Fifty Plus (50+) - Shorter top tube, taller head tube?

to enable higher drop bars for old fart.

Want Titanium.

Litespeed Veneto is one (now out of production). Don't really want to waste time waiting for a used one to come up on bike.jaxed.com. Life is too short--then one finally comes up on ebay and some guy like me is willing to pay a king's ransom.

Custom-made is another choice.

Huge stack of spacers on uncut steerer or "steerer extender" on cut steerer are other choices. I'm using both of these options presently. They get the job done, but I'd like a more polished solution (possible pun:D).

What I don't understand is what you older guys are riding with drop bars. I've always been limber, but now at 65 I'm more comfortable with the top of the bar several inches above the seat.

Are there other stock frames out there with shorter top tubes and taller head tubes?

Would one of the Rivendell bikes work?

What size frame do you ride? How short a TT?

I have a Custom Gunnar, with a 68cm ST (c-c), a 60cm TT, and a 29cm HT. Both the ST and HT are the max they can go, I think because of tubing limits. Gunnar is part of Waterford, which makes some of Rivendell's frames. Here is a link to the spec's of my frame: http://waterfordbikes.com/now/frameconf.php?user_key=29d86a7b3d07748cb857c3ce3683f617

And here is pic, although I've changed a few things since then, most notably the bars. They have a pricelist on-line.

162162

Level with the saddle, you would be able to find, but to get your handlebars several inches above saddle height without an extender or tall stack of spacers is probably going to call for a custom frame. If your budget can handle it, several reputable builders make custom Ti frames, Lynskey for example. Habanero does custom Ti frames for about $1250.

What about using a flat bar?

What about using a flat bar?

This idea comes up every time we have a discussion like this, and I've never been able to see how that would help. The top of the bar would be at the same height - true, you'd have a bit less reach, but you can do that with a shorter stem, so...

SP
Bend, OR

to enable higher drop bars for old fart.

Want Titanium.

Litespeed Veneto is one (now out of production). Don't really want to waste time waiting for a used one to come up on bike.jaxed.com. Life is too short--then one finally comes up on ebay and some guy like me is willing to pay a king's ransom.

How high do you want the bars?
While the Litespeed Veneto (http://www.litespeed.com/2003/bikes/veneto.html) definitely had a short top tube and fairly tall head tube, I don't see how you would get the bars more than a couple of inches above the seat without a stem riser.

The problem with the steerer extender (I have a dimension)162323 is the weight. It certainly gives more support to the bars than just an uncut steerer and spacers, but the thing feels like it's made out of lead. There's another one made by zoom162324 which I haven't seen in person but might be marginally lighter.
Since Niagara sells both, I sent them an email asking about relative weights. Some Guy named Paul sends me back the weights (in their packaging). And he was sure to point that out, since he knew I was interested in the weight on the bike. So helpful makes me want to givem all my business!

The Litespeed Veneto came to my attention because it has a 17.8 head tube paired with a 53.8 top tube. That would get me down to just a couple inches of spacers, which I could certainly live with, especially if I got a good price on the frame, being used and old.

My objective in starting this thread is to try to find other frames like the Veneto.

Rivendell is not for everybody. I'm one of the nots. This is just a first impression. I went to their site based on the post above. First thing I saw was that their flagship model price has been jacked up 25%. Somehow I don't often buy stuff just after the price has been raised 25%. Then I went to read about their warranty, where this guy takes a whole page to tell you that there is no specific warranty, but that doesn't matter, because he thinks of his customers as his friends and he can be counted on to do the right thing. Wow, what a concept! Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy . . . Can't understand all the idiots who prefer a specific warranty, for a clearly defined period . . . it's just so unnecessary! The final turnoff was that even if (at his discretion) he decides that a frame was really factory defective, the customer still pays for the shipping to get it fixed. Hey, that's certainly fair . . .

Thanks for the responses!

Grant Petersen at Rivendell has been at the forefront of designing road bikes with higher handlebars and a relaxed riding position. He might be a bit peculiar, but he is one of the good guys in the bicycle world. His strong opinions and his way of doing business can put some people off, but I would never worry about whether he would do the right thing. Rivendell only makes lugged steel frames, so if you want titanium, you won't find it there.

I bet you've never had anybody ask "How tall are you?".

