Touring - Help me pick an offroad touring bike.

Hi guys. Looking seriously for an offroad touring bike. By offroad I mean logging roads, rail to trails, simple single track and double track and of course pavement. Not hardcore offroad over cliffs with panniers acting as sails or anything ;)

The list so far:

Salsa Fargo (http://salsacycles.com/bikes/fargo/)

This is on the top of my list. I have no way to test ride it though, but it has what I want.. 29er, wide tires, MTB frame with a touring package. I read there are some issues with a squirrely front end when loaded but that's not an issue as I tour light and just putting a sleeping bag or light load up front is fine for me.


Rans Alterra or Dynamik (http://ransbikes.com/Alterra.htm)

I am a Rans fan, and I enjoy my crank forward, but for offroad touring I would want a more upright bike then the crank forward I have now. The Alterra fits the bill. Also they are bloody comfortable.

Kona Sutra (http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=sutra)

Hoping to test this next week... seems like it would handle offroad fine with the right tires, more cyclo crossy though.


Norco Cabot (http://www.norco.com/bikes/road/touring/cabot/)

Another choice that would be more cyclocrossy offroad, good or bad?


Any other suggestions?

Hi guys. Looking seriously for an offroad touring bike. By offroad I mean logging roads, rail to trails, simple single track and double track and of course pavement. Not hardcore offroad over cliffs with panniers acting as sails or anything ;)

The list so far:

Salsa Fargo (http://salsacycles.com/bikes/fargo/)

This is on the top of my list. I have no way to test ride it though, but it has what I want.. 29er, wide tires, MTB frame with a touring package. I read there are some issues with a squirrely front end when loaded but that's not an issue as I tour light and just putting a sleeping bag or light load up front is fine for me.


Rans Alterra or Dynamik (http://ransbikes.com/Alterra.htm)

I am a Rans fan, and I enjoy my crank forward, but for offroad touring I would want a more upright bike then the crank forward I have now. The Alterra fits the bill. Also they are bloody comfortable.

Kona Sutra (http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=sutra)

Hoping to test this next week... seems like it would handle offroad fine with the right tires, more cyclo crossy though.


Norco Cabot (http://www.norco.com/bikes/road/touring/cabot/)

Another choice that would be more cyclocrossy offroad, good or bad?


Any other suggestions?

I don't know that any of these would be suitable for what you want to do. For off-road touring, a conventional hardtail or a Moots YBB would be a better choice. Get them with a fork that can be locked out and you'll have a machine that can handle pavement and everything else you want to throw at it. If you go to Revelate Designs (http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/), you can even get bags that make off-road touring easier than dragging around a trailer or trying to loft a bike loaded with panniers. I'm planning on purchasing these bags for exploring old mountain railbeds here in Colorado (not smooth railtrails but rockier flatish roads)

I've done off-road touring like you are planning on a conventional rigid mountain bike with front and rear bags, as well as on a hardtail pulling a trailer and the Moots pulling a trailer. The rigid bike will beat you to pieces. The hardtail with shock is much more comfortable and the Moots takes enough edge off the rear hits (remember you won't be able to lift the bike over the bumps like you would an unloaded bike) to make it a worthwhile investment...especially if you can find a used one.

If you're touring light, look a the Salsa Vaya. Same setup as the Fargo, but built lighter. Fargo's a tank.

I just rode 280 miles of the Great Divide MTB Trail on one last month - which is pretty much the same offroad conditions you describe - and was very happy with it.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MmLgZUapzi0/TA63v0P9LAI/AAAAAAAAAb8/AhYR_vJ8lvM/s1600/2010-06-07-12.59.20-759479.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3437/3202769784_6375171bc1_b.jpg

Surly Pugsley makes an awesome dirt/gravel road touring machine (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vikapproved/sets/72157610461277546/). It's also a super fun bike to mess about on closer to home. It can be run with the 4" wide tires which are no harder to pedal that a typical 2.1-2.2" MTB knobby. You can also run 29er MTB rims and any touring/MTB tires you feel like.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/3685670568_e3be369422_b.jpg

My buddy and I rode two fully loaded Pugsleys ~450kms on the CDN GDR last year (http://thelazyrando.wordpress.com/tag/cdn-gdr/)...longest day was ~140kms uphill over a pass.

