Classic & Vintage - Lousy brakes on vintage bikes?

I have a late 1970's Lotus Odyssey road bike with Shimano 600 brakes. When I stop, they audibly shudder (I can also feel it). I find the brakes work very, very poorly compared to the 105's on my new bike - they can stop the bike on a dime. Part of the problem is I often try to brake from the top of the hoods. The brakes have been adjusted by my LBS who assures me I don't need new pads.

Are modern wheels machined so the brake pads have a dramatically smoother surface to grab?

Which series of 600 brakes? there were many generations.

That being said, I find modern brakes to be one of the biggest improvements in bicycle components in the last 20 years.

Vintage brakes don't stop you - they just slow you down - but still, they should not shudder.
My first suspicion is that there is some issue with the rims. - Also make sure the shoes ARE contacting the rim, and (Not the tire as it will do, if the wheel is a little out of round (- but that brings us back to my first suspicion)

In my limited experience, I prefer old centerpull caliper brakes to old sidepulls. In either case, I have had to bend the caliper arms on both types of brakes to achieve a proper toe in. Before doing this, the squeal and shudder was ridiculous. It would actually ring the bell on my bike. Once I did this, along with installing cool stop salmon pads, I can stop quite well, with no squeal or shudder. I replaced recently old dia compe sidepull brakes with even older mafac racer centerpulls and they stop much better.

The only time I had problems with shuddering during braking it turned out my headset was loose.

hobkirk, Look in Sheldon Brown's stickies for shudder and go from there. Most of todays road brakes are double action and apply addition pressure on the rim. C&V bikes often have single action brakes which just aren't as strong. Even newer designed single action brakes are just no match, an example is my Cane Creek single action brakes vs. any of my Shimano double action brakes.

alr is pretty much spot on. Get the working arms optimized and a good set of pads and it's as good as it gets.

Brad

Vintage brakes don't stop you - they just slow you down - but still, they should not shudder.
My first suspicion is that there is some issue with the rims. - Also make sure the shoes ARE contacting the rim, and (Not the tire as it will do, if the wheel is a little out of round (- but that brings us back to my first suspicion)

I have these brakes on my Cooper that are pretty old, weigh next to nothing, are old fashioned centre pulls, and for the life of me they won't take any polishing and aren't magnetic.

They say "Zeus" on them.

The stopping power these have is amazing (with vintage Scott Matthauser pads).

Wanna talk about my first generation XTR cantis ?

:)

One of the issues with vintage brakes is the conventional levers... many don't have enough pull / leverage to brake effectively from the hoods and a swap to aero levers can increase stopping power at the lever.

Another issue is improper set up or pads that have gone past their due date.

Those 600 brakes are pretty but were never known for their massive stopping power but aren;t crap either... Kool Stop pads and different levers can make them much better brakes.

I have these brakes on my Cooper that are pretty old, weigh next to nothing, are old fashioned centre pulls, and for the life of me they won't take any polishing and aren't magnetic.

They say "Zeus" on them.

The stopping power these have is amazing (with vintage Scott Matthauser pads).

Wanna talk about my first generation XTR cantis ?

:)

One of the issues with vintage brakes is the conventional levers... many don't have enough pull / leverage to brake effectively from the hoods and a swap to aero levers can increase stopping power at the lever.

Another issue is improper set up or pads that have gone past their due date.

Those 600 brakes are pretty but were never known for their massive stopping power but aren;t crap either... Kool Stop pads and different levers can make them much better brakes.

Sixty - The cantilever brakes I've used are much more positive than any of the vintage caliper brakes I've used - even the Mafacs and Weinmann centerpulls.
The side pulls seem to be even worse.

Vintage brakes don't stop you - they just slow you down - but still, they should not shudder.

Someone has never used Campagnolo sidepulls with Scott-Mathauser Model C pads before.

-Kurt

Someone has never used Campagnolo sidepulls with Scott-Mathauser Model C pads before.

-Kurt

That would be me!

1) Get new/good pads.
2) Ensure proper toe-in.

That said, I agree with the rest: single pivot < center pull < dual pivot. There are exceptions but I think that's a good generality. On a road bike there's nothing like good dual pivot calipers with quality pads.

I rode Dura Ace Ax for 25 years. Speed adjusters, at best.

Give me Campy skeletons, those are brakes.

I have these brakes on my Cooper that are pretty old, weigh next to nothing, are old fashioned centre pulls, and for the life of me they won't take any polishing and aren't magnetic.

They say "Zeus" on them.

