Foo - Me needs help from you electrician type folks

so- it's hot out:cry:


we haz an air conditioner.:)


but we can't use it:cry::cry::cry::cry:



why?



we live in a 1 BR apt.

The AC is installed in a LR window. Right near the window is a 220v outlet (The building super checked the voltage - it has two slanted slits at the top and one straight slit at the bottom center).

But our AC is 110v (15A), with a regular 3-prong plug (Type B?).

The closest three prong 110v outlet is about four feet beyond the AC's cord, so we have been using an extension cord. It is a bit long (12'), and the basic indoor cord for large appliances (not a lamp cord - it is the same as the AC's cord, 14 gauge, SPT3).

The problems:

1. Apparently, the living room's sockets and the kitchen are all on the same circuit.

We have about five circuits in our box; when the AC is used with the TV or even a small kitchen appliance (toaster, coffee machine), it trips the circuit breaker.


2. My wife noticed the AC's power cord and the extension cord get really hot when the AC has been on for no more than an hour (they feel warm very soon after starting it up...this doesn't seem to happen when it;s just the intake fan on, only when the cooling setting is used).

Recently the AC just shut off one night. no circuit break, the unit just stopped.

The next day it started up again, so I am guessing the cord just got too hot?

If we have to just live without AC in this apt. I'd prefer that to dying in an electrical fire. But I'm pissed - with five circuits, why are the LR and kitchen on the same 20A circuit?? What the hell are the other circuits for? One for the bathroom? One for the bedroom? There's hardly anything at all in those rooms, besides a lamp.:crash:

Some have suggested using our AC with a new 12 gauge or 10 gauge extension, and a shorter one (6'?).

Others say the extension cord is irrelevant and it is the apartment's wiring that is at fault. One person told me Code states the kitchen must by law be on its own circuit and we should call the landlord and have them rewire it for safety.

Another thought - I am guessing the 220 v socket might be on its own circuit? Is there any way to tell from the circuit breaker box?

If it is, I am tempted to just go out and buy another AC - 220 v and use that!

Or, can we use a converter (http://www.dvdoverseas.com/store/index.html?loadfile=catalog6_0.html) and an adapter (for the three-prong to 220v outlet) to use our AC with the 220v outlet?

I will add that this is an older building (1930s) in an historic neighborhood, where they won't let you upgrade or change certain things, at least cosmetically speaking.

We do have mostly three-prong outlets but there are at least three or four two-prong outlets scattered around the apartment, and there is another odd plug on the opposite side of the window from the 220v one I described above.

I trust my super telling me he checked the 220 v one but he didn't seem too concerned about the kitchen being on the same circuit (he didn't know it was till I told him). he also checked the AC by plugging it into the 3-prong outlet with a cheap power strip we had laying around, which I thought was a big no-no?

I am not an electrician. I wonder if something like this would work?

http://www.starkelectronic.com/st500.htm

what's the total power usage on all those devices?

the step down adaptors will work.

Doh! I did not see you had linked to a step down converter already Pgoat.

I'm NOT an electrician but I think it might be possible to re-wire the 220 plug to 110 plug. Check with and use a qualified electrician to do the change,reduces the liability factor, rather than using a cobbled together system. My belief is that the landlord would be agreeable to this as the only changes should be in the plug box and maybe at the panel and everything would be reverseable if needed in the future.

Get a 220V AC unit, easiest for everybody, the apartment already is circuited for it.

I absolutely won't be doing any work myself, I just don't know anything about this stuff.

I do wanna bug the landlord but just want to get my facts straight first. I think the problem logically sounds like we shouldn't have that many things on one circuit even if there is no AC in the mix.

I should have added - the apartment without the Bed room is pretty big - about 800 sq. ft. and I do not think the AC is WAY under-powered but there might not be enough BTUs for the whole place...so maybe it's working too hard?

what's the total power usage on all those devices?

I'd have to go count. I'd be checking - the amps, for each appliance, yes?

