"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Question on Lance's hard crash in Stage 8

I posted in the Pro cycling.. ahem, the 217... but really wanted to post here. But I figured it'd get moved there if I posted here.

Basically, to me, it appears Armstrong rolled his front tire and crashed. It wasn't bad luck, it wasn't a poor line, it was simply a very inopportune mechanical.

Any takers?


A conspiracy to keep the actual cause of the crash quiet, not a conspiracy to cause the crash.

I haven't heard any discussion of a rolled tire, but it's quite obvious from the Versus coversage that Lance's front tire came off the wheel way too completely and easily to be a properly glued tire.

Anyone put forth the question/idea that he simply rolled a tire? That the crash was the result of an error in equipment prep? That it was completely avoidable?

We have no evidence that he clipped a pedal. I mean, he may have, but it may have been the result of a rolled tire. Believe me, if you roll a tire, you're going to clip all sorts of things on the way to the pavement.

I've seen tires skipped sideways at high speed where only a few inches of tire are ripped violently from the rim, but the rest of the tire stays in place. I had a teammate that went into the air in a crit, his bike skewing sideways, at 35 mph. He landed hard, managed not to highside somehow, and then his brake block promptly blew out. He realized his tire wouldn't turn through the frame and noticed his tire kind of "lumped" outwards at one point.

Ends up he "rolled" a short section of tire.

His tire was so firmly in place, so well glued, that it blew out a brake block out of a rear brake by rolling forward through it with the tire. He rolled about 5 inches of tire (about 2 spokes worth of rim) and the tire ended up hanging off the side of the rim, fully inflated. The tire was scuffed but otherwise undamaged.

The officials were about to penalize him for rolling a tire. He challenged them to try and budge the tire. They couldn't. They didn't penalize him.

Even a flat tire wouldn't lose grip from the rim so completely.

If Lance's tire was properly glued, a section may have come off, but not 2/3 or 3/4 of it.

Heck, I'd challenge anyone to try and dismount my tubular tire in a second by clipping a pedal on my bike, landing sideways at 40 mph. It won't happen. If it did I'd roll a tire every time I dug a pedal, skipped a tire, or chattered across rough pavement flying through a turn.

When a tubular tire dismounts itself around most/all of the perimeter of the rim, it's usually/always a rider/mechanic's gluing/mounting error.

This is what happened to Lance's front tire.

cdr

(Secondary question - what kind of glue or tape does Radioshack use on their tubulars?)

I thought something similar. My tubulars are awfully hard to get off the rim. Even on a very hot day.

I cannot imagine his rims were that hot if the pack was really doing 60kph through a roundabout.

However, I didn't think Beloki's tire should have fallen off. Sometimes I think these pro mechanics just use one light layer of glue on the tires.

Not according to Lance..he said he clipped a pedal and then the tire rolled.

At the end of the day, all failures are human in nature. The people that just say, "S$%t happens" end up having a lot of "S%$t Happening". Lance probably did clip a pedal, no real reason to lie about that. That's one human error. The tire rolling is likely a second human error. We've all clipped pedals and gotten away with it, and many have clipped pedals and not gotten away with it. If his tire would have stayed on the rim, he would have gotten away with it. It seems like to me that they need to do a pretty good job of checking what the rest of their inventory.

Not according to Lance..he said he clipped a pedal and then the tire rolled.

This^. You screw up and knock the wheel sideways tubulars come off.

cdr, why analyze this?

I've rolled a tubular before - dude crashed into me and knocked my bars sideways in the last lap of a crit, I jack knifed (front wheel perpendicular to the direction of travel) and rolled the tire off a 12inch section. It's very possible.

This video shows us nothing definitive but g'damn these guys were flying and LA slid a looong way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHBftK8okyA&feature=player_embedded

cdr, why analyze this?

Because no one else has mentioned the possibility.

I'm saying that Lance didn't need to crash. Clipping a pedal won't take you out necessarily - we've all clipped pedals, even dug them pretty hard. It's normal business for a pro racer. But you roll a tire, forget it, you're on the deck.

