Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - UL fast-touring? Self-supported RAAM?

I tried asking about this in the Touring group. Didn't work. Let's see if it fits here better.

How is the UL scene doing in road riding? There's an email list / Yahoo group.

Any major news?

I think the self-supported RAAM still stands at 14 days from 1958 by Richard Berg. Is this record apocryphal?

Chris K was organizing such an event but canceled it due to safety concerns, as I recall. Lon H. has said that tired riders and car traffic don't mix and that his Pactours are about the outer limit, at 150 mi days with support. He may be right but it doesn't seem like common sense has ever influenced bikers or record attempters before.

UL has transformed backpacking and mtbiking. How's it doing on the road?

I imagine an aero carbon bike with cushy geometry and 10 lbs of goodies...flying across the land. Call it hyper credit-card touring.

Anyway, any news here?

(Beyond the super Oz dude, Peter Poit [corrected: Peter Neal], just finishing his record run on a lowracer with 300k ave days over 50 days for 15000kms.)

I thought there were a couple of ultralight people in the Touring section.

I'd like to do one of the Pactours. 14 days self-supported sounds pretty impressive.

I was going to put some aero wheels on my rando bike, but decided to put the money elsewhere. I think it would be a pretty good combination.

dupe

ultralight and self-supported don't necessarily go together in terms of extreme distance riding. when they do, they are usually held together by a glue that is made of Unbridled Optimism.

Thought experiment: if you were to try to do a self-supported record setting crossing of the lower 48, what would you pack? spare tubes? spare tires? spare spokes for your aero wheels? spare chain links? chain lube? if you choose to skip any of these, what will you do if the associated parts of your bike fails? Seriously, post this list to the thread, if you can. Don't just wave it away with "10 pounds of stuff" What would you pack?

It's easy to ignore maintenance gear by just saying, "oh, well, if I make sure the bike is perfect before I start, none of this will be a worry." -- similar to the ultralight hiking world where people can reasonably say that they only have to pack a slimmed down first aid kit because they'll just be sensible about avoiding mishaps. And if one were to just take their bike on a 1200k or 500 mile ride, that's probably sensible ... but on a 3,000 mile ride where, presumably, due to time constraints, you will have little time to do much but sleep, eat and ride: it would be naive to imagine that you could get through the entire affair without flats or drivetrain wear.

But unsupported RAAM's aside, what you're talking about is, essentially, randonneuring. While a stereotype exists for the randonneur as a steel frame riding, pseudo-retrogrouch with a bike that's festooned with Carradice and handlebar baggage, there are also a lot of guys who will do these rides with the minimum necessary amounts of gear. And, again, I think it's fine for some think that they can go 500 miles with only, say, 2 spare tubes, an air cartridge and a couple of hex wrenches as their only insurance from disaster, but the further you go, the more fate is tempted and the greater the chance that something will go wrong that will put a premature end to their ride.

There've been some interesting articles in Bike Quarterly that discuss various ways of optimizing bikes and gear loads for lightweight distance riding (ie. swapping out all of your bolts to use the same size hex wrench and thus forego having to pack a multitool with several wrenches; the relative aerodynamics of saddlebags vs trunk racks vs bar bags vs panniers, etc.)

Common sense notwithstanding, nothing is stopping you from just setting out on a bike with a couple changes of clothes, a couple spare tubes, some bags of perpetuem and a map. And if everything in your ride goes perfectly, perhaps you'll even succeed, but given the distance and the time restriction the odds are generally against you.

that's not even getting into the role that a crew or support plays in keeping you sane across the length of the entire event. I mean, do you realize how little sleep RAAM riders receive when they're asked to cross the country in 12 days? It's easy to sit back with a pen and paper and just doodle out what kind of machine can be assembled to make something. It's easy to ignore the human that has to power the machine and what must be asked of them.

(14 days is a pretty tough number to beat and seems a little unrealistic by itself ... do you have evidence of this record? The only hits that I'm getting on Google are old posts you've made to various 'bent forums over the years)

How is the UL scene doing in road riding? There's an email list / Yahoo group.
Uh, so why not check out the Yahoo group then?



Any major news?
What kind of "news" exactly do you expect? ;)

At this point, UL gear has been out for a few years, and improvements are going from shedding pounds to shedding grams. I can't imagine what "news" you expect.



I think the self-supported RAAM still stands at 14 days from 1958 by Richard Berg. Is this record apocryphal?
RAAM started in 1982. At best it's a misunderstanding, at worst it's BS.