And you'd want the total number of amps to not exceed the Amperage of the circuit they're on?

I suggest you explore two options.
1. Get a price on a 220V AC unit.
2. Get an estimate from an electrician to split the 220V into two 110V receptacles.

Get a 220V AC unit, easiest for everybody, the apartment already is circuited for it.

I'm sure this is more expensive than the converters, but if it;s easier and safer I'd gladly do that - I just want to know whether that 220v line has its own circuit. If it does, I'd be just as happy paying an electrician to rewire it to 110v, but yeah, might screw things up for the next tenant.

Is there some advantage to a 220v AC? would it be more powerful, or more safe in its current draw?

I suggest you explore two options.
1. Get a price on a 220V AC unit.
2. Get an estimate from an electrician to split the 220V into two 110V receptacles.

thanks, that's what I was trying to formulate; sound advice...

I'd have to go count. I'd be checking - the amps, for each appliance, yes?

And you'd want the total number of amps to not exceed the Amperage of the circuit they're on?

Typically it's anywhere from 12A to 18A per circuit.
and these numbers are just for peak load.

That's peak load, meaning, you;d want the total amps of all devices per circuit to be well under that circuits total?

I think I erred above - the AC we have is 10 amps (or 10.something). But that's still half of the 20 amp circuit it's on....I can't imagine the TV, stereo, fish tank, refrigerator and lights don't add up to less than 20 amps. And That;s not counting the toaster, microwave etc, which we never use now with the AC on, as that will instantly trip the breaker.


last night I got in after my ride home and the room was 95 F. Our poor cats were wilting. I turned on the TV (TdF), and the AC - that's it...no lights, even. Nothing else on aside form the fish tank filter and the fridge. 10 minutes later - poof! circuit breaks. I'm wondering if that is because the whole building was probably on AC overload in this heat wave??

I just did a BTU calculation - it looks like we should have a 25000-30000 BTU unit. Ours is about 15000 iirc...I'd have to check. Could that be the issue?

Just leave your fridge open.

fridge and microwave can be something like 5~8A each when they are on.
toasters and coffee makers can consume something around 6~8A.

peak load is only encountered when the appliance turns itself on to full power.
for fridges, that's when the compressor kicks in. microwave when you use it, AC when you start it up and when you use it on full power.

I think you could damage your AC unit by running it on the extension cord you are using. Get a stout one, the thicker the better (to a point). Short is better than longer too.

For the long term, I would leave the wiring alone and put a nice 220v unit in. It will be of higher capacity and run more efficiently. You could probably move the smaller one right into the bedroom.

Just leave your fridge open.

I was expecting you to tell Pgoat and WOPG to get more nekkid when it gets too hot...........

Just go live in the bath tub. It'll keep you cooler.

Just leave your fridge open.


I was expecting you to tell Pgoat and WOPG to get more nekkid when it gets too hot...........


Just go live in the bath tub. It'll keep you cooler.

See, this is why I come here for this type of advice :D

/\ btw- I am open to all these and other suggestions /\

I was expecting you to tell Pgoat and WOPG to get more nekkid when it gets too hot...........

I just assumed they already are.

if you wear a cycling jersey, or any other high tech sweat wicking layer and just pour water on yourself, it'll make you cooler than cotton.


In fact, I'm wearing a base layer right now, since it's 33c.

actually I'm going to go to the lake, much cooler over there.

I'm sure this is more expensive than the converters, but if it;s easier and safer I'd gladly do that - I just want to know whether that 220v line has its own circuit. If it does, I'd be just as happy paying an electrician to rewire it to 110v, but yeah, might screw things up for the next tenant.

Is there some advantage to a 220v AC? would it be more powerful, or more safe in its current draw?

yes

I think you could damage your AC unit by running it on the extension cord you are using. Get a stout one, the thicker the better (to a point). Short is better than longer too.

For the long term, I would leave the wiring alone and put a nice 220v unit in. It will be of higher capacity and run more efficiently. You could probably move the smaller one right into the bedroom.

