Hybrid Bicycles - toe clips on a hybrid

I'm thinking of getting some pedals with toeclips for my hybrid. catch-22, when I'm just bumming around town, I like to ride in Keen Newport sandals, which have a full toe cap like a shoe.
http://www.planetshoes.com/mmplanet/Images/3435/3435_118_detail.jpg

has anyone used toeclips with these? how well did they work? Its been years since I rode with clips (my old roadbike from the 70s had campy pedals with cristophe clips and straps)

I've seen some double-strap clips, also some clips that have a double wide top, like
http://thegnukid.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/toeclips.jpg
and
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/3135415166_3327a416f1.jpg

anyone used either of these sorts of clips and can comment on the ease of entry with various street footwear?

I use clips & toestraps and I find it difficult to use them properly when wearing sandals. That being said, the Keens that you pictured are more "close-toed" that mine so YMMV. Also - watch the tread; chunky tread intended for hiking over rough terrain will get caught up on the teeth of the pedal as shown in your second pic. My experience has been that court-type shoes work the best in my clips & straps. I commute in the winter, too and I switch to platforms when I install my studded tires. I would like to try clipless someday but that's still down the road a piece.

One other product I find intriguing is this:

http://www.hiawathacyclery.com/cart/images/powergrips_in_action1.jpg (http://www.powergrips.com/index.php?section=index)

I would like to try those someday as well. They even come in large sizes for winter boots!

I use clips & toestraps and I find it difficult to use them properly when wearing sandals. That being said, the Keens that you pictured are more "close-toed" that mine so YMMV. Also - watch the tread; chunky tread intended for hiking over rough terrain will get caught up on the teeth of the pedal as shown in your second pic. My experience has been that court-type shoes work the best in my clips & straps. I commute in the winter, too and I switch to platforms when I install my studded tires. I would like to try clipless someday but that's still down the road a piece.


I have clipless on my hard core mountain bike (Shimano SPD) but don't want to have to wear special shoes when I'm bumming around town on my hybrid.

fwiw, the keens have a fairly stiff sole thats not heavily lugged. but I am planning on using platform pedals rather than rat cage or track ones, something like...
http://pages.nyu.edu/~jh15/bikes/images/pedal2a.jpg

I use plastic Avenir toe clips on my hybrid, but always wear Converse chucks with them. My Keens would never fit into them.

My hardtail mountain bike has Power Grips, as shown above, and they rock. You can fit snow boots in them if you buy the longer sized straps. I've used Keen Voyagers with my Power Grips many times. Better than toe clips, if you ask me.

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab214/Buzz_EDC/Keens.jpg

I second the power grips for sandals. You might want to try so called mini clips for the keenes. These are the toe portion of toe clips shortned and without straps. My wife likes them. Not as effective overall as clips and straps but they do keep your feet in place for non aggressive riding.

I tried miniclips back in 1983 when I first got my original Stumpjumper, found them essentially useless.

Bike Radar has a Picture of old seatbelt webbing and Velcro used in angled strap designed to make a readily adjustable power grip like strap
DIY.. so get the materials and sew some up a few bolts and washers and you can screw them on most any pedal with a set of reflector mounting holes on them

Wide platform pedals support soft soled shoes.

heck wide platform pedals on their own are fine , without bothering with the whole strap toeclip thing .. on my day to day trips,

But I'm not on a Broad plain ,with hours of city around me.

I was just using some Keen sandals very similar to the ones you show here on my single-speed yesterday. I've only had the bike for about a week, and it's the first time I've used toe clips, but they are the best shoes I've tried with them so far. Mine are set up with a metal cage and single leather straps.

50/50 spd pedals are my favourites as then I can wear any shoe I want... they have a toothy non spd side and a wide platform which grips my shoes really well and with the spd I can wear my cycling shoes which I use most of the time.

Today is a sandal kind of day... can't ride as fast with them as I can with proper cycling shoes but it is good to air out the feet and after putting down some epic mileage this week pootling along feels good.