Don't let the big wheels fool you these bikes can roll fast and give a very cushy ride on rough roads.

FYI, one person's bad experience with a Fargo, including a response by Salsa:

http://www.adventurecycling.org/forums/index.php?topic=6948.0

Near the end of the thread, another poster details his problems with the bike.

Mine!! Or get a Thorn Sterling frame and build it up just the way you like it.

I'd love to have a 29er, but they're just too much of a liability of you're going anywhere adventurous (Asia, South America etc) - 26" wheels and parts are much more universally available.

Wow read through those threads about the woman wrecking and dying from shimmy.

It struck home for me because on some of those rodes in Oregon, (and before lowriders but with front panniers) I had similary shimmy on my Paramount and just got into the habit of clamping my top tube with my knees on steep descents. Good to know that is a valid issue

Check out www.bikepacking.net. They have write ups on setups and gear.

Kev

How about a Co-Motion Pangea (http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/pangea.html)? It is pretty expensive but Co-Motion has a great reputation and seems to fit the bill.

Vintage MTB is also a great way to go. All the braze-ons you need and totally bomb-proof.

if you just want your bike for simple single track, plus whatever pavement lies in between, I think a conventional touring bike will do you just fine. I've done quite a bit of off-road riding with my loaded Trek 620, and it's never given me much of a problem. Just mount wider tires than usual, and go slow if the terrain calls for it. The real fun is how you set it up, dirt drop handlebars and a thin 29er tire (or fat cyclocross, depending on your viewpoint) can make it a pretty capable mountain bike, if you go gingerly.

you can pretty much use any MTB for off road touring
it really depends on "how" you tour

personally I've been into the BikePacking method.
racks, panniers, etc... its a whole lot of stuff to carry, and if you ride a ton, there is a good chance that something will break
I mean to say...
that racks and panniers typically have some kind of slapping around that goes on in between the pannier and rack
so hot spots develop
and welds are prone to break.

ok...
ok...
ok...
ya right

I also have used my Pug for a ton of touring and it has racks and bags... never broke a rack
nor have i broken an Old Man Mountain Rack

but really...
In comparison to using frame bags...
and simply reducing your gear...

its a much better option.

when it comes to touring, the route, provisions, resources, etc...
its infinitely variable

I'd say, if you have touring experience
and if you have MTB experience
try your best to morph in the direction of MTB -> Touring
vs
Touring -> MTB


my current setup is a custom Hunter 29er that pretty much does everything
it has braze ons for racks, fenders, et al

But its the best with just frame bags.

the method with racks, leads to large baggage
most of the time, if you have the luggage, you will fill it

the question becomes what comfort do you want?
comfort in camp?
comfort on the bike?

I've done some touring on the cheap where I am literally living On The Road, lots of rain, little to no money, etc...
so I'd carry a 4 man tipi complete with wood burning stove.

The Big Dummy is more than capable to haul, even fire wood and an axe...

however, I will say that I really do like a 29er!

depends on your finance...

I'd consider a Surly Karate Monkey
a Salsa El Maraichi Ti
a Dos Niner

uhh... a Niner Carbon Air?!

the list is just about infinite...

Thorn Sterling
(http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/ravensterling.html)

IM happy with my tout terrain silkroad. I built it with drop bars, and have ridden it on everything from paved roads, to fireroads, to rocky, rough singletrack since i finished the build 3 months ago. It has handled all these terrains admirably with a decent sized load. The integrated rack is incredibly stout, and makes my tubus logo look flexy. I have the rohloff version which is wonderful. pricey, but totally worth it for a nice balance of road/MTB characteristics. It can easily fit 2 inch marathon XR with 60mm fenders, but most of the time i use 40mm marathon supremes.

the handling is impeccable.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3437/3202769784_6375171bc1_b.jpg

Surly Pugsley makes an awesome dirt/gravel road touring machine (http://www.flickr.com/photos/vikapproved/sets/72157610461277546/). It's also a super fun bike to mess about on closer to home. It can be run with the 4" wide tires which are no harder to pedal that a typical 2.1-2.2" MTB knobby. You can also run 29er MTB rims and any touring/MTB tires you feel like.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/3685670568_e3be369422_b.jpg

My buddy and I rode two fully loaded Pugsleys ~450kms on the CDN GDR last year (http://thelazyrando.wordpress.com/tag/cdn-gdr/)...longest day was ~140kms uphill over a pass.