Chris K was organizing such an event but canceled it due to safety concerns, as I recall. Lon H. has said that tired riders and car traffic don't mix and that his Pactours are about the outer limit, at 150 mi days with support. He may be right but it doesn't seem like common sense has ever influenced bikers or record attempters before.
I'm gonna guess that if you did 150 miles for multiple days in a row, you'd see a) why RAAM requires full support and b) why the guys who openly push the envelope and excel at it still draw the line somewhere.



UL has transformed backpacking and mtbiking. How's it doing on the road?
It's kinda doing nothing.

Racers and racer wanna-be's go ape for low weight, but the even the most ardent weight weenies understand that weight is not a primary factor when it comes to cycling. It makes zero difference on the flats and a small penalty on climbs. Aerodynamics actually has a much bigger impact on overall cycling performance.

As such, my guess is that in most cases, if you were doing long distances and/or touring you'd do just as well, if not better, by reducing volume and focusing on aerodynamics (e.g. using a single-wheel trailer vs panniers) than by merely cutting weight.

Even keeping that in mind, most randonneurs have other priorities than selecting a "fast bike," and if going unsupported are far more likely to opt for ruggedness and comfort over light weight.



I imagine an aero carbon bike with cushy geometry and 10 lbs of goodies...flying across the land. Call it hyper credit-card touring.
Well.... Yes and no.

Yes in that, theoretically, you could make a carbon touring bike, cut your gear volume and weight to the bare minimum, arrange for specific deliveries along the route and stay in hotels, and potentially go a bit further every day than if you were on a steel bike and 40+ lbs of gear.

More importantly, people already do this. In most cases, they figure out their limits, ditch what they can live without on tour, and carry what they need.

That said, "No" in that certain specific aspects of this are unrealistic.
• I doubt you'd be able to carry UL basics, especially repair gear, in 10 lbs or less (especially when you include the weight of racks and luggage).
• Simply sitting upright (i.e. "cushy geometry") will create far more drag than what you can save by using an aero frame, aero wheels etc.
• Most design choices to enhance performance will cut comfort. After 70-100 miles, it's likely that a lack of comfort will in fact negatively effect your performance.
• If you truly want to "fly across the land," get a recumbent. Or a motorcycle. :D

I say you should start doing doubles and plan to do an ultra event like PBP or the Furnace Creek 500. By the time you actually get to the event, you will almost certainly figure out some of the strengths and weaknesses of an UL approach for those types of rides, and potentially for touring.

There were several people doing fast trans-USA rides prior to RAAM. I think John Marino was one of the first to use support.

During RAAM several years ago (in the '90s?), Wayne Phillips attempted to set an unsupported trans-USA record to go with his trans-Canada ride. He was struck by a van (hit and run) and is now paraplegic. That was the incident that made RAAM mandate support crews.

That would be Peter Heal, known as 'Poiter' because an Aussie TV comedy character.

Actually there has been a lot of progress in UL, though few apply it to bike touring. The gear really isn't a problem, though you may need custom bags to stow it all aerodynamically. A big bag on a seatpost rack, frame bag, and custom bar bag under clipons should do it fine. Be sure to allow space for a 6-pack of Ensure. Of course you'll need at least 4 tubes, spare tire, cables, lube, multitool, but I never go LD without that stuff anyway. Doesn't weigh much or take up much room. Of course you'd use a carbon bike with aerobars and skinny tires. I don't know about carbon wheels. Deep section low count blade spoke aluminum probably makes more sense. You'll want to train with a Camelbak and bottles to cut the frequency of stops and to be able to bridge the dry spots.

It's not about the gear, it's about you. If you're into breaking some record, then listen up to the RAAM rules. That's why they're there. If you want to fast tour across the country, go in mid-June and sleep when it's dark. You'll have plenty of daylight to push yourself to your limits and that'll cut down on your lighting weight, too.

While I agree in sentiment with some of the comments here, and I think 10lbs of kit is pretty tough to get too... the TD racers are going fully self supported, refueling at cafes, grocery stores, and convenience stores, and planning for bike maintenance in specific locations (if nothing breaks sooner) over 2745 miles. No follow cars, no one to meet you on the route. No staffed checkpoints. You are on your own. Yes, you can mail stuff ahead - but you might not make it to the PO, or you might have to wait around for it to open, etc. Route is gravel, dirt, paved, double track, forest service road, a bit of single track. It crosses the continental divide numerous times.

