Utility Cycling - How am I not articulating my goals correctly at my LBS?

Hi haulers/utility folks,

For reference: I've been a car free bike commuter for 25 years, and I've been exclusively riding folding bikes for about eight years. I'm not a gear guy, for the most part I ride whatever hand-me-downs come my way.

I want to get set up for all-weather urban utility cycling with a total load of 1) a musical instrument amplifier weighing 20lbs and approximately 20" cubed in size, and 2) another 10lbs strapped to my back.

There's no way I can carry that load on either of my folding bikes as much as I wish I could. I'm 190lbs myself already, and the folders are just not going to handle it--the weight distribution is so far back that they do wheelies with a load half that size, and I get heel strike against any loads wider than the rear rack itself because the pedals are so close to the rack.

So I have started shopping for a bike that will work. The following is the conversation I have had at two LBS and it drove me nuts both times:

Me: Hi, I'm looking for a bike (I describe requirements for what I want to carry as above). I don't want a trailer or an xtracycle, because I have three flights of stairs to haul up and I also need to be able to get on the ferry/transit with the bike. What do you have? (Hey! Look at the money in my hand!)

LBS: Yeah, that's gonna be hard, you really should think about a trailer.

Me: Well, I can't do that. Can you recommend a bike that I can work with? Do you have any ideas for the best way to do this? What about a front rack for the amp?

LBS: Yeah, that's gonna be hard, you really should think about a trailer.

And around it goes. ARRRGH!!!

For a total weight of 220 lbs it doesn't seem like that big a deal. It seems like almost ANY bike should do. Don't people tour with that weight all the time? Am I not using the right words to get help? Every time I go to a shop it's time out of a busy day, waiting around forever for some service, and then not getting listened to. This is why I hate going into bike shops and end up going to the internet for help... (Sorry for ranting, I'm just puzzled.)

Your advice welcome with any of the following...

1) What are the best words to use for my request, since maybe I'm not asking correctly? I must be going about this wrong...

2) Your favorite shop in the Bay Area that might actually want to outfit a bike for my needs?

3) A particular rack, set up, or bike that you would suggest off hand? I'd prefer used since I only have $600-700 or so budgeted.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Just hunt for a shop with longtail cargo bikes like the Big Dummy or Yuba Mundo. When you find one, take a test ride. Then, based on your priorities and budget, pick one. Good luck.

What about a Dahon with a front rack?
http://www.safetycycle.com/tourfrontrack.html

It sounds like you do not need really heavy duty hauling and don't want a long tail

What would work, and take a load off of your back would be a bike of your choice, with a solid rack and panniers/folding baskets. 20 lb amp, can easily be loaded and secured to the top of the rack. alternately as that would be a little high up center of gravity wise, you could rig up a hooks to the rack and it could go on the side, with the panier on the other side

Bike of your choice: only requirement is eyelets for mounting rack and fenders, this then leaves you to look for a used bike (like late 80's early 90's japanese bike) or new like a surly long haul trucker or a Pacer or cross check (commuter forum has lots of bike recommendations) or some of the IGH types

where in the bay area? assuming you mean San Francisco bay...... I like Willow Glen bikes in San Jose.....give them a call, not the cheapest but good service and creative. (pm me if want...I live close)

other shops....
Shaw's Lightweight bicycles in santa clara
bicycle outfitter in los altos.

I'm not familar with city or penisula shops






so simply...find a good commuter you like and get a rack.....

If you see anybody on a cargo bike or anything close to want you want ask them what LBS they use. IMO a lot of bike shops have narrow vision. There are road bikes for go fast, mountain bikes for off road, and hybrid/comfort for cruising around town, and not much else.

Porteur

maybe this rack would work: http://cetmacargo.com/10%20CETMA%20cargo%20racks%20index.htm

i found this:
http://racknroll.blogspot.com/

I'm not sure what folding bike you have, but it would seem that you could have a custom Porteur rack built to carry your amp.

this guy may be able to help
http://the-tcb-racks.blogspot.com/2009/01/tcb-30.html

found this too: http://blogs.phred.org/blogs/alex_wetmore/archive/2009/04/17/seasons-speeding-tikit-porteur.aspx

Thanks all.