Don't let the big wheels fool you these bikes can roll fast and give a very cushy ride on rough roads.

Actually i was indeed eying the pug up, I have wanted one of those since I first saw them. My only concern is that it would be rather complicated to get built and theres zero tire choice with the large marge (to me the point of the pugsley is to use those rims). What is the deal with the special dishing required? is that for any pugsly frame or is it just if you use disk brakes.


Check out www.bikepacking.net. They have write ups on setups and gear.

Kev


Thanks first time I heard of that site... I didnt know there was a name for offroad touring heh.


Thorn Sterling
(http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/ravensterling.html)


bloody gorgeous bike, i fear it is a bit more then i want to spend, looking at the $2000 range max... but that frame is certainly on the list!


Vintage MTB is also a great way to go. All the braze-ons you need and totally bomb-proof.


yes, that is another option i was considering. I picked up a nice late '80s Japanese MTB from a thrift store for $15 and restored it, it has all the braze ons for racks and 3x bottle holder lol. I have considered stripping the frame and using it. The only thing i dont like is the fact that I cant use disk brakes, also buying new stuff is fun! its still a possibility. i think I will brooks saddlze it and see how it goes.

lots of choices out there
GT Peace Tour? http://www.downcycles.com/store/2010-peace-tour-p-1128.html
GT Peace 9er? http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/ProductDisplay?storeId=10052&langId=-1&catalogId=10551&productId=1074268&cm_mmc=$(referrer)$-_-Bikes/Frames-_-GT-_-30-1470&CSE=GooglePS&mr:trackingCode=F918BC46-A681-DE11-B7F3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA

http://www.rei.com/product/784254

lots to chose from

oh..

what size?

bloody gorgeous bike, i fear it is a bit more then i want to spend, looking at the $2000 range max... but that frame is certainly on the list!

Yeah, I know what you mean. They're pricey, but I'm not sure you can buy better.



yes, that is another option i was considering. I picked up a nice late '80s Japanese MTB from a thrift store for $15 and restored it, it has all the braze ons for racks and 3x bottle holder lol. I have considered stripping the frame and using it. The only thing i dont like is the fact that I cant use disk brakes, also buying new stuff is fun! its still a possibility. i think I will brooks saddlze it and see how it goes.

Not a bad idea. And I wouldn't worry about the discs, good V-brakes have serious stopping power. You could indulge your taste for new stuff by speccing up the wheels and other components...

Y. You could indulge your taste for new stuff by speccing up the wheels and other components...

or camping equipment...
or an airplane ticket...

I don't know that any of these would be suitable for what you want to do. For off-road touring, a conventional hardtail or a Moots YBB would be a better choice. Get them with a fork that can be locked out and you'll have a machine that can handle pavement and everything else you want to throw at it. If you go to Revelate Designs (http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/), you can even get bags that make off-road touring easier than dragging around a trailer or trying to loft a bike loaded with panniers. I'm planning on purchasing these bags for exploring old mountain railbeds here in Colorado (not smooth railtrails but rockier flatish roads)

I've done off-road touring like you are planning on a conventional rigid mountain bike with front and rear bags, as well as on a hardtail pulling a trailer and the Moots pulling a trailer. The rigid bike will beat you to pieces. The hardtail with shock is much more comfortable and the Moots takes enough edge off the rear hits (remember you won't be able to lift the bike over the bumps like you would an unloaded bike) to make it a worthwhile investment...especially if you can find a used one.

First time I have seen the Revelate Designs stuff, which looks cool but dam this stuff makes Ortlieb look cheap. Probably pretty good stuff though.

any bike will be fine.