Get these Keen SPD sandals. http://www.keenfootwear.com/product/fw09/shoes/men/pedal/commuter/bison!%20bossa%20nova

and some nice modern pedals. For example, http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_514369_-1_201991_10000_200410

50/50 spd pedals are my favourites as then I can wear any shoe I want... they have a toothy non spd side and a wide platform which grips my shoes really well and with the spd I can wear my cycling shoes which I use most of the time.

What kind of 50/50 pedals would you recommend? I've been thinking that might be a good choice for my hybrid bike, which I use both for occasional commuting to work and for riding around town with my son in the child seat. I don't think I'd want to be clipped in with him on the back of the bike.

50/50 spd pedals are my favourites as then I can wear any shoe I want... they have a toothy non spd side and a wide platform which grips my shoes really well and with the spd I can wear my cycling shoes which I use most of the time.

Today is a sandal kind of day... can't ride as fast with them as I can with proper cycling shoes but it is good to air out the feet and after putting down some epic mileage this week pootling along feels good.
I was gonna ask if "pootling" was a real word, but I looked it up and, what do you know - it is indeed! Great use of the vernacular.

PS. Please excuse my "gonna".

What kind of 50/50 pedals would you recommend? I've been thinking that might be a good choice for my hybrid bike, which I use both for occasional commuting to work and for riding around town with my son in the child seat. I don't think I'd want to be clipped in with him on the back of the bike.

I have Wellgo and Shimano pedals... the M324 is pretty decent at about $55.00 and Wellgos WAm D10's are a pretty good bargain at around $40.00.

My Shimano pedals have taken an absolute beating and are still smooth as silk.

If you want both a double sided pedal for clip in convenience and a 50/50 for using street shoes here (http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=22313&category=1669) is one possible solution. I just noticed them, I just started using clipless pedals for that matter, and the price is low enough to justify giving them a try. They just shipped today so I have no experience with them yet. The might be a bit fiddly for some since the instructions tell you to loosen the SPD tension all the way to mount them and then increase it to max to retain them in place while riding.

Ken

If you want both a double sided pedal for clip in convenience and a 50/50 for using street shoes here (http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=22313&category=1669) is one possible solution. I just noticed them, I just started using clipless pedals for that matter, and the price is low enough to justify giving them a try. They just shipped today so I have no experience with them yet. The might be a bit fiddly for some since the instructions tell you to loosen the SPD tension all the way to mount them and then increase it to max to retain them in place while riding.

Ken
I recently test rode a bike with clip-on platforms like these and it really sucked; my feet were a slippin' and a slidin' all over the place. Admittedly, though, the ones I used didn't seem to have as many "teeth" as the ones linked here so YMMV.

I recently test rode a bike with clip-on platforms like these and it really sucked; my feet were a slippin' and a slidin' all over the place. Admittedly, though, the ones I used didn't seem to have as many "teeth" as the ones linked here so YMMV.

Yep, I know it is a risk. I will know more in a few days. When I first noticed these many online sources had them listed for sale but they were out of stock at all of them. I don't know if they are new, very popular, or were just out of stock due to intermittent production at the supplier. I signed up to be notified when they arrived at Universal Cycles and it took a couple of weeks for that notice to come. They had a lot in stock at all three warehouses when I got the notice, when I went to order a couple of days later they were mostly gone. I think that says that a lot of customers are interested. It does not prove that they like the product once they receive it though....

All I can do is post my impressions after I have a chance to try them. If you find you don't mind having one sided pedals and you do want reflectors on your pedals they should at least accomplish that. Most of us rely more on lights though, I suspect.

Ken

Get these Keen SPD sandals. http://www.keenfootwear.com/product/fw09/shoes/men/pedal/commuter/bison!%20bossa%20nova

and some nice modern pedals. For example, http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_514369_-1_201991_10000_200410

Great answer!
The OP wanted to ride with KEEN sandals and you found some SPD KEEN sandals! :D
I would advice not to go with toeclips and to use these sandals in combination with Shimano A530 or M324 hybrid pedals (as sixtyfiver mentioned), so you can still use the bike without needing SPD shoes at all times.