Ze - I agree that it's possible to roll a section of tire. I even mention this in my original "thesis". But check out the vid of the bike when they pick it up. At least 2/3 of the tire is flopping around. I wasn't recording stuff off TV, but they replayed it so many times during the day (and I was sitting in the room the whole day).

Of course I can't find any evidence of the crash from Versus's point of view (which includes shots of the bike after the crash on the car roof). It's really clear to me that the tire wasn't glued on properly. If I was an official and if I was being a hard ass, I'd penalize a rider who showed up at the pits with his whole tire flopping around.

I think it's really interesting that there is simply no mention of the rolled tire, no pictures of the bike after the crash (in the Versus video it shows the rolled tire up there, must be on the race-ready mount, not a fork one), the tire flopping around after the crash, etc. Versus seems to skip the Lance crash on Stage 8 (both the 2nd and 3rd ones), showing instead the initial crash at the beginning of the stage. I think it's very curious that Versus skips the crash that really affected Lance, the one where he hits the deck at 40 mph. Instead they focus on the crash where he dabs with his foot and that's it.

What I don't understand is why no one is questioning the rolled tire. It's like it's been erased. I'm no Google expert but I can't find pictures of that rolled tire thing.

I have no idea why it needs to be "suppressed". But the fact that it seems to have disappeared strikes me as odd.

Personally I think it was simple error, not a conspiracy to take out Lance. But rolled tires get acknowledged - Rudy Dhaenens rolled both tires in the last km of a Tour stage for example, and lost a pretty much guaranteed stage win. There are other examples of that. In this case no one mentions the rolled tire.

cdr

This^. You screw up and knock the wheel sideways tubulars come off.

In thinking a bit more about this. It's a pretty big issue. I know it doesn't happen often, but it does happen consistently. It certainly wouldn't be allowed to exist in aircraft. Why hasn't anyone ever tried to remedy this situation? There needs to be some form of positive retention. It would only take 8-12 3mm socket head cap screws that go through the rim and then catch a small aluminum threaded receptacle in the base tape. Sure, you'd have a series of small (6mm) holes in the rim to put the cap screw through, but if you wanted, you could cover that with small bits of tape. I believe the total weight would be perhaps 75 grams or less.

You can say, "Well we've always done it this way and it works fine". I believe Lance (and, in reference to today's stage, Beloki) would disagree.

Properly glued tires don't come off. You can knock them sideways, you can do whatever you want, the tire will not flop off like it did Armstrong's (or Beloki's). Yes, a section can come undone, but not the whole tire. If I can find a picture of the bike after the crash, you can see that the tire is flopping around in the fork. It's painfully clear the tire wasn't glued on properly.

I agree that it's possible the mechanic used just a little bit of glue. I don't see a good reason for it but I can see that it's possible. No one has mentioned this though.

If you roll a tire, you'll dig whatever is close to the ground. Pedal, bar, something's going to hit. The dug pedal could have come from the rolled tire, not the other way around. Regardless, a dug pedal won't result in rolling a well-glued tire.

I did find that Velocenter, specifically former pro racer Todd Gogulski, mentions the possibility of a rolled tire, but they don't show the bike after the crash. No one else has mentioned it that I can find.

I just find it really odd. I figured someone would mention it the following day or something.

Maybe the team doesn't want bad publicity, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't blame the tire or wheel company unless something actually failed, and it doesn't look that way to me.

When I go to take mine off I generally have to slice the tire open and then peel it back. They're almost impossible to remove by rolling. Sometimes, if I'm lucky and work at it and want to save a tire (usually I wear them out, so it's no loss to slice), I can work a zip tie underneath and thread it through, and use that to separate the base tape from the rim, but it's not easy.

This video shows us nothing definitive but g'damn these guys were flying and LA slid a looong way.


http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=wHBftK 8okyA&feature=player_embedded

kind of reminded me of a crash i had in the headleands. the sliding part that is.

that's when i learned that sliding for 20-30 meters on tarmac wasn't quite the same as snow.

