"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Help with FTP

Hello all

Did a ramp/MAP test last month, and using power x 75% for FTP that came out at 356 watts.

However I don't know how to read from my power distribution what it should be - can anyone help with a pointer?

Here is the graph for race yesterday:

http://i29.tinypic.com/534jh3.jpg

And for the last two weeks I've had the power meter:

http://i27.tinypic.com/10xyp35.jpg

The 350-360 bin is highlighted.

Peak 20' recorded is 365 watts - which would then correlate with an FTP of 347 at 95%.

Thanks.

I wouldn't try to use the power distribution to determine your FTP, but it can be useful as additional information for confirmation. From the 3 pieces of information you provided, 350 may be reasonable (please tell me you are heavy :eek:). Try doing workouts based on that and if you can complete them, then go with it.

I wouldn't try to use the power distribution to determine your FTP, but it can be useful as additional information for confirmation. From the 3 pieces of information you provided, 350 may be reasonable (please tell me you are heavy :eek:). Try doing workouts based on that and if you can complete them, then go with it.

Yes - very heavy! (98-99kgs) so power to weight is not crash hot!

;-)

I have just started reading Training and Racing with Power, and am looking at the FTP side to build up some more structured intervals for stopping off at the velo on the ride to or from work (I'm lucky that my commute along bike track all the way to work leads directly past a velo that is quite quiet during the winter months - especially after dark).

Have been building up my Km's recently and getting more structure - to the point where I can stay with or go faster than the light guys I ride with up hills. I have about 20-30 minutes at a time at the velo, so the workouts need to be short and sharp.

WKO is telling me that VO2Max is 377-430 - should I be aiming for 2-3 5 to 10 minute intervals in this range (to push back the lactate threshold I think)?

My best 5 minutes power so far is 417 W - so this range should be OK for shorter intervals at least...

If that 20' is all out then it's a reasonable way to estimate FTP. Looking at the distribution bins never really worked for me- at best it's given me a 20 watt range and for me that's not accurate enough... there's an 8% spread between the low and high end of that range. Narrowing the bin width too much makes the obvious "step down" disappear.

I like the 20' test because I do a lot of climbs that are a bit over that, so I get a lot of hard efforts over that distance.

Well, my climbs are all under 20 minutes long (17-19 minutes for the named climbs).

On the plus side, I think I have the FTP range pretty much dialed in based upon doing intervals last night.

4 x 3 minute intervals at 400W average with a 3 minute rest between each one (with my commute before and after for warm up/cool down). It was not easy to hold 400W, and I don't think I could do it for much longer than 3 minutes (at least when I have to do several more!), so I think it is at the right level (bang in the middle of the VO2Max zone according to WKO+ with an FTP of 356).

Did Wattbike training this morning and felt it in my legs - although managed good numbers even with the intervals yesterday (E2 training - keeping average HR at or below 155 - did 20 minutes averaging 328 with HR average of 152).

Cheers

I don't think that combining a guess of VO2max power with a chart is useful way to get FTP power.
The chart is based on averages of a set of riders. You may be different.

I don't think that combining a guess of VO2max power with a chart is useful way to get FTP power.
The chart is based on averages of a set of riders. You may be different.

Alex blog article - Seven deadly Sins is a good read on estimating FTP http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html

I don't think that combining a guess of VO2max power with a chart is useful way to get FTP power.
The chart is based on averages of a set of riders. You may be different.

I'm doing it the other way around - using the estimated FTP power to work out the VO2Max zone (as per Coggan and the WKO+ tool) for the purpose of making intervals for training.


Alex blog article - Seven deadly Sins is a good read on estimating FTP http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html

Cool - so, with various options I get:

From the Critical Power excel spreadsheet (http://velo-fit.com/articles/monod.xls) I get an FTP (60 minute predicted average power) of 354

From looking at 20' efforts, I get 347 based upon a top recorded 20' effort of 365 (although I don't have any climbs that last that long - so it is likely to be a little higher)

From the MAP test I get 342-365 with the 75% mark being 356

Using the power distribution graph, maybe in the 350-357 range (decent drop off after that when put Sunday's race in "size 7" buckets)

So - based upon all this, it looks like 355 is a good number (Alex's cycling blog says nearest 5W is close enough).