Nothing better than riding in SPD sandals! Happy feet! Toeclips hurt my feet. Shoes hurt my feet too. Ouch!

Aren't the OPs sandals SPD sandals? what does he need clips for, just go clipless.

Aren't the OPs sandals SPD sandals? what does he need clips for, just go clipless.


no, mine are just regular Keen Newports that I've been wearing daily 9 months of the year for a couple years now.

If you don't absolutely need clips and want a clipless pedal that works with ANY shoe, you might try the Shimano M545. I use them on all of my bikes, tandem, mountain and road. They're slightly clunky, but not too bad. Advantages: Seem easier (faster) to clip in than other SPD pedals I've used, both sides are the same so no fumbling for the correct side, and with non-cleated shoes they feel just like plain (non-clipless) pedals.

http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/pedals/mountain/product.-code-PD-M545.-type-pd_mountain.html

Sdold, they look almost exactly the same as the PDM647 pedals and I found those to be unusable with casual shoes since the clip sticks out of the cage.
Are you sure you can use those 545's with normal shoes and that your shoe touches the whole cage without the clip poking into your sole?

They do look like the 657s. I do notice it when I'm in something with thin soles like topsiders, but the ball of my foot falls right in between the two fore/aft parts of the SPD piece, so I don't mind. With anything with a harder sole (running shoes, etc) I don't feel it. The thing that's slightly more annoying is that it's not as wide as most plain pedals, so now that I think about it, sandals might not be too great with them. I'd say they're best for someone who rides 90% of the time with cleats, but needs something that still works pretty well for trips to the store.

no, mine are just regular Keen Newports that I've been wearing daily 9 months of the year for a couple years now.

I justified buying bicycle specific shoes on the grounds that my regular shoes would get less wear and thus last longer. Is there room in your heart and in your closet for another pair of Keen sandals?

You are going to love the convenience and comfort of SPD sandals. The ones I've used feel like foot sized, foot shaped pedals with comfortable straps gently but firmly holding my bare feet in exactly the preferred position. Quite nice. Awesome solution to your problem.

Why do you want to use toeclips? I'd prefer a plain flat pedal with sandals. In fact, that's what I'm currently using.

I completely agree with what qmsdc15 said.
I only recently made the switch to SPD clickpedals and I can hardly picture myself riding without them anymore.
They are especially superb for doing very aggressive climbing on rough tracks or cobblestones.
You should indeed not count the price of the shoe ... if you look around a bit you can easily find SPD shoes that are about the same price as regular shoes, and you won't have to tear open the soles of your leisure shoes by hammering your pedals, so in the end it may even turn out cheaper.

I LOVE my Keen Commuters. And can't imagine riding without being clipped in for any real distance, though I do have the double sided pedals on the MTB.

This is (http://www.amazon.com/Zefal-Bicycle-Half-Toe-Clips/dp/B000AO9K9S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1280172907&sr=8-1) what I use:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/11KLMzftGIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I have SPD clips on my real mountain bike. I had old school toeclips on my real road bike (until my $#@$#@ teenage son swapped my Campy Nuevo Record pedals for some funky used SPD's he scrounged).... but the bike I'm riding most is a hybrid aka comfort bike, for riding around town, commuting, etc, where I want to be able to ride in whatever sandals, street shoes, maybe even light hiking boots, I don't want to have to change to something special to hop on this thing and spin around town.

Toeclips add nothing but pain to riding in sandals, sneakers, hiking boots. Toe clips were never worth a damn, but that was all we had. They were designed to work with cleated shoes that slotted onto the pedal cage. They sucked for recreational cycling with regular shoes or even with cycling specific touring shoes, but as I said, that's all we had.

