General Cycling Discussion - airfree tires

http://www.airfreetires.com/Mountain_Bike_Tires.html

Has anyone used these airfree tires?

I am particularly interested in the
Teton All-Terrain HP 85-95 psi

I presently use Michein WildGripper Sprint S
http://www.bicycletires.com/wildgrippersprints.htm

They are a nice ride, but can go flat even with kevlar insole.

I would prefer an airfree tire that rides like the WildGripper ..if such a tire exists.

The only "air free" tire I'm aware of is way more of a pain then what it's worth. Stick with good old fashioned tires.

In November 2001 I installed Ocelot 26x1.9 160 psi no-flat tires (no air tube - solid polyurethane and nylon) from www.airfreetires.com on my Schwinn "Impact" 18 speed mountain bike. After eight months and a tad over 2000 road miles I am pleased to report that these tires are A-OK. They have zilch rolling resistance, cannot go flat or blow out and roll through broken glass and nails with impunity.

I weigh 275 and special ordered 160 psi-equivalent tires as I wanted and got zilch rolling resistance.

In May 2002 I bought four each Teton All Terrain High Pressure 26x2.0 90 psi. Installed two on my grandson's 18 speed MTB. He is pleased.

Last week I installed a Teton AT HP 90 psi on the front (and kept the Ocelot 26x1.9 160 psi on the back) of my Schwinn 18 speed. I now have considerably better control in muck and sand, a somewhat softer ride and still have zilch rolling resistance.


All things considered I am well pleased. I see no reason to ever use pneumatics again.

Originally posted by vladislav
In November 2001 I installed Ocelot 26x1.9 160 psi no-flat tires (no air tube - solid polyurethane and nylon) from www.airfreetires.com on my Schwinn "Impact" 18 speed mountain bike. After eight months and a tad over 2000 road miles I am pleased to report that these tires are A-OK. They have zilch rolling resistance, cannot go flat or blow out and roll through broken glass and nails with impunity.

I weigh 275 and special ordered 160 psi-equivalent tires as I wanted and got zilch rolling resistance.

In May 2002 I bought four each Teton All Terrain High Pressure 26x2.0 90 psi. Installed two on my grandson's 18 speed MTB. He is pleased.

Last week I installed a Teton AT HP 90 psi on the front (and kept the Ocelot 26x1.9 160 psi on the back) of my Schwinn 18 speed. I now have considerably better control in muck and sand, a somewhat softer ride and still have zilch rolling resistance.

All things considered I am well pleased. I see no reason to ever use pneumatics again.
Don't believe what every newbie says. People sign on here all the time just to sell something.

If you want to find out for yourself, try some out and let us know how they are. But you've been warned, here. ;)

Sounds like a spammer to me. Everybody I know that has tried these d@mn things thinks that they are just absolutely $hit. My LBS gave up on them (after 3 or 4 customers had them roll off their rims), cut them up, and used them as wall bumpers on their staircase.

Sorry-I don't believe it.

As LittleBigMan said

If you want to find out for yourself, try some out and let us know how they are. But you've been warned, here.


If you will take the trouble to go to www.airfreetires.com you will learn that you may return the tires within 90 days for refund if you don't like them.


In June 2000 when I first asked about these tires noone of this forum had heard of them. Now I understand why that is.

I got mine.

You don't want to investigate new and improved things? Cool.

Live well and prosper.

They tested very simular tires on the BBC's Tomorrow's World, riding over broken glass, and nail embedded wood.

I had a look at the website, but don't think very much of the "off road" tire trends they advertise...

I think I'll stick with my blow up tires for the time being, but thanks for the info :)

Rich

Originally posted by vladislav
As LittleBigMan said...
Let me say a little more--

We're not stupid on this forum.

Please take us off your spam list.

LBM,

Lewis Campbell (limylou) has used the Airfree tires on his GRR for a couple of years. He has been very happy with them and tells everyone so. There are a couple different compounds (compressions), and at least two mfgs. I understant that the HR compound from Airfree Tires is much better. But to each his own. And please don't assume everyone with a good comment is spamming. Hugh Waters, the owner of Airfree Tires posts regularly to the ARBR usenet group. And Hugh Doesn't spam. He responds to questions. I am waiting for the new Open Road recumbent tires (20/26) to hit the shelf.

www.airfreetires.com

Tom Balmer
Goatbiker/V2

Originally posted by Goatbiker
And please don't assume everyone with a good comment is spamming.
"Vlad?"

