Classic & Vintage - campy component rankings

I think I've got a fairly good idea of how older Shimano component groups (up to around the Dura-Ace 7402...anything that still had DT shifters :P) are ordered in terms of quality, lightness, weight, etc (value?). I don't know much on the vintage Campy side of things though; could anyone give me a quick idea of Campy componentry? From what I can see, the ordering goes something like this

Super Record
Record
Chorus
Athena
Centaur
Veloce
Mirage

ordered with best at top. However, I've heard the naming is a bit less consistent with Campy from year to year, and that the era of the groupset matters a lot in terms of its value. Is this accurate?

From what I can see, the ordering goes something like this

Super Record
Record
Chorus
Athena
Centaur
Veloce
Mirage

ordered with best at top. However, I've heard the naming is a bit less consistent with Campy from year to year, and that the era of the groupset matters a lot in terms of its value. Is this accurate?

The hierarchy has changed dramatically throughout the era; yours is quite recent.

I'll start with mid-1980's, and bear in mind this doesn't take into account every exception or timeframe:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1980's/mid-1980's:

TOP-END:
C-Record - introduced 1984
50th Anniversary - 1983 only
Super Record - until 1987, dropped from catalogs well before
Nuovo Record - same story as SR

MID-RANGE:
Victory/Victory LX - introduced 1984/5, renamed Victory S3 in 1987. Coexisted with Nuovo Gran Sport; never shown in the same catalogs. Product line placement in reference to N.G.S. is ambiguous. Triomphe and Victory were essentially a two-tier replacement for the outgoing Nuovo Gran Sport group.
Triomphe/Triomphe LX - introduced 1984/5, renamed Triomphe S3 in 1987. Same deal as Victory.
Nuovo Gran Sport - dropped from catalog in 1986, probably produced until 1987. Was Campag's economy full-group back in the '70s.
"Touring" group: Mix of Nuovo Gran Sport components with second-gen Rally RD and 116 BCD crankset that was re-styled for Victory and Triomphe, shown in 1985 catalog.

ECONOMY:
990 - front and rear derailer only, cosmetic revamp of 980, introduced 1987
980 - front and rear derailer only, superseded by 990 in 1986
Valentino Extra - derailers only, dropped 1986 according to catalogs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1970's era:

TOP-END:
Super Record - top end when introduced 1974, dethroned Nuovo Record
Nuovo Record - top end when introduced 1967 (1966 at trade shows), dethroned Record
Record - original steel Record introduced 1963, dethroned Gran Sport as top of the line. Phased out in the '70s
Gran Sport - dropped in 1973 for introduction of Nuovo Gran Sport in 1974, never a full group

MID-RANGE:
Nuovo Gran Sport - introduced 1974; fate listed in the 1980's category

ECONOMY - nothing below is a full group, neither are they in order (because they don't deserve it):
Gran Turismo - horrid touring RD
Valentino/Valentino Extra - FD/RD set
Sport - Gran Sport RD w/single jockey wheel
Some others not worth mentioning

-Kurt

And to elaborate a little on what Kurt said, Campy had very few products before the 1970's.
Before the introduction of Record in '63, Gran Sport was top of the line. I'm not sure what other derailleurs they made other than that before then, I do believe there was a single pulley model that sold horribly and was quickly phased out (perhaps the "Sport" Kurt listed). Before Gran Sport was Paris-Roubaix which was a single lever version of the supremely nifty Cambio-Corsa. Mainly what they made up until the 70's was hubs and quick releases. Some derailleurs, but I don't believe a groupset existed before Nuovo Record.
-Gene-

Before the introduction of Record in '63, Gran Sport was top of the line.

There was a theme going at this point too:

Gran Sport - unseated by Record. Record gets unseated by Nuovo Record, Nuovo Record then kicked out by Super. C-Record kicked the entire lot out after a short time, then the C prefix was dropped, reverting the name back to Record.

Campagnolo hasn't tired of this either. 2010 is here, and Record once again takes a back seat to the new Super Record 11.