I concur with what you say about clips 'n' hiking boots, but I had no trouble using my old toeclips with the right pair of 'sneakers' (more typically in my case, a walking shoe with a stiff sole that wasn't deep lugged.... these (http://www.rei.com/product/781798?preferredSku=7817980233) are my current walking shoes... in the old days, it was Nike's classic Lava Dome circa early 80s). obviously, vintage 'sandals' were a no-go, but my keens are more like ventilated shoes than sandals in many ways..

I found toeclips with said cleated shoes worked great, your foot was one with the pedal, which is what counts. Yes, it took considerable practice to get smooth and fast at getting into them after a stop. yes, crashing when your straps were tight could be painful (although as long as the straps weren't *too* tight, a sharp snap up and back would free your foot without having to loosen the strap first). yes, walking in those old Italian cycling shoes with metal cleat plates was a pain.

I ride in toe clips all the time and have no issues with them.

While I do not use toeclips, I do have Shimano 324's and Shimano MT41G's. The pedals have a clipless and a platform side, and I can use whatever shoes I want---usually though, I ride with the cycling shoes. The pedals were on my Raleigh C-2000 and now on my Giant Rapid 3. I love them.

This is (http://www.amazon.com/Zefal-Bicycle-Half-Toe-Clips/dp/B000AO9K9S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1280172907&sr=8-1) what I use:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/11KLMzftGIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I use basically the same thing except they're the ones made by Nashbar.

They're really nice, much more convenient than the ones with straps.

Nevertheless I do plan on making the transition to clipless as soon as my budget allows.

Interesting conversation and I am interested in learning more about those Keen sandals. Do they make specific sandals for cycling?

Anyway, I ditched clipless (used Speedplay Frogs religiously for years) a few years ago for BMX pegged platform pedals. I've never looked back.

I can ride in any kind of shoe and never have to worry about hot foot, special shoes, clipping out at stops, etc. I sometimes still wear my DeFeet socks and Shimano sandals, but on the platform pedals. My feet never slip and I don't have to worry about toting about special shoes.

It is so comfortable, carefree, and convenient.

Interesting conversation and I am interested in learning more about those Keen sandals. Do they make specific sandals for cycling?
.

well, those keens I show in the first post are their regular Keens Newports, they have dozens of styles of regular sandals based on a walking shoe like platform, with a toe cap, and varying levels of coverage from mostly shoe to mostly air. Newports are their original design. here's a whole pile fo them...
http://www.zappos.com/mens-keen-sandals

they now have a special SPD compatible sandal, that looks very similar to the Newport H2....
http://www.zappos.com/images/744/7449806/9994-712861-p.jpg (http://www.zappos.com/keen-commuter-black-keen-yellow)

btw, Keens are also quite waterproof, in fact, they make great boat shoes, even the leather ones hold up to repeated extended exposures to salt water.

my original question, and something I decided to test for myself, is how well will my sandals work with toeclips on classic (not bmx) platform pedals. the pedals get here in a day or so and I'll know soon enough.

Interesting conversation and I am interested in learning more about those Keen sandals. Do they make specific sandals for cycling?

Anyway, I ditched clipless (used Speedplay Frogs religiously for years) a few years ago for BMX pegged platform pedals. I've never looked back.

I can ride in any kind of shoe and never have to worry about hot foot, special shoes, clipping out at stops, etc. I sometimes still wear my DeFeet socks and Shimano sandals, but on the platform pedals. My feet never slip and I don't have to worry about toting about special shoes.

It is so comfortable, carefree, and convenient.

Hmm, that's exactly how sandals in clipless pedals feel to me, carefree, comfortable, and convenient, in that order. But I've never worried about hot foot, special shoes or clipping in and out.

To tell you the truth though, I'm currently using the same pegged bmx pedals you describe. In fact, one of my sandals is missing the cleat. Only my Sunday ride has clipless pedals.

I used toeclips for decades, but I'm having trouble remembering why.

I saw a girl riding barefoot yesterday. Downtown, not at the beach!