"Vladislav?"

Both newbies? C'mon! ;)

I don't assume everyone with a good comment is a spammer. I just don't appreciate sales rep's. pretending to be a poster with a question, then pretending to be a respondent with an answer.

spam, he's trying to sell stuff and hence joe please delete this thread. thank you, everyone can go back to your regularly scheduled program. :)

Originally posted by LittleBigMan
I just don't appreciate (people) pretending to be a poster with a question, then pretending to be a respondent with an answer.
Look who's talking! :D

With two years between posts, I don't really think he is a sales rep trying to drums up sales.

Personally, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's on to something.:confused:

Really I think it's the same guy, even his writing style is similar.
:rolleyes:
:p
:crash:

He is the same guy, no doubt of that. He had trouble posting under his old user name, hence the switch and he's a newbie again.

Originally posted by aerobat
He is the same guy, no doubt of that. He had trouble posting under his old user name, hence the switch and he's a newbie again.
He even says in one of his replies that he first posted something on the tyres in June 2000, which is the post date on the Vlad post.

I have doubts over the product but I don't think he tried to make us think he was two different people.

Maybe this thread just needs to be shifted to the 'Shameless Promotions' forum.

Like I said before, Hugh Waters, owner of Airfree Tires, is not a spammer, does not employ spammers.

He is a regular on the Alt-Rec-bicycle-Recumbent newsgroup.

Go to the Airfree website, click the link to Hugh, and ask him. But don't be rude. I have had many e-mail conversations with him and he is a very decent guy.

And I'm not a newbie. You should know me well enough by now to know that I don't sling B.S. I don't know either of the "V"s, but I'll bet dollars to donuts they are not selling for Airfree tires.

Tom Balmer

Originally posted by vladislav
In November 2001 I installed Ocelot 26x1.9 160 psi no-flat tires (no air tube - solid polyurethane and nylon) from www.airfreetires.com on my Schwinn "Impact" 18 speed mountain bike. After eight months and a tad over 2000 road miles I am pleased to report that these tires are A-OK. They have zilch rolling resistance, cannot go flat or blow out and roll through broken glass and nails with impunity.

I weigh 275 and special ordered 160 psi-equivalent tires as I wanted and got zilch rolling resistance.

In May 2002 I bought four each Teton All Terrain High Pressure 26x2.0 90 psi. Installed two on my grandson's 18 speed MTB. He is pleased.

Last week I installed a Teton AT HP 90 psi on the front (and kept the Ocelot 26x1.9 160 psi on the back) of my Schwinn 18 speed. I now have considerably better control in muck and sand, a somewhat softer ride and still have zilch rolling resistance.


All things considered I am well pleased. I see no reason to ever use pneumatics again.

mmmmmmm! spam! i love spam. this is true spam. those who doubt the spam content of this should do a search of vladislav's posts. all three of them advertising the same thing. two in this thread and one here (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?postid=94043#post94043).

Wham! Spam! Thanks, dude!

http://www.spam.com/assets/hp/GoodGone3_animation.gif

Airless tires?

www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_a.html#airless

I challenge anyone to show me a reputable bicycle shop anywhere that recommends airless tires, or even sells them.

LBM,

Here is the link to one of the pages for the Open Road tires. check out some of the other info on other pages too.

http://www.airfreetires.com/OpenRoad/Default.htm

The newest tires are made of a new compound (the HR tires), the same sort of stuff that the elastomers in shocks are made from.

They are heavier than regular tires, but for someone who commutes to work by bike, they will provide the ultimate reliability. There have been many discussions on Alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent on the value of a heavier tire (everyone wants to go fast) but many are setteling for reliability.

Airfreetires has made tires for larger rims, but now they are about to release them for the thinner rims, the 16-18mm used on many recumbents. They are starting with a 20", then will have a 26". The Open Road is a new shape they hope will excell in road use.

I know Sheldon Brown doesn't think much of airless tires in general, but a lot of his articals are old, and he may not be familiar with the newest technology in airfree design.

Tom Balmer

(repost)

Author Topic: road test report no-flat airfree bicycle tires
vlad
Cabinite
Member # 16
posted January 24, 2002 20:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[hpv] Air Free Tires?
Paul Goodrich hpv01@keyconnect.to <mailto:hpv01%40keyconnect.to>
Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:16:41 -0700
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>What's the word on Air Free tires and their compteitors, American Tires Air
Riders? I found
>their websites, which of course say favorable things, but I haven't heard
an opinion from anyone
>who doesn't have a vested interest.