Properly glued tires don't come off. You can knock them sideways, you can do whatever you want, the tire will not flop off like it did Armstrong's (or Beloki's). Yes, a section can come undone, but not the whole tire. If I can find a picture of the bike after the crash, you can see that the tire is flopping around in the fork. It's painfully clear the tire wasn't glued on properly.

I agree that it's possible the mechanic used just a little bit of glue. I don't see a good reason for it but I can see that it's possible. No one has mentioned this though.

If you roll a tire, you'll dig whatever is close to the ground. Pedal, bar, something's going to hit. The dug pedal could have come from the rolled tire, not the other way around. Regardless, a dug pedal won't result in rolling a well-glued tire.

I did find that Velocenter, specifically former pro racer Todd Gogulski, mentions the possibility of a rolled tire, but they don't show the bike after the crash. No one else has mentioned it that I can find.

I just find it really odd. I figured someone would mention it the following day or something.

Maybe the team doesn't want bad publicity, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't blame the tire or wheel company unless something actually failed, and it doesn't look that way to me.

expediency trumps virtue.

not for me though. I would rather spend twenty minutes wrestling the tire off the rim as long as I know it's really stuck on there well.

One thing I am certain of: Not everybody glues them on as well as I do. I have bought a number of used tubulars that had tired glued on them. In every case I was able to pull the tire off in less than a minute. Mine take a heck of a lot more effort.

In thinking a bit more about this. It's a pretty big issue. I know it doesn't happen often, but it does happen consistently. It certainly wouldn't be allowed to exist in aircraft. Why hasn't anyone ever tried to remedy this situation? There needs to be some form of positive retention. It would only take 8-12 3mm socket head cap screws that go through the rim and then catch a small aluminum threaded receptacle in the base tape. Sure, you'd have a series of small (6mm) holes in the rim to put the cap screw through, but if you wanted, you could cover that with small bits of tape. I believe the total weight would be perhaps 75 grams or less.

You can say, "Well we've always done it this way and it works fine". I believe Lance (and, in reference to today's stage, Beloki) would disagree.

The secondary retention a of a tubular tire is the fact that when the tire is inflated, it expands. The ID of the tire tries to get smaller, so it constricts onto the rim. Try installing a tubular with no glue, then while the tub is fully inflated (~120-130psi), then try to get it off. Its possible for sure, but its MUCH harder than you would think.

As for lance, I think a crappy glue job is possible, but another thing to think about is that if he was going 40 mph, he was probably on the brakes a decent amount, heating up the rim and tubular glue. This could have contributed to the tire rolling off. I didn't see the crash, so I don't know what happened exactly though.

expediency trumps virtue.

not for me though. I would rather spend twenty minutes wrestling the tire off the rim as long as I know it's really stuck on there well.

There was some guy here arguing that he doesn't glue his training tires on well so he can take them off easier in case of a flat.

The secondary retention a of a tubular tire is the fact that when the tire is inflated, it expands. The ID of the tire tries to get smaller, so it constricts onto the rim. Try installing a tubular with no glue, then while the tub is fully inflated (~120-130psi), then try to get it off. Its possible for sure, but its MUCH harder than you would think.

As for lance, I think a crappy glue job is possible, but another thing to think about is that if he was going 40 mph, he was probably on the brakes a decent amount, heating up the rim and tubular glue. This could have contributed to the tire rolling off. I didn't see the crash, so I don't know what happened exactly though.

Doubtful. You don't get up to 40 miles an hour on the flats by using the brakes hard. On the flats, you may feather your front occasionally, if at all. Usually, a rim will heat up enough to melt glue only one very twisty fast down hills, where you have to brake very hard for the corners.

One thing I am certain of: Not everybody glues them on as well as I do. I have bought a number of used tubulars that had tired glued on them. In every case I was able to pull the tire off in less than a minute. Mine take a heck of a lot more effort.

Same here. I sometimes have to use a screwdriver to pry them off (aluminum rims)


There was some guy here arguing that he doesn't glue his training tires on well so he can take them off easier in case of a flat.

