Classic & Vintage - Can I see your C&V tandem

My daughter is bugging me to get a tandem and, of course, it would have to be a C&V version. I don't know a lot about tandems and would ride some distances with her including some hill climbs. I've seen a few Gitane tandems (drawn there a little because of the French bikes I already have) but I'd like to see some pics of other C&V tandems to know what's out there. The rear mixte set up seems to be one that would work well with my daughter.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a57/crazy-b/001Large-1.jpg

Burley Duet

163635163636

Sterling(Bilenky)
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/frameteam2003/bilenkytandem-1.jpg

1936 Earnie Ross
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l283/frameteam2003/Russpainted10001-1.jpg

My ol' CCM, it's a double mixtie. Works fairly well for the wife and I:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4651904370_073dd14ece_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4013/4651287631_bf0fb09bd1_b.jpg

My daughter is bugging me to get a tandem and, of course, it would have to be a C&V version. I don't know a lot about tandems and would ride some distances with her including some hill climbs. I've seen a few Gitane tandems (drawn there a little because of the French bikes I already have) but I'd like to see some pics of other C&V tandems to know what's out there. The rear mixte set up seems to be one that would work well with my daughter.

A mixte design on a tandem serves no purpose whatsoever. The already more flexible tandem frame will become even more flexible and there is no need to worry about clearance as the stoker only needs to get on the bike once and don't need to put their feet down at any time whatsoever. In fact, you want your stoker to learn to not put their feet down! I have been riding with my daughters since they were about 4 years old. We got by with a kiddie adapter when they were between 4 and about 11 at which time they should both be able to graduate to an "adult position". They both got a kick out of riding the 5 miles to their school (especially when they could invite along a friend on the triplet.)

That Bob Jackson is remarkable, the curved rear seatpost, short wheelbase, captain's cranks going to the rear wheel... I have never seen one like it. How well does the long drive chain work?

I'd get you a picture of my uncle's Schwinn tandem from the war era, but he has none on the blog. Which sucks.

That Bob Jackson is remarkable, the curved rear seatpost, short wheelbase, captain's cranks going to the rear wheel... I have never seen one like it. How well does the long drive chain work?

Having the drive going to the captain's crank is very functional as the tandem in the case of the Bob Jackson has 120 mm spacing on the rear with very short chainstays. I didn't want to spread the rear to 126 because of the extra stiffness of the extra tubes and the short stays and very steep angle of the stoker seat tube made it very difficult to adjust the front derailleur. I can now use ever cog with all three chainrings in front and can get by with a short cage rear derailleur, I can also shift the front derailleur without needing to rely on the stoker. The only negative is the extra weight of the chain

I have a bunch of those stoker handles that go in the place of the brake levers.

I have one in france, one in england. Both are lower end, 70's, french and blue.

http://www.prettyshady.com/2010/up/DSC_0267.JPG
On this tandem I had to upgrade spokes, rims and brake blocks this winter

http://www.prettyshady.com/2010/up/DSC_0463-1.JPG
I recently brought this tandem on ebay.co.uk, with stronglight cranks and normany red label hubs. My stroker is out of action for the next 9 months so there's plenty of time to work on that bike.

I do love vintage tandems, but I have yet to find a good one that is in my price range!

A mixte design on a tandem serves no purpose whatsoever. The already more flexible tandem frame will become even more flexible and there is no need to worry about clearance as the stoker only needs to get on the bike once and don't need to put their feet down at any time whatsoever. In fact, you want your stoker to learn to not put their feet down! I have been riding with my daughters since they were about 4 years old. We got by with a kiddie adapter when they were between 4 and about 11 at which time they should both be able to graduate to an "adult position". They both got a kick out of riding the 5 miles to their school (especially when they could invite along a friend on the triplet.)

Is this based on pure conjecture? Because I see two problems with your statements.

1: I've always understood that a mixte-style single-person frame ends up stiffer than the equivalent traditional diamond frame. Some combination of having twin stays (lateral triangulation) that go straight to the rear wheel makes for a stiffer frame with weight being the penalty. I have no evidence that this is true for tandems, but I can't imagine that a well-made mixte tandem would be floppy enough to matter in practice. You're not racing the damn thing, you're going out for a ride with your honey.