As luck would have it, I've just come back from my first full-length commute (about 30 miles, all told) on AirFree tires. They're still new enough that the silicone hasn't all worn off, so they're more than a little squirrelly at the moment. More carefully stated, the running surface is fine, but the sidewalls and the sides of the tread are still slippery enough that they
"bounce off" minor ridges in the road rather than climbing over them. I
expect that this will improve once I wear the silicone off (for those who
are wondering, it is used to enable the tire to be extracted from the mould).
Even when they're fully silicone-free I'm sure I'll have some learning to
do: the front tire is equivalent to 120 PSI and the rear to 160 PSI, so
there's not much rubber on the road compared to the 90-PSI V-Monsters which
they're replacing.

Ah, though -- the joys of riding without having to scrutinize every inch of
oncoming pavement! There seems to be a significant segment of the
population in Portland that self-medicates their Seasonal Affective Disorder by imbibing alcohol, then throwing the empty bottles onto the street, from whence the big tires of the cars and trucks sweep the shards of glass neatly over into the part of the outermost lane and shoulder where bicycles tend to ride. I plowed straight through a good half-dozen patches of glass today, any one of which would ordinarily have caused either (1) a flat or (2) a potentially dangerous dodge into traffic to avoid the hazard; the AirFree tires took everything Portland's streets could throw at them with nary a complaint. Freed of the glass-hunting chore, I was at liberty to look around, observe more of the flow of traffic, see the scenery and just generally enjoy the ride.

Rolling resistance isn't a problem, either cruising or climbing -- I
deliberately specified very high-pressure tires for that reason. I can't
really speak to speed issues at the moment, because a hip injury last summer (non-bicycle-related) has kept me off the bike for the last several months and I'm taking it *very* easy for these first few weeks back in the saddle. I'll report back to the list in July or August with more accurate info on overall speed <grin> ...

Mounting the 120-PSI tire on the rim was no problem, but the 160 nearly
killed me. I finally developed a technique that involved zip-tying the tire in place at one point in the rim, engaging the mounting tool in the rim, kneeling on the ground and _laying the tire down_ on the ground and on my thighs. This allowed me to bring my body weight to bear on the mounting
tool, pressing it toward the rim to keep it from popping off about
two-thirds of the way around. The manufacturer also recommends pre-heating
an oven to about 150 degrees Fahrenheit, turning it off, then wrapping the
tire in a towel and letting it sit in there for 10 minutes or so to let it
get (slightly more) flexible before mounting it, as well as slathering the
tire and rim in soapy water before starting the mounting process.

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably get somewhat softer tires, just
to give myself larger contact patches for better steering and braking. I've heard that the new formulation (currently in testing) has much better
rolling resistance than this generation of the technology, so I'm hoping to
be able to come down into the 100-PSI range without feeling like I'm rolling a beanbag.

I was surprised to see how much stuff I was able to strip off the bike once
I mounted the AirFree tires. There's a surprising amount of technology
required to support pneumatic tires: pump, extra tube, patch kit, tire
irons, Schraeder-to-Presta adapter, extra dust covers and extra valve-stem
locknuts, at least. My rack-top bag used to be nearly full, and it's now
nearly empty.

That's about all I can think of at the moment. If there are other
questions, ask away and I'll go out and ride around until I can come up with an answer <grin>! Usual disclaimers apply: I don't work for AirFree, etc.

Fair skies and tailwinds --

Paul
Rans Rocket #7


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(repost)


vlad
Cabinite
Member # 16
posted November 23, 2001 17:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No flat tires on my BOV-bicycle.
Nov 9 I telephoned AirFreeTires http://airfreetires.com/
to place a credit card order; two each airfree high resilient Charleston Runabout 27x1-1/4 @ 160 psi-equiv.

They arrived yesterday. I did not succeed immediately in installing the tires per instructions. A few minutes of grunting and muttering convinced me there had to be a better way to install 160 psi-equiv tires. It occurs to me that tires with lesser psi-equivalent are probably easy to install with the tool I bought with the tires. I quit for the day having installed zero tires.

This morning I had a better idea. This method is actually easy.