Doofus .. I wouldn't want him in front of me.

Properly glued tires don't come off. You can knock them sideways, you can do whatever you want, the tire will not flop off like it did Armstrong's (or Beloki's). Yes, a section can come undone, but not the whole tire. If I can find a picture of the bike after the crash, you can see that the tire is flopping around in the fork. It's painfully clear the tire wasn't glued on properly.


I've got in on our DVR and watched it again last night. The entire tire is off the rim. It's not a single portion, it's the whole damned thing. It didn't really click in my head until CDR mentioned it. I completely agree that it wasn't glued on properly, if at all. I don't own any tubulars, but I've seen a few rolled at races (generally because they used tape as opposed to glue). Anyway, at most, I've seen about 1/2 of a tire off the rim. This is the first time I've seen the entire thing peeled off. I bet someone put the tire on the rim, and just never glued it down. The glue residue from the previous tire and the air in the tire was enough to ride on, but when forced sideways due to the clipped pedal it peeled like a banana.

How would you like to be the mechanic responsible for destroying LA's chances in his final Tour. No thanks.

There was some guy here arguing that he doesn't glue his training tires on well so he can take them off easier in case of a flat.

Darwin will dispatch with him soon enough. Hopefully none of us will be collateral damage.

The secondary retention a of a tubular tire is the fact that when the tire is inflated, it expands. The ID of the tire tries to get smaller, so it constricts onto the rim. Try installing a tubular with no glue, then while the tub is fully inflated (~120-130psi), then try to get it off. Its possible for sure, but its MUCH harder than you would think.

Agreed, but it's not a positive enough of a retention to hold the tire under race conditions. It's OK to do that to limp home, but I certainly wouldn't start a race in that manner. A system to positively attach the tire to the rim would be a good idea. Gluing does work in most situations, but by it's very nature, it's meant to be removable. Tire pressure is also not a the perfect answer because in some situations (cyclocross) the entire reason you run tubulars is to be able to run reduced pressures (without pinch flatting). This would reduce the effectiveness of that form of retention.

I partially rolled a tire in a crit last year - similar to the brake block story above, just a short section rolled when I hit a bump and did a sideways kick. Tire stayed fully inflated, was able to pop it back on and ride to s/f and get my road rash treated. And, I know for a fact the tire was well-glued since I watched my buddy do it and he and I both have been gluing tubies for years and years. It was a hot day, a technical crit, definitely challenging conditions for the glue... I think there are just physical limits to glue that it's possible to exceed in a race... which is why I don't race 'em anymore. Clinchers are good enough.

This conversation reminded me of the crash in the video below. Clip a pedal or do something else that lifts the front wheel, have it come down sideways, and a tire can come off completely - though it doesn't seem to be the ordinary way things go down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ftEFFv0h24

Wow, cool crash/save vid.

High speed version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-z0Kh0pvNM&NR=1

In thinking a bit more about this. It's a pretty big issue. I know it doesn't happen often, but it does happen consistently. It certainly wouldn't be allowed to exist in aircraft. Why hasn't anyone ever tried to remedy this situation? There needs to be some form of positive retention. It would only take 8-12 3mm socket head cap screws that go through the rim and then catch a small aluminum threaded receptacle in the base tape. Sure, you'd have a series of small (6mm) holes in the rim to put the cap screw through, but if you wanted, you could cover that with small bits of tape. I believe the total weight would be perhaps 75 grams or less.

You can say, "Well we've always done it this way and it works fine". I believe Lance (and, in reference to today's stage, Beloki) would disagree.

This wouldn't work. You'd just rip the tire at that point. Think about the surface area affected by glue compared to a couple of screws. I'll take the glue any day. If it was a poorly installed tire, could Radio Shack have been penalized for it? What if someone else went down as a result?

Lance: "I clipped a pedal, went down and rolled a tire"

CDR: Lance rolled a tire and crashed discuss

BF: continues to ignore the guy who crashed who said he clipped a pedal and discusses topic as if the rolled tire caused the crash.