The stopping power these have is amazing (with vintage Scott Matthauser pads).

Wanna talk about my first generation XTR cantis ?

:)

One of the issues with vintage brakes is the conventional levers... many don't have enough pull / leverage to brake effectively from the hoods and a swap to aero levers can increase stopping power at the lever.

Another issue is improper set up or pads that have gone past their due date.

Those 600 brakes are pretty but were never known for their massive stopping power but aren;t crap either... Kool Stop pads and different levers can make them much better brakes.

Best suggestion in the thread. The brakes may not be stellar, but switching to aero levers will increase your stopping power by a lot (and likely your comfort) and Kool-Stops should make up any further difference.

Kool stop pads are over rated. They're a lot better than old, hard pads, but they won't turn crappy old brakes into good brakes. Even cheap tektro dual pivots with the stock pads blow any vintage brake (regardless of pads) I've ever used out of the water. It's probably safe to say that the 600/ultegra tri-color brakes are the best single pivots ever made, and they're still far worse than the cheap tektro dual pivots. Levers make a huge difference too. Tektro makes really, really nice brake levers that are inexpensive and way better than old stuff in every objective way.

That's just my experience anyway. IMO there's no reason to NOT upgrade to new brakes unless you really want to keep the bike vintage.

Make sure your brake shoes/pads are "toed-in" so the trailing end (to the rim direction of rotation) of the brake shoe blocks hits the rim first so the brake pad progressively contacts the rim as you increase the preassure. If you do not have any toe in, your brake pads will tend to vibrate and shudder. Most better quality brakes have some sort of angle adjustment you can do to the brake shoes. If you don't have it, you might have to carefully slightly bend the caliper ends where the brake shoes mount on to, to introduce some brake shoe toe-in.

Chombi

Make sure the wheels are running true with no wobble at all. It's bad enough for a little brake pad to try and stop a spinning wheel, let alone one that has lateral play at the rim.

Mike

Stopping can be critical. Why not pick up some dual action used via ebay or whatever. They have used calipers on there all of the time. Save the existing brakes to put back on if you ever sell the bike.

Vintage brakes slow you down. Its then up to the operator to avoid collisions, obstacles, vehicular traffic. I always say, leave yourself an out. In other words always be thinking where you will steer to avoid any mishaps. Options include, shoulder of the road, jumping a curb, leaning heavily on a fellow cyclist, yelling obsenities to get people out of the way, and when all else fails - ejector seat. That sort of thing.

If I'm racing, I pretty much want 105 single pivot. They're light and don't do anything drastic, so I can ride hard and not worry about suddent stops. Pretty much worked out yesterday when I dove into a corner at about 22mph and realized at that time my front tire was nearly flat (I just thought the road was rough)... The lack of stopping power allowed me to slide across the road and into a tall grass ditch instead of high-siding and eating asphalt.

Other than racing, i.e. traffic, early in group rides with the accordion effect, etc, I prefer something with double pivots. I like the predictable moderation (for pace lines) and the good stopping power (traffic, traffic, traffic). They are easier to adjust when you really only want 2mm of clearance on a trued wheel, and the ones with centering screws, well, thanks to whomever came up with that.

As far as 600's, yep, the EX are pretty but not for me. For that era, I like the DiaCompes. The 600 were better in the 6400 series, and when they went double pivot, were spot on for the time.

hobkirk, are you using aero levers? I'm assuming you are. If not, they make a huge difference. As for the machining of the new rims, I'm not aware of any difference that would affect braking. IMHO, you have not maximized your brakes if you are experiencing shuddering. If you want to stay vintage, I'd work on the brakes myself and try readjusting them. Also, I'd forget what the mechanic said and for $10, buy some new pads, at least for the front and try the brakes again. While I had them apart, I'd check the cable for ease of operation. I'm always amazed at how cables can screw up an operation.

+1 New cables, housings, new pads on the front, proper toe in, and aero levers are a must, and a good first step. But then I would go out and get a set of dual pivots. You will end up using most of the upgrade stuff with the new calipers, so not much wasted money if you do the work yourself. Paying someone else to do it, and you will have redundant labor charges.

The only time I had problems with shuddering during braking it turned out my headset was loose.

+1

+1 New cables, housings, new pads on the front, proper toe in, and aero levers are a must, and a good first step. But then I would go out and get a set of dual pivots. You will end up using most of the upgrade stuff with the new calipers, so not much wasted money if you do the work yourself. Paying someone else to do it, and you will have redundant labor charges.

I have to admit, all three vintage steel bikes that I ride have dual pivot brakes.

