Touring - my dream touring bike

okay if i had the money to get a custom frame what would you guy's think is the best tubing to use, I really do fancy a touring frame made from the best titanium but would 725 steel tubing be better..my requirements would have to be a strong light frame capable of carrying
any load well within reason;)
okay that's the frame sorted now the wheels 700c my thorn has all shimano groopset so lets go for something completely different i was thinking,
Mavic 719 rims
royce hubs 9 speed,
dt double butted spokes brass nipples,
13 to 28 cassette if possible.
tires emm not sure but either 28/.32 max
fenders?.
how does that lot sound can you come up with a better wheel:thumb:
crankset and gears I'm not sure but would have to be STI leavers and triple crankset good range of gears.
I'll stick to my brooks saddle nonbetter.
bars have to be drops not sure of the make any suggestions ,
racks I'll go with tubus.
okay i kinda know most of the stuff i would love but i need advice on frame /wheels /groopset.
there are so many great touring bikes out there i have one in my thorn but i want one that's kinda unique to me if you know what i mean.
so any thought's as to what i should dream about thanks in advance.:thumb:

Some contradictions inherent in "strong light frame capable of carrying any load well within reason"

too light and you can expect lateral flexibility, a 1.125" OD top and seat tube, 1.25" down tube is a common solution.

Another approach, Ovalizing a top tube , placed laterally for the top tube, and vertically for the downtube,
may give more solid feel under load without much weight penalty .. say a 50x35mm oval, probably using a fillet brazed construction.

My double top tube frame was solid feeling , they are placed side by side , and are a part of 2 complete tubes, starting from attaching at the BB shell.
bent at the rear axle, and top of the seat tube, of a bit more substantial .049" wall .75"OD tube.

the headtube has the 2 top tubes on either side ,
with a connecting gusset behind the head tube reinforcing all 3.
It allowed me to place the frame fit pump largely between the 2 tubes , so hoisting the bike sideways did not knockoff the pump,as happened so often when fitted beneath the top tube ..

other adaptation , 2 bottle bosses on the top of the down tube , one beneath, and one on the seatpost. for 4 .

I like pretty simple and beefy tubing, given my size. Lighter tubing isn't optimal for me, unless it wasn't loaded touring, or was mostly for non-touring use. To that end I have experimented a little with 4130 straight wall tubing. People often complement the ride of BF bikes, and they are 4130, just to list one data point.

I think it helps to ask the builder, not all builders will use the same brand or be comfortable with the same types of tubing. No point in going for 953 if the builder you choose is a low mileage user or a non-user.

Since we are dreaming, I would definitely get custom racks, one of my favorite aspects of playing with touring bikes. I really like Arvon Stacey's racks, and Sakkitt. They both have really long rear racks that actually support the length of my tent and bag. Also I think with custom you really want to dig deeper in the process. When buying off the rack one basically buys the stuff that has the most likelihood of being good, and one normally starts with the bike, because that is normally the biggest hurdle. With custom, everything should be perfect, and one may prefer other logic in selecting stuff. For instance the choose the perfect load, then the perfect bag, then the perfect custom racks, and only then the perfect frame to carry them, is one option. I design boats, and this is a very common problem. People have a sense of how much boat they can afford so they say they want a 40 footer, but one should start with fundamentals like the number of people in the crew, the amount of water they will need for the voyage, whatever, and then build from that.

Some contradictions inherent in "strong light frame capable of carrying any load well within reason"

too light and you can expect lateral flexibility, a 1.125" OD top and seat tube, 1.25" down tube is a common solution.

Another approach, Ovalizing a top tube , placed laterally for the top tube, and vertically for the downtube,
may give more solid feel under load without much weight penalty .. say a 50x35mm oval, probably using a fillet brazed construction.

My double top tube frame was solid feeling , they are placed side by side , and are a part of 2 complete tubes, starting from attaching at the BB shell.
bent at the rear axle, and top of the seat tube, of a bit more substantial .049" wall .75"OD tube.

the headtube has the 2 top tubes on either side ,
with a connecting gusset behind the head tube reinforcing all 3.
It allowed me to place the frame fit pump largely between the 2 tubes , so hoisting the bike sideways did not knockoff the pump,as happened so often when fitted beneath the top tube ..

other adaptation , 2 bottle bosses on the top of the down tube , one beneath, and one on the seatpost. for 4 .
do you have a photo of that frame i can't understand your post when you say double top tube cant see how you would attach it to headtube.or bottombracket.

does titanium not have the advantage of being much stronger and much lighter than the best steel .if that' is the case why whould i have flex in a well made ti frame.
any thought's on wheels and components thanks.

I like pretty simple and beefy tubing, given my size. Lighter tubing isn't optimal for me, unless it wasn't loaded touring, or was mostly for non-touring use. To that end I have experimented a little with 4130 straight wall tubing. People often complement the ride of BF bikes, and they are 4130, just to list one data point.

I think it helps to ask the builder, not all builders will use the same brand or be comfortable with the same types of tubing. No point in going for 953 if the builder you choose is a low mileage user or a non-user.