Regarding the Salsas, some of their official dealers listed on their website tell me by email they will pretty much build whatever components any desired Salsa frame.
Personally I use a vintage MTB for off road tours over trails not very rough and a Bruce Gordon BLT with 26 in wheels for pavement touring with only short side trips down logging roads (in order to camp in the forest away from the asphalt. Other more rugged bikes have been mentioned in this thread and if you don't mind ineffiecient pedaling over smooth surfaces, they would be a better choice for all round touring, I imagine. But I don't have the patience to drive a tanktruck down the highway.

First time I have seen the Revelate Designs stuff, which looks cool but dam this stuff makes Ortlieb look cheap. Probably pretty good stuff though.

It's not that expensive, really. The frame bag is around $150 but it's custom made to fit your frame. The handlebar bag is very reasonable. The seat bag is a little expensive but not overly so considering what it does. I've priced out a whole outfit for around $450. Front and rear Ortlieb bags and an Ortlieb handlebar bag will cost about the same.

seems to me you're covering a huge range of bikes for a fairly specific type of terrain. With front shocks you can go down a hill at 15mph that you might not want to go down at 10mph and with a lockout you have little penalty on hard roads and uphill. Folks like Asana Cycles who travel light and are probably pretty athletic off road can tolerate bouncy stuff with technique but if you aren't of like disposition front shocks will go a long way for making the ride pleasant and under control.

It's not that expensive, really. The frame bag is around $150 but it's custom made to fit your frame. The handlebar bag is very reasonable. The seat bag is a little expensive but not overly so considering what it does. I've priced out a whole outfit for around $450. Front and rear Ortlieb bags and an Ortlieb handlebar bag will cost about the same.

That's he first time I heard of that as well, very interesting idea to use only frame bags, I will certainly look into that.

Jeez a ti bike with framebags, it'd be like your tour was just one long session.

Wow read through those threads about the woman wrecking and dying from shimmy.

I was intrigued by this post, and just to clarify for anyone else -- I think it refers to a link in the Adventure Cycling thread referenced hear about a woman who died in 2004 after (apparently) suffering severe shimmy on a downhill descent on a road bike. It's a good reminder of the dangers of encountering shimmy on high speed descents, but not necessarily relevant to any of the particular bikes mentioned here.

I was intrigued by this post, and just to clarify for anyone else -- I think it refers to a link in the Adventure Cycling thread referenced hear about a woman who died in 2004 after (apparently) suffering severe shimmy on a downhill descent on a road bike. It's a good reminder of the dangers of encountering shimmy on high speed descents, but not necessarily relevant to any of the particular bikes mentioned here.

I read that post as well, before I even posted this thread as it comes up on Google. Not sure what to make of it. The guy comes across as a whiny blow hard who can't get over it, but at the same time it could be a real issue.

The question i have is, why is this not an issue with MTB's loaded with panniers since most MTBs are not designed for loads like that? That's why I was going for a touring specific bike and making it more mountain bike like.

The frame bag idea is great I just don't know if I would get my custom bag in time for touring, and it is more expensive than panniers from MEC (I sold my Arkel recumbent panniers last year).

I read that post as well, before I even posted this thread as it comes up on Google. Not sure what to make of it. The guy comes across as a whiny blow hard who can't get over it, but at the same time it could be a real issue. .

The Adventure Cycling thread reflects what has been said elsewhere: the Salsa Fargo seems to be very particular about how the front panniers are loaded. Salsa says that (see their contributions in the Adventure Cycling thread). Dirt Rag magazine pointed that out in one of the first reviews of the bike. Other owners have reported that. I have no personal experience with one myself.

A '4130' 29er for the win. I'm slowly buying my gear. Unemployed in California sucks.

161315

That's he first time I heard of that as well, very interesting idea to use only frame bags, I will certainly look into that.



there's a whole movement in that exact direction.
BikePacking

http://www.CarouselDesignWorks.com
http://www.adventurecycling.org/

its even becoming mainstream
http://www.adventurecycling.org/store/index.cfm/product/538_85/carousel-design-works-escape-pod-saddle-pack-medium.cfm

lots of ways to tour/camp

I read that post as well, before I even posted this thread as it comes up on Google. Not sure what to make of it. The guy comes across as a whiny blow hard who can't get over it, but at the same time it could be a real issue.

