Tandem Cycling - Rolf rear wheel failure

Well - was cleaning the tandem on Friday and noticed that a paired set of spokes had pulled through the rear rim. Wheel is 5 years and about 10k miles old. We didn't even notice a problem during our last ride. Sent the pic to Rolf and want to look at my options.

Been wanting to run dual disks and depending on what Rolf is going to do (if anything) I think I'll investigate a good set of disk wheels. Only issue is that i'll need a new fork as well.

http://www.rastta.com/images/rolf.jpg

I've commented a few times previously about our failed Rolfs - same symptoms. What is your team weight? What kind of riding? Have you been using them with a disk? I ask because ours failed soon after some fairly steep cobblestone descents, 340ish pound team + 50 or so of bike and stuff. Of course this may have been only coincidence - it wasn't a controlled experiment.
http://gallery.me.com/jmerrill/100064/DSC00263/web.jpg?ver=12784657760001

Also: We had way fewer miles on ours (2-3k?). Rolf agreed to repair it "because you were not satisfied", not because they admitted that the wheel should hold up better. I guess this means it was not a warranty repair, but rather a customer satisfaction repair. I love the ride on these wheels, darn it. Too bad about the failures. I see an awful lot of reports like yours and mine, and I can't help but think there is a real problem here, not simply some bad luck.

Well - was cleaning the tandem on Friday and noticed that a paired set of spokes had pulled through the rear rim. Wheel is 5 years and about 10k miles old. We didn't even notice a problem during our last ride. Sent the pic to Rolf and want to look at my options.

Been wanting to run dual disks and depending on what Rolf is going to do (if anything) I think I'll investigate a good set of disk wheels. Only issue is that i'll need a new fork as well.

http://www.rastta.com/images/rolf.jpg

Join the club. If it's any consolation, you got more miles than most before failure. Ours pulled spokes exactly as yours did after 3500 miles. After warranty repair, hub broke at spoke hole. After that noticed stress cracks in rim after another 1000 miles. To Rolfs credit they made good on all repairs even though out of warranty. I finally obtained wheels for every day use with Chris King hubs and 36h Velocity Deep V Rims. So far, 5000 miles with no issues.

Not sure if I'm glad to hear of other similar failures or not :-)

I've got a love/hate relationship with these wheels. I love the way they ride - but I hate the damn bearing adjustments which work themselves loose. I had one broken rear spoke and one front spoke that came loose for no apparent reason. As most have said - Rolf has been pretty good on fixing them, but we'll see what they do here.

We are a relatively heavy team - 350 or so pounds. It does have a rear disc.

So, both the Rolf and the Sweet 16 are prone to rim failures, a joy to ride on, and a pain to upkeep. The difference maybe that Rolf stands behind its product and Santana blames the consumers for the failures.

So, both the Rolf and the Sweet 16 are prone to rim failures, a joy to ride on, and a pain to upkeep. The difference maybe that Rolf stands behind its product and Santana blames the consumers for the failures.

Just heard back from Rolf - I'll have to pay the standard $285 to have them replace the rim and spokes using my old hub. Since the wheel is 5 years old - I understand their position - was just hoping that they would help a bit more considering the type of failure.

Oh well - decision time for a new wheelset.

Since the wheel is 5 years old - I understand their position - was just hoping that they would help a bit more considering the type of failure.

Oh well - decision time for a new wheelset.

I think our expectations have changed a bit over the years. It used to be that it was pretty much standard operating procedure to put new rims on your race wheels every year.

With expensive wheels, sold as complete wheelsets, and stuff being more durable these days, I think we expect wheels to last indefinitely, which may not be a reasonable expectation for lightweight stuff.

If we get 5 years out of Rolf's I'll be happy. (until I have to stroke a check in 3 years)

Just heard back from Rolf - I'll have to pay the standard $285 to have them replace the rim and spokes using my old hub. Since the wheel is 5 years old - I understand their position - was just hoping that they would help a bit more considering the type of failure.

Oh well - decision time for a new wheelset.

If you want some hand built wheels, try Ron Ruff at White Mountain Wheels.
The guy is really an expert wheel builder.
Although I have not actually bought any wheels from him, I did a get a quote and he has given me a lot of good free advise on wheel building.

It used to be that it was pretty much standard operating procedure to put new rims on your race wheels every year.

