Classic & Vintage - Should I keep my vintage shimano 600 BB, or should replace it with a modern BB?

I have an 80's Nishiki with all 600 components (everything) and my BB is the only thing I haven't overhauled. I was wondering if I would be better off just cleaning out the BB, and replacing the bearings (assuming the races are fine) if that would be preferable to the $20 square taper sealed bottom bracket ? I know more expensive ones are available, but I cannot find any shimano ones that are.

I like the idea of keeping all the original components, but since I have no BB tools, I don't want to screw around with it, and just want to do what is best for it and call it a day.

You need tools to put in a modern cartridge bb as well as an old style bb. I would definitely inspect it before worrying too much about it, though, as BBs are under very high load and might be bad.

I have an 80's Nishiki with all 600 components (everything) and my BB is the only thing I haven't overhauled. I was wondering if I would be better off just cleaning out the BB, and replacing the bearings (assuming the races are fine) if that would be preferable to the $20 square taper sealed bottom bracket ? I know more expensive ones are available, but I cannot find any shimano ones that are.

I like the idea of keeping all the original components, but since I have no BB tools, I don't want to screw around with it, and just want to do what is best for it and call it a day.

If you plan on acquiring more bikes or simply maintaining your own yourself then a lockring tool and spanner are essentials. Once you have them cup and cone BB service isn't much of an issue. If you'd rather fire and forget, do the sealed cartridge.

If you get a lockring tool get the Hozan: http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/333222338999/283/Hozan-Lockring-Tool-Headset.html

I have access to a local bike co-op where I can, and will do the inspection. I would love to buy the tools since they are the only things I have left to finish my garage bike shop (but money is a little tight right now) The reason I am asking this is that I have to pay for stand time, and if I would be better off with a modern BB, I might as well buy one now.

I've been looking on Ebay, and found around 8 different brands that make square taper BB, and was wondering what experience people have had with them (I have plenty of friends with good bikes with bad BB that will need to be replaced).

phil wood or chris king and call it a day.

OK, since you can use the bike coop, take apart the BB and inspect it. If it's in good shape, regrease it and button it back up. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

The old Shimano bottom brackets tended to be very well made while I have less love for their cartridge units as they are not nearly as smooth and have much less bearing support.

If the bb is serviceable and in nice shape it will give you 10's of thousands of smooth running km with regualar service which takes all of 15 - 20 minutes once you have the tools.

Keep the 600 BB. Take it apart, inspect the races and balls for pitting/wear, clean it, then grease it and seal it back up. If your feeling fun you can buy new balls. If there is pitting or excessive wear, you should replace it than. If it was me though, I would try to find another 600 BB on Ebay :-)

I replaced my older Shimano BB on my commute bike with a hard-to-find UN72 about 4 years ago. I have since put over 15K miles, still going strong. I use it year round, including one winter in Minnesota salt and snow. In the meantime, I destroyed a Dura-Ace rear hub cone, even though I try to keep on top of routine maintenance. True, it doesn't feel as smooth, but doesn't require any attention either.

If it isn't worn, repack and replace.

There exists no logical excuse - and I mean no logical excuse - for replacing an undamaged cup-and-spindle BB with a cartridge. Not unless you want to provide me with more lightly-used, inexpensive used parts than I have already, anyway.

-Kurt

cup and ball BB's require more maintenance should they be subjected to many miles of wet use. Sealed cartridge BB's don't. If this is a daily commuter, you might swap over. BUT....you mentioned you're shy of BB tools. And know many with neglected BB's in need of overhauls. I think you will cover your BB tool costs easily if you offer to do their BB's for a small fee. They provide the parts, whether bearing balls, or a cartridge BB.

If you can't wait to service your own bike, then buy a bag of balls, get co-op bench time, pull and inspect the BB cups. If good, just toss the cages and fit extra balls and be done with it.

I've had it with rusted out BBs stuck in the frame, bearings ruined from years of rust/crap dropping down the various tubes at the BB junction. If it's a bike I'm going to own, I buy a sealed cartridge Shimano UN-54 for ~$22. Life is short, I figure I deserve a quality BB for life on my bikes.