Bike of your choice: only requirement is eyelets for mounting rack and fenders, this then leaves you to look for a used bike (like late 80's early 90's japanese bike) or new like a surly long haul trucker or a Pacer or cross check (commuter forum has lots of bike recommendations) or some of the IGH types

so simply...find a good commuter you like and get a rack.....

This is exactly what I needed, thanks. It just drives me crazy that I can't get that kind of help at a shop. Basically, I need to not tell them what I want it for, and then do it myself :lol:

& thanks for the bike shop recommends. I am in the SF Bay (in Oakland)--no shortage of shops here, just a shortage of time and I don't want to keep feeling like I'm getting the runaround when all I want is to get a bike that will work.

bfree, I went down that road for awhile. There are touring/pannier racks for Dahon fronts, but no platform racks (that I could find) that both are sturdy and will fit a Dahon well. Considering some of the roads I'm on almost eat a 20" wheel, I had reservations about putting an amp there anyway...

Edit: Thanks AsanaCycles, I will check those out. I wonder if I'll crush my foldy if I tried a custom rack-I love my folding bikes but I'm not confident in getting them loaded up over capacity riding in the city at night. I'm leaning toward erring on the side of sturdy for this usage.

Any other input is welcome, this is really helping me get my act together. Thanks all.

foldster good luck...also check out the Norcal local forum...lot of help there also as noted the commting forum.

and you might pm bigbossman, he is a local forum guy who sometimes flips bikes.....you could ask what he has arround.

I carried loads like that with a basic good rear rack and some Wald folding baskets. Confirm that the size works beforehand, but 30 lbs in cargo weight is more than within most bikes' abilities.

The Cannondale Hooligan has caught my eye recently; that 20" wheel thing is great for dealing with small spaces. I think it has an eyelet for a rack in back, tho of course you should confirm before buying.

I carry a 40 lb kid on a rack/kiddie seat and my messenger bag 7 miles with a good hill and some moderate urban traffic, with a messenger bag on my back. All on my Dahon Espresso folder. A 26" folder with racks might be your solution. I was just saying in another thread that a folding utility bike could be an ideal for many people who live in cities and have storage and public transport as part of their needs.

The problem here is the dimensions rather than the weight of the load. This is a good example of why delivery services have surcharges for oversized packages based on physical dimensions as well as weight. At 20" it's too wide to fit on the bed of my trailer. I doubt it will be stable on a typical rear rack with a platform of at about twelve by five inches. I think a wider and longer platform would need to be bolted onto your rack.

There is also a good chance that the twenty inch cube on a rear rack is going to interfere with your ability to carry anything on your back.

What kind of amp?
ps...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hD3UFy26oWc/Ss0ejIjPKyI/AAAAAAAAApE/WIKwHEoKmFk/s400/MADSEN-240x400-musician.gif

also, you can fit a LOT more than 20"x20" on a trailer. Here's mine:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb84/westhavenmusician/Bike/DSC04673.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb84/westhavenmusician/Bike/2010_5_1126.jpg

If I didn't play double bass, I would bike to some of my gigs.

The problem here is the dimensions rather than the weight of the load. This is a good example of why delivery services have surcharges for oversized packages based on physical dimensions as well as weight. At 20" it's too wide to fit on the bed of my trailer. I doubt it will be stable on a typical rear rack with a platform of at about twelve by five inches. I think a wider and longer platform would need to be bolted onto your rack.

There is also a good chance that the twenty inch cube on a rear rack is going to interfere with your ability to carry anything on your back.

Exactly. The bicycle shops are suggesting a trailer because what you're trying to carry is going to be unwieldy on any kind of normal bike rack. It's not that they don't understand what you want. It's that they believe (with some justification) that what you want isn't reasonable.