2: There are reasons to have a step through frame besides standing over the frame. Maybe you're carrying a large rear load that makes it difficult to mount traditionally. Maybe you're just old and stiff and can't mount traditionally. Maybe you're wearing a skirt.

Here's my circa 80 Pug...lousy pics. The problem was the persistent use of steel Rigida rims on a bike that needed the most braking power. The Atom drum brake was feeble at best.
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=163664&d=1281180414
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=163663&d=1281180409

Sold it a few years back and never missed it.

What's C&V to you? A 1972 Bertin? A 1989 Cannondale? I owned a couple of tandems in the 1970s, so let me talk about the tandems of the 60s & 70s..


My daughter is bugging me to get a tandem and, of course, it would have to be a C&V version. I don't know a lot about tandems and would ride some distances with her including some hill climbs.

Oh, and it's not just going to be a wall hanger, you're really going to ride the thing?

Old tandems tended to have flexible frames - and if you've never ridden one, you won't understand. I'm talking about "not holding the front and rear wheels in the same plane" flexible. On a fast down hill curve, I'm talking about scary, snake-track handling. Fred DeLong referred to this as tandem frame "whip" in period writing.

Just slow down for the downhill curves? Ha! You haven't ridden one, have you? Braking was miserable.

Building a stiff frame & fork - even for custom builders - was nigh impossible unless they commissioned proprietary tubing, and very few did. One common technique to compensate was to build the twicer* frame very short. Old tandems tend to have small cockpits for both the steersman* and the crew*, and they're uncomfortable over any distance.

Do you know the "answer verse"?

If you cannot afford a carriage,
There won't be any marriage.
For I'll be d***ed if I'll be jamed
On a bicycle built for two."

Old tandems tended to eat parts. Brake blocks, freewheels, axles, spokes, hubs, rear bottom brackets. Some old tandems have proprietary dimensions and require special parts that haven't been manufactured in years.

When I bought my Santana (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35954664@N08/4019945996/) in 1982 it was a revelation. It was stiff, safe, reliable and comfortable.

Keeping it on the road for 28 years has been much more challenging and required much more effort than my similar aged single bikes. After decades of robust service, I've suffered 3 mechanicals in the last 5 tandem club rides we've taken it on. Welcome to old tandem riding.

I wouldn't suggest anything older than a classic Santana for actual riding. A few other tandems from the 1980s era (barely C&V to me) might be acceptable - look for proprietary, tandem specific oversize frame tubes and forks, longish wheelbases, mountain bike derived components.

HTH,
tcs

*C&V tandem terminology

mine pictured above is for sale...just sayin :)

Is this based on pure conjecture?

No, it's based on about 50 years of collected wisdom in the tandem community.

tcs

Frameteam.
That's a neat Ernie Ross tandem. Is it whippy like the wise men are saying?
Whichever, I'd love to give it a spin.

If you're out for an afternoon ride in the park with your honey who's wearing a skirt you'll not particularly notice tandem frame flex.

If, like the OP, you want to do hill climbs (w/ associated descents) and distance work, you will.

tcs

I was a bit reluctant to chime in because my Santana is not really C & V, but since the discussion has touched on rigidity and Santanas, I'll toss mine into the ring. As much as I'd like a vintage road tandem, I'd rather have the ride of fairly modern unit. This one is from 1992:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_TIeBxBH6dXI/S-jMw3MFKNI/AAAAAAAAAbg/Ixrvw72aCdE/s800/after_01.jpg

Here's a 1970s Jack Taylor tandem that I built up for a friend of mine. For some reason it is still in my possession. Too bad it doesn't fit me.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee161/baxter67/Ironweed%20Bags/P1010076.jpg

My big purple CCM above confirms the typical vintage tandem experience: flexy everything, whipping around corners, poor braking etc.