The men's record from Banff, , AB CA to Antelope Wells, NM with 200k of accumulative climbing is 17 days, 23 hours, 37 minutes. Camping, eating, fixing, riding, climbing.

Kit setups and weights range from Matt Lee (record holder) carrying no pack, and everything on the bike - to folks with panniers and packs and all sorts of in between.

Kent Peterson (http://kentsbike.blogspot.com/) (rando rider, car free blogger, generally nice guy) is out on course now, SS. With a fairly minimal kit, and platform pedals.


Seems that the OPs post isn't crazy, or out of line.
A UL road event, self supported, could be a bit more mileage. You might have more options for resupply / repair. You'd have less climbing, less technical riding, less walking in snow, less packing your wheels and bike with mud and slogging for miles on end, etc. etc...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhrtPyr1KQI


And there is the Pony Express Permanent, able to run under RUSA rules...
(http://www.xo-1.org/2009/03/pony-express-rides-again-by-spencer.html)

my kit, for a future fast and light tour.
this was for an s24o shakedown late last fall (got down to ~20 or so overnight) - running in warmer weather i'd be able to leave some heavier clothing out, and for extra capacity add in a jandd frame bag and a wingnut gear hyper (camelback like) for extra water capacity and to stow frequently used layers:

http://littlecirclesvt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/IMG_9412.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_0jkA5M3PGcY/StvHYCI2HYI/AAAAAAAANvA/b2UCTMtMcA0/s800/IMG_9474.JPG

handles great. dyno light up front. room to spare in the epic designs saddle pack... planning to use it this summer for a 2-3 day trip to figure some more things out - including a homemade tarp / bivy setup.

and no, i'll never be in a position to set any sort of record, but i have moved to winnowing down my kit, trying to travel lighter...

These folks are hovering with sub 20 pound kit for self contained touring:
http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/

http://wheelsofchance.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/l_1600_1200_02842619-d7e7-4aa7-8732-fbb703ea6cb8.jpeg

http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.com/

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fI22qBbpkDg/S9GL1lUFtYI/AAAAAAAAAXY/2Qrs3OAVpBY/s1600/ul1.jpg

The UL bike touring folks consider a UL kit to be 12 lbs max, incl. racks. They tour this way. They tend to go rackless. Framepack, bar-burrito, seatpost-burrito and bladderpack (but many TD riders are going without anything on the back).

Replace worn parts at bike shops along the way or via kits you mail forward to yourself.

A RAAM crew seems to run about $15K these days.

Yeah, we'll see more TD type riders point their mission onto the paved roads and back road s and go for a horizontal axis and see what they can do. I'm just surprised it's not already happening more than it is, or more publicly.

I don't know what the TD rigs are weighing in at. They're using UL ideas, but it seems likely that they might have to amp it up a bit, who knows.

I do drop in on the Yahoo group but I'd think their antics would trickle over here into Ultra- and Enduro- cycling, or into a new subforum for Ultralight Touring.

You're right (in a way) that the two vectors -- of UL and long-distance -- don't always go together, but sometimes they do...

I appreciate the pics and other contributions to the thread!

There is a better way to run a race across America.

1. Conduct a ten day "PAC Tour type" fully neutral support ride consisting of ten back to back 200 mile plus days.
Each "RAAM racer" would be require to finish within the prescribed time limit - something akin to 12mph.

2. After ten days and about 2200 to 2400 miles of riding and one rest day - an "all out" fully supported RAAM segment would begin on the "12th day."

3. The all out "RAAM like" segment would be about 800 miles in length using fully "rider/crew self-support" but the last 100 miles would be conducted on a safe, secured non-traffic race course, and the last one-hundred miles the only support could come on each lap in the form of hand ups from crew members at the pit area. (next to the finish line)

This format solves many of the ethical issues surrounding the idea of exercising a person to dementia, and doing it on public roads. RAAM is - as it stands right now - somewhat of a criminal enterprise for a variety of reasons - and those associated with it are directly and or indirectly violating many of the precepts of good sportsmanship and well as various state statutes.

There's nothing noble about pushing a human into a diseased state - and doing it on public roads without respect to life or limb for others who might be involved in related support and public safety activities. (or any public road user in general)

Two-cents worth - additional comments not withstanding.

The UL bike touring folks consider a UL kit to be 12 lbs max, incl. racks.

Who are these UL bike touring folks? Who is making the rules?
They aren't carrying shelter in there, are they?

