Classic & Vintage - Vintage steel frame identification

I have inherited a really nice very old steel bike frame and which I am currently building back to be a bike again. There is no marking anywhere on the bike except a serial number and 'brev Campagnolo' on the front drop outs.

Would love to know what brand and model my frame is. It seems very high quality, light weight and beautifully welded together.

Serial number is: 001465 BK

Only things I've heard so far are that it's old (!) very expensive (lovely) and maybe from 1950s-60s. Also they think it's a tourer because of the lugs above on the dropouts - ?

Some pictures of the drop outs, forks and welds.
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4828100962 (http://http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4828100962)/>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4828100874/>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4828100366/>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4827491399/>

Help would be really greatly appreciated as I try to make a nice vintage bike out of it.

Seems odd to me for a supposed old valuable frame that the bottom bracket is welded rather than lugged. You'll probably want to post a photo of the head tube and seat cluster, and measurements of the seat tube inside diameter and bottom bracket width.

A picture of where the seat goes in, and the seat post: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4827823537/>

I think it's 25mm in diameter and says this on the seat post but I think it says 25.(something) but the decimal is illegible.

This is the frame in its entirety with some of the parts that I might use.

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/_pitkin/4827831817/>

Fork is the nicest part. I do not think it matches the bike, totally different construction, etc. Rear dropouts do not match front dropouts. Small seat post diameter is indicative of lower grade tubing.

Frame does not appear to be super valuable but is nice.

What is the rear spacing?

Looks like a Trusty-built Lambert frame with a replacement fork.

John probably has the id right, but there were some valuable fillet brazed frames built in the C&V era. This is fillet brazed, not welded.

I think it looks like a lovely frame, and id have no issues riding it.

Viscount?

Yep, probably either Lambert or Viscount, but the deal-killer will be the BB: is the shell threaded or does it use pressed-in cartridge bearings?
the fork crown is the same as my Bob Jackson Merlin, which is definitely a step nicer than the Yamaha replacement forks that Viscount used to deal with the "death fork" issue.
just to be a stickler about it: what we call "fillet brazed" the British call "bronze-welded", sometimes even shortening it to "welded" when comparing to a lugged frame...in that context it's understood that they're not talking about a "welded" frame as we'd know it.

Thanks for all of this useful information! What is C&V?
In response to some of the questions:
- rear spacing: is that the distance between the rear drop outs? If so, that's 5 inches (measured with a wonky ruler).
- the BB: assuming that's the bottom bracket? It had two bearing cartridges in either end and a solid axle (?) through the middle. Couldn't see any threading.

Is it normal for the forks and frame to be different and used together like this? I'm almost sure that these were together in their last riding days together...

C&V: Classic and Vintage (relax, you're soaking in it)
your rear spacing (measured between the inner dropout faces is 120mm (about 4.75") for 5-speed or 126mm (about 5") for 6-speed.
BB= Bottom Bracket (in this case the shell) and your answer confirms that it's a Viscount or a Lambert. Your new problems are that the shell is unthreaded and the axle (spindle) for the crank is unique in that it is un-tapered, designed to work only with the original Lambert/Viscount crank (and a worthless design you don't want).
The fast/dirty solution is to buy a BB unit that requires no threads (or damaged threads) in the BB shell: the good one is from Velo Orange, the cheap one is from YST.

C&V: Classic and Vintage (relax, you're soaking in it)
your rear spacing (measured between the inner dropout faces is 120mm (about 4.75") for 5-speed or 126mm (about 5") for 6-speed.
BB= Bottom Bracket (in this case the shell) and your answer confirms that it's a Viscount or a Lambert. Your new problems are that the shell is unthreaded and the axle (spindle) for the crank is unique in that it is un-tapered, designed to work only with the original Lambert/Viscount crank (and a worthless design you don't want).
The fast/dirty solution is to buy a BB unit that requires no threads (or damaged threads) in the BB shell: the good one is from Velo Orange, the cheap one is from YST.

One concern. Are the bottom bracket shells a standard size for a Lambert/Viscount bottom bracket shell? If the shell is anything like a Merlin pressed in BB shell, I don't think it is a standard size.

i don't know (but some Viscount / Lambert owners can chime in) but I think that the BB shell is very close to the standard 68mm width and 1.37" diameter. I'm guessing that these "aerospace" frames were using standard readily available tubing back in the '70s, and they would have used a standard BB blank...unlike the "real" aerospace titanium frames that had to initially use tubing that was surplus from fighter jet manufacture.

Ok sounds interesting. I have the bottom bracket (took it out so that I could powder coat the frame) so will photo it and put it up to see if it's useful/usable - ?

