General Cycling Discussion - Freds

Once in a while I stumble over the expression "Fred".
Its meaning however kind of confuses me.
I suppose it isn't a privilege to be one? What "qualities" does one require to be a "Fred"?
Is somebody who wears jeans, riding his bicycle
a Fred? I do, sometimes, does that mean...? :D
What's a good example of a Fred? Can a Fred be a good person? Are there Freds under the pros?
Thanks for helping me out here!

Fred is a common term of disapprobation used by roadies. It has two meanings, which can ame it a bit confusing.

1. The original meaning: Someone [usually a man] who rides a bike not for sport, fitness, commuting or pleasure, but as a kind of anti-capitalist, environmental statement. Roughly, he's a hippie on two wheels -- wears jeans and sandals, rides a beat-up, rusted mid-70s utility bike [often a woman's frame] less out of necessity than principal. Freds are often university professors, community radio volunteers or health food store owners. You see them a lot at critical mass protests. They're not commuters because they don't usually go very far and tend to live and work in the same neighbourhood. They do little to maintain their bikes and think that sport or fitness cyclists are capitalist poseurs. Fred from Fred Flintstone [because they're cave men], the female is Wilma.

2. A sometimes more common definition: A poseur. The guy with a lot more money than brains. This is the guy who spends $6,000 on the latest high-tech bike, $1,000 on matching team strip, $400 on the coolest shoes and doesn't know how to fix a flat. These Freds will often go for 20-40 km ride a couple of times a week. They know nothing about ride etiquette or the lore and traditions of the cycling community. You can call them Fred and they'll say "no, my name's Jerry [or whatever]." Some of them have never actually seen an allen key and wouldn't know what to do with one if they saw it. They are often men in their 40s with a great deal of disposable income. Wilmas of this type are, sor some reason, exceedingly rare.

I don't actually LIKE the term "Fred," and I find it a little velosnobbish. I do have some respect for type-1 riders, though I have come across a couple who are willfull and sanctimonious and whom I would generally class as "freds" because I don't like them personally. And there is a bike shop near me that specializes in used Fred bikes that I [and others] call the Fred shop.

On the other hand, I have been known to refer to the type-2 guys as Freds wuite liberally -- not because they're so bad or because they like to burn money, but because I find some of them to be dangerous and irritating riders. [I'll relate the Festina Boy story some time.]

Sometimes, the type 1's are spelled "Phreds".
BTW, when riding my touring bike, I usually do wear jeans!

Originally posted by velocipedio
Fred is a common term of disapprobation used by roadies...........Freds are often university professors.......


what's your profession velocipedio?


cabledonut.

Originally posted by D*Alex
Sometimes, the type 1's are spelled "Phreds."

I am sure the real Fredericks, Friedrichs, Alfreds, etc. out there would appreciate the distinction.

As an undergrad, I adopted the Type 1 Phred image by wearing a T-shirt, walk shorts, and tennis shoes, while commuting on a succession of theft-resistant old beater bikes. On weekends, I enjoyed passing the Masi-riding Type 2 Freds on Highway 101.

Hey V,

You forgot to add "uses a clip-on mirror on his handlebar or helmet" to your list. Hell, while I'm at it, add uses the nut on the stem of the inner tube and/or reflectors on the spokes.

I feel quite fortunate that I've never ever heard anybody use this word in any context except as a guys name. How long has this particular definition been around?

velocipedio, I'm really impressed with your extensive knowledge about the freds. There seem to be quite a few.
So being a Fred is not necessarily bad. I think I even kinda like the type 1 Freds, they seem to be of the peaceful kind. I myself don't qualify for eighter type anyway. Type one is too smart and type 2 has too much money.
Marco Pantoni might be of type 2 ?

Originally posted by green lion
So being a Fred is not necessarily bad

I think it depends on the crowd you ride with. I'd take a fred over a poseur any day.

But then, I ride with a mirror on my glasses.:eek:

"Fred" is just one of those words that one scene uses to describe another. I don't have anything against type-1 Freds [good catch on the professor thing, cabledonut, I was wondering if anyone would pick up on it], and I admire that kind of cyclist's devotion to cycling. I don't think I've ever actually called a Fred a Fred, in fact, though i have referred to the "Fred store." The way I look at it, anyone who rides a bike -- Fred, dirtbag, whatever -- is okay by me.