Credit card. Clothes. Road food. That I think I could get to 12 pounds (I'd have to weigh my bags first!).

Who are these UL bike touring folks? Who is making the rules?
They aren't carrying shelter in there, are they?

Credit card. Clothes. Road food. That I think I could get to 12 pounds (I'd have to weigh my bags first!).UL hiking is around 9 lbs., so an extra 3 lbs. for bike gear. Seems about right. Yes, that includes tent and sleeping bag, but does not include food or water. Summer conditions only at that weight.

ahh. the food and water part had me.

i'd have to weigh my kit. with a 30deg bag and heavy shelter i know its not close... but i'm working on that.

More evidence of what i think is wrong (http://www.durangoherald.com/sections/News/2010/06/15/Support_car_for_cycling_race_topples/) with RAAM

Be sure to read the description of what happened at the bottom of the article......

More evidence of what i think is wrong (http://www.durangoherald.com/sections/News/2010/06/15/Support_car_for_cycling_race_topples/) with RAAM

Be sure to read the description of what happened at the bottom of the article......

Weeeeelllllll . . . while I very much admire the grit of the RAAM riders, and followed the race this year through its Facebook page updates, I do sometimes question the value of a race that sometimes seems as if it's more an exercise in "which rider can best cope with sleep deprivation" than anything else. Still, the accident in this story doesn't seem to me to be a function of anything "wrong with RAAM" -- unless RAAM has some rule that limits how many drivers can be available in a support RV.

A driver falling asleep at the wheel (when there is, or should have been, some additional person on board to share driving duties) is not quite the same thing as one of the solo racers falling asleep and perhaps careening over the centerline into oncoming traffic.

I don't think that most crews have all that much of a sleep deprivation problem. You can fall asleep driving at any time, it's the driver's responsibility to stop when they feel that might happen.

A driver falling asleep at the wheel (when there is, or should have been, some additional person on board to share driving duties) is not quite the same thing as one of the solo racers falling asleep and perhaps careening over the centerline into oncoming traffic.

I'm not sure what is worse - a lone cyclist pushing the limit and falling asleep, or a support vehicle full of sleeping / resting / working crew that ends up wrecking... potentially taking other cars and cyclists with it.

it was a vehicle for a multi-rider team. So even the riders aren't all that tired.

it was a vehicle for a multi-rider team. So even the riders aren't all that tired.

clearly the driver was...

My point is that leaving the race in its current format invites these mistakes or misjudgments.

There is no excuse for this incident. But as it is - RAAM by its nature taxes far too many people in strange ways.

I've driven support when I shouldn't have, and so have hundreds of others over the years. There simply is no way to test or otherwise safeguard both support persons and riders. RAAM has always been an accident waiting to happen.

I'm not sure what is worse - a lone cyclist pushing the limit and falling asleep, or a support vehicle full of sleeping / resting / working crew that ends up wrecking... potentially taking other cars and cyclists with it.

Oh, no question! That's absolutely correct.

My post was prompted by Richard pointing to the RV accident as a "symptom of what's wrong with RAAM." My point (badly made!) was that the scenario of the solo cyclist crossing the centerline is clearly a function of the way RAAM functions -- solo riders must ride on their own, and there is no rest time built into the race (it's just first over the finish line wins, with the clock always ticking), so there is clear pressure on solo riders, inherent in the structure of the race, to push the line on sleep deprivation.

But the scenario of the sleepy RV driver is not *caused* by RAAM's structure, per se, unless, as I noted, RAAM has some weird rule that limits how many available drivers can be present in the RV.

That accident was very simply the fault of the team/crew. There is no excuse for any crew member to be so fatugued that they risk falling asleep at the wheel. Especially one that isn't even directly involved with the race. It doesn't matter if it is a team or a single rider. The driver was cited as he should be. I don't see how this is a result of the RAAM race format. My teammates (not counting crew) have 30+ RAAM crossings between us and we've never had a "sleep at the wheel" issue. If a driver gets sleepy, they should pull over immediately and switch with a fresh one. If there is an ego issue, that person shouldn't be on the crew. On our team there is no discussion, if you are anything close to tired you are not behind the wheel. This a safety issue, simple as that. All teams and riders should have enough crew so that this isn't an issue.

...But the scenario of the sleepy RV driver is not *caused* by RAAM's structure, per se, unless, as I noted, RAAM has some weird rule that limits how many available drivers can be present in the RV.

RAAM has no such rule...