Good grief... what type of rims were you using and/or how many miles a year were you putting on these wheels?

For mortal cyclists, unless we found fatigue cracks around spoke holes, saw excessive brake track wear (which took a lot longer before they started machining the brake tracks), or encountered a bent a rim there was really no good reason to replace a rim. Yeah, there were a lot of rims that did get replaced fairly often BECAUSE signs of fatigue were discovered, but they were typically the uber-lightweight rims that were designed for race use... not rims that were marketed for use as every day trainiing rims.

Heck, I think I still have a set of MAVIC GL330's that I used in the 80's and 90's at the house on my Raleigh's that probably have 12k miles of use but don't look much worse for wear. Admittedly, I never weighed much over 140lbs back when I rode sew-ups all the time, but I always expected to get many seasons of use out of any rim I bought... right up and until I bought my first integrated, super-light MAVIC Helium wheelset. I had low expectations for their longevity and was hardly surprised when they became unreliable after about 5k miles of every day use.

However, we're not talking about single bike race wheels here: these are wheels being marketed for use on tandems as everyday wheelsets that are purportedly as durable as 40h wheelsets in the case of the Big-S. So, if your benchmark for rim life and durablity is 20k miles for rims like MAVIC T217s, CXP30s, Velocity Deep-Vs and the like then that's the expectation. As to how long it takes to put 10k or 20k miles on a tandem wheelset and whether or not your wheels will last that long, that seems to be the wildcard... well that an honest mileage records. Clearly, there are many sets of Rolfs, Santana Sweet 16's and Bontrager RL Tandem wheelsets out there with a lot of hard miles that are doing just fine. However, there sure seem to be an awful lot of them that don't. That's the crux of this on-going issue with 'performance wheelset' reliability, never mind the value proposition.

Good grief... what type of rims were you using and/or how many miles a year were you putting on these wheels?

For mortal cyclists, unless we found fatigue cracks around spoke holes, saw excessive brake track wear (which took a lot longer before they started machining the brake tracks), or encountered a bent a rim there was really no good reason to replace a rim. Yeah, there were a lot of rims that did get replaced fairly often BECAUSE signs of fatigue were discovered, but they were typically the uber-lightweight rims that were designed for race use... not rims that were marketed for use as every day trainiing rims.

Heck, I think I still have a set of MAVIC GL330's that I used in the 80's and 90's at the house on my Raleigh's that probably have 12k miles of use but don't look much worse for wear. Admittedly, I never weighed much over 140lbs back when I rode sew-ups all the time, but I always expected to get many seasons of use out of any rim I bought... right up and until I bought my first integrated, super-light MAVIC Helium wheelset. I had low expectations for their longevity and was hardly surprised when they became unreliable after about 5k miles of every day use.

However, we're not talking about single bike race wheels here: these are wheels being marketed for use on tandems as everyday wheelsets that are purportedly as durable as 40h wheelsets in the case of the Big-S. So, if your benchmark for rim life and durablity is 20k miles for rims like MAVIC T217s, CXP30s, Velocity Deep-Vs and the like then that's the expectation. As to how long it takes to put 10k or 20k miles on a tandem wheelset and whether or not your wheels will last that long, that seems to be the wildcard... well that an honest mileage records. Clearly, there are many sets of Rolfs, Santana Sweet 16's and Bontrager RL Tandem wheelsets out there with a lot of hard miles that are doing just fine. However, there sure seem to be an awful lot of them that don't. That's the crux of this on-going issue with 'performance wheelset' reliability, never mind the value proposition.

I've never in the 37 years of cycling had a rim fail as bad as this. I've also never had a set of wheels with as many issues as these - bearing adjustment, spoke loosening and now the rim failure. Of course - i've used handbuilt wheels on all my bikes over the years and retensioned and trued them every year. On the other hand I have two sets of Campy Eurus wheels - one on the wifes single and one on mine. We've owned them a bit more than 5 years and I haven't had to touch them at all. I re-greased the bearings once. Taking a look at the rims on the Eurus - I sure wish the Rolfs were overbuilt at the spoke junction like the Campys. I expect the Eurus wheels to last as long if not longer than the rest of the bike.

We don't ride the tandem exclusively - although it is our main choice on the weekends. 10k is probably a bit high of an estimate - but definitely somewhere between 8k and 10k.