You can strap something like that on top of a normal rack, with some difficulty, but it will screw with your balance and make getting on and off your bike difficult if you typically swing your leg over the seat.

You could construct (or possibly buy) a lower platform than hangs off the side of a regular rack, and then strap the amp to that. It would be more stable and not interfere with mounting the bike, but could introduce heel strike issues and will impact the balance of the bike. The balance impact should be more predictable than with it mounted on top of the rack, though.

I don't think a front rack is a good idea, at least if it turns with the wheel/handlebars. 20lbs will have a significant impact on your steering.

Other than that you've got trailers (some of which are reasonably cheap), cargo bikes, and cargo bike conversions. Full-blown cargo bikes seem like overkill for you.

...also, you can fit a LOT more than 20"x20" on a trailer. Here's mine:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb84/westhavenmusician/Bike/DSC04673.jpg

If I didn't play double bass, I would bike to some of my gigs.

Well, 20x20x20 is a little different. I don't think the third dimension of your box is 20 inches.

I think I could fit a double bass on my trailer. Would it be too top heavy stood up in your trailer or too fragile?

Exactly. The bicycle shops are suggesting a trailer because what you're trying to carry is going to be unwieldy on any kind of normal bike rack. It's not that they don't understand what you want. It's that they believe (with some justification) that what you want isn't reasonable.

You can strap something like that on top of a normal rack, with some difficulty, but it will screw with your balance and make getting on and off your bike difficult if you typically swing your leg over the seat.

You could construct (or possibly buy) a lower platform than hangs off the side of a regular rack, and then strap the amp to that. It would be more stable and not interfere with mounting the bike, but could introduce heel strike issues and will impact the balance of the bike. The balance impact should be more predictable than with it mounted on top of the rack, though.

I don't think a front rack is a good idea, at least if it turns with the wheel/handlebars. 20lbs will have a significant impact on your steering.

Other than that you've got trailers (some of which are reasonably cheap), cargo bikes, and cargo bike conversions. Full-blown cargo bikes seem like overkill for you.

Thanks for agreeing with my post but "Exactly!" might be the wrong word because you are disagreeing with some of my points. I guess you are right that it could be strapped to a normal rear rack, but I believe the center of mass would be too close to the rear edge and too close to the sides as well to insure it will stay balanced there. I've had large boxes fall off my rack because they were too wide. On the other hand I believe a wider, longer platform bolted onto the top of the rack would get the job done, perhaps as well or better than one on the side of the rack. Because the load is not heavy maybe either would be OK.

Well, 20x20x20 is a little different. I don't think the third dimension of your box is 20 inches.

I think I could fit a double bass on my trailer. Would it be too top heavy stood up in your trailer or too fragile?

21 inches-- I just checked. The white part on the box is still the front-- the photo fools the eye a little to make it look thinner than it was. That was a barrel tumbler composter. Huge box. Plus 6 steel fence posts and some other stuff. ;) There are 22 inches of width in that trailer--- just the basic instep brand. $10 @ goodwill. :)

Bass is too top heavy and fragile. I also double on electric, so that's amp/cabinet/electric bass/double bass.

Your trailer is a little wider than mine and cost a lot less but can you carry 50"x40"? :D
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr147/Rod_Smith/bike/IMG_3347_2.jpg

OP has ruled out a trailer because he needs to carry everything up and down three flights of stairs. I think a modified rear rack can do the job, but a trailer might be a reasonable choice. Depending on how far he has to ride, the ability to get everything upstairs in one trip might trump the advantages of a trailer.

Just hunt for a shop with longtail cargo bikes like the Big Dummy or Yuba Mundo. When you find one, take a test ride. Then, based on your priorities and budget, pick one. Good luck.

This sounds like the best option, but I'm not sure I'd want to haul a longtail up three flights.

the instep trailers fold flat-- at least my old one does--the wheels are even quick release and the arm folds under the whole thing. Takes about 60 seconds, if that. :)

20" by 20"? That's different. Yeah, a trailer is really the way to go. I'd definitely get something like the instep. :)

Your advice welcome with any of the following...