I don't really see how either of the incidents in this year's raam are in any way indicative that there is a problem with the race. I have some reservations about the solo race. The team race looks like something I'd like to try.

I don't really see how either of the incidents in this year's raam are in any way indicative that there is a problem with the race. I have some reservations about the solo race. The team race looks like something I'd like to try.

They don't.

These folks are hovering with sub 20 pound kit for self contained touring:
http://wheelsofchance.org/2010/02/02/ultralight-setup/

...

Going ultralight on a Rambouillet.... isn't that an oxymoron?

To the OP, I'd say do the self-RAAM in 3 weeks on whatever you're riding now, and if you make that then go ultralight and do the same ride over two weeks. I'd hate to see someone put all that money/time into a bike only to DNF halfway through the ride.. best of luck.

Going ultralight on a Rambouillet.... isn't that an oxymoron?

To the OP, I'd say do the self-RAAM in 3 weeks on whatever you're riding now, and if you make that then go ultralight and do the same ride over two weeks. I'd hate to see someone put all that money/time into a bike only to DNF halfway through the ride.. best of luck.

That was before he built up a new rig... sort of the same advice you're giving the OP.
And in the case of going ultralight... my kit can still shed some weight - but the biggest savings (as usual) would be in me...

And, for traveling like this - its not just about the weight. Its about getting things down to the essentials...


:)

But yes, love the mix of the Riv and the push to go lighter.
So glad I put carbon levers on my IF.

First,

Ha! I can't believe how many people are po-pooing this idea!

They couldn't be more wrong on everything from the value of ultralight, the technology and what is humanly possible.

Pay absolutely no attention to the detractors. They know not what they say. :)

I think the idea of an unsupported RAAM (official or unofficial) is a superb idea and have been thinking along the same lines for the last couple years.

First of all I just read about this thread while doing the TransWisconsin.com, just got home here in Michigan from it yesterday evening so I couldn't respond sooner.

The TransWisconsin is a nice counterpoint because it's a 620 mile unsupported mountain bike race across Wisconsin from South to North. The winners did it just a hare over four days. They averaged 160+ miles a day on back roads and off-road. Their skills amaze me.

Lots of serious seasonal roads, atv trails, single track snowmobile trails, rain and hills. Lots of hike-a-bike. A couple roads that didn't exist, a navigational challenge and to top it all of a bridge that didn't exist requiring river fording or a 15 mile detour.

This was the Trans Wisconsin's first year so it was a true adventure. Expect it to be more polished next year but not easier. Next year btw I will take a well seasoned GPS so I can just focus on the riding. Also, I'll know the route. Tremendous advantage. :)

My setup for this was about 41lbs dry weight, 45lbs with water.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4615291196/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4659261666/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4719464109/

The bike itself, A Salsa Fargo weighs almost 30 of that 41lbs. It's not light, even for a mountain touring rig. My gear included absolutely everything including enough water capacity for up to 24 hours, water filtration, first aid, a couple days food, a stove, cook kit and change of food. Truly unsupported though I made ample use of everything from road side parks to the occasional motel. Unsupported racing like touring depends on adaptability and opportunism.

One of the winners as well as two others were riding titanium. One of the two winners also road a cross bike with 35mm though most were riding 26 or 29 by 2.1" or better. No idea how he did it on 35mm given the roughness of roads and terrain. He did blow a rim and had to make a side trip to find a replacement at a local bike shop along the route. Was definitely glad I had 29x2.1's and would consider going bigger given the amount of mud and sand.

Secondly, as we speak Matt Lee is winning the 2700 mile Tour Divide mountain bike race from banff canada to mexico down the great divide (for the eighth time or so). His record for this 2700 mile unsupported off road race is about 14 days. What's more his current carbon fiber rig weighs fully loaded 31lbs!

His full on mountain setup is as light as my own ultralight road touring rig. Absolutely amazing.

My own UL road rig:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4422555632/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4571522634/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4570910405/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4627565733/

So... the RAAM is just 3000 miles if I remember correctly.

So is it possible to do it in less then 14 days. Absolutely!

I'm no "racer" I consider myself "just some guy who likes to take long rides". As such multi-day rides, randonneering and even unsupported racing (or "un-racing" as I like to call it because I "don't race") are a natural progression of my riding.

So can the raam be done in 14 days or less unsupported. Absolutely. All that's lacking is people of the proper caliber to be attracted to the idea. The tech, gear and talent absolutely exists.

Can I do it... ha! almost certainly not in 14 days, nor do I care to go for such a record though I consider it set low. However I love the idea and am ready to go. All I need is the time and the route.