Not yet today, but hey, it's early. :-)

Grant Petersen at Rivendell has been at the forefront of designing road bikes with higher handlebars and a relaxed riding position. He might be a bit peculiar, but he is one of the good guys in the bicycle world. His strong opinions and his way of doing business can put some people off, but I would never worry about whether he would do the right thing. Rivendell only makes lugged steel frames, so if you want titanium, you won't find it there.

Actually I think I overdid it--no need to be so negative. Everybody's just doing their thing. If it works for them, who am I to knock it.

If you're looking for a bike that has a 54cm TT and a 18cm HT I think you will have to go custom. Is that with the stem flipped in the up position? Also, with that geometry, special attention will need to be paid to chainstay length, front center and trail to make it ride well.

Since Niagara sells both, I sent them an email asking about relative weights. Some Guy named Paul sends me back the weights (in their packaging). And he was sure to point that out, since he knew I was interested in the weight on the bike. So helpful makes me want to givem all my business!
How happy would you have been getting the opened package (doesn't look new) if he had weighed the item for some other customer?

Want Titanium.

Custom-made is another choice.

I own a Litespeed. Bought it to evaluate Ti before ponying up for a full custom rig.

Here's my shortlist of custom Ti builders I'm considering

Carl Strong -- Strong Frames (http://www.strongframes.com/)
Tom Kellogg -- Spectrum Cycles (http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/)
Sean Chaney -- Vertigo Cycles (http://www.vertigocycles.com/)

Plan on $2,800 to $3,200 for the frame, plus options and components if you go for a full build.

See http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/ to read up these builders and many more.

I own a Litespeed. Bought it to evaluate Ti before ponying up for a full custom rig.

Here's my shortlist of custom Ti builders I'm considering

Carl Strong -- Strong Frames (http://www.strongframes.com/)
Tom Kellogg -- Spectrum Cycles (http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/)
Sean Chaney -- Vertigo Cycles (http://www.vertigocycles.com/)

Plan on $2,800 to $3,200 for the frame, plus options and components if you go for a full build.

See http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/ to read up these builders and many more.

Interesting, Thanks.

The problem with the steerer extender (I have a dimension)162323 is the weight. It certainly gives more support to the bars than just an uncut steerer and spacers, but the thing feels like it's made out of lead. There's another one made by zoom162324 which I haven't seen in person but might be marginally lighter.

Has anyone used these things? I think I might need to raise my handlebars up another one or two inches. I'm tired of the neck and shoulder pain.

Has anyone used these things? I think I might need to raise my handlebars up another one or two inches. I'm tired of the neck and shoulder pain.

As I mentioned, I have the black one ($20 from Niagara). It does the job just fine, but it's heavy and looks just a tad dorky. That doesn't detract from it's usefulness, but it's not as nice looking as an uncut steerer with spacers. More rigid, though. And if I spend a lot of money on a new Ti frame, I'd rather have this problem handled in the frame design.

As BD said, Habanero is a choice for low priced custom ti. BF member HerbM has one with a head tube that I think is about 300mm.
If you wanted steel you could get a custom Gunnar frame for about $1100, a soma for even less.

Hey tsl, have you considered Kent Eriksen?

As BD said, Habanero is a choice for low priced custom ti. BF member HerbM has one with a head tube that I think is about 300mm.
If you wanted steel you could get a custom Gunnar frame for about $1100, a soma for even less.

Hey tsl, have you considered Kent Eriksen?

Good tip, Thanks. I sent herbm a pm--hopefully I can see what his bike looks like--I'm having trouble visualizing it.

http://www.habcycles.com/custom.html

An example of what they can do with a tall head tube. Might even be herbm's bike.
http://www.habcycles.com/hmcustom2.JPG

That sure looks like Herb's bike! One thing about a head tube like that is only a couple forks have a long enough steerer for it. Of course, you could always get a custom fork, too.

That sure looks like Herb's bike!

I don't know Herb, but I noticed the name of the file is "hmcustom2.jpg".

Hey tsl, have you considered Kent Eriksen?

No, I hadn't. It's tough keeping track of the 43,187 framebuilders in the US. :) Or even the 200-300 that exhibit at the North American Handmade Bicycle Show (http://www.handmadebicycleshow.com/).

I wonder if this suggestion is silly, but when I (64) first visited my LBS he put me on a Specialized Roubaix (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=10Roubaix&eid=4951&menuItemId=9257). The geometry is quite different from most other bikes because the head tube is much higher. It also has a very "plush" ride - it's been designed for soaking up bumps. I found the bike very, very comfortable to ride.