By contrast, Shimano's top components only had one name change (Crane became Dura-Ace), but the top has always remained Dura-Ace. Even DI-2 is technically an upgrade kit for/variant of mainstay Dura-Ace. The expectation for Campagnolo's naming convention to follow this pattern is where many folks get confused.


I do believe there was a single pulley model that sold horribly and was quickly phased out (perhaps the "Sport" Kurt listed).

Bingo.


I don't believe a groupset existed before Nuovo Record.

Also correct. Nuovo Record was the first group with a brakeset; also Campagnolo's first brakeset, period.

-Kurt

By contrast, Shimano's top components only had one name change (Crane became Dura-Ace), but the top has always remained Dura-Ace. Even DI-2 is technically an upgrade kit for/variant of mainstay Dura-Ace. The expectation for Campagnolo's naming convention to follow this pattern is where many folks get confused.

That's probably why I know Shimano componenetry better. Thanks for these explanations; they help a lot.

That said, here's my own, simplistic, personal perspective of how I rank Campy's bits throughout the years. I lettered groups which are quite close to each other in quality, but have little features that - I feel - make them just that much better or worse than the group next to it. Scream at me if you wish:

1A. C-Record with RD B-screw, Cobalto brakes in group
1B. Victory
1C. Super Record/50th

2A. Nuovo Record/Record
2B. Gran Sport

3. C-Record first-gen w/sprung RD top pivot, Cobalto brakes in group
4. Nuovo Gran Sport
5. Triomphe/980/990
6. Valentino Extra
7. Dirt
8. Gran Turismo

-Kurt

I think I've got a fairly good idea of how older Shimano component groups (up to around the Dura-Ace 7402...anything that still had DT shifters :P) are ordered in terms of quality, lightness, weight, etc (value?). I don't know much on the vintage Campy side of things though; could anyone give me a quick idea of Campy componentry? From what I can see, the ordering goes something like this

Super Record
Record
Chorus
Athena
Centaur
Veloce
Mirage

ordered with best at top. However, I've heard the naming is a bit less consistent with Campy from year to year, and that the era of the groupset matters a lot in terms of its value. Is this accurate?

Also there was a lowend group for a few years int eh early '90s called Xenonn, plus for a few short years there was the Croce De Anue which apparently was not very good as Campy dropped it pretty quick.

there was also a Centar offroad group at onetime (IIRC) and also Olympus

off road although again shortlived Euclid, Centar, Olympus, then most of these dropped by the wayside and Record OR took over.

Record also had tandem parts as a variation at one time, one of the most unusual things I ever saw was a 1 1/4 threaded Record Headset on a Santana

Were early Record derailers ever made of steel?

Also there was a lowend group for a few years int eh early '90s called Xenonn, plus for a few short years there was the Croce De Anue which apparently was not very good as Campy dropped it pretty quick.

croce de anue is/was a very nice group, it was just too close to chorus. think ultegra and ultegra sl

. Scream at me if you wish:

A1A Shimano 105
1A. C-Record with RD B-screw, Cobalto brakes in group
1B. Victory
1C. Super Record/50th

2A. Nuovo Record/Record
2B. Gran Sport

3. C-Record first-gen w/sprung RD top pivot, Cobalto brakes in group
4. Nuovo Gran Sport
5. Triomphe/980/990
6. Valentino Extra
7. Dirt
8. Gran Turismo

-Kurt

fxt

Were early Record derailers ever made of steel?

Yep:
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=a14ab7f2-6824-47b8-bc93-734649c19fb5&Enum=108
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=df4577b3-caf6-4a28-a98b-ac0a40de1db2&Enum=108

http://homepage3.nifty.com/ClassicBicycles/brands/components/CampyRecord9t.JPG

-Kurt

fxt

That's right. Shimano 105 should be put on A1A to be run over.

-Kurt

P.S.: As if I mean it. I just recommended a 105 group to a local friend, as a good budget group to build his Raleigh Team Pro up with.

croce de anue is/was a very nice group, it was just too close to chorus. think ultegra and ultegra sl

Speaking of Chorus - I definitely think the original Chorus gruppo deserves a shout out, even though late to the C+V party. Not on a par with 7400, maybe, but I have a panto Chorus group on my late 80's Bianchi and dig it. Aesthetically and functionally nice - arguably works better than C-Record, and the monoplaner brakes are cool (and were used by a number of pros).