To be specific

1) Does anyone have any idea off hand where I can get a nice accurate GPX file of the route!? Perhaps a good map or google route?

I've otherwise considered doing the Adventure Cycling Associations southern tier in this manner.

Also, I've been looking for a good challenge this winter as I tend to have more time in the winter. I have quite a bit of winter riding experience and quite the love for it.

2) What do you all think? Could the RAAM route be done in the winter!?

Certainly this would be no record setter. We're talking perhaps 30 days if all goes well. But it would be fun and make for great drama, blogging and photographs. :)

The biggest hurdle would to a winter RAAM would be making it through the Rockies before they get bound up with snow.

The second would be the smokies would definitely be snow bound by the time I reached them. If I could get through the rockies going light I could do a mail drop with heavier winter gear before I got into the NE winter.

Would be a hellacious ride. Probably have to take a day or two off here and there just due being snow or storm bound, but hot damn it would be fun and most likely would be doable with only a 30-35lbs setup.

No doubt some will take this post as flame bait. I can hear the detractors now. Partly because they've already voiced their opinions here, but their arguments are just the same age old arguments that have been waged against ultralight backpacking and other forms of lightweight travel since we've broken away from the Victorian age of large scale expeditions.

Going light has redefined all forms of adventure over the last century and off-road touring, pack rafting, and backpacking are only the latest developments and incarnations.

What's more you truly haven't lived until you've done at least a few days touring on a fully self supported setup weighing in at around 30-35lbs. It is an unbelievable lightness of being both figuratively and literally. An amazing sense of freedom. I can and do make regular trips and days averaging 120 miles or more a day. This is not even a chore when traveling light and I expect now to increase that closer to a regular 140 or 150 miles a day this summer.

It is not however all about speed... going light is about having the energy and capacity to ride more hours if you like or the time to stop more to smell the roses, meet people and take side trips.

It's something as beautiful as being able to grab your touring bike and easily swing it over a fence or carry it up a hill or stairs.

UL road touring is even a completely different beast then backpacking. When UL touring in the U.S. you're almost never more then a stones throw from a gas station, a town or a house. Cell phone coverage is fairly reliable. Worst case scenarios such as blowing up a wheel mean at most 24 or 48 hours delay. Absolutely nothing you travel with is "essential" in the sense that you can't live without it or travel without it save the bike itself. The equation is not life or death it's "how unsupported do I want to go".

And on that not I tend to lean much more toward the conservative end of fully self supported then most. It's no mere credit-card touring. Indeed I like to keep required expenses down to about $10 a day just so I've always got room to splurge on anything from a nice restaurant to a hotel on occasion. For me it's all about the freedom to roam, artfully, skillfully and as quick or slow as I like.

The single best way I've heard it put by backpackers is: going ultralight is like going out for a sunday stroll and being able to simply keep going for days or weeks.

BTW, some other resources I highly suggest checking out.

UL biking photo sharing: http://www.flickr.com/groups/ultralightbiking/

Yahoo group: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/ultralightbiking/ - not that active

Bikepacking.net - home of ultralight off road / unsupported mountain biking discussions

If anyone has any other resources to share do tell.

Am seriously looking for a RAAM GPX file or fully detailed RAAM map.

check the RAAM site for maps. It's not too hard to take their web map and put it into mapping software. Here is a link to gps files (http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/raam2.php?N_webcat_id=91)

check the RAAM site for maps. It's not too hard to take their web map and put it into mapping software. Here is a link to gps files (http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/raam2.php?N_webcat_id=91)

Thanks!

Don't have it on my Android Phone / Google GPS yet, but after some gps work i can get it there.

I see the RAAM route comes north into colarado, definitely to far north for any fall or winter attemps. At least not speedy attempts. Would turn into one heck of a snow bike requiring some studded snowtires specialized winter gear maybe even a snow bike. Would be a completely different type of ride. Bummer.

Perhaps I should consider a ultralight speedy attempt of the ACA southern tier instead.

after you get out of California on the RAAM route, it would be a problem in winter. I was following a rider and I was often curious about where they had stopped so I looked on google street view. In many of the locations there was snow.

...
So... the RAAM is just 3000 miles if I remember correctly.

So is it possible to do it in less then 14 days. Absolutely!...

I think you may be a little optimistic for a self supported race. I'm a little on the fence but I think it'll take longer.


...
2) What do you all think? Could the RAAM route be done in the winter!? ...