Since we are dreaming, I would definitely get custom racks, one of my favorite aspects of playing with touring bikes. I really like Arvon Stacey's racks, and Sakkitt. They both have really long rear racks that actually support the length of my tent and bag. Also I think with custom you really want to dig deeper in the process. When buying off the rack one basically buys the stuff that has the most likelihood of being good, and one normally starts with the bike, because that is normally the biggest hurdle. With custom, everything should be perfect, and one may prefer other logic in selecting stuff. For instance the choose the perfect load, then the perfect bag, then the perfect custom racks, and only then the perfect frame to carry them, is one option. I design boats, and this is a very common problem. People have a sense of how much boat they can afford so they say they want a 40 footer, but one should start with fundamentals like the number of people in the crew, the amount of water they will need for the voyage, whatever, and then build from that.

Agree with all of this.

Thanks!

What I meant by the load first thing (or any other very important starting place), is that if you did that with an off the rack purchase you would end up riding a bike that was dictated by your panniers, hypothetically, and that would be silly for the most part. But with custom, the parts are being shaped together, so your seat (for instance) isn't where it is because the seat post, rails and seat tube make it that way. You start with where the seat needs to be in space, then figure out where that seat needs to be supported given it's rails (Brooks is a little special in this regard), then maybe you decide you don't need an offset post because this isn't a road racing frame, and then you decide what the seat post angle needs to be for all that to go together. Then maybe you move on to seat suspension (I have bad back, but haven't needed this yet, it is just an example) so you have to make adjustments for the spring on your Brooks or a compression seat post, then all this is taken into account for you top tube height, and so on. And every design change you make gets stired back into the design spiral and worked up against everything else. And around and round you go until something sensible gels.


A lot of people love Ti, but while it is strong for a given weight, it is still heavy enough that going super oversize like Al can be a problem. So in smaller tubes it can be to flexy. Numbers are something in the order of 50% stronger than steel, 66% of the weight, while Al is 33% of the weight. Form is more dramatic than material type in configuring the structure. I'm sure those numbers are wrong, but that is the direction of the argument, which is where carbon comes in being both light and strong, relative to steel. Bad news is epoxy is not (love the stuff, sleep with it at my bedside, just saying though. So Ti might be more appropriete for non-clydesdales who don't have huge sway/shimy control needs

only pictures are on film no scanner....
Black doesn't photo so well for details.

Back to Words .. build is a mix of TIG & Brazing.
chainstay tube ends are TIG welded to the BB shell .
bends up in the back where the wheel mounts ... then passes by both sides of the seat post.

2 tubes are side by side along the top , sloping up then they are attached to Both sides of the Head tube.

head tube of course is wider than the seat tube so they have a greater distance between the 2 tubes

1.25" at the front, [it has a 1" fork steerer].. than the back . .125" seat tube .

Learned where a brace that front gusset, was needed .. in Ireland , on the ring of Kerry.
got it fixed at a shop that welded together AC ducts from Stainless steel back in Killarney.

A Titanium frame would have been unrepairable anywhere in the country, period.

Trip would have ended or turned into a bike buying substitution excursion ,
back to Dublin or Belfast, at least.

ok so you guy's don't favor ti that's fine all info is good.ok then it's steel not that i mind steel i don't one of my my road bike's is 753 reynolds steel fantastic bike its about 28 years old now and still as good as the day i bought it.but it's not a touring bike i want to get a new touring bike,so come on lads give me a list of components i can stick up on my wall and tick off when i have the money to buy them.

Touring Bike : Rohloff Hub. rear .. Schmidt SON front .. lights are good ,
this is a darn good machine:

http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/touring-bikes/silkroad/index.html
http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/commuter-bikes/boulevard/index.html

this is their 622-35 bike

http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/touring-bikes/grande-route/index.html
http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/commuter-bikes/via-veneto/index.html

in general.. only custom sizing is missing.

Option of built in USB plug attached to the Dyno hub is rather interesting
to those who want bring a number of tech gadgets on their trips and recharge
or run stuff off that power source, while they ride..

http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/components/the-plug/index.html

thanks for that but I'm afraid none of those bike do it for me,don't want rohloff or straight bars or disc brakes .
ah well suppose i had better keep looking.

lol... so what is it you are really after, you already have one of the best touring bikes, you want an unusual frame? Something different? Maybe go bamboo. If something happens on the road just find a carpenter or flower arranger.

It seems like my stock answer when it comes to dream bikes is this... :)

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/arvonworldtourist1.JPG

One of the coolest features is the rear hub... I do not believe that there is anything else like it out there and it does require a custom frame due to it's 160mm spacing, 0 dish, and ability to use dual freewheels.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/arvonworldtouristrhub1.JPG

I am also very fond of Arvon racks as they are made from aircraft grade chromoly, skillfully brazed, custom fitted, and virtually indestructible.

I am a little biased as I work with Mr. Stacey and will spend the next week working on frames and designing and building some custom racks.

I would never build or buy a touring bike made out of anything but high quality steel... a well made steel frame will be nearly as light as Ti and as someone mentioned, these can be repaired by anyone who has skills with a torch should the unthinkable happen.