-lower the tailgate of your pickup
-set the wheel on two 4x4 blocks on the tailgate
-run a rope around the rear bumper and over the driver side of the tailgate and through both bicycle wheel and tire at the 6 o'clock position. (You are standing at 3 o'clock.)
-at 12 o'clock use a ratchet-type-nylon-strap load binder.
-run the strap around the rear bumper, over the side of the tailgate and through the tire.
-work the ratchet to stretch the tire.
-put plenty of liquid hand soap on the inner surface and sides of the tire
--spray water on the rim
-lever a portion the tire onto the rim with a flat screwdriver or similar
-secure that segment of the tire with wire ties
-reposition one or more times as necessary to install the tire



By this time it was midday and warmer than I like. I rode only 5 miles. The tires had zilch rolling resistance. The 160 psi transmitted every bump to my bones as expected on a hardtail bike. I had purposely removed my gel seat pad so as to gain an appreciation of these tires with a normal bike seat. On a bike with springs and/or gel seat pad you probably would not notice the difference in tires -- except no flats.

I called AFT to order two Teton All Terrain HP 26x2.0 high resilient @ 160 psi-equiv for my Schwinn Impact 18 speed mountain bike. The answering machine answered. Maybe a long weekend? I will order the other tires first thing Monday morning.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How's this for some great ad copy:

"For some urban dwellers the bicycle is their main form of transportation and a flat tire could cost them a days pay or even in the most severe situations a crippling or even fatal accident. Granted this is a little melodramatic because most of the time it’s just going to be someone like you out for a fun day on your bike and you’ll have a flat tire and have to push or carry your bike to the nearest shop to have it repaired. Even if you have the tools and patches with you, in most cases you still won’t have much success with an emergency repair because about half the time the rim will be damaged."

Let's chase a squirrel up and down a pole until it gets tired.

On second thought, I quit. :D

If anyone cares, some bicycle shops will not work on airless tires. This could be a problem if you need a spoke replaced and a wheel trued, for instance.

In central Washington, there is an area infested with what's commonly called "tackweed," and i've seen tires come from that area with literally hundreds upon hundreds of thorns in them (particularly off-road tires). The usual solution is to combine Slime tire sealant with one of the following measures:

Mr Tuffy tire liners or other equivalent brands
Thick, thorn-resistant tubes (also an excellent way to practically eliminate pinch flats)
Combining all three of these measures is possible too, if there is adequate cause.

If you do run airless tires, keep an eye on your spoke tension, particularly in the rear wheel if it's a dished wheel. In a conventional pneumatic tire/wheel combo, the wheel isn't supported from the bottom. It hangs suspended by the bead all the way around the wheel, unless you hit something big enough that the rim bottoms out. The spokes in the bottom half of the wheel have less tension, but there's no focused zone of low tension.

With an airless tire, the tire's contact patch is the focus of a zone of low spoke tension because the tire is full of foam which is being compressed between rim and road in the contact-patch area. The spokes' tension goes up and down more, increasing the stress cycling on them (the primary cause of breakage) and possibly encouraging them to loosen as well.

No disrespect meant to the happy owners of airless tires. If they're working out for you, great! :)

FWIW, I have mounted on several bikes, the following tyres:

Tufo S33 special (tubulars) 700/21

Specialized Turbo Armadillos 27x1 1/4

Specialized Hemisphere 26x19.5

Pasela Messenger tyres 700/32

With the first 2, I have about (roughly) 9,000 miles withno punctures at all!

During that time, I was the recipient of the sort of ride that only an inflatible tyre can provide (although, in the case of the Armadillos and the S33's, they were a bit stiffer than other less puncture-prone tyres, but still light-years better than any solid tyre).

I guess the choice is yours. Every 2 years or so, somebody claims that solid tyres are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Dozens of people disagree, and in the periods inbetween, only tricycles and a few odd people use the airless tyres.

When something works as well overall as pneumatic tyres (theyve been around since the mid 1800's, and replaced solid tyres then), why would you even bother? Spend a few bucks on a decent inflatible tyre, why don'cha????

Am I the only one who finds it difficult to believe that this spam hasn't been deleted yet?

mechBgon,
I used the Specialized Turbo Armadillos on my roadbike for many years. We have Goats Head thorns here, and they get through anything. I also have ruined a few by running over glass in the dark/rain (usually the bottom of a beer bottle).

I thought about the spoke issue. Airfree uses a special tool to install, and I don't think they would be fun to try to remove. So I got rid of the spoke problem with bombproof aerospoke wheels (now I have to overcome the "Fred" image since I don't race).

I teach, and I give detentions for tardy, so I know I would never hear the end of it if I came in late with a lame "I had a flat" excuse. I ride in the dark, and sometimes in the rain. School is 18 miles away and I have been late 4 times in nine years, all while driving when an accident has stopped traffic on the freeway.