The question i have is, why is this not an issue with MTB's loaded with panniers since most MTBs are not designed for loads like that? That's why I was going for a touring specific bike and making it more mountain bike like.

The frame bag idea is great I just don't know if I would get my custom bag in time for touring, and it is more expensive than panniers from MEC (I sold my Arkel recumbent panniers last year).

this bike would shimmy when I took my hands off the bars.
it was a Salsa Moto Rapido with a SID fork, OMM racks, CrossMax wheelset, SRAM X.O groupo
it was a very nice XC bike! it totally kicked ass in the dirt. as a race bike.
as a loaded touring bike... not so good.

I'm not totally sure what the deal was with that bike, but I think it was the fact that I chose a front rack that placed the panniers up high

now days, I have a front rack for The Hunter that has both options for the panniers, high and low. (ultimate low rider from Old Man Mountain)
no shimmies

Ha! On that other thread when you said "tipi with wood burning stove" I thought you were joking... that's hilarious!


Thanks for the links, I am feeling dumb now thinking I needed some "pannier loving" specific bike for touring so I could clamp them down and not have anything rattle loose. I think I am most certainly going to go the bike packing route. I hate pannier racks anyway, but at the same time I am not the biggest fan of trailers off roading. I have a 2 wheel trailer that is fantastic for groceries and errands (once I brought home a computer chair in it) but a huge pain to lift over obstacles.

On the roads panniers are not an issue but I discovered from my previous touring that I enjoy going off the beaten path more often then not... who needs rattly bulky panniers! I guess it kind of opens up what bikes I can pick now.


there's a whole movement in that exact direction.
BikePacking

http://www.CarouselDesignWorks.com
http://www.adventurecycling.org/

its even becoming mainstream
http://www.adventurecycling.org/store/index.cfm/product/538_85/carousel-design-works-escape-pod-saddle-pack-medium.cfm

lots of ways to tour/camp

The frame bag idea is great I just don't know if I would get my custom bag in time for touring, and it is more expensive than panniers from MEC (I sold my Arkel recumbent panniers last year).

I will say this much about my personal quest to move to frame bags.

for me it was a process

that is:
touring often goes like this

1. pick the gear, and find the bags to cram it into
2. pick the bags, and find the gear to fit the bag.

that is to say, you will probably always fill what baggage you choose.
if you have 4 panniers, you will probably fill them

with the "BikePacking" method, you have to be much more discriminate with what you choose.

these days, lets say for instance touring Portland to LA in the next month, I'm pretty sure I could do that trip with just a front handle bar bag, and the big seatpost bag.
maybe a backpack... thats a big maybe

because the reality of that route and time of year is that there are towns every 30 miles or so, water is pretty much everywhere, Big Sur could pose some issues... but i live in this section, so its easy enough for me to simply ride 125 miles and go Monterey to Morro Bay...

so gear, and packing
comes down to time and resource management
+ ability & knowledge
explicit and tacit reasoning...

if you haven't already found this...

here's a big long Salsa Fargo thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=7147916#post7147916

Ha! On that other thread when you said "tipi with wood burning stove" I thought you were joking... that's hilarious!


Thanks for the links, I am feeling dumb now thinking I needed some "pannier loving" specific bike for touring so I could clamp them down and not have anything rattle loose. I think I am most certainly going to go the bike packing route. I hate pannier racks anyway, but at the same time I am not the biggest fan of trailers off roading. I have a 2 wheel trailer that is fantastic for groceries and errands (once I brought home a computer chair in it) but a huge pain to lift over obstacles.