...and I mean no logical excuse - for replacing an undamaged cup-and-spindle BB with a cartridge. Not unless you want to provide me with more lightly-used, inexpensive used parts than I have already, anyway.

Says the guy that lives in sunny FL. Our winters are pretty tough on bikes, the little holes in the stays provide a nice path for bearing wrecking crap...I've got some old DA BBs, PM me if you want to buy 'em.

And that, I suppose, is why you're Mr IGH.

It's a good bonding experience to repack your own bottom bracket, plus you know who to blame when it goes south ;)

And you can also find so many interesting things once you have it open!

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?646644-organic-matter-inside-frame&p=10840036&viewfull=1#post10840036

Says the guy that lives in sunny FL. Our winters are pretty tough on bikes, the little holes in the stays provide a nice path for bearing wrecking crap...I've got some old DA BBs, PM me if you want to buy 'em.

You missed the most important adjective of my statement:


...for replacing an undamaged cup-and-spindle BB with a cartridge.

Last I heard, a UN-74 isn't invincible to the elements either. I haven't seen one yet that doesn't fit hellishly tight on the drive side either.

-Kurt

+5 if the BB is good, just repack it using tools at the co-op.

I can't understand why anyone would repack a bottom bracket and not replace the bearing balls. You might as well do it right as long as you have it apart and bearing balls are cheap.

Grand Bois, I love you more than ever. You call them bearing balls, properly, rather than calling them ball bearings.

Grand Bois, I love you more than ever. You call them bearing balls, properly, rather than calling them ball bearings.

Would you then call them "bearing needles" as well?

Grand Bois, I love you more than ever. You call them bearing balls, properly, rather than calling them ball bearings.

That's because the old stuff got balls. Cartridge BB's are sissy.

:innocent:

-Kurt

First money is tight, and then you want to replace a bottom bracket that probably just needs 50 cents worth of ball bearings and grease?

I would never consider reusing 25 year old ball bearings.

I think the extra $2.20 or so would be worth it.

Not being able to afford the ceramic or other high-end stuff, I still think a properly cleaned and packed ball-bearing bottom bracket is as smooth as you can get. Same with hubs. The cartridge stuff I can afford is so much easier, but no warm-fuzzy feeling you spin the cranks...

Hey. Gotta think about that. Cylinders, maybe?

Would you then call them "bearing needles" as well?Rollers, actually. If the individual rollers are "needle bearings" then what's the whole thing called?

The fixed cup sometimes has flats for a wrench. Get that side off and inspect the spindle to see if it's pitted before you waste too much time worrying about it. You can clean the grease and check the other side with a flashlight. Alternately, you can drive off the lockring with a cold chisel although you will mar it and risk gouging the bb shell on the frame. Get it inspected; the decision might be a foregone conclusion.

The fixed cup sometimes has flats for a wrench. Get that side off and inspect the spindle to see if it's pitted before you waste too much time worrying about it. You can clean the grease and check the other side with a flashlight. Alternately, you can drive off the lockring with a cold chisel although you will mar it and risk gouging the bb shell on the frame. Get it inspected; the decision might be a foregone conclusion.

If the lockring is stuck, I can't imagine you could use a wrench to remove the fixed cup, it's probably stuck even more. Unless you have something like a Stein tool that uses the spindle to lock the fixed cup wrench on the flats...

I would never consider reusing 25 year old ball bearings.

Depends how much use they've seen, and the climate the bike has been stored in. For instance, I have a hunch that when I peer into my '79 PY-10's bottom bracket, I'll find prestine bearings.

-Kurt

Well, it seems like my suspicions are now backed up. On my girlfriend's bike, I replaced her BB with the shimano $20 one, and couldn't help but to feel dissapointed on how... not smooth it felt. I do definitely feel cooler when I can clean out some races and bearings and re-lube and go, the idea of replacing cartridges just lacks.... something.

Also, is the only way to know if the bearings are shot is if they are pitted/rusty/dull ? if they are shiny, is that a sure-fire way of guaranteeing that they are fine? Could they have literally worn down, so that they have a smaller radius?

My LBS charges $6 for bearing balls, and that is the only reason I have been reusing bearing balls, any tips on a cheaper place to find em?