When I say I am looking for reliable commuting, I ain't kidding! I don't know if the Airfree tires will work out, but I sure am hoping.

Tom Balmer

this date I posted these new threads in Bicycle Mechanics forum:

To demount/mount solid bicycle tires

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=12008




To replace spokes without demounting solid tires

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=12009



Truing/aligning bicycle wheels

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=12010

First of all, are they heavier?

Secondly and more importantly, I think having to change a punctured tire is a part of cycling too. Sometimes perfection takes the fun away.

unrelated

I infer that you are asking if a particular airfree tire is heavier than some unspecified tire that you have in mind.

1. please go to the first post in this thread and click on the first url given
2. click on the tire that interests you
3. at the end of the explanatory paragraph click on More Information. that page will give you specifics as to weight, size etc of that tire.

I march to a different drummer. I think that fixing flats is a pain in the ass.

Unrelated,

Yeah, the poop sheet on the website shows they are definately heavier, but heavier is OK when commuting to work in the dark and the rain (IMHO).

Tom

the Teton AT HP 26x2.0
weighs 1150 grams (x 0.03527 = 40.56 oz = 2.535 lbs)

click here

http://www.airfreetires.com/Bicycle/Legacy/26x20HP.html

then at the end of the explanatory paragraph at More Information there is a detailed description of tire and rim size etc


http://www.airfreetires.com/Bicycle/Legacy/TireData.asp?ProductID=86

Dear Little Big Man,

Not everything is a conspiracy. Your writing style suggests one who has too much time on his hands and to top it off you are dead wrong in everything you wrote in this thread. Not one statement you made is true.

Hundreds of bike shops sell airless tires and several Nu-Teck tires are in the J&B catalog.

Sheldon Brown offers his own take on airless tires, but neglected to mention that 5 of 6 airless tire manufacturers actually make money.

Over 10 million airless tires are meade every year, mostly for the disability industry.

Since wheelchair wheels are the same as bike wheels, the issue of the tire coming off of the rim has never presented itself in the 30 years that the tire has been available. If the tire did come off of the rim, it would have been known years ago. The only way a tire can come off of the rim is if the tire is not properly fitted to the rim. With rims ranging anywhere from 10mm wide to a whopping 40mm wide, it is impossible for one airless to fit them all. Just like with any equipment choices, some knowledge of the product and fitment must be gained. Do you know the difference between a 451 and a 406? Most people don't. Did you know the rim that a bike shop calls 'standard' like a 26 x 1.5 rim can range anywhere from 15-21mm wide?

There is no such thing a standard rim, and the closest the bicycle industry ever got was back in the Seventies when they made a couple of billion bikes with the same rim and even then other rims were in use too.

Five percent of the bike owners in this country purchase about 50% of all replacement rubber bicycle tires. These are people who obviously ride thier bikes. Why are the avid cyclists so eager to dictate to the other 95% just what they should purchase and how they should ride? Because I jog once a week doesn't mean that I have to buy $300 running shoes meant for a world class athlete, but many of the cycling elite will mandate that to 'properly enjoy the cycling experience', one must spend thousands of dollars no matter how little they may ride. Also to suggest that a preventable flat tire should be chalked up to 'doing business' is an affront to those who would prefer not to have a flat.

I could take a run of the mill handlebar and paint it black and drill holes in it and sell it for more, any many would believe that some technological benifit would be there. Yet few understand just how far urethanes have come in the last ten years.

The inline skate industry has over 5,000 urethanes to choose from and most still haven't been used or tested. They come in colors, clear, bouncy, hard, sticky or slick. Everyone would agree that todays' inline skate wheels and skateboard wheels are better today than they were years ago. So why not the airless tire?

For every application that requires a wheel, there is an optimum product. For heavy metal carts, there is the steel caster. For farm tractors and earth moving equipment, the rubber tires are foam filled. For dollies and such, there is the nylon wheel. The point here is that for many an airless tire would be a good choice.

I would agree with many in that if a rubber tire never went flat, then there would be no need for an airless tire. However since it is impossible for a rubber tire to not go flat at some point, it is only natural that people would want an alternative product if no drawbacks were present.

In issues of rolling resistance, many urethanes can already outperform rubber tires. For traction, many urethanes can compare with rubber. Afterall, rubber is a synthetic process that incporporates carbon black and soot. So rubber tires are not all that 'pure and natural'.