Luckily that's exactly what I'd expect from a 40 year old bike with massive steel bars, shoddy welds, low-quality tubing, and a dubious braking combo of a rear coaster and a low-quality front caliper. I ride it accordingly (slowly, calmly) and it doesn't disappoint.

No, it's based on about 50 years of collected wisdom in the tandem community.

tcs

Ah, then thank you for addressing my concerns. I can tell you know what you're talking about!

When I bought my Santana (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35954664@N08/4019945996/) in 1982 it was a revelation. It was stiff, safe, reliable and comfortable. Is that your Santana in your link? It looks like it is Reynolds tandem tubing other than possibly the chain stays. It's hard to tell from that photo though.


I don't recall when Reynolds started selling tandem specific tubing, it was a big improvement over what people had been using. I think I built my tandem in about 1980, I was happy that Reynolds had introduced Tandem tubing.

Here's my 86 Santana we bought new, coverted it to 700C last year:

http://images2e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp537%3C9%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A89593532%3Anu0mrj

http://images2e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp537%3B6%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A88737432%3Anu0mrj

http://images2e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp53839%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A89593632%3Anu0mrj

http://images2c.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp538%3A%3B%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A88737632%3Anu0mrj

http://images2e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp53837%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A89593732%3Anu0mrj

http://images2e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp537%3B6%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A88737732%3Anu0mrj

http://images2c.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp538%3B3%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A89593832%3Anu0mrj

http://images2c.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp538%3A%3A%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A88737832%3Anu0mrj

http://images2c.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp538%3A7%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A89593932%3Anu0mrj

http://images2e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp537%3C2%3Enu%3D3275%3E4%3B3%3E733%3EWSNRCG%3D34%3A%3A88737932%3Anu0mrj

My wife and I bought a 1983 Gitane tandem (new) for $350 a week after we were married. I still have it, but it doesn't get ridden much anymore. The frame is whippy, but ridable. The bike came with an interesting mix of tandem-grade and standard components. The fork blades and top tube are oversize diameter; the down tube is standard. It has MAFAC tandem cantilevers operated by a dual-cable lever, and a rear Atom drum brake operated by the other lever. 40-spoke wheels, front and rear laced to MAVIC mod E rims. The rear axle is oversize at 12mm diameter (I had to ream out my Phil freewheel tool to fit); the front is 10mm. Nice Stronglight 99 tandem crank. Simplex 410 rear (since replaced due to spring failure with a Campy Rally). Down tube mounted Simplex friction shift levers, since replaced with Simplex retrofriction levers. Nasty vinyl saddles replaced by Avocet Touring 1 (front) and Brooks B66 (rear). Atom "tandem" freewheel (4 pawls instead of two). Nasty Hutchinson clincher tires that barely lasted 3 weeks. 46cm wide rear handlebar for butt clearance came standard. Stronglight P-3 headset that barely lasted one season; replaced with Stronglight Delta -- still going strong. Not the elite of tandems but the initial $350 we paid was well spent.
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/tandem.jpg

My wife and I bought a 1983 Gitane tandem (new) for $350 a week after we were married. I still have it, but it doesn't get ridden much anymore. The frame is whippy, but ridable. The bike came with an interesting mix of tandem-grade and standard components. The fork blades and top tube are oversize diameter; the down tube is standard. It has MAFAC tandem cantilevers operated by a dual-cable lever, and a rear Atom drum brake operated by the other lever. 40-spoke wheels, front and rear laced to MAVIC mod E rims. The rear axle is oversize at 12mm diameter (I had to ream out my Phil freewheel tool to fit); the front is 10mm. Nice Stronglight 99 tandem crank. Simplex 410 rear (since replaced due to spring failure with a Campy Rally). Down tube mounted S....

that sounds and looks just like the one i have. gitane rallye.

David Newton wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's a neat Ernie Ross tandem. Is it whippy like the wise men are saying?
Whichever

I'm sorry that should have been spelled Ernie Russ.
And no it's not whippy---and it's not fast--at least for me and the wife.
It is made with oversized tubing and lugs.And you will also see it's made like the santana in that it has a cross bar
centered in the frame.Oversized BB and headset too all Chater Lea lugs/BB/and Headset.

