"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Break Question

I am new to bike racing, I've done 6 races so far and am really enjoying it.

I am doing my 7th race soon, a road race, and I want to try to be a bit more aggressive. I believe my fitness is at a point where I can try some attacks/breaks.

My questions is: when I decide to go OTF to try and form a break do I go flat-out 100%? If I get caught is it best to try to filter to the back to recover?

Thanks....

Yes you need to jump 100% to establish the gap.

If you get caught, do whatever you need to do to stay in the race. Then try again.

Yes you need to jump 100% to establish the gap.

If you get caught, do whatever you need to do to stay in the race. Then try again.

incorrect.

incorrect.

123% ? ;)

123% ? ;)

There are a number of ways to get off the front, they aren't all 100% all out attacks. In many instances (especially int he lower cats) this can be your doom because you look threatening if oyu attack 100%.

i was jokingly friendlily nudging Mr. Botto for a continuance to his reply...

i've been successful at getting away this year many times...just can't hold it out there and stay away like i could decades ago.....yet. :)

..and yeah, sneaky is better in the 4/5's

some of the best breaks I've been in were the result of "accidental gaps"

if you go 100% to get a gap, and keep going max to hold the gap, what are you gonna do when the chase group comes up to you and you have nothing left?

what's your plan for the attack? will you be able to solo away from the field? or do you want to linger out there and hopefully draw out a couple guys to join you?

also, much depends on when you attack. when the pack sits up, it's easy to keep momentum and roll off the front, real casual-like, no particular effort, then gradually notch up the throttle.

going up a hill, everybody will be going hard and watching for attacks, but if you're the strongest climber that's the place to go.

crosswinds, same deal, if you're the strongest rouleur, that's the place to hit it.

etc

I got a huge gap on saturday just by waiting until the pack had tired themselves out chasing another break. as soon as we slowed after swallowing him up, I went. no response. It was far from 100%. If the right people had bridged to me I think we would have won. Didn't happen though.

Thanks. My goal in this race is just to try to mix it up more. I would like to think that I could go solo for the last lap and get the W, but the reality is probably not.

I guess I'll just try some different methods to see which one works best. The sneaky option sounds like my best bet, I'll save the 100% flat-out sprint if I can't get a break any other way.

Seems like timing is just as important as intensity...

attack when the race is hard. if it's hard for you, it's hard for just about anyone, whoever it isnt hard for is someone you want with you in the break. best places to attack are typically over the top of a climb, not the bottom, not the middle, but over the top. in lower categories the typical hill is hammered at the bottom and practically soft pedaled over the top because everyone is hurting, needs to recover, and everyone just sits on wheels. that's go time.

going "100%" i dont know what that means unless there's a reference point connecting effort to time relative to the critical power you can generate over that time. but generally, if you go 100%, you'll crack yourself. go the maximum intensity you can hold to 1) get away; then 2) stay away. if you were to plot your effort on a graph, it should look like an M. a sufficient effort to get your gap (left side of the M), a settle in hard for however long needed, and a pop for the finish. a former coach who strongly advocated very aggressive racing always told me to go 99% unless the finish line is in sight, then grow fangs and thrash yourself.

I'm not fit enough to attack when the race is hard. I have to wait until it's eased up a bit, but usually, if it was going fast for a while, I'll have some reserves built up.

A good time to attack is when the front is all fragmented, maybe after a prime when some guys are coming back and the guys who just chased are pulling off. It gets a bit confusing before everyone gathers themselves up.

Noodling off the front is extremely effective. Go up the "other" side of the road (away from everyone), stay seated, bob a lot, and look like a Cat 5 (ahem). A former Cat 3 teammate (who taught me much of what I know) would do this and simply ride away from the field. He wasn't as gifted as some others so he'd rarely stay away for the race, but he could pick up primes and such.

Other break away tips - shift quietly. Minimal body language. Average cadence (not 120 rpm, not 60). Keep upper body relaxed (tensed up arms = huge effort). Don't look back much. Look down to see if anyone is on your wheel. If there's a crosswind, ride where no one can sit in (if wind is from right, sit on left curb - exception is if everyone is on left curb, noodle away on the right).