Good grief... what type of rims were you using and/or how many miles a year were you putting on these wheels?

For mortal cyclists, unless we found fatigue cracks around spoke holes, saw excessive brake track wear ([I]which took a lot longer before

Fiamme Yellow label. Around 5000 a year. I don't know that I replaced them that often, but standard advice for racers back in the day was to rebuild your wheels each season with new spokes and rims as preventative maintenence. Of course that was probably a $100 or so job for both wheels then.

However, we're not talking about single bike race wheels here: these are wheels being marketed for use on tandems as everyday wheelsets that are purportedly as durable as 40h wheelsets in the case of the Big-S. So, if your benchmark for rim life and durablity is 20k miles for rims like MAVIC T217s, CXP30s, Velocity Deep-Vs and the like then that's the expectation. As to how long it takes to put 10k or 20k miles on a tandem wheelset and whether or not your wheels will last that long, that seems to be the wildcard... well that an honest mileage records. Clearly, there are many sets of Rolfs, Santana Sweet 16's and Bontrager RL Tandem wheelsets out there with a lot of hard miles that are doing just fine. However, there sure seem to be an awful lot of them that don't. That's the crux of this on-going issue with 'performance wheelset' reliability, never mind the value proposition.

To the extent that any low spoke count tandem wheel is marketed as being as reliable as a 40 spoke wheel, I think that marketing is unrealistic.

Rolf rims (as well as Sweet 16's), by their design are going to be more prone to fail at the spoke hole than conventional wheels as a result of the high spoke tension inherent in the paired spoke design.

When you buy them I think you have to recognize the tradeoff that they are not going to be as durable, as other less aerodynamic higher spoke count wheels, and that is part of the decision calculus of whether they're worth it for you.

As for ours, we've got about 7- 8,000 miles on our Rolfs (I say about because I have a fairly accurate idea of the mileage on the bike, but a less accurate handle on how that splits between 2 wheelsets) with no issues.

I hope we get another 8,000 out of them. But if I had to replace a rim tommorow, I woudn't feel like Rolf had let me down, or I hadn't gotten my money's worth.

Aero, light, inexpensive, durable. You can pretty much have 3. Not sure anyone's packaged all 4 together yet.

To me it all comes down to use and expectations.

Finding a failed rim while you are cleaning up your bike at home is one thing. Having such a rim fail in Eagle River, Wisconsin on Wednesday of a multi day tour is something else. It doesn't matter if Rolf will replace the rim for $285.00, unless you can come up with an alternate plan, your vacation is over.

Personally, I wouldn't do a multiday tour away from support with them. I would take them on a multiday tour, if I had another set of wheels back in a car which I could get to each night.

About 5500 miles on our Rolfs until the above failure in the rear wheel. I paid for them to replace the rim. We are about 340 total weight including the tandem, with rim brakes.

There are 3 photos of cracked rims here http://share.ovi.com/album/currentresident.bicycle this is a common failure the mathematics of it is simple make that part twice as thick and it will never fail at your weight.

Fiamme Yellow label.

That explains a lot. What were they, like 290g or some insanely light weight like that? As noted, my GL330's were about the lightest rims I ever used and having eyelets seemed to give them a much longer life than the non-eyelet rims like the Fiamme Yellow label / Ergal rims. I think the Red label Fiamme rims were on par with the GL330s, made a bit more durable by the use of eyelets.

Interestingly enough, and related to this thread, I'm pretty sure FiR acquired all of Fiamme's assets when Fiamme went out of business.

Chris King hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims, 32H front and 36H rear.
Got just over 22,000 miles on rear wheel when rim had to be replaced.
Front wheel still doing great at 30,000+ miles.

Way-back-when, we used Mavic rims; usually got 20 to 25 thousand milesw off rear rims. One front rim lasted 56,000 miles.
Just our experience.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Hit a huge pothole Sat. Destroyed front rim. 14,000 miles on Rolf's. Going to replace both front and rear rims 7 spokes. Hope these last as long.

So looking at options - a place called prowheelbuilder.com does custom builds. They are limited in Rim choice on their website - but give a good estimate of weight and their costs seem reasonable.