The Bilenky Tandem was the first(I'm told) to use an ovaled size tubing beam to make the frame stronger in the side ways direction to correct for movement

Schwinn Town and Country tandems are "real" tandems and worth searching for.
And any tandem--even the cheep cruzer type are fun bikes if used for short rides/rides in the park,or just to a movie.If keepin up with the roades is your thing invest in a new tandem--if you don't mind being left behind to have your own good time , find one in your budget you like.

I've had this Schwinn Twinn for a couple of years, never really sure what to do with it or why I picked it up. Cranks are alloy "Starlight" and the derailuers are Schwinn GT 540's ? Maybe some 700's a couple of nice saddles, upgrade the brakes and add drop bars?
163737

Is that your Santana in your link?

Yes, and the early (1976-1983) classic Santanas were built with proprietary Ishiwata tubing (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35954664@N08/4019945056/in/photostream) that Bill McCready had custom drawn.

The Taylor brothers (Jack, Ken and Norm) famously had Reynolds custom draw heavy wall tubing just for their tandems in the...early 1950s? Tandem legend and lore relates that Jack Taylors sold their first tandem into America to a young couple from Northern California in 1956.

Best,
tcs

I've wanted a tandem for a long time. I hope I can afford one, one day. My Lovely Wife™ is not convinced we'd ride it much. I want to try one with her for a few rides.

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/tandem.jpg

Took me a couple of seconds to realize that the bike is hanging from the ceiling, but why isn't the camera's date stamp inverted?

Took me a couple of seconds to realize that the bike is hanging from the ceiling, but why isn't the camera's date stamp inverted?
not if he held the camera up side down.

Noglider, if you want to true the wheels and adjust the brakes, you can borrow mine. It would be a tough ride from my place to yours so I think you will need a pick-up or van to transport it.

We bought our Gitane Tandem Sport in '72 and it was fairly well-used at the time so I'm guessing that it was a mid-60s bike. The picture below is from a ride earlier today when it was borrowed by a friend who wanted to try out a tandem to see if he and his SO would like it.

163758

I have a Counterpoint Opus II that dates to 1984. Here's a photo
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2859636960_8993d5c7ba.jpg?v=0

Anyway, the crew sits in front, in recumbent position; the captain sits in back, in traditional bicyclist position. This has various advantages; it's more fun for the stoker, who has an unencumbered view, comfortable seating, and hands free; the captain can see right over the stoker's head. Since they sit pretty close together, they can converse pretty well. I've ridden it somewhere around 1700 miles, mostly touring with my daughter who's 11.

It's a heavy bike, but it does not have any of the problems mentioned in this thread-- it's not whippy, and has held up well. Phil Wood hubs, 48 H Weinmann concave rim....

1987 Holdsworth Gemini
Restoration in progress
Pink was the only color shown in catalog

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4550836452_7832ca8694_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4550201583_d08f3680d7_b.jpg

I haven't worked on this, or ridden it in ages, since it's stored in my parent's garage:

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/GEDC0230.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/GEDC0227.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/GEDC0229.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/GEDC0228.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/GEDC0226.jpg
http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/GEDC0225.jpg

I read that for every 1000 bikes sold in the USA, one will be a tandem.

scozim, if we haven't scared you off your quest to put a C&V tandem back in harness (and I hope not), other C&V tandems to look for/at include:

The Schwinn Parmount, which was available equipped for either racing or touring with either a dual top bar or mixtie back frame and either a straight or curved (even shorter wheelbase) rear seat tube. I'm surprised no one has posted pics of their old Paramount tandem yet.

The Schwinn Twinn Sport, an electroforged "Continental tandem" with classic ten-speed gearing.

And the Schwinn Town and Country, for my money the ne plus ultra going-for-a-ride-in-the-park tandem.

tcs

I haven't worked on this, or ridden it in ages, since it's stored in my parent's garage:
http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/GEDC0226.jpg

WOW, three seat hand brazed Schwinn T&C! What's the story behind it? Are there chainguards for the other chains?