One of the things you can do to work on the breakaway thing is to make a relatively hard effort and then try and settle into a TT mode (on training rides). You can make an effort, say, over a short power climb - stand, big gear, etc, but not sprinting to the top. Then as you crest you work to maintain speed. If you don't go over the edge with the initial effort you can settle into a TT type mode after a short bit (10-30 seconds). That short bit will hurt though.

When I go on the attack (usually to bridge to a break) I'll go maybe 80-90% perceived effort as far as the jump goes (i.e. % of max power), then go about 110% of TT effort (i.e. FTP) until I bridge. I give myself about 1/2 to 1 mile before I'm done. Once at the break I'll try and recover. Sometimes I never do.

But in reality my jumps are sometimes as hard as a sprint (1200+ watts). I'll do 400-550 watts for a brief time when bridging (FTP=250w). But my perception is that I'm going easier.

For actually breaking away and staying away... I've never really done that. I blow up at some point - I've gotten shelled out of breaks even if I went with it initially (no bridge effort) and never took a pull (sitting in 100%).

cdr

I'm not fit enough to attack when the race is hard. I have to wait until it's eased up a bit, but usually, if it was going fast for a while, I'll have some reserves built up.

A good time to attack is when the front is all fragmented, maybe after a prime when some guys are coming back and the guys who just chased are pulling off. It gets a bit confusing before everyone gathers themselves up.

Noodling off the front is extremely effective. Go up the "other" side of the road (away from everyone), stay seated, bob a lot, and look like a Cat 5 (ahem). A former Cat 3 teammate (who taught me much of what I know) would do this and simply ride away from the field. He wasn't as gifted as some others so he'd rarely stay away for the race, but he could pick up primes and such.

Other break away tips - shift quietly. Minimal body language. Average cadence (not 120 rpm, not 60). Keep upper body relaxed (tensed up arms = huge effort). Don't look back much. Look down to see if anyone is on your wheel. If there's a crosswind, ride where no one can sit in (if wind is from right, sit on left curb - exception is if everyone is on left curb, noodle away on the right).

One of the things you can do to work on the breakaway thing is to make a relatively hard effort and then try and settle into a TT mode (on training rides). You can make an effort, say, over a short power climb - stand, big gear, etc, but not sprinting to the top. Then as you crest you work to maintain speed. If you don't go over the edge with the initial effort you can settle into a TT type mode after a short bit (10-30 seconds). That short bit will hurt though.

When I go on the attack (usually to bridge to a break) I'll go maybe 80-90% perceived effort as far as the jump goes (i.e. % of max power), then go about 110% of TT effort (i.e. FTP) until I bridge. I give myself about 1/2 to 1 mile before I'm done. Once at the break I'll try and recover. Sometimes I never do.

But in reality my jumps are sometimes as hard as a sprint (1200+ watts). I'll do 400-550 watts for a brief time when bridging (FTP=250w). But my perception is that I'm going easier.

For actually breaking away and staying away... I've never really done that. I blow up at some point - I've gotten shelled out of breaks even if I went with it initially (no bridge effort) and never took a pull (sitting in 100%).

cdr

or in other words: buy shimano. ;)

Heh. Well, it doesn't help to slam the chain into the 12T.

That same teammate that taught me a lot, we were on a group ride out in the country, maybe 10-12 of us. We were attacking each other for a bit but then calmed down. Long, straight, level road, no traffic, everyone kind of in their own zone trying to recover. Mike H (teammate guy) was at the front, not really pushing, but he'd been one of the more active attackers and chasers.

I rolled up just behind and next to Mike. As I got there I slammed the chain into my little cog (11? 12? 13? I forget what era it was). Mike literally jumped in his saddle and automatically stood up to respond to "the attack". Then he realized no one was doing anything and he looked over. I was kind of laughing and he was like, "You bastard!"

Heh.

incorrect.

Well I'm talking about the first 5-20 seconds of the jump... if you try to go at 80% during that time the pack will come with you. You're saying those first seconds shouldn't be at 100%? Really?

I've seen guys initiate breaks just by taping out a slightly higher pace than everyone else on fairly easy climbs.

Well I'm talking about the first 5-20 seconds of the jump... if you try to go at 80% during that time the pack will come with you. You're saying those first seconds shouldn't be at 100%? Really?I think the point is you need to go at a time when the pack, for whatever reason, won't chase. If the pack wants to chase and they know you're a strong rider they will not let you go regardless of whether you jump at 80 or 100%.