+1 New cables, housings, new pads on the front, proper toe in, and aero levers are a must, and a good first step. But then I would go out and get a set of dual pivots.
Is there a better way to do this than -

buy some dual pivots (like these (http://cgi.ebay.com/Shimano-dual-pivot-brakes-BR-3400-fit-Ultegra-Dura-Ace-/180537936517?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a08e64a85)) off eBay
buy eBay levers like these (http://cgi.ebay.com/Shimano-105-Aero-Brake-levers-Classic-Road-/270611840754?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f01b8fef2)?
Buy just any cable & housing kit? Jagwire? No name?
buy brake pads (Kool Stop?)?

Thanks

I never really had any problems with my Weinmann Centerpulls with standard pads but my Rims are kept true enough to have only about 1/8 inch between the pad surface and the rims. My typical braking is usually only the front brake and typically from the hood position though I can stop faster using both brakes. And always you have to toe in the old calipers. The Mathauser brakes with the cooling fins i tried when touring were super great BUT tore up the rims - but they had toe adjusters that came as part of the pad set.

That said, I have no experience with the new stuff.

I'm going to have to go against the "vintage brakes only slow you down crowd" I have weinmanns on my bike and they aren't too bad as is. Then I put tektro cheapo aero levers on and they stop me just fine. I ride sort of aggressively in a town with lots of pedestrians and crazy california drivers and I always feel like I can stop in plenty of time.

The aero's are way more comfortable as well on the hoods, which is why I made the switch to begin with. Extra stopping power was a nice bonus.

It's funny that a guy comes here asking about improving his braking, and almost everyone suggests replacing all of the braking equipment.

I've never had the problem where I couldn't adjust both brakes such that they could cause both wheels to skid, except with steel rims or horrid brake pads.

Brake pads my friends. Change the brake pads.

I use DA 7400 series brakes, as well as Campy Records on several bikes.

Even steven performance.

Kool Stops are what they have in common.

Set 'em up right, and they both work fine.

None of them work as well the modern Chorus brakes on my Tommasini though.

....and I do like OFG's comment and suggestion about Campy Skeletons.

I ordered some for my wife's Primato, so she'll be the test pilot. :)

I agree with the last four posts. Just this morning I finished tuning up my friend's late 70s Raleigh Competition GS equipped with Shimano 600 calipers and levers (6207). I replaced the old shoes with Kool Stop Supra 2 shoes (black compound). I installed new Jagwire cables and housing. I took my time with the toe-in and put 5 or 6 miles of getting up to speed and braking to a stop. The braking performance is OUTSTANDING.

Vintage brakes only slow you down? Hogwash.

Yes, aero levers offer greater mechanical advantage, but you can achieve EXCELLENT brake performance with your original levers by installing quality pads that allow easy toe-in and taking the time to set them up correctly.

In regards to your question on wheels, the Competition GS in question has the original Weinmann rim in the front and a replacement Alex X rim in the rear. The rear brake performs marginally better (still, both are excellent) and I suspect this has as much to do with the fact that the Alex rim is wider than the Weinmann as the surface of the rim.

OP,

i know what you mean by shuddering. one of my bikes shudders a bit, although i don't care as the brakes work super good. they are gran-compe 400s, which are pretty much the same as 600s. as others have said, i would try getting new pads with a "softer" compound.

...I finished tuning up my friend's late 70s Raleigh Competition GS equipped with Shimano 600 calipers and levers (6207). I replaced the old shoes with Kool Stop Supra 2 shoes (black compound). I installed new Jagwire cables and housing. I took my time with the toe-in and put 5 or 6 miles of getting up to speed and braking to a stop. The braking performance is OUTSTANDING.

I think I will start with Kool Stop Supra 2 pads. If that doesn't work I'll try aero levers next? Then calipers?

Thanks all.

+1

Headset was my first thought too.
Take it back to the shop and have them ride it and ask what they think. I bet they didn't ride it after they "worked" on it.

Most of my bikes have single pivot side pulls, most with new generic replacement shoes. IMO, none of them stop well. Kool stops do improve performance noticeably - on my Bianchi C d'I with Modolos, it went from absolutely abysmal to not good at all. (It already has Aero levers and the gap can't be more than .080" to the braking surfaces.)
The rest of my bikes have center-pull Weinmanns or Mafacs, and I think they are pretty good as far as vintage bikes go,
- but compared to the modern stoppers on my Marin ??? (Engaging it's front brake alone could cause the bike to somersault.)