As a comparison - Rolf Tandem Disc Clincher 31mm 20 / 24 Bladed 885gm / 1050gm 1935gm $1099

So looking at DeepV's with WI Mi disc hubs, sapim cx-ray spokes and brass DT nipples - all in black with 32h front and 36h rear - estimated weight was 1,935 at $785. With Mavic CXP33's instead of the Deep V's - weight drops down to 1,836 grams but price goes up to $820.

The ONLY thing i'm a bit unsure of is the 32h fronts with disc - especially with our team weight at 350lbs.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

So, both the Rolf and the Sweet 16 are prone to rim failures, a joy to ride on, and a pain to upkeep. The difference maybe that Rolf stands behind its product and Santana blames the consumers for the failures.

That seems to sum up these two threads perfectly!

I would go with a 36 holer for sure with a front disc. More so if using a big rotor. Our last tandem had a 203mm rotor up front and on steep decents at a pretty fast clip I could get the back wheel off the ground. I sure miss that stopping power. Not sure I would go that far with a carbon fork. The Winwood disc fork with a tandem rating only accept's a 160mm rotor, and probably not much better than rim brakes as far as stopping power, but, no heat on the rim. A rotor this small would be rendered useless on a steep decent in a very short time, and may warp quickly. Just a guess, but I've run a front disc for years on a Cannondale with a steel fork and a 203mm rotor. The ultimate stopping power, with a rim brake on the rear.

I would go with a 36 holer for sure with a front disc. More so if using a big rotor. Our last tandem had a 203mm rotor up front and on steep decents at a pretty fast clip I could get the back wheel off the ground. I sure miss that stopping power. Not sure I would go that far with a carbon fork. The Winwood disc fork with a tandem rating only accept's a 160mm rotor, and probably not much better than rim brakes as far as stopping power, but, no heat on the rim. A rotor this small would be rendered useless on a steep decent in a very short time, and may warp quickly. Just a guess, but I've run a front disc for years on a Cannondale with a steel fork and a 203mm rotor. The ultimate stopping power, with a rim brake on the rear.

I'd go with a Wound Up front duo disc fork and keep my disc in the rear.

Good choice. Make sure length is compatible, from crown to dropout. Rake is somewhat important within a mm or two. Awesome stopping power. I looked @ the prowheelbuilder site. Thats where I'm headed for my next wheel build. I'll use the Rolf's for special occasions. Sonoma County roads are nothing but dirt roads with a bit of pavement over the top.

Good choice. Make sure length is compatible, from crown to dropout. Rake is somewhat important within a mm or two.

FWIW: Wound-Up's line of tandem forks were originally co-developed with Co-Motion for use on their tandems.

In fact, the Wound Up was Co-Motion's defacto carbon fork for several years until the consumer demand for super-light True Temper Alpha Q X2 (even at the expense of some front end stability) caused Co-Motion to add the Alpha Q X2 to their line-up as the OEM spec for their racing tandems.

The Duo Disc was developed a few years later as a three-way collaboration back in 2004/2005 with Rolf & Co-Motion, such that consumers could also outfit their go-fast Co-Motion tandems with the disc-only $1,350 Rolf Carbon Tandem tubular wheelset. That laid the ground work for this year's new Co-Motion, full-line OEM dual-disc spec. in that Co-Motion offers both a steel disc fork plus the Wound-Up Duo Disc. Nice stuff.

FWIW: Wound-Up's line of tandem forks were originally co-developed with Co-Motion for use on their tandems.

In fact, the Wound Up was Co-Motion's defacto carbon fork for several years until the consumer demand for super-light True Temper Alpha Q X2 (even at the expense of some front end stability) caused Co-Motion to add the Alpha Q X2 to their line-up as the OEM spec for their racing tandems.

The Duo Disc was developed a few years later as a three-way collaboration back in 2004/2005 with Rolf & Co-Motion, such that consumers could also outfit their go-fast Co-Motion tandems with the disc-only $1,350 Rolf Carbon Tandem tubular wheelset. That laid the ground work for this year's new Co-Motion, full-line OEM dual-disc spec. in that Co-Motion offers both a steel disc fork plus the Wound-Up Duo Disc. Nice stuff.

I currently have a V-brake Wound up on the bike so it shouldn't be much different switching to disc.