Are there any considerations on headset and quill that I need to think about? Also, would the bike have used 27 1 1/4 wheels? And would 700c ones be ok?

Really appreciating all of your help here!

Ok sounds interesting. I have the bottom bracket (took it out so that I could powder coat the frame) so will photo it and put it up to see if it's useful/usable - ?

Are there any considerations on headset and quill that I need to think about? Also, would the bike have used 27 1 1/4 wheels? And would 700c ones be ok?

Really appreciating all of your help here!

it would be more useful to measure the BB shell (both ID and width) and use that to determine what replacement would fit.
it might have used 27" wheels , but a lot of Viscounts came with sewups so 700C would be an exact match in that case. You'll have to just try a wheel out for fit and see. The steerer would most likely be a standard one so a standard 1" threaded headset should work as well as standard 1" quill stem.

...just to be a stickler about it: what we call "fillet brazed" the British call "bronze-welded", sometimes even shortening it to "welded" when comparing to a lugged frame...in that context it's understood that they're not talking about a "welded" frame as we'd know it.

That's a good history lesson, but just to be a stickler back, it is good to dispense with inaccurate terminology probably invented by the marketing department. There is nothing "welded" about that frame. It is brazed. All brazed and nothing but brazed.

That's a good history lesson, but just to be a stickler back, it is good to dispense with inaccurate terminology probably invented by the marketing department. There is nothing "welded" about that frame. It is brazed. All brazed and nothing but brazed.

Where is Eisenhower when Monte and Old Blood & Guts get into it?

where is eisenhower when monte and old blood & guts get into it?

lol!

I have measured the frame bits and you seem to be correct in your assumptions - I think:

The internal diameter of the BB is 35mm (external 39/40) and the width is 67mm.

The headset seems to be just over an inch at 30mm but that might be my bad measuring?

I have measured the frame bits and you seem to be correct in your assumptions - I think:

The internal diameter of the BB is 35mm (external 39/40) and the width is 67mm.

The headset seems to be just over an inch at 30mm but that might be my bad measuring?

I got the same bb shell measurements on a fillet brazed viscount. I tried to measure carefully because someone told me that the max shell id for a vo grand cru threadless bb to most likely work well was 34mm. The id is probably smaller inward of the bearing space so maybe it would still work. I think those are really lite and nice frames, worth fixing up if you can figure out the bb.

I got the same bb shell measurements on a fillet brazed viscount. I tried to measure carefully because someone told me that the max shell id for a vo grand cru threadless bb to most likely work well was 34mm. The id is probably smaller inward of the bearing space so maybe it would still work. I think those are really lite and nice frames, worth fixing up if you can figure out the bb.

Great news. I definitely did not measure accurately as I am missing the required tools! Did you fix your frame up? Do you have pictures of yours? I am very much liking the frame and can't wait to get going. The bearings and axle (?) are there and look in good condition, I guess it's just a case of finding some cranks that fit?

unless somebody did you a big favor and replaced the original spindle, the only cranks that will work on the untapered spindle are the original Lamberts (which look like a slightly cruder TA Cyclotourist set). This is why replacing the entire BB unit makes life better. That and a steel fork and these frames make for a decent ride, I have seen many (retrofitted) still on the road.

the only cranks that will work on the untapered spindle are the original Lamberts (which look like a slightly cruder TA Cyclotourist set).

Ah ok, is this a bad idea then? Or just something difficult to get hold of?


This is why replacing the entire BB unit makes life better. That and a steel fork and these frames make for a decent ride, I have seen many (retrofitted) still on the road.

And these are these BB units are those Velo Orange ones that people have mentioned? The steel forks I hear are good from the above so that's done I guess - any idea who made these?! Great news on the rest.

I'll go BB shopping...

Ah ok, is this a bad idea then? Or just something difficult to get hold of?
It's bad because untapered spindles (and the soft alloy Lambert cranks that fit them) are not a good design: the taper is important to get a good tight fit between these materials, that's why 99.9% of all square-taper cranks use a taper. The Brits who made Lamberts/Viscounts were not bicycle engineers and they made some poor design choices in an effort to be innovative and cut corners. The Lambert cranks are both difficult to find and best left alone, if you did find them they'd only be worth scavenging the rings off to put on a TA (tapered) crankset.


And these are these BB units are those Velo Orange ones that people have mentioned? The steel forks I hear are good from the above so that's done I guess - any idea who made these?! Great news on the rest.