Doubtful. You don't get up to 40 miles an hour on the flats by using the brakes hard. On the flats, you may feather your front occasionally, if at all. Usually, a rim will heat up enough to melt glue only one very twisty fast down hills, where you have to brake very hard for the corners.

Like I said, I didn't see the stage. I was thinking it was in a decent.

Like I said, I didn't see the stage. I was thinking it was indecent.

Fixed.

Lance: "I clipped a pedal, went down and rolled a tire"

CDR: Lance rolled a tire and crashed discuss

BF: continues to ignore the guy who crashed who said he clipped a pedal and discusses topic as if the rolled tire caused the crash.

seems typical.

With certain things, a rider will be inaccurate or incomplete to deflect inquiries. For example, Cadel didn't mention his broken elbow, nor did Hincapie his collarbone, etc. Other times it helps the rider to reveal all, like Tyler (Hamilton)'s collarbone or Farrar's wrist, because then the others underestimate the rider. In Lance's case, it helps his case to state that he dug a pedal and crashed. It seems pretty straightforward. But if he says that a team error resulted him in crashing... that's not so good.

So the rider/team won't say anything. But when you see video, it's maybe something else.

I'm just trying to open debate. I think it's very odd that no one has mentioned that the crash was pretty much mainly caused by a rolled tire, regardless of what happened to exert lateral pressure on the tire.

I don't understand why you're so focused on this, CDR.

I don't understand why you're so focused on this, CDR.

I guess because no one agrees with me :)

Seriously, it's really odd that no one's mentioned the rolled tire. No pictures of it. No pictures of the bike after the crash. Etc etc.

It's a race changing mechanical, at least for Lance. But no one has said that "Lance lost time due to a mechanical problem exposed by clippingpedal/corneringhard/whatever". If he hadn't crashed that second time, the race would have been very different and a lot more straightforward (i.e. if he was 10 minutes down, it's because he wasn't as strong).

The only time I have clipped a pedal hard enough to roll a significant portion of the tire it folded the wheel as well. Back in the day, even if you were involved in a crash or a flat, tire off the rim = time off the bike. District reps (at least in the mid-west) were very strict about this.

Every race in MI used to start with Clair Young walking down the line trying to roll front tires off rims. If yours so much as budged you were headed back for your spare wheel (hoping you made it back to the line before the start).

This wouldn't work. You'd just rip the tire at that point. Think about the surface area affected by glue compared to a couple of screws. I'll take the glue any day.

I don't think I was clear about what I was saying, although it may not change your opinion. I didn't mean to have some SHCS's in place of glue, I meant to have them in addition to it. You're correct about the surface area affect of the glue. It makes it incredibly strong in shear and tension. The problem with most adhesives is peel strength. I think it's doubly so with tubular glue in that the tire will eventually have to be removed, so it never has a permanent set. Having some mechanism there to provide a resistance to the peeling and provide additional force holding the tire to the rim seems like a difficult thing to argue against.

Seriously, it's really odd that no one's mentioned the rolled tire. No pictures of it. No pictures of the bike after the crash. Etc etc.

Do you often find photos of bikes post-crash online?

I've never seen a cycling site post pics of post-crash bikes at the Tour.

I guess because no one agrees with me :)

Seriously, it's really odd that no one's mentioned the rolled tire. No pictures of it. No pictures of the bike after the crash. Etc etc.


Chopped liver here, I guess.

Do you often find photos of bikes post-crash online?

I've never seen a cycling site post pics of post-crash bikes at the Tour.

I was thinking of the time while they were picking up the bike and giving Lance a new one. Then there are the shots of the bike on the roof of the team car. I wasn't thinking of pictures of the bike at the team bus etc.

I guess because no one agrees with me :)



Bad glue job was my first thought when I heard him say he clipped a pedal & rolled a tire.

I think he clipped his pedal on the curb which would be much more violent than touching the road. They weren't cornering hard enough for the pedal to touch the road. Most people have experienced clipping a pedal on a corner in a crit but usually not at 60kmh so I don't find it strange that most of the tire came off the rim.