1) What are the best words to use for my request, since maybe I'm not asking correctly? I must be going about this wrong...

2) Your favorite shop in the Bay Area that might actually want to outfit a bike for my needs?

3) A particular rack, set up, or bike that you would suggest off hand? I'd prefer used since I only have $600-700 or so budgeted.

Thanks for your thoughts!

especially in light of #3
I'd opt for a folding trailer, perhaps there is a place downstairs where you could cable lock it.
plus a trailer will work with other bikes.

if you are using your folding bike with cargo on public transit, it may be an issue.
then I'd probably opt for a Porteur rack
the 7 rail rack: http://cetmacargo.com/10%20CETMA%20cargo%20racks%20index.htm
is 17" x 11"
its still not 20x20 inches

can you post a pic of your bike?

Thanks for the continued feedback!

Yet again, I appreciate the suggestions for a trailer, but no trailer. I understand a trailer is preferred and ideal. I understand some trailers can fold. I understand why the guys at the shop would push me toward a trailer. But I can't use a trailer! That's why I'm here for your advice, even if the advice turns out to be that it can't be done. To reiterate, no trailer and no xtracycle because A) bike will need to be able to go on ferry/BART (no trailers, period) and B) bike needs to be carried up several flights of stairs, and then down a couple narrow flights into the basement of my apartment building. Leaving anything on the sidewalk in my neighborhood for a "second trip" is not going to work--not for five seconds. Even if my load is quite heavy, I need to be able to jump off and carry it up two flights before my load is in a secure area.

@Standalone, nice to hear from another bass player. :thumb: I've wanted to be bike-bass portable for years, and these newer class D amps finally make it possible (I hope). I have a Genz Benz Shuttle, works great and is really loud for its size. The head fits in my gig bag, and slides into a rack on top of the cab (which is the 20" cube). Combined with a Dano on my back, it's a light load compared to my old Mesa Boogie 2x15 + P bass set up of a couple hundred pounds total...

And I appreciate the suggestions for a front rack on my folder and am still considering it... those CETMA porteurs look sweeeet :love:. The folder it would most likely go on is a Dahon Speed P8. But I really do have reservations about loading up the tiny bike that much, as much as I love my folders.

Porteur style front racks are really intriguing me as a possible solution here, especially since I'll already have a load on my back. They seem to be widely disliked on the forums but they do have some proponents (and certainly the CETMA guy makes a strong case for them). I think my first step is going to be to borrow a bike with a loaded front rack and see how it would handle for me.

As with many things in life, I'm starting to realize that the common wisdom maybe just be repeated (and not necessarily first hand) information, front racks included. We'll see...

how about this with front panniers to help stabilize the steering with the amp on the rear rack?

http://www.globebikes.com/us/en/globe/GlobeBike.jsp?pid=10HAUL1

Porteur

maybe this rack would work: http://cetmacargo.com/10%20CETMA%20cargo%20racks%20index.htm

i found this:
http://racknroll.blogspot.com/

I'm not sure what folding bike you have, but it would seem that you could have a custom Porteur rack built to carry your amp.

this guy may be able to help
http://the-tcb-racks.blogspot.com/2009/01/tcb-30.html

found this too: http://blogs.phred.org/blogs/alex_wetmore/archive/2009/04/17/seasons-speeding-tikit-porteur.aspx

A PR rack sounds ideal for your needs, but keep in mind you can't slap a heavy front load on a bike not designed for it and have great handling. I've tried and the results are not pretty. You can get bikes designed to carry heavy front loads...bikes like the Kogswell PR...there are also some bikes that have compatible front end geometries even though not intentionally designed for front loads.

Definitely worth checking into before you spend a of $$$ on a custom/semi-custom front rack.

You can certainly carry the load you need to on any touring bike [say a Surly LHT] with some mods to a standard rear rack...I'd hang the amp off the side of the rack to keep the weight low....it wouldn't be hard to fabricate some DIY rack mods to make this happen. The advantage with this approach is touring bikes meant to carry rear only loads or front and rear loads are a dime a dozen so they are cheaper to buy new and lots of used bikes available...compared to a PR type bike designed to carry a front only load.