I like this advice. Everything is complicated on this one, tho- I have been running all over hot, sweaty town looking for a 6' 12 gauge or beefier extension cord...no luck. The closest I found was an outdoor contractor's model, 25' feet long. That seemed like overkill.

I'd also love to use the 115v unit in the BR but our fire escape is outside the one window there... this being fun city the first thing I did when we moved in was have a one-way security gate installed (we can get out in case of fire, but no one can climb in to rob us). I guess I could have someone cut a hole in the bars and install it, but not sure what that run or if it would be worth it...

I just assumed they already are.

bingo



unfortunately that always leads to an INCREASED need for AC.

Um, i mean atferward

I meant mint

bingo



unfortunately that always leads to an INCREASED need for AC.


yeah, but who cares?

This"historical apt"has the potential of a tinder box with too many things on one circut.For example only the lighting is allowed on one circut.Splitting the 220 outlet at the panel to the outlet would work but may be illegal in your city(no insurance coverage on illegal elec. hookups).
Whoever tells you they cannot upgrade your electrical service due to the historical district is blowing smoke up your ass.This is the first safety concern when I buy an old building.
Call your local building dept.and they'll make this cheapskate ---hole comply with current city standards.

I like this advice. Everything is complicated on this one, tho- I have been running all over hot, sweaty town looking for a 6' 12 gauge or beefier extension cord...no luck. The closest I found was an outdoor contractor's model, 25' feet long. That seemed like overkill.

I'd also love to use the 115v unit in the BR but our fire escape is outside the one window there... this being fun city the first thing I did when we moved in was have a one-way security gate installed (we can get out in case of fire, but no one can climb in to rob us). I guess I could have someone cut a hole in the bars and install it, but not sure what that run or if it would be worth it...

What about 14 gauge? It should be good for ~15A draw @110v For length, 15 foot should be OK.

This"historical apt"has the potential of a tinder box with too many things on one circut.For example only the lighting is allowed on one circut.Splitting the 220 outlet at the panel to the outlet would work but may be illegal in your city(no insurance coverage on illegal elec. hookups).
Whoever tells you they cannot upgrade your electrical service due to the historical district is blowing smoke up your ass.This is the first safety concern when I buy an old building.
Call your local building dept.and they'll make this cheapskate ---hole comply with current city standards.

I was specifically referring to little things like not being able to paint the exterior entry doors a different color, or adding to the existing facades, etc. I am guessing the historic code would not extend to the wiring (just the opposite, I should hope!), but getting people to fix things is another story. I can't understand why they'd have so many outlets hooked up to one circuit any way. I am a complete ignoramus on these matters but if you have x number of outlets and a good number of circuits for each, it just seems like common sense to distribute them more evenly...I realize that's not even taking into account the type of devices on each, but still...I can only imagine each other circuit has maybe two-three things on it max. Of those, only one device - our computer, with printer, external HDs, etc. - is something other than a lamp or telephone charger, etc.


What about 14 gauge? It should be good for ~15A draw @110v For length, 15 foot should be OK.

Well, the AC power cord is 14, and we were using a 14 extension - that's the one that was overheating.

I realize the fridge must draw far less current but fwiw it has a thick power cord but it says it's an 18 gauge...that's been plugged into a 14 gauge extension and no hotness on the cords there.

Well, the AC power cord is 14, and we were using a 14 extension - that's the one that was overheating.
I wonder if there isn't an issue with your cord. I could have sworn most places allow 14 gauge in the walls for a 15 amp service.

You won't be able to have anything else on the circuit if the air conditioner draws 15 amps. Not surprisingly, the maximum you can put on a 15 amp service is ....drumroll..... 15 amps.

Best thing to do might be to spring for a new unit and sell what you have. An adequate step down converter is going to cost a huge percentage of the cost of a new unit, and you won't need to worry about tripping your breakers.