I think the point is you need to go at a time when the pack, for whatever reason, won't chase. If the pack wants to chase and they know you're a strong rider they will not let you go regardless of whether you jump at 80 or 100%.

I hope all my opponents limit their attacks-initiations to 80%, this will make it super easy to grab their wheel on the way away from the pack!

WR, gimme some help here.. I'm sure 1500w isn't 100% for you, but don't you give it your all to initiate a gap? Am I going crazy here? wtf

I hope all my opponents limit their attacks-initiations to 80%, this will make it super easy to grab their wheel on the way away from the pack!

WR, gimme some help here.. I'm sure 1500w isn't 100% for you, but don't you give it your all to initiate a gap? Am I going crazy here? wtf

Dude this is basic strategy. If you time the attack correctly (so everyone's tired), and don't make it super obvious what you're doing no one's going to bother chasing you anyways. That doesn't mean you have to do it this way, it's just one way you can get OTF... I don't understand what you're missing.

Part of how hard you have to go is when this is during the race.

You want to launch at 1k to go, a la WR? 100%

You go at 5 or 8 to go? Probably closer to 80%

I've taken off with 800-900 watt "attacks". At Bethel I could move up pretty hard at 800 watts, meaning if I felt like it that could have been an "attack".

I've realized that I'm not very good at the 600-800 watt efforts - for whatever reason I can't stay in that mid-range power band. I have to go lower (up to say 500) or higher (800+). I'd rather soft pedal then punch it, rather than make a 650 watt effort, at least that's what it seems like.

cdr

Well I'm talking about the first 5-20 seconds of the jump... if you try to go at 80% during that time the pack will come with you. You're saying those first seconds shouldn't be at 100%? Really?

Depends. I've just kind of rolled off the front. Now that you are a 3, you may find yourself in races where everyone doesn't immediately jump on everything that moves an inch off the front.

Dude this is basic strategy. If you time the attack correctly (so everyone's tired), and don't make it super obvious what you're doing no one's going to bother chasing you anyways. That doesn't mean you have to do it this way, it's just one way you can get OTF... I don't understand what you're missing.

After pondering this important 33 issue, I think I'm just confusing a 1k-attack with attacks in general.

Having said that, I think umd is right that it also might have to do with where I've been (the 4/5's) - they'll chase anything if it looks possible, so when I attacked I made sure I opened a big gap, then eased into a tempo.

Depends. I've just kind of rolled off the front. Now that you are a 3, you may find yourself in races where everyone doesn't immediately jump on everything that moves an inch off the front.

1+ In most races, an attack isn't successful because it forces a break, it's successful because it is let go. The exception to this is in races where the terrain forces a selection. In the 3's and higher, breaks figure into the race because people are willing to let them go and chase later. The break succeeds when the pack miscalculates somehow, either the timing of the chase, or the willingness to put a chase together.

Contrast in the 4/5s, where breaks are almost never let go. If they work, it's because the guys in it are vastly stronger than the guys doing the chasing. This is seldom the case, so breaks don't really figure into 4/5 racing.

Well I'm talking about the first 5-20 seconds of the jump... if you try to go at 80% during that time the pack will come with you. You're saying those first seconds shouldn't be at 100%? Really?

when you have more than 1.5 seasons under your belt, you'll realize that it depends.

1+ In most races, an attack isn't successful because it forces a break, it's successful because it is let go. The exception to this is in races where the terrain forces a selection. In the 3's and higher, breaks figure into the race because people are willing to let them go and chase later. The break succeeds when the pack miscalculates somehow, either the timing of the chase, or the willingness to put a chase together.

Contrast in the 4/5s, where breaks are almost never let go. If they work, it's because the guys in it are vastly stronger than the guys doing the chasing. This is seldom the case, so breaks don't really figure into 4/5 racing.

This should go into the Sticky on Road Racing.

This should go into the Sticky on Road Racing.

why? It's wrong. I won 3 races plus a podium as a 4/5 and every one was on a break.

2 guys, beat him in the sprint
2 guys, dropped him on the final climb
8 guys, someone attacked the break, 3 guys, dropped one, 2 guys, I beat him in the sprint.
6 guys, we dropped 3, I got beaten in the sprint, got 3rd.