Yep:
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=a14ab7f2-6824-47b8-bc93-734649c19fb5&Enum=108
http://velobase.com/ViewSingleComponent.aspx?ID=df4577b3-caf6-4a28-a98b-ac0a40de1db2&Enum=108

http://homepage3.nifty.com/ClassicBicycles/brands/components/CampyRecord9t.JPG

-Kurt

Nope.

Chromed bronze.

Speaking of Chorus - I definitely think the original Chorus gruppo deserves a shout out, even though late to the C+V party. Not on a par with 7400, maybe, but I have a panto Chorus group on my late 80's Bianchi and dig it. Aesthetically and functionally nice - arguably works better than C-Record, and the monoplaner brakes are cool (and were used by a number of pros).

you dont have to tell me :)

i ditched a perfect set of chorus dual pivots for a set of NOS late veloce monoplanars. in my opinion they are the best looking brakes made. they are very close to the chorus units but came with the better cartridge brake pads.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/thirdgenbird/yokota%20build/DSC00904.jpg

Late 80's: Athena, Chorus, Croce-D-A, Record

There was a theme going at this point too:

Campagnolo hasn't tired of this either. 2010 is here, and Record once again takes a back seat to the new Super Record 11.


-Kurt

Maybe that is why they don't release the electronic stuff, they cannot figure out a name for it.

Servo Record?

Maybe that is why they don't release the electronic stuff, they cannot figure out a name for it.

Servo Record?

i love it!

my bet is e-record

Maybe that is why they don't release the electronic stuff, they cannot figure out a name for it.

Servo Record?

haha that's fantastic :).

Shimano's top components only had one name change (Crane became Dura-Ace), but the top has always remained Dura-Ace.
Shimano's "Crane" designation originally only referred to the rear derailleur, and "Dura-Ace" only to the centerpull brakes. When Shimano decided to offer a full group, the Crane derailleur was rebadged as "Dura-Ace," the brakes were changed to side-pulls, and Dura-Ace labeled cranks, headsets and hubs were added. The centerpull brake was renamed "Tourney" and became the name of the second-tier group set.

Old Campy just can't be beaten in terms of beauty!!! It has that timeless quality, I love it!

you dont have to tell me :)

i ditched a perfect set of chorus dual pivots for a set of NOS late veloce monoplanars. in my opinion they are the best looking brakes made. they are very close to the chorus units but came with the better cartridge brake pads.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/thirdgenbird/yokota%20build/DSC00904.jpg

I think there were other Shimano name changes. Didn't 600 become Ultegra?

Nope.

Chromed bronze.

Touché :)

-Kurt

I think there were other Shimano name changes. Didn't 600 become Ultegra?

Forgot about that one. At least it stayed the same in the lineup, though, whereas campy seemed to add stuff in, take stuff out, etc.

I think there were other Shimano name changes. Didn't 600 become Ultegra?


Forgot about that one. At least it stayed the same in the lineup, though, whereas campy seemed to add stuff in, take stuff out, etc.

didnt it go 600>ultegra 600>ultegra

didnt it go 600>ultegra 600>ultegra


Nope :)

At least in the late 70s and on the 600 group in all of its iterrations was the second most expensive (save for one-and-a-half year when Sante was alive) and the second rated Shimano road group, after Dura Ace. 600AX, 600EX and the transitionary long lived 64xx group that was born in the late 80s as 600EX Ultegra, then the EX was lost and by the mid 90s the 600 went away.

Back to the OPs question. Those rankings are about right, but the mid-late 80s Campy groups are missing. Those were from top to bottom (and stayed close to that until the mid 90s) :

Record (lots of people call it C-Record, but "C" stands for "Corsa" = road, to differentiate it from "Pista" = track, but the group's name is Record ;) )
Chorus
Athena
Victory/Veloce
Junk (Euclid, Mirage, Xenon)

+1 to miamijim's comment about a rudimentary Shimano SIS group (like 105 or even Exage) was better in shifting and braking than any of those, from 1987 to about 1992. Then Campy introduced Ergos. Game over as far as shifting went, but Shimano still did have the advantage in braking for a good decade...

there also used to be an rx100 placed under 105...