You'll never get over the passes in Colorado in winter. Some of them are over 10,000ft. (Wolf Creek, La Veta and the other one I can't think of at the moment. :))

Don't forget about all the nasty weather and winds you'll run into all the way across the US. The winds in the Midwest are bad enough in the summer! Concentrate on the mountains too much and you'll get seriously hurt in the mid west. Remember it's 1/3 of the distance across the US and it isn't necessarily easier than the mountains. I think attempting it in the winter would be a very big mistake. Riding on any narrow road in the country by yourself can be fairly dangerous but add limited visibility due to weather and it's a recipe for disaster. If you do something like this I'd stick to the summer where the bad weather is limited.

You'll never get over the passes in Colorado in winter. Some of them are over 10,000ft. (Wolf Creek, La Veta and the other one I can't think of at the moment. :))

I couldn't agree more upon reviewing the route.

Of course one could ride it in the winter, but it'd be more like doing the iditarod. One might end up walking a few hundred miles in snow or even waylaid for days. Definitely not the way raam was intended. :)

What highways does the route take through Colorado? Country roads are actually quite well plowed in that state, if they're open. I'd be more worried about crossing the Midwest when major blizzards are possible. Ever been on a frozen Interstate in Nebraska? Scary.

I still wouldn't want to cross Wolf Creek in the winter. It got down in the 30's for some of the RAAM riders.

Maps are at this link (http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/raam2.php?N_webcat_id=7)

There is even a google earth flyover at that link, sounds like fun

Cyclists are a weird bunch. If you people can't see a problem with an event that has everyday people driving unfamiliar vehicles, on unfamiliar roads, all night long with little very little rest for ten days that what's the use? I mean this is weird......

Cyclists are a weird bunch. If you people can't see a problem with an event that has everyday people driving unfamiliar vehicles, on unfamiliar roads, all night long with little very little rest for ten days that what's the use? I mean this is weird......

I take it that you're opposed to endurance and ultra cycling. And anything else beyond your skill level... ?

"Very little rest" is completely subjective. Do you mean "little rest" in terms of you or them?

I suspect that the riders in these events could pass safety tests just fine.

Even when Jure Robic gets nutty he can still safely handle his bike. And, of course, most hard-striving riders don't push as much as he does. These riders are adults. If they get too tired they rest until they're safe again. Their abilities are just developed (and genetically) beyond the typical. But all this seems obvious. So, maybe I'm missing your point?

I'd say that people shouldn't put others in positions of danger or put anything on them at all. We shouldn't make it more likely that someone will have to go out of their way to help us. I say that many sports people -- and businessmen!!! -- totally violate this standard of decency.

But I don't think that ultra riders necessarily are, or are worse than usual offenders. I'm pretty confident that a self-supported rider of ANY kind is by definition among the safer in any situation. Support brings on so many more issues -- complexity and the notion of needing help in the first place!

Armchair folks -- or even locals -- who say "you can't safely bike this pass in winter" are just begging for bikers to show them they can. They'll develop both the skills and equipment to defeat that naysaying just like they do so many others. Or at least they'll find the limits for themselves or the status quo. But that doesn't mean they'll be unsafe in so doing.

I take it that you're opposed to endurance and ultra cycling. And anything else beyond your skill level... ?



RC is anything but against endurance and ultracycling.
RAAM has become, on some levels, a sleep deprivation event. This includes the crew on some levels...

RC is anything but against endurance and ultracycling.
RAAM has become, on some levels, a sleep deprivation event. This includes the crew on some levels...

Ah, OK.

I changed what I wrote so I don't overstate my case, then. But I left the gist of it.

I often hear the "sleep deprivation" label. It seems overly dismissive. Sure, sleeping less than WE usually do looks like part of it -- but who knows what they're used to -- and to an extent it's a skill area that can be trained. If they're a hazard, that's bad and they need to be pulled, stopped, etc.

An accident due to sleepy driver is by no means limited to or even more likely among RAAMers and crew. It's pretty common in general. It would be bad if there's a pattern there, though. I'd hope there's oversight plus commonsense responsibility going on. I mean, it has to be a legal obligation.

Risk in sport -- and everything else -- is a big deal across the board, though. Everyday car drivers are vastly under-trained in the USA. Everyday boaters even moreso! What about repetitive or otherwise unduly stressful workplace practices? If we had commonsense standards on so many of our activities we'd HUGELY reduce the social cost, trauma and tragedy. No reason to single out poor little ol' RAAM.