- That is the basis for my remark that Vintage brakes "just slow you down". It seems like many members replace them with modern Tektro dual pivots, and they might work as well as my Marin, but then of course, you can not call them "vintage".

Vintage brake don't brake??? My Weinmann centerpulls do okay, and the Mafac Racers on my UO-8 will stop a freight train.

As for adjusting them, if the levers don't bottom out when you clamp down hard then it doesn't really matter how close you keep them adjusted to the wheel.

Vintage brake don't brake??? My Weinmann centerpulls do okay, and the Mafac Racers on my UO-8 will stop a freight train.

As for adjusting them, if the levers don't bottom out when you clamp down hard then it doesn't really matter how close you keep them adjusted to the wheel.

I just measured a couple of my Weinmann equipped bikes with my vernier calipers, and as they are, the levers bottom out hard in the first 0.8" of travel.
(It's not relevant for me to measure the Mafac Racer's on my Pug, because I have installed Weinmann levers on it).

I think the whole semantic matter of stopping /slowing is a relative thing: I doubt that yours are much different than mine, but I say to-ma-to, and you say to-MA-to (or visa-versa.)

There are not too many though who would argue that the modern braking systems are not much more potent than the brakes that came on our old gems - but that does not make me like them any less. :)

I just measured a couple of my Weinmann equipped bikes with my vernier calipers, and as they are, the levers bottom out hard in the first 0.8" of travel.
Hmm, I think we mean different hings by "bottom out". I meant the levers hit the bar so you can't squeeze 'em any more. That's bad. You appear to have meant the pads hit the rim and the lever won't go any further. That's good. You can still squeeze harder and get more braking.

I like tomatoes. And pie. And Pi though it ain't edible.

.... You appear to have meant the pads hit the rim and the lever won't go any further.....

Exactly ^

- but I would not say I am fond of tomatoes - except in Italian food.
You know, I think side pulls and center pulls are like tomatoes - and Vintage bikes are like Italian food.

Everybody likes Italian food!

I think I will start with Kool Stop Supra 2 pads. If that doesn't work I'll try aero levers next? Then calipers?

Thanks all.

Sounds like a good course of action. I would add that you should inspect and likely replace the brake cables and housing.

For some odd reason, discussing brakes invariably brings out the oddest of suggestions. To say that double pivot brakes as a whole work better than single pivot is simply nonsense. There are indeed some double pivots that work better than some single pivots, likewise there are some double pivots that don't work at all. It is all a matter of considering the precise model that you intend to use. You must also properly understand how the manufacturer intended the brake to be used.

The OP writes about Weinmann brakes and they never had that great a reputation as the arms did tend to flex more than most. Dia-Compe that made a virtual copy of the same brakes (I believe under license) was however able to overcome this flex and improve on the product that they were copying. The Dia-Compe lever on the other hands was not much good as it had very little leverage. This was however later improved when the aero levers were introduced. Mafac had absolutely terrible production tolerances and are therefore prone to squealing and shuddering (you can however sort them out if you have the time and patience!); they also had brake levers with perhaps the largest reach ever offered. This is great if you have big hands, as was mentioned by Jimmuller, and adjust the brakes in such a way that you simply avoid the brake lever from bottoming out on the handlebar. Universal brake calipers were generally quite good but had the levers that offered the lower value for mechanical advantage, meaning that you needed more hand strength to be able to get the brakes to move the same amount. The calipers also had the nasty tendency to "snap" if you used tried to "bend" them to toe them in (which was standard procedure back then). When Campagnolo came out with their first brake model in the 60's, it came out as a complete "system" with specific over-sized brake cables and specific cable housing and ferrules. It seems that every time that somebody suggest that Campagnolo brakes of the 60's and 70's don't work, you discover that they are using more stretchy brake cables, different cable housing and ferrules and dried out brake pads, and have the brake levers set up where the pads are virtually touching the rims at rest. All of these features detract from the performance.

Modern brakes tend not to depend on the caliper spring to get the brake lever to return to rest position which means that they can get by with a much softer spring and hence less resistance. Fresh rubber is always a good idea too. How many of you have tried driving a car with 30 year old tires, only to then switch them out with fresh ones? I once had a sports car with a motor aft of the rear axle that without trying would spin out if doing a u-turn at any above a snail's pace until I changed the tires. With new tires I couldn't get it to come loose unless I purposely pushed it to spin. The same happens with new rubber brake pads. The stretchiness of brake cables can also have an impact. Some calipers seem to work better with stretchy cables as they seem to work in a progressive nature, others will simply never work with cables that are too stretchy. In fact I have a tandem with cantilever brakes that would simply not stop with the stock braided super thick stainless brake cables. When I then switched them out with regular non-stainless, non-braided 1.8 mm brake cables, all braking problems were resolved.