Nope :)

At least in the late 70s and on the 600 group in all of its iterrations was the second most expensive (save for one-and-a-half year when Sante was alive) and the second rated Shimano road group, after Dura Ace. 600AX, 600EX and the transitionary long lived 64xx group that was born in the late 80s as 600EX Ultegra, then the EX was lost and by the mid 90s the 600 went away.

Back to the OPs question. Those rankings are about right, but the mid-late 80s Campy groups are missing. Those were from top to bottom (and stayed close to that until the mid 90s) :

Record (lots of people call it C-Record, but "C" stands for "Corsa" = road, to differentiate it from "Pista" = track, but the group's name is Record ;) )
Chorus
Athena
Victory/Veloce
Junk (Eucl
id, Mirage, Xenon)

+1 to miamijim's comment about a rudimentary Shimano SIS group (like 105 or even Exage) was better in shifting and braking than any of those, from 1987 to about 1992. Then Campy introduced Ergos. Game over as far as shifting went, but Shimano still did have the advantage in braking for a good decade...

i thought the tricolor brifters said ultegra 600 on them... cut me some slack,, i was pretty young at the time :)

edit:

i may have been 6, but my memory of my mom triathlon racer is pretty vivid:

ultegra 600
http://velobase.com/CompImages/Cassette/7BFEA991-FBAA-47E7-BF9E-6DB2D3FDFC13.jpeg

Doesn't corsa mean race and doesn't strada mean road?

there also used to be an rx100 placed under 105...

And an RSX under the RX100 too :) (in the 90s). RSX replaced the Exage iterrations (there were 3 Exage groups most of the time) and RX100 was practically 105 for all purposes other than cosmetics and weight.

And an RSX under the RX100 too :) (in the 90s). RSX replaced the Exage iterrations (there were 3 Exage groups most of the time) and RX100 was practically 105 for all purposes other than cosmetics and weight.

of course, i forgot about rsx :). i always thought the shiny finish of the rx100 looked better than 105. my first real road bike was a bianchi with a rx100 groupo and a sugino cranks. later on i got the 105 sti levers off of my dads training bike.

Doesn't corsa mean race and doesn't strada mean road?

Yes.

When did this become a Sh!tmano thread? Campagnolo is starting to look just that much easier.

-Kurt

Where would Daytona be? Or is it too recent?

Where would Daytona be? Or is it too recent?

daytona = centaur

i cant remember the exact years but daytona was in the early 2000s or so but they were forced to change the name for copyright reasons. because of this they brought the centaur name out of retirement to take its place.

edit: centaur was previously used for a mtb group in the early 90s

Where would Daytona be? Or is it too recent?

In northern Florida, and not on a Campagnolo rear derailer, preferably.

-Kurt

In northern Florida, and not on a Campagnolo rear derailer, preferably.

-Kurt

the italians over at Ferrari thought daytona was a good name too.
http://www.khulsey.com/stockphotography/ferrari-365-gtb4-daytona-1972.jpeg

incidentally, it could have campagnolo wheels too:
http://www.italiancarparts.com/labels_plates/ferrari/campagnolo_wheel_large.jpg

Haven't even mentioned the <c> Mountain Bike parts, Themis Centaur, Olympus and Euclid ,
Have some of that stuff on my Camper tour bike.
Olympus RD has steel back plate on the parallelogram, Euclid upped to a forged aluminum piece.

Record OR group a bit novel, spline and lock-ring fitted #2 and 3 chainrings on the back of the crank,
only large one bolted to the spider... and the beefy smoothly polished center-pull caliper.