Good choice. Make sure length is compatible, from crown to dropout. Rake is somewhat important within a mm or two. Awesome stopping power. I looked @ the prowheelbuilder site. Thats where I'm headed for my next wheel build. I'll use the Rolf's for special occasions. Sonoma County roads are nothing but dirt roads with a bit of pavement over the top.

It will be since I have a Wound Up on it now. We love riding in Sonoma - but I agree - some of the roads could use a bit more maintenance ;-)

I currently have a V-brake Wound up on the bike so it shouldn't be much different switching to disc.

They're close enough that it would be hard to detect the difference after one ride....

45mm rake on your current fork with a 387mm Crown height
44mm rake on the Duo Disc fork with a 390mm Crown height

They're close enough that it would be hard to detect the difference after one ride....

45mm rake on your current fork with a 387mm Crown height
44mm rake on the Duo Disc fork with a 390mm Crown height

Yeah I saw that - I think the steeper rake might make up for the slacker head tube angle a bit.

Your thoughts on the Deep V's vs the Mavic CXP 33's? Always been a Mavic guy until I had an issue with my Open Pros making a clunk which is due to a block in the rim joint which sometimes comes loose. It's also happened to my wifes X217's on her MTB.

The CXP's are considerably lighter but appear to be similar in profile.

Your thoughts on the Deep V's vs the Mavic CXP 33's? Always been a Mavic guy until I had an issue with my Open Pros making a clunk which is due to a block in the rim joint which sometimes comes loose. It's also happened to my wifes X217's on her MTB.

The nearly most equivalent Velocity rim to the MAVIC CXP33 (~24mm deep) is actually the Fusion (25mm deep), not the Deep-V (30mm deep).

That said, all three will build up into very nice tandem wheels for folks who run tires in the 23mm - 28mm range. We own or have owned wheelsets using all of these rims with no complaints.

Preference wise, I like the Velocity products for a variety of reasons, mostly because it's a small business with great customer support that's also incredibly responsive to the needs and wants of the cycling community. Where some rim manufacters produce one or two rims that are suitable for tandems, Velocity offers an entire catalog of tandem-worthy rims that cover every team size and riding style... never mind every rider's sense of color and style: where else can you get a set of wood-grained Deep-Vs for your bamboo Calfee tandem?.

I was a long-time MAVIC devotee up and until they botched the quality on the T217s, and then discontinued the CXP30 and just about every other component rim as they shifted focus and marketing strategies to the integrated wheel market. In fact, it was because MAVIC discontinued the CXP30 that I searched out an alternative and discovered the Velocity Deep-V some 10 years ago. I've never looked back. So, without a doubt I'm a big advocate of Velocity's rims. Campy's wheels and rims have also been a favorite.

Anyway:

Deep-V. I like the added robustness of the deeper section as well as the proportions relative to the size/length of a tandem: they just look like they're sized right vs. the shorter rims. But that's subjective. As a wheel builder, the deeper rim is also a nice thing in that they seem to be the easier rims to build-up and true vs. shorter rims and the taller rim + shorter spokes give the wheel a bit more lateral strength vs. the shorter rims. Yes, there's a weight penalty of about 40 grams per rim vs. a Fusion, but it's neglible.

Fusion. A little less robust than the Deep V, but 40 gram lighter.... if that matters. Seriously, you can build these up with White Ind hubs and DB spokes to get a wheelset that's the same weight as the current Rolf Prima Vigor Tandem, but with a lot more lateral strength and stability. Lots of drilling options and color choices.

CXP33. Similar to the Fusion, but more expensive with fewer drilling options and color choices (black or silver). That's really about it. Oh yeah, and the warranty / customer support isn't as user-friendly as Velocity.

The nearly most equivalent Velocity rim to the MAVIC CXP33 (~24mm deep) is actually the Fusion (25mm deep), not the Deep-V (30mm deep).

That said, all three will build up into very nice tandem wheels for folks who run tires in the 23mm - 28mm range. We own or have owned wheelsets using all of these rims with no complaints.

Preference wise, I like the Velocity products for a variety of reasons, mostly because it's a small business with great customer support that's also incredibly responsive to the needs and wants of the cycling community. Where some rim manufacters produce one or two rims that are suitable for tandems, Velocity offers an entire catalog of tandem-worthy rims that cover every team size and riding style... never mind every rider's sense of color and style: where else can you get a set of wood-grained Deep-Vs for your bamboo Calfee tandem?.