The first two happened in northern california, the last two in Colorado.

oops, forgot another one... 2 guys on the first lap of a 4 lap race, 1 more bridged. all 3 of us stayed away, I lost the sprint, got 3rd.

this one is of special note because it was a 3/4 race and i was a 4 at the time. I absolutely wasn't the strongest of all the guys in the pack, but I was smart/ballsy/lucky enough to be involved in the winning break.

why? It's wrong. I won 3 races plus a podium as a 4/5 and every one was on a break.

2 guys, beat him in the sprint
2 guys, dropped him on the final climb
8 guys, someone attacked the break, 3 guys, dropped one, 2 guys, I beat him in the sprint.
6 guys, we dropped 3, I got beaten in the sprint, got 3rd.

The first two happened in northern california, the last two in Colorado.

Obviously you are fairly strong relative to the field. I believe I covered that. Good luck in the 3's.

I just upgraded to the 2's. The point was that as a 4 (and 5) I was not "vastly stronger" than the other guys i was racing against, I just went at the right time, with the right people, and not enough people wanted to work to chase. I also failed plenty of times. People are often lazy/scared/conservative in the lower categories and I exploited that. I think the OP should try it too. That was the intention of my post, to encourage attacking, forming breaks, and trying to win from those breaks. I love winning that way, and I think he should try it too.

I would point out that "vastly stronger" racers don't think they're vastly stronger. They just think the other racers are lazy, unmotivated, dumb, etc. I'm not saying that's what you think, I'm just saying that in general. I've had teammates and friends ask why I didn't join them, why I didn't follow the move, why this, why that. It's because I couldn't, not because of any "tactical" reason.

I categorize myself as NOT "vastly stronger". Other racers simply don't believe that I average 200-220 watts for a relatively hard crit with a hill in it. When I have a lot left in a race I'm averaging maybe 160-180w (figure a 26 mph avg speed crit, and, yeah, maybe a hill in it). A 220w avg means I'm totally cooked at the finish. If you had to race with a 220w "average power cap" you'll realize how limiting that is.

A friend that crashed at Somerville this year (Cat 3s) felt that he could have placed well. I thought, "Yeah, whatever, keep dreaming - I was totally tweaked for 2 laps and couldn't get more than one downstroke down in the sprint." He claimed, on the other hand, that he was well below threshold, felt fine, felt fresh - he was 4 wheels behind me when the 3rd wheel behind me swerved hard, causing him to fall. I seriously didn't believe him about how he felt - he was describing a 160w avg race to me, but I was absolutely and totally redlined. So, for a while he's been off his bike because he had a bad concussion at Somerville and his S-Works was destroyed. He's on a borrowed too-small frame that dates back to the early 90s (5 or 6 lbs alum frame with carbon stays). Yet in Harlem he got 6th (led out sprint from way out), and in a crit Sunday he led out from like 400m and got 2nd. After those two places I realized that, yeah, he probably would have done awesome at Somerville.

The fact that you just upgraded to the 2s indicates that you are vastly stronger than many other racers. You're better than I ever got in 27 years of racing. And you did it in Colorado, which is a cycling hotbed.

That's not to discourage the vastly stronger from attacking. But the vastly stronger ought to acknowledge that, yes, it does take a few more than, say, 220 watts average to stay away from a field. I'm betting on something like 300-350 watts average based on my (admittedly limited) break experience this year. And 300-350w explodes me in about 2 minutes. Two Tuesdays ago I got into a group in a practice crit (the actual training race was canceled but about 30 of us showed up to ride anyway). The guy at the front, a 2, pulled for a lap or two - hanging on put me into the red. He looked back, saw me hanging on for dear life, then did a massive jump. I couldn't respond and he knew it.

cdr

why? It's wrong. I won 3 races plus a podium as a 4/5 and every one was on a break.

2 guys, beat him in the sprint
2 guys, dropped him on the final climb
8 guys, someone attacked the break, 3 guys, dropped one, 2 guys, I beat him in the sprint.
6 guys, we dropped 3, I got beaten in the sprint, got 3rd.