The OP writes about Weinmann brakes and they never had that great a reputation as the arms did tend to flex more than most.

Funny you should mention those. I've been experimenting with their extremely long reach 1020 caliper as used on the Raleigh Twenty - paired with the mounting bolt/shaft and hardware off a Dia-Compe 500 sidepull. I haven't tried it out on the road, but it feels a good 10 times stiffer in my hands than the stock setup did.

-Kurt

Since the OP, most have forgotten the rims, but for wheel trueness!

When rims were hard-anodized, one of the trade-offs for appearance and alleged hardness/strength was that the braking surface was far more slippery than raw aluminum until it was worn away. More modern machined rim wall do provide a better gripping surface for brake pads. And the rims should be clean, without the black residue coming from brake pad wear. And it's possible that the older rims have a poor seam, contributing to the problem.

I use clean, well trued quality aluminum rims. I'm careful about brake set up: adjustment and toe-in. I use top quality brake pads and cable/housing.

And ham-fistedly grab all of the front brake on any* of my old bikes and you're going over the bars.

tcs

*Except the tandem!

Braking surface has a large role, and I'd say time for new pads. I can pull the levers on my Bianchi all the way to the bars (and they're adjusted well!) and I can't skid going down some large hills in my area. Pads like bricks and older wheels. New pads this week for sure.

I am sure this has been discussed in this thread but I just wanted to post an experience I had over the weekend.

after a short spin I started cleaning and lightly tuning my '90 Proto. I decide to replace the '89 Chorus brake blocks with some of the salmon KoolStop ones I bought over the winter to have on hand "incase I need them" well the difference between those tired old blocks and the new ones is amazing! the Chorus brake was designed to control speed rather than bring you to screeching stop but these new pads are fabulous.

I may as a matter of routine simply replace all pads on new to me bikes over 10 yo.

PS IMHO there is nothing wrong with a properly tuned older brakeset. we are just too used to all the new and improved stuff.

Vintage brakes don't stop you - they just slow you down - but still, they should not shudder.
My first suspicion is that there is some issue with the rims. - Also make sure the shoes ARE contacting the rim, and (Not the tire as it will do, if the wheel is a little out of round (- but that brings us back to my first suspicion)

Haven't tried centerpulls yet, eh? Good ones (read MAFAC) stop at least as well as short-reach dual-pivots, have better modulation, and offer clearance for humongous (700x35c easily) tires AND FENDERS. 'Course you need a frame/fork that has decent clearances too...

SP
Bend, OR

The OP writes about Weinmann brakes...
OP here - Actually I didn't - I had never heard of Weinmann brakes before reading this thread. FWIW, my brakes are Shimano 600's. There is a small amount of out of true in the front wheel (I think that just started today - I had a couple of bad jolts (I weigh 230#).

I had never heard of Weinmann brakes before reading this thread.
Ah, well, Weinmann was one of the standard good quality centerpulls back in the old days. French bikes tended to have one of the Mafac models, another good common centerpull. It was a sort of Chevy/Ford scenario about which was better. Truth be told, they both worked quite well. Dia-Comp was a Weinmann copy. It has been written in BF that various versions of Dia-Comp or Weinmann or Mafac were better than others. I wouldn't know, I never rode with bad ones. Cheap sidepulls back then were the big loser by comparison.

I upgraded to dual pivot brakes on my trek 330, I haven't noticed that big of an improvement but wouldn't go back.

Brake pads my friends. Change the brake pads.

I use DA 7400 series brakes, as well as Campy Records on several bikes.

Even steven performance.

Kool Stops are what they have in common.

Set 'em up right, and they both work fine.

None of them work as well the modern Chorus brakes on my Tommasini though.

....and I do like OFG's comment and suggestion about Campy Skeletons.

I ordered some for my wife's Primato, so she'll be the test pilot. :)

While others have mentioned cables, and housing system, brake pads are the big deal. 30 year old NOS are still 30 years old. Fresh pads are the order, the period correct police aside, keep the old or NOS parts for the shows, of which there are not many so, why the fuss?, for pads, go new and be happy and safe.

I find I can typically tune up an old bike's brakes so that I can skid the rear wheel or stand the bike up on its front wheel by braking a little extra hard just before stopping. The rear catches about a half a foot of air. Steel rims do it just as well as aluminum if they're dry.