DISCLAIMER: I am not an electrician

I doubt it's the cord. There was a three-foot long 14 gauge on the fridge, so we switched them (the 3' long just made it to the outlet from the AC, though we couldn't leave it stretched across the room like that). The long cord was fine once it was on the fridge; the 3' was heating up on the AC.

Just to be clear, the AC is 10 amps, on a 20-Amp circuit. But with all the other stuff on there, no wonder it's popping a fuse.

Just call the super, this is his problem.
Easy-peasey-Japaneasy.

I wonder if there isn't an issue with your cord. I could have sworn most places allow 14 gauge in the walls for a 15 amp service.

You won't be able to have anything else on the circuit if the air conditioner draws 15 amps. Not surprisingly, the maximum you can put on a 15 amp service is ....drumroll..... 15 amps.

Best thing to do might be to spring for a new unit and sell what you have. An adequate step down converter is going to cost a huge percentage of the cost of a new unit, and you won't need to worry about tripping your breakers.

DISCLAIMER: I am not an electrician

Every friggin residential circut in Oregon (due to the constant deluges) must be on a GFI.:)

Easy solution: Un-twist some wire clothes hangers, and use those to plug the three prong air conditioner cord into the 220vac outlet! It'll be like overclocking your air conditioner!

You understand some people take Foo advise as gospel in here,but this does sound like a cost effective idea:thumb:

I just spent $50k of my friend's money to upgrade the power in his datacentre and this sounds awfully familiar. Here's my suggestion:


pay an electrician an hour's rate to come out and see if you have 3-wire or 4-wire conductor to your 220v outlet. If it's 4-wire, you're in luck.

have him make a converter box to plug into the 220v outlet to give you two 110v sockets. Each will use one leg of the 220v and neutral to give you 110v. And you'll need the 4th wire for ground.


It will basically be like an extension cord. This has several advantages:


No running long extension cords that can heat up and be a fire hazard

No tripping breakers in your kitchen whenever the fridge starts up or someone uses the microwave or toaster.



Total cost will be about $75-100. About $25-50 in parts.

I just spent $50k of my friend's money to upgrade the power in his datacentre and this sounds awfully familiar. Here's my suggestion:


pay an electrician an hour's rate to come out and see if you have 3-wire or 4-wire conductor to your 220v outlet. If it's 4-wire, you're in luck.

have him make a converter box to plug into the 220v outlet to give you two 110v sockets. Each will use one leg of the 220v and neutral to give you 110v. And you'll need the 4th wire for ground.


It will basically be like an extension cord. This has several advantages:


No running long extension cords that can heat up and be a fire hazard

No tripping breakers in your kitchen whenever the fridge starts up or someone uses the microwave or toaster.



Total cost will be about $75-100. About $25-50 in parts.

Well said unless this 220 outlet is coming from a subpanel used to feed too many other circuts.
As you said,the electrician will know.

I did some more looking this morning; here is what I found:

1. Our AC in the LR is a 12,500 BTU. I am remembering now we wanted a much bigger unit, as the main space in the apt. is about 800 sq. ft. (800x35=23,000 BTU). But while we didn't mind spending the extra $, we couldn't find a unit that powerful which would fit in our largest window. At least not back in 2003; maybe something that powerful is available in a smaller box now?


2. The circuit breaker box has twelve spaces, in two horizontal rows of six. The top row is filled with six switches; the lower row has only one switch - it's at center, and the switch is oriented upside down (it reads "15"); could this be a "main" kill switch? Or do we have seven circuits? Of the six along the top row, three are 20, three are 15; the one that blows when we use the AC is actually a 15 amp, my mistake in earlier posts.

We figured, there must be some isolated outlets in such a small apt. if we have that many circuits. We didn't have time to test them all this morning, but my wife showed me a single 3-prong outlet hidden behind her dresser, right next to our BR window (duh). She said she's used it with regular 110v appliances, no probs. By shutting two of the 20a circuits with all our lights on, we determined at least one of those controls that one outlet (and maybe nothing else?). I tested this by plugging in a 110v fan and it worked when that 20 amp switch was live.