No, I hadn't. It's tough keeping track of the 43,187 framebuilders in the US. :) Or even the 200-300 that exhibit at the North American Handmade Bicycle Show (http://www.handmadebicycleshow.com/).

Well Kent won for best ti bike at that show 2 years in a row.

He's the guy who founded Moots.

Well Kent won for best ti bike at that show 2 years in a row.

He's the guy who founded Moots.

And that's why I'm shying away. I'm not looking at Moots, or Serotta, or Seven, or even Lynskey, because I'm not interested in a production frame, no matter how much they're willing to customize it. I got the same sense from Eriksen's web site, that it was a small company, not one guy.

I'm looking for a frame made by one guy, with his own two hands, and that guy being someone who I can relate to, and who can understand my desires and needs, then render them in metal. Hence my the choices on my short list. Their sense of bikes, and values, resonate with me.

And that's why I'm shying away. I'm not looking at Moots, or Serotta, or Seven, or even Lynskey, because I'm not interested in a production frame, no matter how much they're willing to customize it. I got the same sense from Eriksen's web site, that it was a small company, not one guy.

I'm looking for a frame made by one guy, with his own two hands, and that guy being someone who I can relate to, and who can understand my desires and needs, then render them in metal. Hence my the choices on my short list. Their sense of bikes, and values, resonate with me.

I'm all for supporting the independent framebuilder, but you had better be prepared for a long wait or unexpected delays in the scheduled delivery. The advantage the "production" builders have is while they may have one or two welders to put the frame together, it then gets handed to a finisher, then painter etc. There are time advantages in the assembly process and each person in the chain can specialize in what they do. Also, because they build more frames, the larger company might have more experience in a wider range of bikes, ride styles, geometry etc. YMMV of course.

I own a Litespeed. Bought it to evaluate Ti before ponying up for a full custom rig.

Here's my shortlist of custom Ti builders I'm considering

Carl Strong -- Strong Frames (http://www.strongframes.com/)
Tom Kellogg -- Spectrum Cycles (http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/)
Sean Chaney -- Vertigo Cycles (http://www.vertigocycles.com/)

Plan on $2,800 to $3,200 for the frame, plus options and components if you go for a full build.

See http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/ to read up these builders and many more.

Bruce,

If you posted the "Final Report" I missed it. Sounds like you have made the decision that TI is the way to go.
Last thing I recall reading was that your conclusion was that the bikes were not quite similar enough to fully judge - Ti seemed a little stiffer but was a joy to ride.

Don't want to Hijack this thread on that endless rat hole but would love to get an update on the grand experiment.

And that's why I'm shying away. I'm not looking at Moots, or Serotta, or Seven, or even Lynskey, because I'm not interested in a production frame, no matter how much they're willing to customize it. I got the same sense from Eriksen's web site, that it was a small company, not one guy.

I'm looking for a frame made by one guy, with his own two hands, and that guy being someone who I can relate to, and who can understand my desires and needs, then render them in metal. Hence my the choices on my short list. Their sense of bikes, and values, resonate with me.

I can dig it.

First, I respect your opinions and preferences. And those of everyone else interested in buying a bike--be it off the shelf, customized, or fully bespoke. My replies here are just to assure you that I've thought through all the objections you raise--I'm not trying to change your mind or anyone else's.


I'm all for supporting the independent framebuilder, but you had better be prepared for a long wait or unexpected delays in the scheduled delivery. I am. I'm still one of the younger 50+ members. I'm not likely to expire while on a builder's wait list. Meanwhile, I have four excellent bikes to keep me busy.


The advantage the "production" builders have is while they may have one or two welders to put the frame together, it then gets handed to a finisher, then painter etc. There are time advantages in the assembly process and each person in the chain can specialize in what they do.

And there are communications deficiencies. Those two guys welding on the line don't know me from a bag of a$$holes. (Although frequently I'm told I belong in that bag.) They don't know my requirements, preferences or needs. All they know is that someone, somewhere told them to stick these here pipes together, and that payday is Friday. (You might want to go to that link I posted above and read about Dave Kirk's experiences working at Serotta, before he struck out on his own.)

If I go with Ti or stainless, it won't have to be painted. They're both TIGged, so there's little to finish. If I go with regular steel, it will be sent out to a painter that specializes in painting frames.