Well, it seems like my suspicions are now backed up. On my girlfriend's bike, I replaced her BB with the shimano $20 one, and couldn't help but to feel dissapointed on how... not smooth it felt.

Good man, guinea pig the GFs bike :) :thumb:

My LBS charges $6 for bearing balls, and that is the only reason I have been reusing bearing balls, any tips on a cheaper place to find em?

I got this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/5000-pc-chrome-steel-ball-assortment-1-18-1-4-/310182042250?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item48384a5a8a

1000 bearing balls each of 5 common sizes, grade 25, only $65. Could be a lifetime supply unless you service a lot of bikes...

I have an older bike with "track dropouts" instead of the newer "track fork ends", I'm pretty sure it has the older "ball bearings", not the newer "bearing balls"....

Six bucks is what you should pay for a bag of a hundred grade 25 bearing balls in 1/4". Try finding them online. Most of the bike parts websites have them.

I think the bearings do wear into an ellipse shape. I would get new ones if only to ensure that the adjustment would stick. I would be afraid I was adjusting the bearings against the high spots of the balls, then the BB would get loose when they settled in and started to roll on their smaller, worn diameter.

I would be more than happy to pay $6 for 100 bearing balls, or balls of bearing, but my LBS sells them 12 for $6 in little zip-lock bags.

Also, if I were to buy them from a supplier of bearing balls, what kind should I be looking for? I looked around for a while today, and the quantity of different kinds of bearings astounds me.


I have an older bike with "track dropouts" instead of the newer "track fork ends", I'm pretty sure it has the older "ball bearings", not the newer "bearing balls"....

You should really look into the bearing balls, as they are the new standard. They represent the pinnacle of modern technology.

Try nashbar, niagaracycle, bikepartsusa, harriscyclery(.net) or jensonusa. Or try Mcmaster.com, steel balls, grade 25, 52100 bearing steel.

I think Niagara, bikepartsusa, and maybe harris still sell new 3-piece bottom brackets.

Well, it seems like my suspicions are now backed up. On my girlfriend's bike, I replaced her BB with the shimano $20 one, and couldn't help but to feel dissapointed on how... not smooth it felt. I do definitely feel cooler when I can clean out some races and bearings and re-lube and go, the idea of replacing cartridges just lacks.... something. Yep.

Also, is the only way to know if the bearings are shot is if they are pitted/rusty/dull ? if they are shiny, is that a sure-fire way of guaranteeing that they are fine? Could they have literally worn down, so that they have a smaller radius?

My LBS charges $6 for bearing balls, and that is the only reason I have been reusing bearing balls, any tips on a cheaper place to find em?Machine shop? and to check them out, look closely. Really.

I have an older bike with "track dropouts" instead of the newer "track fork ends", I'm pretty sure it has the older "ball bearings", not the newer "bearing balls"....

Bearing balls is the correct term and always has been. Ball bearings are are a type of bearing that uses bearing balls.

OK, since you can use the bike coop, take apart the BB and inspect it. If it's in good shape, regrease it and button it back up. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

I agree with this. I've had two of those with 25 years of age and between 2000 and 25,000 miles on them. Neither one had much sign of wear when disassembled. Regrease it, and it will still be the perfect fit for that crank, and should give you another 10 years. Then you won't have to research the modern perfect fit equivalent.

That's because the old stuff got balls. Cartridge BB's are sissy.

:innocent:

-Kurt

+1, someone is finally telling it like it is!!!

+1, someone is finally telling it like it is!!!

Well, besides that point, how can anyone tolerate a cartridge BB when accustomed to the smooth spinning of a traditional BB?

Those modern fellows have a lot of nerve to bring up excessive friction in any discussion, when the majority of cartridge BBs on the market (perhaps with exclusion to the external-bearing designs) are about the biggest step backwards in friction loss that the cycling world has seen - and I'm just talking about square taper BBs. You want to talk ISIS? It is virtually impossible to find a single ISIS BB in existence that will spin well and have a decent life span. Choose one or the other - never both - and you'll wind up cheated on both accounts. Ditto for Shimano Octastink.

-Kurt

So most bottom brackets use quarter inch balls? What size are axle and headset ones usually?