On the roads panniers are not an issue but I discovered from my previous touring that I enjoy going off the beaten path more often then not... who needs rattly bulky panniers! I guess it kind of opens up what bikes I can pick now.

try to contact Scott Felter
he lives in Banff
and makes bags!
his part time biz is called Porcelain Rocket
http://theporcelainrocket.wordpress.com/
http://www.orangegirlphotographs.com/blog.cfm?postID=16&porcelain-rocket-frame-bags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qk3citGkIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPKVXYEjqcw&feature=related

there is a ton of this kind of stuff
some on my website too http://www.AsanaCycles.com

no joke... tipi and stove
http://www.youtube.com/user/SelfPropelledDevo#p/a/u/0/8dJtY1rsPXc

and thats the 4 man
I have an 8 man that I lived out of for 1.5yrs while using a BOB trailer

I was working at the local hospital
working the graveyard shift
7 days in a row with 7 days off

during those 7 days I'd ride in one direction, then turn around and go back to work...

I hate pannier racks anyway.

Just as a matter of interest, why? My racks weigh hardly anything, and certainly don't compromise handling, or portability, etc. I can see how you might find panniers a bind, but I've never found that they actually impede my progress. Yes, you can't easily lift a bike loaded with 40lbs of gear, but that is a function of weight rather than the conformation of the bags. And I hate riding with a backpack...

Just sayin'. I'd be interested in your perspective.

Just as a matter of interest, why? My racks weigh hardly anything, and certainly don't compromise handling, or portability, etc. I can see how you might find panniers a bind, but I've never found that they actually impede my progress. Yes, you can't easily lift a bike loaded with 40lbs of gear, but that is a function of weight rather than the conformation of the bags. And I hate riding with a backpack...

Just sayin'. I'd be interested in your perspective.


yes, it is a very interesting proposition

and yes, I'll have to side with the BikePacking technique as to panniers

and yes, I'd stand firm on my personal bias of the movement from 29er MTB to touring
vs
a Touring Bike to a MTB

or in that matter

a 29er period!

why?

I've grown up car less with a hippie dad on schwinn's and Ciocc's
from hoboing around SoCal, Ventura, etc...
to simply going to work, laundry, groceries, etc...
generator lights
baskets, et al...

so here it is...

frame bags are all about the way the weight is distributed
and LIMITING you to not carrying too much

???

ya...the weight is up high

stupid right?
its the worst possible place

right?

typically, yes...

but...
the reality is that when you pick up a MTB with frame bags, you only have to pick it up just a few inches and let the top tube rotate into your hip

???

really...

simply put;
the bike lays into your side

when you stop to get off of your bike to go over a log, or up a set of stairs... whatever
you only have to pick the bike up a few inches
and the bike rotates into your side
the wheels simply splay out to the side

pick up bike with right hand over toptube
left hand on left handle bar
pick up bike
and push left hand side of handlebar
the weight of the bike is in your hip, and the wheels have very little weight to leverage outward.

bcz the weight goes into your hip

try hoisting a loaded touring bike over something that is hip high

the panniers, being low, make it almost impossible to leverage the wheels away from your side
you literally have to pick the whole bike up and go over something

another technique is to simply reach all the way down to the down tube
and grab it with your right hand
while you place the top tube into your arm pit
pick up bike
place nose of saddle ontop of your right shoulder
hold bike with 1 hand

yes...

1 hand

stand up right
and walk

???

really... its the craziest thing

the backpack issue

yes, I'll concede to that much
and yes
more storage is...
or is not a solution

typically on a paved ride, from town to town, I'm not too hot on a back pack

but...

offerings from WingNut Design (http://www.wingnutgear.com/press.cfm?id=16), Ergon, etc...
quiet honestly is a viable solution
case in point, take for instance how many riders were using hydration packs during the Tour Divide

obviously you'd try to limit the weight you put in your pack, as that weight transfers directly to your perineum

packs are kind of cool
there are things that I often times like to have on me, and in immediate grasp
nutritionals, electronics... cell phone? <--- i.e. Portland to Ventura (i know it sucks, and I do dislike having my cell phone on tour, but often times, while on a Civil Tour, I end up taking calls. Simply put, sometimes I have to have those phone calls) its a major reason why I choose paved tours, vs something like the TDR.