All rubber bike tires are imported with most costing around a $1.25 each by the container load. By the time you buy it, it costs more than $20.00. There is practically no technology advances occuring in the rubber tire industry and certainly not to the extent that the car tire makers engage in. So the next time you buy a rubber tire, remember that it came from a factory in India, Thailand, Taiwan, China or Pakistan, made by people who make less than what we outlawed 50 years ago. Rubber bike tire makers are not really interested in making a flat free tire, however if they can convince you that it has some 'flat prevention' properties, you will pay more for it.

Over 40 million rubber bike tires come into this country every year with the bike shops selling about half of them. Since there are only 5,000 or so bike shops, you do the math. There is absolutely no incentive for rubber bike tire makers to reduce the number of product coming into this country by making them better so they last longer.

Another thing that makes no sense is the obsession with the lack of weight on a bike. It is true that a lighter vehicle takes less watts of energy to propel but put things into perpesctive. If a bike with a rider weighs 180lbs and the tires are 700 x 23c at 120 psi with a low rolling resistance (.004crr), then the watts of energy required to propel the bike at 12mph might only be about 200 watts. Add three pounds to the bike and the watts required will be 210. However if you increase the rolling resistance even slightly (.005crr), the watts go up by 40. Addressing things like aerodynamics, rolling resistance and overcoming the tires' tendancy to flatten out make for much more quantifiable gains in performance than by shaving a few grams off of a bike.

So will an airless tire ever look, feel and act exactly like a rubber tire? Probably not, but the airless tire will do the exact same thing a rubber tire does. For a lot of people that is good enough and it is a shame you just couldn't resist the tempatation to poo poo somebodies' recent purchase decision.

Originally posted by pabldb
Dear Little Big Man,

Not everything is a conspiracy. Your writing style suggests one who has too much time on his hands and to top it off you are dead wrong in everything you wrote in this thread. Not one statement you made is true.
Hello pabldb

Welcome to Bikeforums.

It may be handy to know that it's not really good form to make your first post a personal attack against another member.

You are more than welcome to refute any or all of someone else's claims but please do it with a little respect.

We look forward to hearing more from you. Maybe you could drop into the 'Introductions' forum and let us know a little more about you.

Cheers

Originally posted by pabldb


Over 10 million airless tires are meade every year, mostly for the disability industry.

Since wheelchair wheels are the same as bike wheels, the issue of the tire coming off of the rim has never presented itself in the 30 years that the tire has been available. If the tire did come off of the rim, it would have been known years ago.



Wheelchairs and bikes have little in common in terms of how those wheels are used - two wheels used in a parallel arrangement, with the occupied chair having a very low centre of gravity and generally moving at a relatively low speed is different to where a bike has two inline wheels, a high weighted centre of gravity and a higher top speed. Steering is also completely different.


Originally posted by pabldb


In issues of rolling resistance, many urethanes can already outperform rubber tires. For traction, many urethanes can compare with rubber.


I don't doubt that it's possible to use other materials than rubber, although I've not heard of any other vehicle successfully using alternatives. As far as I'm aware motorbikes, cars, trucks etc. still use rubber. I'd be interested in seeing any research results on urethane compared with rubber.


Originally posted by pabldb

There is practically no technology advances occuring in the rubber tire industry and certainly not to the extent that the car tire makers engage in.

Many of the bicycle tyre manufacturers also produce car tyres.


Originally posted by pabldb

So the next time you buy a rubber tire, remember that it came from a factory in India, Thailand, Taiwan, China or Pakistan, made by people who make less than what we outlawed 50 years ago.

Many tyres are made in Europe, but in any case most consumer goods are rightly or wrongly produced where labour is cheap.



Originally posted by pabldb

Rubber bike tire makers are not really interested in making a flat free tire, however if they can convince you that it has some 'flat prevention' properties, you will pay more for it.


I can't see why traditional tyre manufacturers wouldn't be interested in producing flat free tyres, a better tyre increases market share. It's tyre wear not flatting that generally determines when the next tyre needs to be purchased - you don't generally throw away a tyre if you get a flat.


Originally posted by pabldb

Over 40 million rubber bike tires come into this country every year with the bike shops selling about half of them. Since there are only 5,000 or so bike shops, you do the math. There is absolutely no incentive for rubber bike tire makers to reduce the number of product coming into this country by making them better so they last longer.