The other 20 amp switch I tried today, no clue - maybe the 220v outlet in the LR? No way to test that as we have no 220v appliances - unless I could use a Voltmeter (without killing myself)?

The bottom line - If there is a single 3-prong 110v outlet isolated on its own 20-Amp circuit, next to the sole window in a 200 sq. ft. bedroom, i am gonna go out on a limb and guess it's there for a small AC - does that make sense?


Furthermore, would it stand to reason that the 220v outlet next to the LR window is also intended for AC use and hence is likely to be isolated on its own 20 amp circuit?

In which case, we plan to

A. have our super move our LR AC to the BR window. (Double Duh - My wife showed me the security bars on our BR window are in two pieces, so a screwdriver will remove the AC [non-fire escape side] in about 15 mins:o). My only worries there - will a 12,500 BTU unit be overkill for a 200 sq ft. area? Even if we leave the doors open to a dressing area and bathroom, it's only about 250 sq. ft. (250x35=7150 BTU).

Then, all we need to do is

B. find an AC with 220v and 25000 BTU that will fit our LR window....I am still not positive that 220v is isolated and not on the same LR/Kitchen circuit, but I can't imagine it's not, as it's right next to the window and being that I now know we have that single plug next to the BR window on its own 20 amp circuit. Am I right in being confident the 220v should be fine or is there a way to check if it's isolated on a 20 or 15 amp circuit (or would the super or only an electrician be able to check?)

The trick will be to get all this done before autumn:lol:

^Yes. See post #19 ;)

It sounds like a nice person has already taken care of your electrical issues.

How big is your window? This unit is 19"H x 26.5"W and over $1000. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4CE72?Pid=search

^Yes. See post #19 ;)

In rebuttal, I offer up the following:

1. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

2. A blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

3. No one likes a showoff

4. Yeah? So what?!

Sounds like the panel is a "sub panel"due to the fact there is no switch labeled"main".
Is it possible your main panel of this historical joint is in the basement near the electrical meters?

As one suggested earlier,it might be effective to split the 220v(remove the existing 15amp 2pole 220v) with a single pole 20amp breaker.Home Dopey has some nice 110v AC units for $200 or less on sale.
Back in the day many window AC units were run on 220v but the 110v units now are "energy star" rated.

I don't know where you reside, but here in Ohio we are to hit 94F today.

In rebuttal, I offer up the following:

1. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

2. A blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

3. No one likes a showoff

4. Yeah? So what?!

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s65/StupidlyBrave/squonkjpgrZd151424.jpg

(That is a squonk)

Is it a 110V or 220V Squonk?

Did you notice your hand-held hair dryer has a giant warning sticker on it that says "Don't use this device if you are a squonk"?

How big is your window? This unit is 19"H x 26.5"W and over $1000. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4CE72?Pid=search

I'll have to measure but I think that might actually work. Thanks!

We'd have to get one of those newer 220v receptacles wired in (ours has a different three-prong configuration)

Sounds like the panel is a "sub panel"due to the fact there is no switch labeled"main".
Is it possible your main panel of this historical joint is in the basement near the electrical meters?

Probably - there are over 100 units in the building, there is a huge room with all the Con ed meters

As one suggested earlier,it might be effective to split the 220v(remove the existing 15amp 2pole 220v) with a single pole 20amp breaker.Home Dopey has some nice 110v AC units for $200 or less on sale.
Back in the day many window AC units were run on 220v but the 110v units now are "energy star" rated.

I know our electric bill goes up in the summer even though we don't use our AC unless it's ghastly hot. Would a 220v AC be a lot pricier to run?

I don't know where you reside, but here in Ohio we are to hit 94F today.

NYC - It's 'only' 82f at 11:30 am but with 73% Humidity, the heat index is 98F (aka GHASTLY)