PM bike forum member "ricardo kuhn" He lives in SF, and a bicycle/motorcycle wizard. If you can get him interested, he for sure can design and fabricate whatever you need, and it won't even look ghetto. He carries a tandem ATB AND his GF on a motorcycle for example. Search his posts for other examples. Don't expect him to work for free, but I promise whatever he charges will be money well spent. Tell him Kevbo says hi.

When I think of the loads of 12 beers + 1.5 L of wine I grab on the way home on Friday for the week's libations for my wife and me, I think I could put a shuttle in a backpack just about as easily...

I do hear you on the no trailer thing-- I should post a photo of what my trailer looks like folded. A bag over it, and you'd probably be ok on any bus. However, that plus an amp and gig gear plus getting your bike on the front rack of the bus might be too much.

I love GB stuff. I play my old school GK 800RB through a GB Neox 212.


You might consider going with two mini neodymium 10's to hang off of each side of a rack, and play in a stack. The stack would get you more tone, probably more bass, a speaker up higher close to your ear... trade your 115 or 112 in for two 110's, and run them off your shuttle. Sell your cab, stack two of these or something similar.... http://www.bass.se/2009/neo110.htm or..... http://www.flitecabs.com/bass/ two 15 lb 10" cabs would spread the weight around.

I think if you bought some light poplar plywood, drilled out appropriate holes for attachment to your dahon's rack and for sturdy straps for your cab, you'd have a good stable platform for the cab. The Dahon curve I traded in (towards my madsen) had two braze ons on the head tube for a front rack. I think if you put the cab on a back rack, adding a front rack to store your tuner/wires/various gigging gear, you'd balance the weight on the back for handling purposes.

Carry the shuttle on your back though. I think sitting it on a front rack would jar it.

I know you've said no trailers but have you seen the new Burley Travoy? It seems made for urban biking like you mention. It may be possible to haul it upstairs using the wheels since it is similar to a dolly. I have no experience with one but the idea is intriguing.

Standalone, you are cracking me up... one step at a time! It took me 30 years of bass playing to pare down to a rig this small, I'm not going to start building it back up quite yet. The Genz has done just fine for what I need it for so far.

Lots of great ideas here (except for the people who keep telling me to get a trailer or panniers, y'all are just messing with me at this point!).

I am going to stop responding until I can try some things out. Will report back.

just trying to kill two birds with one stone with your $6-700. 's fun shopping w/ your money... :D

The problem is not that you are failing to articulate properly. The problem is the mentality of the shop employees you are dealing with. They are programmed to politely allow you to finish speaking, then to steer you to something which THEY have to sell.

Here is a review of a Kronan which describes riding it with up to 123 lbs (actually, the writers wife) on the rear rack, for a date and shopping, plus more stuff on the optional front rack. I don't own a Kronan, but I admire a tough, rugged bicycle which can withstand such severe duty...I'd never try to carry 123 lbs on the back of any of my bicycles. The price for a 3 speed Kronan is just $600 plus shipping. A single speed is less.

http://www.living-room.org/kronan.html

And here is the U.S. website, with technical details and images

http://kronanusa.com/

ron, thank you--that bike is my fantasy bike. but not at 51 pounds! if they could get it to 35 i'd bite without hesitation!