This is nonsense - see above

Wheelchair wheels are side by side so there are much greater stresses laterally. If something is going to pinch a tire off of a rim, it will be a wheelchair spinning on a dime. Tires running one in front of another like a bike have a completely different set of dynamics. This can be evidenced by the completely different shapes that motorcycle and car tires have.

You riding a bike a couple hours a day in no way will replicate the stresses endured by wheelchair wheels, whose occupants will literally live in the wheelchair 18 hours a day and traversing terrain not all that freindly. This is an affront to the entire wheelchair bound population to assume that that you do something more 'special' on your bike. Also wheelchair bound are not helpless and to say that they have to use airless tires because they are diabled is incorrect.

Urethane has replaced rubber on millions of vehicles. Issues of heat build up prevent urethane from being used in high speed applications. Many scooters have solid tires though.

Since the cubic volume of urethane needed to make the same size tire as one that is air inflated, the cost of the urethane tire will always be more. This limits where the tire can be used at the OEM level because the OEMs aren't about to raise the cost of materials needed to make a product regardless of percieved benifit. Congressional action is usually needed before the OEM will entertain using more expensive componentry.

Again, the bicycle tire makers do not engage in real R&D to the extent that the motorcycle or car tire makers engage in. If there was true R&D, then the $40.00 bike tire would cost $80.00. But wait, just how is it that I can buy either a car tire with a 40,000 mile warranty and a bike tire with no warranty both for $40.00? You know why? Because they found out that you will pay $40.00 for a bike tire, not because it is worth it. Economy of scale doesn't work here because more bike tires are made in the world than car tires.

You are getting ripped off by foreign multinational companies and you are convinced there is no such thing as a substitute. This is a recipe to ensure that innovation comes slowly and that prices will only rise.

A rubber bike tire that lasts longer will only cause the tire maker to sell fewer product in the long run. Sure he could get a bump in market share, but that would quickly erode once his competition comes out with the exact same thing. Rubber bike tire production would decrease as everybodies product lasted longer. The only way to offset the reduction in production is to raise the cost.

So what if a urethane tire may not be as good as what you use. Big whooppee deal! Does that invalidate the airless tire completely for use by others simply because it isn't good enough for you? You people need to quit making equipment choices for others. Your disdain for tire innovation is evident and totally biased threads in this discussion board only point out just how little many people actually know.

I once bought a pair of sneakers that hurt my feet. Did I go online and tell everybody my experience and spend hours trying to talk people out of purchasing that brand? No. You see I am a grown up.

Again we have another post from an individual with very little knowledge of the cycling, wheelchair or tire industry and also is incredibly naive about the way business works. Sorry but you are going to have to try harder and do some research. This is nothing personal, and I don't wish to anger anybody, but several posts are from people who just don't know what they're talking about.

Originally posted by pabldb
This is nothing personal, and I don't wish to anger anybody, but several posts are from people who just don't know what they're talking about.
Exactly. So how do we know that you know what you're talking about?

Can you please supply a source for the information that you are offering? Something concrete that we can all source?

I'm very interested that you told LittleBigMan that "Not everything is a conspiracy" and yet you seem to be claiming that the manufacturers of bike tyres are conspiring against us. Can you give us proof of this conspiracy?

By the way, the tone of the only 2 posts you've made so far has been very heated. Perhaps you'll take my earlier suggestion to drop into the 'Introductions' forum to let us know a bit more about you. What kind of bike do you ride? Are you a commuter or weekend rider? Road or MTB? I'm sure if you gave us all the opportunity to get to know you we wouldn't feel so offended by your angry attitude.

Cheers

Originally posted by pabldb
...Tires running one in front of another like a bike have a completely different set of dynamics.


Which was the point I made


Originally posted by pabldb
...This is an affront to the entire wheelchair bound population to assume that that you do something more 'special' on your bike.


If you are going to accuse me of affronting wheelchair users by assuming that I do something more 'special' on my bike will you please provide a quote - If you read my post I merely pointed out that the design of bikes is completely different to that of wheelchairs.


Originally posted by pabldb
...

Also wheelchair bound are not helpless and to say that they have to use airless tires because they are diabled is incorrect.


I made no such comments - you did read my post didn't you?


Originally posted by pabldb
Urethane has replaced rubber on millions of vehicles. Issues of heat build up prevent urethane from being used in high speed applications. Many scooters have solid tires though.


By 'scooter' do you mean the things kids push along with their feet or do you mean small motorized bikes? At what sort of speeds does urethane have problems?