TDR... if you have biz that you have to tend to, its going to be very limited while en route. at least, on a paved tour, you can make those absolutely necessary calls, while en route. hands free

while I've never broken a rack
or wrecked a pannier

on the TDR a buddy's rack did break off and go tumbling down the fire road at about 30mph...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0YrbkCNJ4 (at the 5 min mark)

racks and panniers never have a 100% solid connection
neither do frame bags.

panniers will have a small gap at the interface with the rack... in that gap, the panniers will "slap" back and forth a million little times
on pavement, its usually not a big deal, as the smoothness of pave reduces the slapping

as soon as you hit a fire road, its going to be smacking around over and over and over
is that Morse Code coming from the panniers and racks? tick, tick, tick, tick...
if it doesnt break, it will be a small miracle

the BikeBacking Technique is soft
the bags are soft
the mountings are typically straps
everything is soft
basically everything conforms to shape(s)
compression
etc...

so the bags squish against things.

for the handlebar bag, typically it will rub against the headtube
so every time you move the steertube
the handlebar bag will rub, thats a hot spot
the straps on the bike's frame, mud and grit collect... likely will rub the paint off of your bike. maybe apply electrical tape to those spots

I'm not sure what else to parallel
racks and panniers are like external frame packs of the 70's + boots and primus stoves?
frame bags are like... bags without frames, and keens?

on the pavement, a 29er shod in any kind of tyre in the "roadie"/700c realm is really fast.

last year I rode Portland to Ventura on a set of Schwalbe Marathon Cross in 37c
plus along the way, when I got to Arcata, I did the 12hrs of Humboldt and place 3rd with 12 laps, about 92 miles and over 10,000 of climbing
obviously took off the bags

I've done a bunch of rides to Ventura and LA (family)
shod in WTB Vulpines (my favorite tyre), I can make it to Morro Bay (about 125 miles) in 9hrs. not busting my ass in the effort

on a 29er with a 2.1' tyre and 48x11t gearing = about 127 gear inches

compared to a road bike
53x11t 700x23c tyre = 116 gear inches

so the 29er has more top end gear
and being a MTB obviously has much lower gear

plus its obviously a MTB so it can actually withstand the rigors of being in the dirt

on the road at 50mph on a descent, like Devil's Slide on HWY 1, or coming down off of Liggett Pass
the 29er with a 203mm front disc brake...
and frame bags
not panniers

this set up is actually really fast
light enough to bunny hop

???

ya... bunny hop things like uneven pavement
cracks, etc...

brakes big enough to simply put the binders on, and trail brake
yup... like a motorcycle

I use X.O gripshift with Avid BB7's
this allows the rider to brake and shift at the same time

so you can go down something really steep on the brakes, and shift downshift when you get to the bottom and have to go up
i.e. gully, stream crossing, draw, etc...

frame bags...
AMTRAK
everything fits inside the Amtrak Bike Box
yes the Amtrak Bike Box is huge
frame bags... no racks to deal with.

simply put racks and panniers are more hardware
hardware is a liability
1" wide nylon strap is very strong

its just a different technique
everything is strapped down

vs

everything is held up
i.e. metal rods for rack tubing

my brother works at PowerPlant Choppers in LA
one of his favorite things to talk about is "Push and Pull"
everything is push or pull
at any given moment a lever is either push or pull

push or pull

racks are push
frame bags are pull

racks hold things up
frame bags pull things in

nylon strap
vs
metal rods

holding things up + mounting hardware = slap = snap
pulling things in = no slap = no snap

metal vs nylon
heavy vs light

big vs small
complex vs simple

racks = hard angles
bags = soft rounds

crashing with racks is more apt to bend/break something
crashing with frame bags, is usually not an issue

Do any of you who use packs and not panniers use wildland fire fighting packs?
I know a lot of K9 Search dog handlers like packs like these instead of those that sit higher on the back.
More weight on hips, less on shoulders - more stable and very comfortable.

http://www.truenorthgear.com/product_listing.php?path=0_1

Do any of you who use packs and not panniers use wildland fire fighting packs?
I know a lot of K9 Search dog handlers like packs like these instead of those that sit higher on the back.
More weight on hips, less on shoulders - more stable and very comfortable.