I was a long-time MAVIC devotee up and until they botched the quality on the T217s, and then discontinued the CXP30 and just about every other component rim as they shifted focus and marketing strategies to the integrated wheel market. In fact, it was because MAVIC discontinued the CXP30 that I searched out an alternative and discovered the Velocity Deep-V some 10 years ago. I've never looked back. So, without a doubt I'm a big advocate of Velocity's rims. Campy's wheels and rims have also been a favorite.

Anyway:

Deep-V. I like the added robustness of the deeper section as well as the proportions relative to the size/length of a tandem: they just look like they're sized right vs. the shorter rims. But that's subjective. As a wheel builder, the deeper rim is also a nice thing in that they seem to be the easier rims to build-up and true vs. shorter rims and the taller rim + shorter spokes give the wheel a bit more lateral strength vs. the shorter rims. Yes, there's a weight penalty of about 40 grams per rim vs. a Fusion, but it's neglible.

Fusion. A little less robust than the Deep V, but 40 gram lighter.... if that matters. Seriously, you can build these up with White Ind hubs and DB spokes to get a wheelset that's the same weight as the current Rolf Prima Vigor Tandem, but with a lot more lateral strength and stability. Lots of drilling options and color choices.

CXP33. Similar to the Fusion, but more expensive with fewer drilling options and color choices (black or silver). That's really about it. Oh yeah, and the warranty / customer support isn't as user-friendly as Velocity.


Thanks - pretty much spot on with regards to my assumptions on the rims - if I go this route - Deep V's it is.

I'm still not sure about fixing the Rolf right now as we do need wheels - and it is the cheapest option at the moment.

I bought a new Santana Team Niobium with Rolf Tandem wheelset late 2009. After approx. 1500 miles despite regular dealer checkups, the rear wheel failed just as shown in the above photos. Rolf replaced the rim under warranty and we rode the new wheel for about 1000 miles and then it also suffered the same fate. We are now talking with the dealer to figure out what our next move is. We've ordered a set of 40 spoke wheels that we planned to use for touring and multiday rides, but still wanted to ride the Rolfs on rides around home and one-day events because we like the ride. But if the failure rate continues like this, it hardly seems worth it. As pointed out above, the fact that these are marketed as reliable wheels for everyday use seems misleading at best. Is that just a way to sell a lighter bike for more money, but with no consideration of consumer expectations around reliability? It is disheartening to hear the stories above on Santana's response. Our dealer has been great, but it can't be much fun having to deal with disappointed customers without good support from Santana.

BTW, we are a 330 lb team and have the large Mavic rear disk brake option. We ride exclusively on asphalt roads and they are in pretty good condition. Our terrain is flat, but this latest failure came shortly after a ride to OK where we rode a lot of hills.

i've seen several rolf failures on singles first hand and countless others in pictures. i honestly think i would trust a used spinergy rev-x over a new rolf (on a single at least)

My wife and I are a 350 lb. team riding 40h wheels and probably won't go too exotic even when we buy a CF tandem (when I retire). What's distressing about the Rolf story, above, is that 1000 miles is no more than 10 weeks of regular riding and only 10 "special" events or so. You would have to be riding for dollars (assuming the wheels are advantageous) or have deep pockets to put up with that sort of life expectancy.

This is a bit of a side track, but a similar subject. What is with Paketa advertising a tandem with American Classic CR420 wheels? I can't imagine them holding up. By all accounts they are a good solo bike wheelset, but by no means bullet proof even in that application, let alone using them on a tandem.

Or the 21.96lb Calfee w/ 32holers @ 135mm dropout width. 1000 miles, thats terrible. Definatly sh*% can those. Wasn't 09' a terrible year for Rolf. Our 07's were great for 15,000.

I'm going to start a separate thread just to get a count on ***Santana*** Rolf rear wheel failures (i.e., 160 mm axle, 20 spoke count vs. 24 on non-Santana Rolf rear wheels). I've had 2 such failures already and Santana claims I'm the first. I'd like to hear if other Santana owners of Rolf wheelsets have had such failures. If you have a Rolf wheelset from Santana and have had a rear wheel failure (spokes pulled out of rim/rim cracked in spoke hole area) please post there so I can get a headcount. Thanks!