Xenon and Athena was in the entry level road bike lineup back in that era..

incidentally, it could have campagnolo wheels too:

So could a bloody Ford:

http://www.hlb.com/inovlog/Detomaso.jpg

http://www.panteraplace.com/Tech%20Info/PE%20wheels%202.jpg

-Kurt

So could a bloody Ford:

-Kurt

i found one of those out in the wild last year:
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk177/thirdgenbird/eurowerks%2009/DSC00618.jpg

and now we are successfully of course...

I found this and thought it was interesting. A Campagnolo timeline - Dont know how accurate it is.

http://www.velo-retro.com/tline.html

Seen this?

http://www.campyonly.com/history/campy_timeline.html

Both timelines are about as accurate as a blind man at a skeet shooting range.

For that matter, despite the few bits of factual information at Campy Only, there's been more nonsense put to words on that site about Campagnolo than any other.

-Kurt

Thanks to dashuaigeh for starting this thread. I'm pretty savvy when it comes to Shimano, but a virtual newbie when it comes to Campy. That was fine when I was a Shimano only guy, but now I regularly ride two Campy bikes and have a third waiting in the wings plus a vintage Campy ride. I need to find a way to bookmark this one.
Good job to all the contributors, much appreciated.

Both timelines are about as accurate as a blind man at a skeet shooting range.

For that matter, despite the few bits of factual information at Campy Only, there's been more nonsense put to words on that site about Campagnolo than any other.

-Kurt

Werd. The stuff about Tullio "inventing" the derailleur is especially choice.

That said, both timelines are OK as rough guides - I think Chuck's is a little better, and I believe the Campyonly timeline may originally have been based on it to some extent.

Thanks to dashuaigeh for starting this thread. I'm pretty savvy when it comes to Shimano, but a virtual newbie when it comes to Campy. That was fine when I was a Shimano only guy, but now I regularly ride two Campy bikes and have a third waiting in the wings plus a vintage Campy ride. I need to find a way to bookmark this one.
Good job to all the contributors, much appreciated.

np, thanks to all these guys for imparting their knowledge.

Dumb question but forgive me. I have a Campy front and rear derailleur but I cant see where it says the group name anywhere on it. Is it usually stamped on it or can you just tell by looking at it? Also (not sure if this is the correct thread but you guys were talking about it) I'm confused on the 600 group by Shimano. I'm assuming that the 600 series that came on my 86 Schwinn World Sport is not the nice 600 set you guys are talking about above, correct?

Dumb question but forgive me. I have a Campy front and rear derailleur but I cant see where it says the group name anywhere on it. Is it usually stamped on it or can you just tell by looking at it? Also (not sure if this is the correct thread but you guys were talking about it) I'm confused on the 600 group by Shimano. I'm assuming that the 600 series that came on my 86 Schwinn World Sport is not the nice 600 set you guys are talking about above, correct?


Campy for a while did not put names on their components and you need to visually identify them. To make things more complex, some components are virtually indistinguishable from a photo (like the Chorus and Athena 7sp hubs) and several groups shared the same components. Late 80s aero stems and early ergos (record and chorus) fall into this category.

Correct. There was an older shimano 600 group that was not the nice one :) This is probably what it's on there, but the '86 World Sport came with the non-group FDZ 202 FD and RDL 522 RD. Light Action level.

Great info. I'll try to post up some pictures of the front and rear derailleur and maybe i'll get lucky and someone can tell what they are.

Ok heres a few front and back pictures of the front and rear derailleurs. I also have brakes but I figure there going to be the same group as whatever these guys are.

Rear derailleur front
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1290/img0271dy.th.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/img0271dy.jpg/)
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7209/img0272j.th.jpg (http://img149.imageshack.us/i/img0272j.jpg/)

Rear derailleur back
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7050/img0274sl.th.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/i/img0274sl.jpg/)

Front derailleur front
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3064/img0275au.th.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/img0275au.jpg/)
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6920/img0276t.th.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/img0276t.jpg/)
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/509/img0277pf.th.jpg (http://img651.imageshack.us/i/img0277pf.jpg/)

Front derailleur back
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1448/img0279h.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/img0279h.jpg/)
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9893/img0280xe.th.jpg (http://img819.imageshack.us/i/img0280xe.jpg/)