Also, because they build more frames, the larger company might have more experience in a wider range of bikes, ride styles, geometry etc. YMMV of course.

But I'm interested in only one bike--mine. I have no interest other styles or geometries. All I want is what will work for me, and a few embellishments.

My paternal grandfather was a tin knocker at Kodak. He made things with his hands both at work and at home. Hell, he built every house he owned as an adult. Although he passed several decades ago, my most cherished possessions are two toolboxes he made. One is stainless steel and fits a set of 1/4" drive and 3/8" drive sockets and ratchets. The bottoms of the socket compartments are ramped so that when you open the box, the tops of the sockets are level. The other toolbox he made for me as my first fishing tackle box. Nearly 50 years later, my bike tools reside in it.

I was brought up to appreciate the work of an individual craftsman. That's the sort of thing I'm looking for in my next bike.

If you posted the "Final Report" I missed it. Sounds like you have made the decision that TI is the way to go.

No, I haven't.

BTW, I have an entirely different shortlist of builders I'm considering for steel, and a third list if I decide on stainless steel.

I was sick for four weeks after I built-up the Litespeed. I have only 250 miles on it, far too early to determine anything. Hell, I'm still getting the fit dialed-in. About the only thing I'm willing to say about it right now its that it's subtle.

It's a nice day. I think I'll take it for a spin through horse country.

to enable higher drop bars for old fart.

Want Titanium.

Litespeed Veneto is one (now out of production). Don't really want to waste time waiting for a used one to come up on bike.jaxed.com. Life is too short--then one finally comes up on ebay and some guy like me is willing to pay a king's ransom.

Custom-made is another choice.

Huge stack of spacers on uncut steerer or "steerer extender" on cut steerer are other choices. I'm using both of these options presently. They get the job done, but I'd like a more polished solution (possible pun:D).

What I don't understand is what you older guys are riding with drop bars. I've always been limber, but now at 65 I'm more comfortable with the top of the bar several inches above the seat.

Are there other stock frames out there with shorter top tubes and taller head tubes?

Whenever a rider talks about geometry, its about fit. Perhaps you might try looking at the issue from what's called "stack and reach". At slowtwitch.com there's an article on this. Also at the Cervelo website, under Engineering, you will find how they use stack and reach for their solutions to geometry/fit.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Bike_Fit/Stack_Reach_Primer_Chapter_One_95.html

http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/engineering/tech-presentations/

First, I respect your opinions and preferences. And those of everyone else interested in buying a bike--be it off the shelf, customized, or fully bespoke. My replies here are just to assure you that I've thought through all the objections you raise--I'm not trying to change your mind or anyone else's.

I am. I'm still one of the younger 50+ members. I'm not likely to expire while on a builder's wait list. Meanwhile, I have four excellent bikes to keep me busy.



And there are communications deficiencies. Those two guys welding on the line don't know me from a bag of a$$holes. (Although frequently I'm told I belong in that bag.) They don't know my requirements, preferences or needs. All they know is that someone, somewhere told them to stick these here pipes together, and that payday is Friday. (You might want to go to that link I posted above and read about Dave Kirk's experiences working at Serotta, before he struck out on his own.)

If I go with Ti or stainless, it won't have to be painted. They're both TIGged, so there's little to finish. If I go with regular steel, it will be sent out to a painter that specializes in painting frames.



But I'm interested in only one bike--mine. I have no interest other styles or geometries. All I want is what will work for me, and a few embellishments.

My paternal grandfather was a tin knocker at Kodak. He made things with his hands both at work and at home. Hell, he built every house he owned as an adult. Although he passed several decades ago, my most cherished possessions are two toolboxes he made. One is stainless steel and fits a set of 1/4" drive and 3/8" drive sockets and ratchets. The bottoms of the socket compartments are ramped so that when you open the box, the tops of the sockets are level. The other toolbox he made for me as my first fishing tackle box. Nearly 50 years later, my bike tools reside in it.

I was brought up to appreciate the work of an individual craftsman. That's the sort of thing I'm looking for in my next bike.

I completely understand what you are saying. I think the problem some people have is they don't. Usually when one orders a custom bike they want it now, lol and are not truly prepared for the real lead time involved. Also, some builders are better than others when it comes to communicating and following through with their plans. I'm sure you will do your research so you hire the builder that works best for you.