Cyclists are a weird bunch. If you people can't see a problem with an event that has everyday people driving unfamiliar vehicles, on unfamiliar roads, all night long with little very little rest for ten days that what's the use? I mean this is weird......

I think your perspective may be skewed by an experience on a poorly run team. People drive unfamilar vehicles on unfamiliar roads all the time. How difficult is it to get in a mini van and drive it. Even if you are unfamiliar with the vehicle at the start of the race, you shouldn't be unfamiliar with it at the end of day one. Navigation on the RAAM route is very basic and not complicated at all (except possible through Flagstaff where it's a bit of a PITA). That is also why you have a driver and a nagavator in each vehicle.
For any crew member to have "very little rest" is a result of poor planning on that particular team, not an inditment of the race. It's not complicated and it's not dangerous if you do it properly.

My point is that leaving the race in its current format invites these mistakes or misjudgments.

There is no excuse for this incident. But as it is - RAAM by its nature taxes far too many people in strange ways.

I've driven support when I shouldn't have, and so have hundreds of others over the years. There simply is no way to test or otherwise safeguard both support persons and riders. RAAM has always been an accident waiting to happen.

This solo rider has just rode 299 miles with 3 @ 20 minute stops.
She rode 272 miles the previous day.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=409105274524&oid=112656082084820

picked up on this thread after some searches....
just thought i would announce i am going for a self-supported time trial of the raam route. leaving june 13th. this is leg 2 of my No Idle Tour. check it out. www.noidletour.org (http://www.noidletour.org) and www.jaypsdirt.com (http://www.jaypsdirt.com) "friend" and "like" them for updates on facebook. i will also be carrying a gps spot locator that will be up and running on www.trackleaders.com (http://www.trackleaders.com) where you can see my progress 24/7.
stop idling and start riding!
-JayP

Howdy Jay! Of course I have been following your no idle tour, loving every second and hanging on every word of your and tracey's iditarod.

I didn't reallize you were doing RAAM self-supported style!? I'd assumed you were doing it all official since you took first at that RAAM qualifier. I assume then this is not RAAM officially "blessed"? This is exactly the sort of thing I was dreaming of. I love it when things stay grass roots, close to the ground, accessible. Before one needs a 10k bike and a 10k budget and a team of people and the organizers need waivers, and insurance. Occasionally you just need to cut through the tape and start a new. To revitalize and make it accessible to a new generation. What I love best about unsupported racing is it's a brotherhood and it doesn't need anyone's permission. Just the mutual love of organizers and riders. I could say "just show up and ride" but we all know it's anything but that for riders and organizers.

Would love to here how you're handling logistics. Camping? Hotels? Bivying? Restaraunt to restaraunt? Would love to see your rig. But I can and will be waiting and following every word and picture on your facebook and website.

Reading your blog post. I'm so excited! BTW, I saw you mention a smart phone. They're good and bad. I took an android incredible with the biggest battery upgrade I could find on a month long trip down the eastern divide this last january. I still had to stop once a day for at least an hour to charge it. I could get at least 48 hours of very heavy use without charging, but this was the middle of january on the divide so I think it'd be safe to say it could go three days in summer. Especially if you switch it to airplane mode when not uploading. I then used a service called posterus.com and it's android app to send pics/videos/text posts to all my services indluding flickr, youtube, my blogger.com blog, facebook and twitter. Worked fairly well. In summary. Such a device could keep you very connected. The RAAM route probably has pretty good coverage. BUT it has to be the first thing out of your bag every time you make a stop. Plug it in... then use the restroom, get food, etc, etc. It's the only way to keep the damn things charged without taking prolonged rest stops. That is unless you deal with some sort of $250 multi-wat solar rig (I wouldn't trust the trickle chargers) or a dynamo hub. All these things are fundamentally going to distract you and slow you down though. :( The latest gen of smart phones have no better battery life. FYI, they do like mine shoot 8mpx photos, 720 HD video, and have decent data support. I did btw, upload multiple short videos on my January trip down the appalachians and that with consistently spotty coverage. You should have much better coverage. Anyway, I'd love to be able to follow you via facebook via text posts, vidoes, and photos as you ride and would be happy to provide any technical assistance. It's not perfect tech but it as a mass communications tool it is there and is as slackware as one could hope for.

BTW, I continue to use posterus, it makes a sort of tumble blog while updating to other services. Here's my posterus tumble blog: http://mmeiser.posterous.com/