Same applies to racks... a lightweight tubular steel rack is the only way to go... and they are easily repairable.

Can't say the same thing about aluminium or Ti.

And as always... support your local frame builder whenever possible.

thank's folks ok i've settled on a frame Paul Villiers in the uk the frame will cost my around £1000 expensive but this will be the last bike I'll buy in my lifetime.
i will more more than likely have to sell my thorn sherpa and look kx light to fund this new bike but i reckon it will be worth it.
yes the sherpa is a fantastic bike but it's really a expedition machine travel the world bike something i will never do.
so if anyone is interested in a 100% perfect thorn with all the top notch stuff on her let me know,as for my look well its young man's bike dream machine i seldom ride it these days same apply s.

I humbly disagree with Sixty Fiver on titanium...

I think it depends on how the touring bike will be used. If he's going out in the bush, you have a point...but he says he isn't. The price involved in repairing a steel frame...with the repaint...is high enough where I'd argue it doesn't make sense to repair it most of the time. There IS a weight savings, though I'd argue who cares when you're adding so much weight anyway, but there's another thing about ti which would make it great for touring...it's essentially impervious to rush, you don't need to worry about scratching paint when you lean it somewhere and it's easier to maintain.

There are some sacrifices...you can't cold set it later, it's pricier to add braze ons and it's expensive (although not much more than one of the high quality steels you mention). I don't think titanium bikes tend to hold their value as much as steel bikes on the used market, but that can be a plus when buying one.

I think a ti touring frame makes a lot of sense...as would ti racks...provided you weren't in an isolated area for your riding where you could repair/replace things. If weight is a real concern, there is a distinct advantage to ti.

Touring Bike : Rohloff Hub. rear .. Schmidt SON front .. lights are good ,
this is a darn good machine:

http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/touring-bikes/silkroad/index.html
http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/commuter-bikes/boulevard/index.html



I have a silkroad, and I built it with nitto drop bars. It is wonderful.... it doesnt need straight bars. frame was less than 1000 USD tax-free from germany.

positron the silk road is a beauty but it has 600 wheels i have a bike with 600 wheels i dont need another one.
i think i will go with the villiers frame to be honest.if i am lucky enough to get it I'm still not sure what wheels and groopset to go for shimano is good but there has to be better out there.

I am sure people will disagree, but Campagnolo is light years ahead of Shimano for brifters. I don't know much (or anything) about bar cons...since I hate them...but the ergos are a far superior product to the STI stuff...better front trim, more precise shifts, less maitenance and more durable. I will never build up a newer bike with Shimano again...Campy is worth the price difference.

Please note...I;ve never ridden the electric stuff, so I could be totally oput dated by saying that.

I would have Ti bike if I didn't weigh so much, in the 230s. I really like the fact it doesn't need paint and won't corrode, I just don't think it is the tubing choice for everyone, but it would only take a better choice of tubes to change my mind on that. As a small builder I have the additional problem that my choice of metal is restricted to a much smaller set of choices. Where I can get dozens or hundreds of steel choices I have only one choice for each tube in Ti, probably need to broaden m y choice of supply.

I don't think the idea of the raodside repair is to save the bike, as a builder I would certainly just get a new frame. The idea is to get to the end of the tour. I think that all frame materials could be composite repaired in the field by virtually any reasonably handy person, so there would be options fo Ti. These repairs can be curred overnight, or even in less time. Certain areas, mostly the dropouts would not be easily repaired this way, so there are limits.

No problem..
there are ways to mount the gripshifter that pulls the 2 cables on a Rohloff hub . and still use drop handlebars, attach to the steer tube column,
with a second short stem you can grip a 7/8" tube and slip the grip shifter there.
or , with the HubBub adaptor, in the end of the handlebar.

Saw a German custom builder's site, they used 7/8 tube, got drop bars made out of it, and a clamp stem for the 2 tubes , so shift grip is top center on the bar.

for example this is a 700c wheel bike, http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/commuter-bikes/via-veneto/index.html , just need to use cable disc calipers
so there are V brake levers for road bars, and Avid road disc calipers if you want Brifters.

Myself I find trekking bars work fine.. at 63 not bending over so far is better.

found this bike, used little, modified the bars to be higher, and added a 2nd stem to mount the bar bag..
http://www.cyclofiend.com/working/2008/wb092-robertclark1008.html

I'm halfway through a build that started with a lugged steel 1989 Trek 520 frame... I'm hoping that it will turn out to be my dream bike as I sort it out over time. I have never had a touring bike before.

I like drops too and figure they will be comfy enough on a long haul so long as I get 'em up higher than I would on other bikes. I've got a new Triple for the front to replace the worn out biopace that was on the original and have scored some good 27" wheels to match the old frame. I'm still debating about racks; I see some people here are into pretty nice stuff when it comes to racks. I don't know if I want to spend so much on them now since it will only be light touring for now...

I'm documenting my build here (http://rantwick.blogspot.com/2009/09/trek-520-build-part-one-bike-needs.html). Be warned that the build is going super duper slowly due to time and money constraints. There will be a post about some parts I've bought soon...