The first two happened in northern california, the last two in Colorado.

i agree with you on the tactis of lower category racing. being aggressive and committing to it can get you alot of results because the only way you're coming back is if you go backwards. the pack doesnt know how to chase you. cat 3 fields rarely know how to chase very effectively, it more just kind of happens. however, it's really hard to do (at any level) unless you've got the legs. terrain helps if you're suited to it.

I would point out that "vastly stronger" racers don't think they're vastly stronger. They just think the other racers are lazy, unmotivated, dumb, etc. I'm not saying that's what you think, I'm just saying that in general.

cdr

I'll admit I may be guilty as charged in this, but I was on the other end of it in a race this weekend. A guy went up the road solo on a hill and had 4 minutes on the group at the summit. He's obviously a better climber, but we had the best 3 of the 4 best TTers in the state back in the group for the headwind false flat up for the last 12 miles to the line. Nobody else was willing to help me chase, and I sure as hell wasn't going to do it alone and drag their asses to the line. Result, solo guy won the race by 2:30 while the group just doddled. I took another 90 seconds out of him on the 10 mile TT the following day, but he still won the stage race.

Obviously my n=1 example can not speak to the amateur scene for the entire country, but it is one case where a strong climber, but relatively weaker TTist was able to stay away from a group full of diesels because we were collectively lazy/unmotivated/dumb etc.

CDR, I race about 3 crits a year, and I suspect you race about that many road races with hills in them, so we may be coming from completely different sports (RR vs. Crit) when discussing tactics.

I do tons of hill races, and tactics are pretty much out the window except in the masters. the strong guys form a group after the first big hill and it gets smaller until the end where they sprint. I don't like calling it a "breakaway". more like "the remaining group".

CDR, I race about 3 crits a year, and I suspect you race about that many road races with hills in them, so we may be coming from completely different sports (RR vs. Crit) when discussing tactics.

Road races definitely require a "minimum fitness" that crits seem to ignore. This is my saving grace, else I'd be a Cat 5 right now. Okay, a bad Cat 4.

The last road races I did were in 1997 (I did them infrequently for 13 years before that). In '97 I finished so far off the back I was eliminated from the rest of the stage races in two of them. 30 min down at Olean NY (60 mile RR), and I beat two guys in the opening TT because one got hit by a truck and broke a leg and the other flatted. 45? minutes down at Fitchburg MA, and they made me get in the First Aid tent when I got to the finish, I looked that wasted. I almost got lapped at the Barkhamsted RR CT (now known as Tokeneke) - that's a 20-odd mile loop, got shelled on the second hill after the dam. I did 3 laps while the others did 4.

Last year one of the women on the group ride visited me at work. Asked if I was really trying hard when they shelled me on the group ride the other night. I don't think there was a single racer in the group, and everyone there thought of me as "fast". I was absolutely maxed but everyone rode away from me. I admitted as much.

When I say I have difficulty climbing, I mean I really have difficulty climbing.

So when I can win or place top 6 in a crit, even with a moderate hill in it, it's because of tactics, like strategy tactics, not like "then drill it, kill them" tactics. The former is like chess - opponents have similar strengths, it's the use that matters. The latter is like, oh, I don't know, something where the odds are astoundingly in favor of one side. Maybe shooting paper targets. The only rider who can make a mistake is the strong one. I'm the paper target. The strong riders are the gun. At least for breaks, climbs, and any small group situation.

Depending on my fitness, I either can't make a mistake at all or I can make maybe 1 or 2 mistakes a race. But strong riders, I watch them ride in ways that would destroy me in a lap or two and they're still around, lap after lap after lap. Maybe not smart but very, very strong.

Normally I can't be messing around hammering at the front. This year, one of my best years ever, I attacked on a hill in a crit (Bethel). I caught a guy, we each did a turn or so, and then we got caught. 16 guys got away in a counter, and a couple super strong guys (one is a local TT record holder) really drilled it to get the gap up. I couldn't go so I had to wait and pray we could bring it back. Then, once we got going, even with 4-5 committed guys chasing we were losing 5 or so seconds a lap.

Video of that race:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsVJNE28Egk

Admittedly I have a good jump (not sprint, just jump) if I'm not cooked - then I'm the gun and the field is the paper target. I use that strength to my advantage. However, if guys who are more fit simply work super hard during a race and make the race hard, I can't sprint when I get to the finish. Paper target for the whole race.

cdr