The reason you use toeclips or clipless is so you can spin faster and lift your feet on the upstroke. this adds signficant power, as well as making you a smoother rider.

anyways, toeclip report, from driveway testing just now...

installed my MKS GR-9 platforms and cheap plastic toeclips...

first up, tried what i was wearing, my New Balance walking shoes, model MK955. Worked great, my muscle memory remembers the toeclip dance very well, and in fact, those NB walkers work very nicely in them. had absolutely no trouble putting foot in, taking foot out, repeatedly while doing laps around my driveway with my dog chasing me (she loves this game!).

2nd up, I swapped the NB's for my Keen Newports. Hmmm, these are really wide (size 12) and stick out over an inch wider than the platform pedal :( ... Hmmmm, the straps of the sandal kinda hang up on the toeclip straps, bummer. yes, I can wear them, yes, i can ride in them, probably be OK for a 5-10 mile around town ride, but if I have the strap sufficiently tight to keep the sandal base from lifting off the pedal on an up stroke, then its pretty hard to get out of them without releasing the strap first, ugh.

so...

Good!
http://l3.zassets.com/images/749/7497760/10757-811310-d.jpg

Not so good...
http://l3.zassets.com/images/712/7128854/7954-124396-d.jpg

ah well. Just have to wear my NBs or my Merril Mocs (didn't try, but am sure they will work fine)

Anyway, I ditched clipless (used Speedplay Frogs religiously for years) a few years ago for BMX pegged platform pedals. I've never looked back.

I can ride in any kind of shoe and never have to worry about hot foot, special shoes, clipping out at stops, etc. I sometimes still wear my DeFeet socks and Shimano sandals, but on the platform pedals. My feet never slip and I don't have to worry about toting about special shoes.

It is so comfortable, carefree, and convenient.

+1

They're also more ergnomic than clipless and just as fast. Power on the upstroke is a myth; what matters is harnessing the power of mostly horizontal movement of the pedal at the bottom of a stroke and both clipless and pin pedals to this well.

The reason you use toeclips or clipless is so you can spin faster


BMX racers spin very fast on pin pedals. So do MTBers. And my spin rate hasn't dropped since I switched to them.



and lift your feet on the upstroke. this adds signficant power, as well as making you a smoother rider.


How can anyone ever have been stupid enough to believe this? Yet it is said so often. But the pedals are connected, and so an upstroke could only add power if it was stronger than the downstroke. Which it definitely is not!

Anyway, powermeters cleared the relative efficiency of clipless and pin pedals up long ago:



http://www.bikejames.com/cardio-training/top-3-clipless-pedal-myths/

Clips vs. flats: (again, using a bmx situation) I put out 2060 watts on a G-Cog (it`s like an SRM made specifically for BMX racing, and a device all of the US Olympic bmx team uses) equipped bmx bike clipped in over a 50 yard sprint. My best on platforms was just over 1800. Those results were consistent with everyone else participating, but so was the fact that the average power output got close and closer the longer the sprint was. There was a HUGE difference in how soon we hit max power clipped in.


With that said, on a mtb trail where you`ll spend FAR less time at max cadence the power outputs (I only speculate) would be likely identical. I turn in nearly identical lap times at most of our XC trails on flats or clipless, and riding flats is more fun. I grew up on flats, and even racing bmx at the pro level clipped in I pedaled the same way I do on flats. I basically used the clipless attachment to keep my feet on place through rhythm sections or pedaling through stuff you just couldn`t on platforms.


Pulling up: fact or fiction? FICTION. Focusing on the act of pulling up is a waste of time and energy. You *might* find yourself passively pulling up in anticipation of the next downstroke, but making a point of actively pulling up is just another detail to distract you from your ride.


And that's it. Unless you're a super-powerful sprinter and sprinting is crucial to you, then clipless are no better than pin pedals.