That also means that (as experience of the difficulty tells me anyway) that 400W 3 minute average intervals should be good to built up the lactate threshold and VO2Max capability in my body. (looking to carry out short sharp training rides regularly due to time constraints).

Anything wrong with any of the thoughts, assumptions or calculations above?

Thanks guys.

In my experience, being 5 or 10 watts off doesn't really matter. Just average them together and use that and in 6-8 weeks, retest.

In my experience, being 5 or 10 watts off doesn't really matter. Just average them together and use that and in 6-8 weeks, retest.

Cheers - will do.

I finish my indoor Wattbike sessions in about 4-5 weeks and will be doing another MAP test at the end of it to see if I go above 475W...

You could also go by feel, but that's probably cheating.

(Interesting thread, subscribed!)

You could also go by feel, but that's probably cheating.

(Interesting thread, subscribed!)

Well, that's actually an interesting thing I've learned now that I've started actually using the powertap properly for training - judge the numbers and not how you feel. As long as you are not overtraining, your legs can put out the same power. But after a big mid-week day yesterday (55km, 1 hour Wattbike session and 1 hour yoga) I was feeling a little tired in the legs. I was still able to push the intervals this morning though (3 x 3 minutes @ 400W).

Reading through some things though (such as http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/vo2maxdev.htm) I should maybe be doing slightly lower watts for 4 minutes for the intervals.

Cheers

Here is a quote from that page for pacing VO2 intervals:

"If you can only manage four, 4 minute intervals then you probably went too hard (red line). If you can "just" manage five, 4 minute intervals (green line) you're probably right in the ball park. If you can do six, then you were probably not going hard enough (yellow line). "

http://www.flammerouge.je/images/factsheets/vo2max1.gif

Went through yesterday, trying out changing from 3 minute intervals at 400W to 5 minute intervals at 390W. First two were fine, third I got through but could simply not maintain the power for the fourth.

From this, I think that it is pretty much down to calorie constraint for weight loss is not compatible with intervals! Will make sure I have energy in the system next time I try intervals.

I felt at the start that 390W was the right level - but I think I just bonked (normally I recover fine and can then ride home at a decent pace - but I crawled home afterward).

Will try this again when I have the time.

So - rides coming up:

Saturday, hills (tackling "Terry's Ave" for the first time - 19.1% ave gradient for 600m http://www.cycle2max.com/bike-hill-climb/Terry's-Ave-Belgrave.aspx?id=395)

Sunday - day off (Yoga)

Monday, commute, probably intervals

Tuesday, long commute, Wattbike session with coaching, Yoga

Wednesday, commute

Thursday, commute, probably intervals, Pilates

Friday, day off, Yoga

OK - ramp test again today after a 12 week training programme on the indoor Wattbikes. First time around I got to 475 - which equated to an approx FTP of 355. This time I got to 500 (15 minutes - last couple of minutes pushing out 450+ watts was hard!) - so FTP goes up to about 375 - calling it 370 as my new FTP.

I thought I may be able to get to 2 steps higher (525W) - but I was completely spent at the end of 15 minutes (

And the reward for reaching a new FTP level? Harder work in intervals! Yay!

:-)

Over a year later and I finally hit 525 on the RAMP test.

Training has been sporadic and interrupted by life in general, so was pleasantly surprised that I managed to up the effort after 6 weeks of not actually "training".

:beer: nice work!

I'm going to get a trainer in the next couple of months and go back to MAP for monitoring fitness. I love that test. So consistent. Last time I did one, I hit 500W, but I don't think I'm there now.

Over a year later and I finally hit 525 on the RAMP test.

Training has been sporadic and interrupted by life in general, so was pleasantly surprised that I managed to up the effort after 6 weeks of not actually "training".

Well, let's call it a year, an hour, and two minutes :)

Nice numbers, wow.