasela's. I love my 700x32 michelin city's but they are a bit heavy at 560+g. The Conti 700x28 tourings I have are even heavier.

Sorry guys. I have been busy biking hard. I have a standard trail which is a mixture of limestone (25%) bumpy pavement and pretty good pavement for 50 miles round trip. I use that to get my act together. I have this Cyclocross bike with Conti City tires and do 17.2 MPH average for the round trip. I like to get this up to 18 MPH and have just ordered Schwalbe Marathon Dureme. Boy they were hard to get. Out of stock but did order today.
I will report back if these tires show a noticeable improvement over the Conti tires. The Schwalbe are expensive enough.
The goal is to do a 100 miles / day on limestone in well under 6 hours and go from there.
Next stage is a cross America Fast ride at 120 miles per day. I will look hard at PAC as Brian is describing.
My main meal is Breakfast. If the tour operator is not doing a good job on that I will not be happy.
I would appreciate any pointers as to a good diet to follow for 25 days at 120 miles / day. That has been my weak spot.
I think I have a terrific bike with Stevens Cyclocross and will try different tires (money no object on that).
I am attaching a picture from the last CC tour I attended. I am the guy standing and not all bikers in the picture made it home safely.

All of you that are using 28 and 32 tires; Do you use them on the same wheel and if so, what size rim (profile width) (or make/model) are they?

I want to get a "sport/touring" bike built and would like to run the 28's with fenders and maybe 32's on real crappy roads.

My current set of wheels are the Swiss DT 1.1(415) with 240 hubs and they are listed with a 19.4mm profile width. I ride 28 Gatorskins.
What do you guys think; too narrow for the 32 or fine for running 32's?

All of you that are using 28 and 32 tires; Do you use them on the same wheel and if so, what size rim (profile width) (or make/model) are they?

I want to get a "sport/touring" bike built and would like to run the 28's with fenders and maybe 32's on real crappy roads.

My current set of wheels are the Swiss DT 1.1(415) with 240 hubs and they are listed with a 19.4mm profile width. I ride 28 Gatorskins.
What do you guys think; too narrow for the 32 or fine for running 32's?

I am using Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels with 23 mm Bontrager and Conti slicks as well as 35 mm Schwalbe Marathon Dureme.
Sorry, I can not comment on your Swiss wheels.

I am searching for information on rolling resistance of tires.

The reason for this search is planing a 3,000 mile cross country trip again. That is a fully supported tour at 120 miles / day.

I have done this twice before and learned that tire choice is one important factor. The roads are terrible in places such as split seal and sides of expressways.

My first tour was with 28 mm Conti tires. The second with 23 mm Bontrager and Conti. Each had its problems.

I like to go bigger but have no data to compare rolling resistance. I could buy tires and try them out. Is there a short cut?

BTW, my bike is a Cyclocross CF and can accept any tire. The speeds we are talking about are 100 miles in 5 to 6 hours (flat).

If you plan to cover dirt roads I would go with a fast rolling 32mm if not go with a 28mm. There is more of a weight penalty with a 32mm and few good road tread patterns in 32mm size. Also, the road hybrid tires in 32mm size that are not cyclocross specific tend to be heavier commuting or recreational type tires. These do not roll as well as road racing tires and are heavier.

I would also go with tire liners. They are the cheapest lightest weight way to reduce thorn punctures. If you know that all of the roads would be high quality roads I would go with a 25mm tires. But 28mm take a lot more abuse without pinch flatting on railroad tracks and things like that. You will waste more time fixing flats with 23-25mm tires than you will loose by going with a 28mm tire and lightweight tire liners.

Also, you may need to try a pair of non cyclocross 32mm tires to see if they will fit on your rims. Most road bikes and probably most cyclocross bikes use a 20-22mm rim on the wheel. A lot of the hybrid road/commuting 32mm tires will have problems mounting on these rims as they are intended to work best on 25mm rims. Which are usually only seen on hybrid 700c bikes and older road bikes. The inexpensive replacement wheels for 700c bikes are often 25mm rim width. The lighter more expensive wheels usually use a 20-22mm rim width.

All of you that are using 28 and 32 tires; Do you use them on the same wheel and if so, what size rim (profile width) (or make/model) are they?

I want to get a "sport/touring" bike built and would like to run the 28's with fenders and maybe 32's on real crappy roads.

My current set of wheels are the Swiss DT 1.1(415) with 240 hubs and they are listed with a 19.4mm profile width. I ride 28 Gatorskins.
What do you guys think; too narrow for the 32 or fine for running 32's?

Here is the issue that I have run into. Nearly all of the tires in the 32mm width are either lightweight knobby cyclocross tires or some kind of recreational/commuting tire. The lightweight cyclocross tires are more likely to be able to fit onto a narrow road profile rim. This has to do with the thickness of the tire at the bead. The 32mm commuting tires are generally made to be heavy duty and are much thicker rubber and I have had difficulty keeping them mounted on 19-22mm rims. Some tires may mount others will not because the rubber walls together are too thick to allow the bead to set all the way down into the wheel. So when you air the tire up it fails because the bead doesn't hold. This is no trivial problem because when it fails it always blows out the tube with an unrepairable rip. You do not want this situation when riding far from home or on a tour.

There is really no way around this except to have two different sets of wheels. One with wider rims in the 24-26mm range for the 32mm tires. 28mm tires are still in the road racing tire category and will fit on the narrower rims.

I essentially have two bikes. One with fenders and 32mm tires for bad weather conditions and all weather touring. The other is my road bike which I use 28mm tires which for non serious racing and recreational riding/touring work very well.