I'll go BB shopping...
Some folks have been lucky in finding just a spindle they could use with the OEM pressed-in bearings, but I don't know what brand spindle (or where/if they still sell them) or how much extra machining was required to make that work... seems like the VO unit is the best unit yet for this application, good quality and at a decent price, too, Before you buy you must settle on what crankset you'll use it with, so you buy the correct spindle length (your taper choice is limited since VO only makes it in ISO, but plenty of cranksets out there to pick from.)

That isn't the Viscount crankset. Are there threads inside the bottom bracket of the frame (where the pedal crank passes through - no intention of offending with this clarification - just hoping to prevent time lost for a potential next question).

This changes the topic a bit but who stripped the paint and how long has the frame been left bare? I see evidence of corrosion covering almost the entire frame. I'm wondering how it was cared for, what was used to inhibit the rust, etc.

That isn't the Viscount crankset. Are there threads inside the bottom bracket of the frame (where the pedal crank passes through - no intention of offending with this clarification - just hoping to prevent time lost for a potential next question).

I hope you're right, But the pic of the crankset is one of "parts he hopes to use" and the pic of the BB (partial and not 100% clear) sure looks to have pressed-in cartridge bearings...:(

I owned a Viscount back before the death fork recall and I might suggest there is another alternative to searching out pressed in cartridge bearings and putting up with the non-taper BB spindle.
Take the frame to a good shop or framebuilder. Have the BB taped to Italian threading, now go buy an Italian thread BB and new crankset.
Hell you could even get some TA cranks that use the same pattern as the Lambert cranks and use the original chainrings.

Marty

I hope you're right, But the pic of the crankset is one of "parts he hopes to use" and the pic of the BB (partial and not 100% clear) sure looks to have pressed-in cartridge bearings...:(

Indeed correct. I just had that picture of all of the bits that I have. They are actually all Shimano parts that I managed to scavenge from a ruined old Viscount (complete coincidence and of no link!). Hoping to use but everything is replaceable if needed!

This changes the topic a bit but who stripped the paint and how long has the frame been left bare? I see evidence of corrosion covering almost the entire frame. I'm wondering how it was cared for, what was used to inhibit the rust, etc.

I stripped the paint a week ago. It was preserved in a think coat of Hammerite by the previous previous owner and the previous owner does not know how long ago that was. I am planning on painting (powder coating) it this week. Do you think there is a problem with this?

Thank you all for your BB advice. I must say that I do not have any experience at all of BBs, fitting them or indeed knowing much about them at all! I will investigate further, probably starting at a shop that can poke at it...

Options appear to be (not that I fully understand all of them): 1) buy a Velo Orange to fit some pre-selected cranks, 2) find some old Lambert (style) cranks and use the BB set that I have, 3) machine the current axle to be tapered or 4) tape it to Italian threading and buy a new Italian BB and crankset?

Anyone know of a good vintage-knowing shop in Bristol, UK? There are lots of bike shops just where to start...

You're in luck that you're in the UK where I'd guess there's a much better chance of finding bike mechanics who still do frame work. I'm not in Bristol or the UK, but have heard many good things about Argos (don't know if they are the best choice for this job, but that's where I'd start). Around here, finding any shop with both the Italian tap and the skill to use it is a very long shot...I'd strongly recommend using the VO unit IF you can ascertain that it will fit within your BB shell and one of their units mates up with a crank you want to use. Even with shipping to UK I'm sure it's cheaper than re-threading to Italian.

I did not mean to alarm you. I just see some corrosion and was wondering how long it took to get to that state, what was on the frame to protect it during that period. I'm basically just curious about the corrosion process.

The bike lacks the original fork because thirty of them failed, leading to eight injuries, which led Yamaha to recall them. They had bought Viscount. There may have been some more failures since then. The fork was made from cast aluminum and would break too easily if one ran into something.

the powder coat guy I send things to would sandblast that frame and it would be fine. Powder doesn't rely on adhesion as much as paint does, but you still want the steel to be rust-free.

Hmm, I always felt powder was more adherent than most spray-on paints. Still, media blast it to remove the rust coating that is surely covering the entire surface.

Great news. I definitely did not measure accurately as I am missing the required tools! Did you fix your frame up? Do you have pictures of yours? I am very much liking the frame and can't wait to get going. The bearings and axle (?) are there and look in good condition, I guess it's just a case of finding some cranks that fit?

When my bb spindle broke I put the viscount cranks on another bike and that seemed to work fine. Never tried putting a different crank on the viscount spindle, but that might be worth a try if it seems in good condition. I liked the bike a lot, and after stripping it realized it was pretty lite too so hung on to the frame but don't know what to do about the bb. Tapping to italian sounds best, the grand cru might work but sounds a little uncertain, and there are probably some frame tubes to grind out of the bb shell too. Hope you figure something out.