Originally posted by pabldb

Congressional action is usually needed before the OEM will entertain using more expensive componentry.


Sorry I'm not from the US, I'm not familiar with the concept of a product needing government support to encourage manufacturers to use it.


Originally posted by pabldb

If there was true R&D, then the $40.00 bike tire would cost $80.00.

I assume this is just your wild unsubstantiated estimate of the costs involved in R&D in tyre production rather than being based on any verifiable reports from manufacturers?


Originally posted by pabldb
You are getting ripped off by foreign multinational companies and you are convinced there is no such thing as a substitute.

I don't know of any British bicycle tyre manufacturers, and personally don't care whether I buy from a Dutch company or an American one. As to being 'ripped off' - I currently buy a product at a price that I think is fair that does the job at least as well as stated - what makes this being 'ripped off'?


Originally posted by pabldb

This is a recipe to ensure that innovation comes slowly and that prices will only rise.

I have no problems with innovation, if it provides tangible benefits. I've yet to see any favourable reports from independent sources - such as large cycling magazines. The cycling world is hardly adverse to innovation.


Originally posted by pabldb

A rubber bike tire that lasts longer will only cause the tire maker to sell fewer product in the long run. Sure he could get a bump in market share, but that would quickly erode once his competition comes out with the exact same thing. Rubber bike tire production would decrease as everybodies product lasted longer. The only way to offset the reduction in production is to raise the cost.

So why do some manufacturers produce tyres that last longer than others, and why would makers of an airless tyre be any different to rubber tyre makers?


Originally posted by pabldb

So what if a urethane tire may not be as good as what you use. Big whooppee deal! Does that invalidate the airless tire completely for use by others simply because it isn't good enough for you? You people need to quit making equipment choices for others.

Surely if someone asks for an opion on a product they deserve an honest response?



Originally posted by pabldb

I once bought a pair of sneakers that hurt my feet. Did I go online and tell everybody my experience and spend hours trying to talk people out of purchasing that brand? No. You see I am a grown up.

I would hope if you were a member of a running or leisure forum and someone asked you about that specific sneaker you would be honest about your experiences.


Originally posted by pabldb

Again we have another post from an individual with very little knowledge of the cycling, wheelchair or tire industry and also is incredibly naive about the way business works.

I confess I have little knowledge of the wheelchair industry, as already noted that is irrelevant - I am through having disabled relatives familiar with the basics of wheelchair design which is all I commented on. I think I'm as well read on the cycling business as the average cyclist. With regards to my naivety about the way business works, I do have business experience, and I think to conclude that in a fairly large market with a fair few competitors, increasing market share through a better product rather than producing a product that wears out faster is not that naive.


Originally posted by pabldb

Sorry but you are going to have to try harder and do some research. This is nothing personal, and I don't wish to anger anybody, but several posts are from people who just don't know what they're talking about.

I'd be more than grateful to see your sources of information, to see links to any reviews by independent magazines of airless tyres, and hear how you know so much about the airless tyre business. Many of the contributors to this thread either have worked/work in bike shops or have many miles experience as cyclists. I value their opinions on that basis.

Your post may not be marketing spam, but I'd be grateful to know more about how you've formed your opinions.

Richard

I like Goatbiker's systematic solution to the spoke-fatigue problem. Those Aerospokes are a good long-term solution, and I see his reasons for going airless. :)

pabldb, as a FYI, I don't think so many wheelchairs use solid tires anymore, at least not outside of hospitals. Over the years I've trued a fair number of wheelchair wheels (the side loads break spokes) and I can't remember the last time I worked on one that did NOT have a pneumatic tire. Considering that the spokes may break off in the nipple, requiring the partial removal of the tire to replace the nipple, it is a big blessing to have pneumatic in that situation.

I've also built wheels for ruggers. These gents can annihilate a standard-duty wheelchair wheel in one match. I mean, we're talking 6 to 12 broken spokes, mangled rims... wow! :eek: They also use pneumatic tires.

Originally posted by pabldb
Dear Little Big Man,

Not everything is a conspiracy. Your writing style suggests one who has too much time on his hands and to top it off you are dead wrong in everything you wrote in this thread. Not one statement you made is true.
I have a system at home for dealing with unwanted telephone solicitors: I hang up.

:roflmao:

JOE PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD, it is becoming a flame war (or as close as you get on this forum) and is not going anywhere.

I didnt want to close it, as i dont see it as advertising, but i will close it due to the nature of where it is going...