So most bottom brackets use quarter inch balls? What size are axle and headset ones usually?


Everyone that should have one of these.

Mike

http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=18&item=SBC%2D1

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bottombrackets.html#british

What the heck are you guys talking about? I love retro and old bike parts (like my friction downtube shifters, etc.) but have never seen a cup-and-cone BB that's as smooth as a regular shimano un54 sealed unit. I've adjusted probably a dozen (maybe not as many as you guys, or not the right ones, etc. I suppose) cup-and-cone and have never had one as smooth as a sealed unit.

And short life span? I actually think the shimano sealed units give phenomenal lifespan before they get play or roughness. I commute 30 miles daily on a un54 that I've had for over 4 years now and it's still as smooth as when I bought it. I'm really not blowing smoke, I've been right impressed with it compared to the old cc units I used to have.

Is this a retrogrouch thing with more emotion than fact? ;). I can see "not changing what works" and think that cc bottom brackets do indeed work just fine, but I've never heard people touting them as superior technology!

Bearing balls is the correct term and always has been.....

Are you sure? I worked at an LBS in the late 70's and all of our bikes had ball bearings, when did they start putting bearing balls in bikes? We even made a frame for an Olympic Team Sprinter, his bike had Campy track dropouts in the rear, now I see newer track bikes come with track ends, what are those?

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/SET-TRACK-DROPOUT.html


What the heck are you guys talking about?...

LOL, you're not from around here, are you?

What the heck are you guys talking about? I love retro and old bike parts (like my friction downtube shifters, etc.) but have never seen a cup-and-cone BB that's as smooth as a regular shimano un54 sealed unit. I've adjusted probably a dozen (maybe not as many as you guys, or not the right ones, etc. I suppose) cup-and-cone and have never had one as smooth as a sealed unit.

Sure, the UN74 is smooth. Just because its smooth doesn't mean it isn't gummy. Have you ever adjusted a cup-and-spindle BB that was completely repacked, with all the grit removed out of the bearing cages?


I've been right impressed with it compared to the old cc units I used to have.

May I ask what sort of traditional BB's have you owned in the past?

-Kurt

Are you sure? I worked at an LBS in the late 70's and all of our bikes had ball bearings, when did they start putting bearing balls in bikes?

Ball bearings = Differentiates the assembly from other types, such as "needle bearings."
Bearing balls = The round steel balls themselves.



LOL, you're not from around here, are you?

Look at his posting record. Spends a lot of time in Bicycle Mechanics. There's a warning flag right there.

-Kurt

http://www.bikeforums.net/../images/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Mr IGH http://www.bikeforums.net/../images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bikeforums.net/../showthread.php?p=11209944#post11209944)
LOL, you're not from around here, are you?
Look at his posting record. Spends a lot of time in Bicycle Mechanics. There's a warning flag right there.

-KurtYou guys are goofy man! What does this even mean? ;) Is the real secret of the Mason's here in CV instead of the mechanics section?

Are cottered cranks really the bees knees? ;)


LOL, you're not from around here, are you?

Not usually, but maybe I'll wander in here more often now.

Sure, the UN74 is smooth. Just because its smooth doesn't mean it isn't gummy.

Huh? :lol:


May I ask what sort of traditional BB's have you owned in the past?

Yeah, last one I overhauled was a 1974 Raleigh LTD-3 (3-speed) with cottered cranks and a really cool axle with the nottingham logo stamped on it. I adjusted/repacked it and it worked great, but not a sealed unit.

Other ones would be the typical english/threaded cup-and-cone from various 80's road bikes - one a univega with shimano 600 stuff on it....but I don't know the bb brand or anything...never really paid much attention.

Maybe the old campy stuff is better..? I'm willing to be that someone here will tell me :)

....I'm willing to be that someone here will tell me :)
Now you're getting it...get your pedantic on, there's serious issues that need resolving....


Ball bearings = Differentiates the assembly from other types, such as "needle bearings."
Bearing balls = The round steel balls themselves.
resting my case ;)

So most bottom brackets use quarter inch balls? What size are axle and headset ones usually?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/bearings.html

Scroll down to the chart.