Got tired of him hawin around and went with pro-wheelbuilder. Deep V's, White Ind. 36 holers 4 cross, butted spokes, brass nipples, ti-freehub all in black. Close to the same weight as Rolfs. Projected shipping date on the 9th of Aug. Around 900$. Thanks joe@vwvortex. You live fairly close to us

Got tired of him hawin around and went with pro-wheelbuilder. Deep V's, White Ind. 36 holers 4 cross, butted spokes, brass nipples, ti-freehub all in black. Close to the same weight as Rolfs. Projected shipping date on the 9th of Aug. Around 900$. Thanks joe@vwvortex. You live fairly close to us

Crazy as it sounds I went with a new set of Rolfs. What you ordered was what I was pretty much what I would have ordered from prowheelbuilder. Now though - I'm waiting for my Woundup Fork because they are on backorder. No one that i've contacted has one in stock.

Got tired of him hawin around and went with ... Deep V's, White Ind. 36 holers 4 cross, butted spokes, brass nipples, ti-freehub all in black.

Not sure about 4x with White Ind hubs -- marginal flange even on the Daisy -- but you can't go wrong with the durability and longevity of conventional wheels....

Related to this week's Blog updates, here's a photo of John Bayley and Kristen Gohr doing a practice ride and nearing the top of Mt. Washington on a pretty much box-stock 2002 Co-Motion Robusta with the original, well-ridden Chris King / Deep-V wheelset... Lord knows how many miles John and his wife Pamela have put on those, to include several climbs of their own up Mt. Washington before this year's record setting climb by John and Cat-1 ringer Kristen in 1:06:32 for the 7.6 mile, 4,618' climb with an average gradiant of 11.1%.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_7bDicwJMlSQ/TA20XQ-vIwI/AAAAAAAABDM/EeaWqEBtD-0/s720/P1010929.JPG

Got tired of him hawin around and went with pro-wheelbuilder. Deep V's, White Ind. 36 holers 4 cross, butted spokes, brass nipples, ti-freehub all in black. Close to the same weight as Rolfs.

So you got the wheels at Pro-wheelbuilder (http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/cw/)? Could you enter your exact choice on their custom wheelbuild page, and post the result?

That has got to be the SLOWEST website I have ever seen.:(

Around 900$.

:eek:

(Sorry, just noticed that part: yikes)

Got tired of him hawin around and went with pro-wheelbuilder. Deep V's, White Ind. 36 holers 4 cross, butted spokes, brass nipples, ti-freehub all in black. Close to the same weight as Rolfs. Projected shipping date on the 9th of Aug. Around 900$. Thanks joe@vwvortex. You live fairly close to us

That's way up there. TandemsEast's price is around $600 unless you got some special spokes.

Used sapim cx-ray spokes. Think I should go with 3 cross. The rear hub is the M16 disc brake hub, daisy front. They recomended 4 cross

234$ worth of spokes, yikes. Didn't bother to check the price. Hopefully these will be fun riding. As far as comfort, I'll find out. I really liked the Rolfs. Mabey the +50 front wheel wobble will go away.

Used sapim cx-ray spokes. Think I should go with 3 cross. The rear hub is the M16 disc brake hub, daisy front. They recomended 4 cross

The MI6 (emm eye six) with 4x is fine. Sapim CX-Ray spokes... whatever trips your trigger. Like most 'performance wheel hardware', high-end, bladed spokes are pro-gear that yield small, fractional improvements in timed events where elite teams are looking for an edge to improve their placement. It is unlikely that they will make a team noticeably faster than their peers. But, that said, they will save you a few grams for bragging rights, they add a little bling to otherwise ho-hum looking wheels with their bladed profile, they build-up well and make for a nice durable wheel . Other than the cost, there's really no down side.

I'll change to 3 cross on the front Daisy hub. 1910 grams total

Hubs in black backordered, 2 week wait. Fellas @ prowheelbuilder said 4 cross is optimal as the spokes pull on the widest part of the flange, same as a 32 hole 3 cross, 28 hole 2 cross, etc. Ho hum looking, I hope not, all dressed in black, made in America hubs, Austrailian rims, no more paired spokes. Sorry for the thread hi-jack, thanks for the tip on prowheelbuilder.