I read that for every 1000 bikes sold in the USA, one will be a tandem.

scozim, if we haven't scared you off your quest to put a C&V tandem back in harness (and I hope not), other C&V tandems to look for/at include:

tcs


Not scared at all. In fact, if anything, even more intrigued. There are some fantastic looking bikes posted here. We were heading to Seattle yesterday and going east (the other direction) were riders for the Courage Classic. My daughter saw her friend (12 yo) and dad on their tandem and thought said again how much fun she thought that would be.

The posts have been great and informative. I'll keep doing research and putting pennies in the tandem fund so one day (hopefully sooner than later) I'll have one in the stable that she can ride with me . I've got a friend in town who rides a Rodriguez custom tandem with his wife and they absolutely love it. However, that's a little out of my buget.

There is a story behind it...

My family was driving to breakfast and my sister noticed a tandem sitting out near some garbage. I looked and saw three seats...my father said no way...it was two and you miscounted. We argued about it and decided to go back and look to settle the debate. It was a three seater and my father and I looked at each other (I was 12) and said "oh yeah". We walked it home and cleaned it up a lot...but found getting parts for it was a BEEE-YOTCH. This was in the days of yellow pages and long distance phone charges. No ebay or CL. We took it to a local shop called Keswick and the owner offered me $200 for it. I figured if he was offering a dumb kid $200 for it, it must be worth money and said no thanks (that was passing up on a LOT of candy, video games and transformers in those days).

We ended up talking to everyone we could find about it, including one of the Schwinns...it was nearly impossible to get parts for. Finally we learned about Via...and Curtis put us in touch with someone he had sold a similar bike to. That gentlemen had discarded the original parts and modernized it...he gladly gave us many of the original bits and pieces for free. My dad decided not to take the chain guards at the time because he thought they were heavy. We didn't know what we were doing and made a mistake. Anyway...we fixed it up...got it riding, and had a blast with it. I left for College and the bike got hung on hooks and wasn't used again. I'm giving it to my brother in law on long term loan and hopefully he'll restore it to its former glory.

Our 80's Schwinn Duo Sport
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/toytechthefirst/tandem001.jpg

Andrew F, I'd like to take you up on that offer.

And Aaron, now that I've finally seen your triple, it's much nicer than I pictured it. Is it really that hard to fix up? I have a picture in my head of you and I and someone else -- maybe your brother? -- riding around on it, at 32 mph on flat ground.

Tom...it wouldn't be that hard. It needs a thorough cleaning, some rust removal...lubrication...wheels trued...brake cables/housings changed. It could probably use the bearings repacked as well. It's a few weeks of work, it;s just at my parents so it's very difficult to access. The only tricky part to it is the drum brakes...which, if I recall, are asbesthos lined.

I've wanted a tandem for a long time. I hope I can afford one, one day. My Lovely Wife™ is not convinced we'd ride it much. I want to try one with her for a few rides.

You can borrow one of mine if you come and pick it up and return it in Moorestown, NJ. No need to do any work on it ;-)

Heres my 1948.It is probably 80 lbs and with the balloon tires it wears ya out quickly
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii125/vincev_2008/non%20road%20bike%20collectables/schwinn1948.jpg

You can borrow one of mine if you come and pick it up and return it in Moorestown, NJ. No need to do any work on it ;-)

Really?! Careful there, because you might just get a call from me. And thank you!

Really?! Careful there, because you might just get a call from me. And thank you!

Either tandem or the triplet is ok. The one tandem has the long rear cockpit and handles like a truck, the other is real short in the back and rides like a dream (whether you ride in teh front or in the back). The triplet with both rear positions really short actually outhandles the tandem with the long rear cockpit.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IHDfc_MWe84/Tf0jnubjCfI/AAAAAAAAFlU/xxV0K-eRmro/s800/SAM_0781.JPG
Partially assembled after unpacking it from shipping. Has a porteur rack and rear rack, sprung leather saddles and various other bits and bobs to be re-attached.

It's 650b, french and from the mid 1950s at the latest as it has a Super Champion derailluer.

It should be fun once it's been cleaned, lubed and reassembled.