And that's it. Unless you're a super-powerful sprinter and sprinting is crucial to you, then clipless are no better than pin pedals.

tell that to century riders and road racers. I dunno many BMX riders who go for 20-25 miles (my longer hybrid road rides), never mind the sorts of distances that road riders run.

btw, your physics is wrong. the upstroke doesn't have to be stronger than the downstroke to add power. if the downstroke is, say, 30 N (newtons) of force, and the upstroke is 10 N, you're applying 40 N total.

tell that to century riders and road racers.


The opinion of riders can't disprove scientific measurements. For years riders believed that fast riders "toed" the pedals; high speed cameras eventually proved this was nonsense.



I dunno many BMX riders who go for 20-25 miles (my longer hybrid road rides), never mind the sorts of distances that road riders run.


Ahem: the powertap results say that the clipless advantage was only for short sprints. These are LESS relevant as distance increases! And I - and a lot of MTBers - have certainly ridden longer on pin pedals than 25 miles!



btw, your physics is wrong. the upstroke doesn't have to be stronger than the downstroke to add power. if the downstroke is, say, 30 N (newtons) of force, and the upstroke is 10 N, you're applying 40 N total.

Wrong. The upstroke can't pull because the cranks are connected - whichever stroke is more powerful will be faster and the other won't contribute power. There are special cranksets made where the two cranks are NOT connected just to avoid this; with such cranks, yes, the down foot could add 30 and the up foot another 10.

It's also amusing that they you don't even know where the biggest advantage of clipless (and pin) pedals lies - in the harnessing of power at the bottom of the stroke. Modern coaches don't talk about upstroke power anymore but of the "scrape" or "scoop" at the bottom - read Carmichael's (he trains Armstrong) book.

Bottom line: you can't argue with a powermeter! Or you can, but it is a waste of time unless you enjoy being wrong.

That said, unlike those BMX bandits, I just can't get a decent bunny hop without being clipped in. Poor skills on my part!

Wrong. The upstroke can't pull because the cranks are connected - whichever stroke is more powerful will be faster and the other won't contribute power.

your physics is bogus.

take a crank, position it so its level, hang a weight on a chain around its back side, and put sufficient weight on the 'forward' pedal to balance the weight on the chain. now lift up gently on the back crank arm. what happens?

Also, even as a way out of shape pedaler, while I may not be actually lifting up on the upstroke with any significant power, I'm completely unloading the weight of my own leg, using a different set of muscles than my primary power source. if I try this without clips or clipless, I have to really concentrate to keep my foot from floating off the pedal, this detracts from my overall effort. the clips or clipless keeps my foot on the optimal spot on the pedal without any thinking about it

So far as I'm concerned the biggest advantage of clipping in is the feet stay firmly on the pedals until there is a conscious decision to remove them. And those sandals mention in post # 35 are Keen Commuters, they're all I ride in anymore, even in winter (add heavy wool socks though, and toe warmers when it gets really cold). They're totally comfortable and you get the wildest looking foot tan evar.

your physics is bogus.

take a crank, position it so its level, hang a weight on a chain around its back side, and put sufficient weight on the 'forward' pedal to balance the weight on the chain. now lift up gently on the back crank arm. what happens?


Wrong. Why?

1. Weights aren't muscles - gravity acts with the same acceleration on all weights, but a weak leg muscle will be slower than a powerful leg muscle

2. The powermeter says that you are wrong. You might imagine that amateur century riders would agree with you, but professional sports scientists have found that your belief is wrong and modern coaches have accepted this. Arguing that the world was flat was never that bright, but after Columbus made it back to Spain it became utterly idiotic.



Also, even as a way out of shape pedaler, while I may not be actually lifting up on the upstroke with any significant power, I'm completely unloading the weight of my own leg, using a different set of muscles than my primary power source. if I try this without clips or clipless, I have to really concentrate to keep my foot from floating off the pedal

If you want to argue that you are so inept that you stand no chance of pedalling efficiently without clipless pedals, I'm not even interesting in arguing. For all I know you should be using training wheels too. But extrapolating from this to a belief that training wheels would make everyone else faster would still be silly.