You might be able to modify it to approach that figure...replace the stainless steel rims, steel crankset, steel stem and steel handlebars with aluminum parts, and perhaps replace the tires with Fat Franks or something similar.
Just the alloy rims and better tires would make a very noticeable difference, the rest could be done a little at a time, as you felt like it.
And remember...an ounce saved on the rims and tires is worth a pound saved elsewhere.
You'd have more invested in it, but perhaps still a lot less than many "Dutch Bikes". And in a world where Kronans are thought to be nearly identical, you'd have one different from ALL the rest : )
Or, you could get a Retrovelo, which already has the lighter weight stuff from the factory...

http://www.retrovelo.de/home.html

or possibly, a Public...

http://publicbikes.com/

you could look at workman http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/cruisers.html

setting one up with alloy rims, front drum, rear 3 spd, fenders, front and rear baskets is aboutr $680.... you can customize your own bike (singld speed, 3 speed, 7 speed, etc) still have but made in USA

another option is to find an older bike and roll you own.... this started out as a '82 niskhiki (bought new) and is now a "japanese 8 spd" the only original parts are the frame and the seat post. it work for me..... I don't carry 20x20 cubes much (would have to practice the swing the leg over the front of the bike) but have carried up to 50 lb bags of pottingn soile (which is pushing it a bit)

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w142/squirtdad/IMG_0248.jpg

I would seriously look at Arkel's mounting system. You can buy the mounting system by itself for a reasonable cost. This can be screwed directly into a cabinet, and be mounted to a sturdy rack. If you can mount the system to your rig, I'm sure that it would be sufficient to hold the amp.

http://www.arkel-od.com/us/all-categories/bicycle-accessories/cam-lock-hook-kit-1.html

ron, thank you--that bike is my fantasy bike. but not at 51 pounds! if they could get it to 35 i'd bite without hesitation!

folderster, check out that Specialized Haul. I wish it was in 26" wheels and the rear wheel had 14g. spokes but it might be the ticket. For heavy/bulky loads it's nice having a quasi-step through design when you can't swing your leg over the back. I just delivered on my 56cm 26" wheeled LHT a load of books in four medium panniers and a square milkcrate of books on the rear rack. Pretty sure that exceeds your total weight package by 25lbs and it was fine. Putting a load on front low riders can go a long way to stabilizing a big bulky item on the rear rack and I'm guessing the extra long chainstays of the Haul should make it even better. It's not a Big Dummy but it's a light bike that "should" be able to carry a load. I haven't had a chance to try one out or get feedback but it looks good on paper.

biking with a 20" cube? Trailer would be ideal, but like you said, no trailer for you.

The best thing I've seen is for you to make up one of these:
http://i35.tinypic.com/1zuq1e.jpg

(its not my picture or idea, I just found it on the internet sometime ago.) It's a custom porteur fork made for a 700c bike frame. The small 20" front wheel keeps the load low and stable.

http://i36.tinypic.com/2m2gmj7.jpg

That is one of the most truly "elegant" solutions I've ever seen.

Then again, here's another custom design - not as fancily constructed, perhaps, but quite functional/similar in design.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?331199-Post-your-utility-bike-thread&p=10930568&viewfull=1#post10930568

biking with a 20" cube? Trailer would be ideal, but like you said, no trailer for you.

The best thing I've seen is for you to make up one of these:
http://i35.tinypic.com/1zuq1e.jpg

(its not my picture or idea, I just found it on the internet sometime ago.) It's a custom porteur fork made for a 700c bike frame. The small 20" front wheel keeps the load low and stable.

http://i36.tinypic.com/2m2gmj7.jpg

Excellent. I think these would sell well if produced cheaply enough. Kind of the reverse of the Xtracycle. Imagine a bike w/both...!

Just yesterday I was thinking about how useful the 20" rear wheel design of my madsen is, and wondering how a 2x20" utility bike design would do. A rougher ride might be one problem it would face. Another would be a market unwilling to see 20" wheels as cool.

EDIT: Hold on... that's not even a 20" wheel, is it...?

check this guy out
he's in Oakland
http://www.cleaverbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/marys-truck-bike.jpg

http://www.cleaverbikes.com/

I was doing some random Googling for Utility bike pictures, and I stumbled on this:
Double (http://http://www.dutch-id.com/transporter.shtml) Dutch bike.
[URL]http://www.dutch-id.com/transporter.shtml

Lorrie
http://www.dutch-id.com/lorri.shtml
I have no idea how much either costs, weighs, or if you can even get one anywhere outside of Europe.