http://www.truenorthgear.com/product_listing.php?path=0_1

I use an Enduro made by WingNut Design
http://www.wingnutgear.com/press.cfm?id=16
I've also been using a Platypus gravity filter

but I'm very much inclined to change to a Sawyer filter
http://www.sawyerproducts.com/images/SP161p-hr.GIF

another decent little filter is Clear2Go
http://www.clear2o.com/

with Clear2Go, there is almost no reason to never have a water filter with you

water filters.... a game changer... not doubt

a piece on my buddy Jeff Boatman of Carousel Designs
http://mysierramountaintimes.com/?p=3276

Just as a matter of interest, why? My racks weigh hardly anything, and certainly don't compromise handling, or portability, etc. I can see how you might find panniers a bind, but I've never found that they actually impede my progress. Yes, you can't easily lift a bike loaded with 40lbs of gear, but that is a function of weight rather than the conformation of the bags. And I hate riding with a backpack...

Just sayin'. I'd be interested in your perspective.



Well, my last panniers were Arkles. The panniers were great, I should say its the racks that are annoying. For some reason I have been using the term interchangeably.

On paper it seems a lot simpler to have frame bags and less weight for offroading.

I would think panniers offroad on trails trying to haul your bike up hills would be a bit of a pain in the rear compared to a lighter bike frame setup.

On paper it seems a lot simpler to have frame bags and less weight for offroading.

I would think panniers offroad on trails trying to haul your bike up hills would be a bit of a pain in the rear compared to a lighter bike frame setup.

The problem is carrying lots of unsecured weight, not a 1lb rack. A rack can provide an easy mount for 12lbs of well secured bags OR panniers carrying a lot more. If you're going the ultralight route you don't need panniers but it's not the rack and panniers putting on the weight, it's the stuff in them.

As I look back at the thread which is interesting to me because I used to do touring on "civilized roads" (though maybe the animals in the woods are really much more civilized) but really liked the offroad stuff and am planning on buying a frist mtn bike soon...........anyway.........it sounds like the OP is not talking about too many situatoin where the loaded bike would have to be carried.

I do recall some times when we had to carry our loaded touring bikes short distances and they went over our shoulders with the hand grabbing the downtube but not sure the mtn bike type of frame could "fit" there. I carried a toe clip strap to keep the front wheel from turning under some parking/carrying situations

The question i have is, why is this not an issue with MTB's loaded with panniers since most MTBs are not designed for loads like that? That's why I was going for a touring specific bike and making it more mountain bike like.

I thought about that and the only thing I can think (Because I crossed Oregon on the "transamerica trail" which seems to be the same route as it was 30 years ago) ........is that there were some very long very fast descents. I am not sure I would be going down a mountain grade at 50 plus mph anymore anyway.

I had the shimmy problem with my old road bike and the knees grasping the top tube worked in my case. All we had available were rim brakes back then and the issue was overheating and blowing the tires so you sucked it in flew. I think everyone on that route in the old 70s bikes who also had front panniers was dealing with similar issues.

I gather disc brakes may be better for this but that you still can't use them as a drag brake like you could a drum brake. No disc brake experience but I would put that into consideration. I think I would want them anyway.

Actually i was indeed eying the pug up, I have wanted one of those since I first saw them. My only concern is that it would be rather complicated to get built and theres zero tire choice with the large marge (to me the point of the pugsley is to use those rims). What is the deal with the special dishing required? is that for any pugsly frame or is it just if you use disk brakes.

Getting a Pugsley built is easy any LBS can order the parts and build one for you.

You can use Endomorphs, Larry's [both Surly 4" tires] as well as a number of other tires [Big Apples, Marathon XRs, Extremes] on Large Marge rims. I started with Endos and have a set of Larry's to put on this winter. The tire selection issue really isn't one...quite a few good choices.

You need offset wheels to match the chainline of the Pugsley. Not a big deal...your LBS will handle that when they build your hoops.

Surly Pugsley.

Our regular poster Vik has one and gone from BC to Mexico - all offroad on 4" wide Endos! ;)

And hey, Surly now sells complete builds...

The Surly Forum
http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111

Trekking bike, trekking Bars.. IG hub drivetrain Magura Hydrostop brakes
http://www.cyclofiend.com/working/2008/wb092-robertclark1008.html