So far as I'm concerned the biggest advantage of clipping in is the feet stay firmly on the pedals until there is a conscious decision to remove them.

I don't know if I've ever had a foot come off a pedal accidentally, but sure. That's sane enough reasoning.

Otoh, if you need to get a foot down really fast then with clipless you're done for, which is why pin pedals are becoming favourites in some types of MTB competitions, despite their inferior sprinting power. This saved my neck last year when I hit gravel turning on to a country road with a Landrover much too close behind. Grey gravel on a grey road on a grey day in a grey shadow - there really should be a law saying that gravel should be painted orange before it can be moved by truck.

More commonly, there's quite concern that clipless pedals are associated with repetitive use injuries. Pedal makers try to add "float" to counter this, but even the high end systems aren't as free as, well, pedalling free:

http://www.bikejames.com/cardio-training/barefoot-pedaling-do-clipless-increase-overuse-injuries/

http://bjsportmed.com/content/38/3/340.full

Clipless are the right tech for many forms of racing, where it is reasonable to expect even amateur athletes to inform themselves (most don't, but that is their problem) and to be willing to sacrifice health for a greater chance of victory. But it is alarming seeing many commuters riding them without even minimal awareness, all based on the whackoid concept that anything good for racing in the TDF much be good for their commute.

Meanwhile, you say power on the upstroke is a myth.
Yet ... you quote someone saying "There was a HUGE difference in how soon we hit max power clipped in."
So basicly you are contradicting yourself in your own "proof".

You also say: "The upstroke can't pull because the cranks are connected - whichever stroke is more powerful will be faster and the other won't contribute power"
As Mr. Pierce pointed out, this is complete nonsense and putting it in bold format will not make it more valid.
If you have two arms on a crank and put power on both arms turning that crank in the same direction ... the simple physics behind this are: "Power1 + Power2 = TotalPower"

Powertests may have pointed out that pulling up isn't usefull for doing long distances, but as you have stated yourself by quoting some BMXer ... being clipped in and pulling up does make you reach your maximum power output faster ... simply because more power can be transferred in the same time.
This proves that pulling up is good for a few things:
-Accelerating
-Short steep climbs

I only use my pull-up ability for these two things and find it to be very usefull :)

Good post, Terrierman.

meanwhile, Clipless aren't really hard to get out of in a hurry, for instance I have jumped from clipless over my handlebars when my bike was flipping forwards.

I believe clipless with good float are much better for my knees than pinned BMX pedals which have a great deal of friction while loaded, ie., no float.

Adelaar, I do not believe pulling up is an efficient use of a rider's energy. Do not focus on pushing down either. Strive for a smooth, round pedal stroke. Push pedals forward at the top and pull back at the bottom. Unweight rear pedal. Remove weight from saddle to increase power. The push/pull at top and bottom won't add power, just get you through the dead spot without complete loss of power transmission, keeping pedals rotating at a steadier rate, not lurching forward on the power stroke.

Wrong. Why?

1. Weights aren't muscles - gravity acts with the same acceleration on all weights, but a weak leg muscle will be slower than a powerful leg muscle


Why? Very simple physics, that is why. Both pedals are connected so both move at the same speed. If you are clipped in the weaker leg cannot move slower than the stronger leg, it is impossible. The weaker leg either exerts a force on its pedal or not. If not it contributes nothing to the power being transferred to the bicycle drive. If it exerts a force opposed to the motion of the pedal (the limp leg argument) then the power it generates subtracts from the power the stronger leg is developing. If it generates a force in the direction of motion it will add to the power the stronger leg is generating. Every credible physicist and mechanical engineer since Isaac Newton will tell you the same thing. If a power meter is telling you anything different it is a broken power meter or you are using it inexpertly.

As a mater of fact, what careful scientific studies of this matter all agree on is that pulling up with your trailing leg generates more power but it does so inefficiently. If you are racing and are in a situation where you need to generate the maximum power you can to win then you pull up with your trailing leg, it is the only option available to you to generate the power level you want to reach. If you are distance riding in general, and this is true even during the bulk of most race riding, then you want to lift your rear leg only enough to prevent it from being a drag on your progress, because that is the most efficient way to propel yourself. You will ride longer, if that is your goal, and you will save energy that will be available for that mad sprint for the finish line if you are racing.

Ken

I completely agree with khutch there.
I do 10 to 20 mile rides that do not completely exhaust me and so I am able to add some upward power on the steep climbs.
If I would do 100 mile rides ... I would definately not do that since it is too exhausting ;)

I completely agree with khutch there.
I do 10 to 20 mile rides that do not completely exhaust me and so I am able to add some upward power on the steep climbs.
If I would do 100 mile rides ... I would definately not do that since it is too exhausting ;)

I agree that his post seems well reasoned and there is nothing in his post that I know to be wrong, but khutch has said nothing in favor of pulling up the back pedal while climbing. He only suggests pulling up in a sprint. You can learn from the body of knowledge about biomechanics as it relates to bicycling, or you can reject accepted theories and try a new way.

Without people questioning accepted knowledge, we would have no progress, but most people who think outside the box are just wrong. Balance your perceptions against the ideas of those with expertise, before coming to conclusions.

Meanwhile, you say power on the upstroke is a myth.
Yet ... you quote someone saying "There was a HUGE difference in how soon we hit max power clipped in."
So basicly you are contradicting yourself in your own "proof".


I can understand that you might think this, but if so you are thinking poorly. The giveway is that THE RATE at which maximum power was achieved was the greatest difference: ie the extra power came from better pedal location. Pulling up MAY have occurred (in these special circumstances ony to some degree) but you can not ASSUME that it did.



You also say: "The upstroke can't pull because the cranks are connected - whichever stroke is more powerful will be faster and the other won't contribute power"
As Mr. Pierce pointed out, this is complete nonsense and putting it in bold format will not make it more valid.
If you have two arms on a crank and put power on both arms turning that crank in the same direction ... the simple physics behind this are: "Power1 + Power2 = TotalPower"


Wrong. You obviously don't even have a basic understanding of physics (in which I do have a degree, btw.) Power will only be applied at the lifting crank if the lift is faster than the push down at the opposite crank; without this no force is applied and no power is transmitted. This is why I explained - it obviously went over your head - that muscles and weights are very different things; all weights fall at the same speed (neglecting air resistance) but muscle contractions can occur at very different speeds - a weak muscle lifting a leg will move more slowly than a strong one working with gravity.

As for WHY people like you insist on making "scientific" arguments on subjects from bicycles to UFOs without understanding the most basic physics, I have no idea. But on behalf of everyone on the internet who can find the determinant of a matrix: please shut up until you have read a book.



Powertests may have pointed out that pulling up isn't usefull for doing long distances, but as you have stated yourself by quoting some BMXer ... being clipped in and pulling up does make you reach your maximum power output faster ... simply because more power can be transferred in the same time.


The above is a ludicrous mis-statement. "Powertests may have pointed out that pulling up isn't usefull for doing long distances" - wrong. The powermeters showed that that being clipped in was only useful for elite athletes who were SPRINTING. Not just that, but only for their very SHORTEST sprints.




This proves that pulling up is good for a few things:
-Accelerating


The olympic level athletes only found being clipped was an advantage in their most powerful sprints. Believe me, you don't produce nearly this output when you accelerate. Even they don't 90% of the time. If you're in good shape and making the sort of burst of acceleration you can only keep going for a few seconds then, based on the figures from the test, you might get a 10% advantage.



-Short steep climbs


For a rider in very good condition, riding all out, yes. Being clipped might give about a 10% advantage. For VERY short climbs.

However, if you make maximal efforts like this in ordinary riding, you're an idiot. Cranking up to this sort of power level even when warmed up and in good shape always involves a risk of injury.