On the other hand, I do know of at lest one Fred whose utter disdain for anyone who didn't share his velo-philosophy or who took cycling as a SPORT seriously really rubbed me the wrong way. And there's a guy who runs a local wrench shop -- a Fred shop as well, I guess -- who categorically refuses to serve or even civilly address anyone wearing lycra shorts. So, I guess it goes both ways.

As for the type-2 Freds, I look at it this way: these guys essentially subsidize the bicycle retail industry. If some guy wants to drop $6000 on a bike and the sale keeps my LBS in the black, then that's great.

The term, by the way, has been around as long as I've been cycling. There is no French equivalent, so I suspect it's an Americanism.

It's most often heard in contexts like: "Don't be such a Fred."

velocipedio is right on target. "we" bike shops love the type-2 freds! fixing flats has one of the biggest profit margins. these guys also tend to buy the really high-end clothing.

the best part, as a poor shop rat, is that they tend to leave their "cast-offs" behind as they continually upgrade. latest score? dura ace crankset. yeahhh baby!

:beer:

here's to the freds!
p.s. in the shops they are referred to as "enthusiasts"

Originally posted by Bobsled
Hey V,
You forgot to add "uses a clip-on mirror on his handlebar or helmet" to your list.
Bobsled, my commuter has a mirror on the handlebar and both helmets (one for commuting with lots of reflective tape, one for road riding) have a mirror attached. I want to see who or what is behind me whether I'm on my Raleigh commuter or my Litespeed.

Mirrors don't make you a "Fred". They are for safety!

Probably everybody here has a little Fred in him on one extreme other the other.

Whether it is using a bike mirror, or buying a high-end pair of tights you won't wear, or being a bit overzealot when it comes to talking about the benefits of bicycling for the environment.

Don't sweat it.

Fred's too are welcome in my circle.

Would Armstrong be considered a Fred (temporary of course) when going to the convenience store on his wifes bike, wearing flip-flops?

Moot question, he wouldn't do that. His wife's bike probably wouldn't fit him and he wouldn't wear flipflops on a bike. What if someone recognized him? He wouldn't risk it.

Originally posted by green lion
Would Armstrong be considered a Fred (temporary of course) when going to the convenience store on his wifes bike, wearing flip-flops?

Hmm… Hard to say. But if he wore lipstick and a brassiere, we could call him Betty.

The bike-snobs probably call me Fred.

I ride a hybrid with a bell, handlebar bag, rear rack, and kickstand. Sometimes I even put on fenders. I have been known to ride no-hands while eating an ice cream cone. Hot shot roadies yell "On your left!!" as they blow by at 20 m.p.h. I always wave, smile and say "hello" to pedestrians and other cyclists. I carry groceries in panniers. I often strap books or pizza (or both) to the rear rack. Once I brought home a new Hewlett-Packard printer strapped to the rear rack - the thing was so huge that tourists looked and pointed as I rode down the main drag in Branson, MO.

I don't care about the lastest "gotta-have" high tech equipment unless it happens to be something really, truely useful. Hydration packs fall into that category. So do bar ends. Aero bars and three-hundred dollar helmets that have more holes than helmet don't.

If I am going to the grocery or post office I will most likely wear a t-shirt and denim shorts, but if I'm riding for fun (usually 30+ miles) I will wear lycra shorts and a jersey (but never with sponsor logos, those are for the snobs).

You might think I'm a Fred. You can even call me that if you want. I don't care because I'm having too much fun to stop now :-)

:beer: i'll drink to that. I always find it kind of interesting how human beings find it so hard to look at something for more than 20 minutes without labeling it.

we could call him Betty
:roflmao:
Preferably from a safe distance, and maybe quietly behind his back. Even in drag he could kick my arse.

I get called a Fred from time to time, I ride for pleasure as well as for practical reasons. I have a bike for nearly every occasion and four of them are bonafide racing bikes (a crit bike, a TT bike, a CC mountain bike and a road racing bike) I also have a designated commuter that gets me around town just fine. Thing is that some of the other guys I ride with seem to think driving to work is inherantly better. Whatever...

I do get the little Fred marks on my calf from greasy chainrings at races and some guys think this is a big NO-NO. I really don't care if I get a little grease on the calf, but I do know that my bike is running better than most of theirs because I'm the guy that trues his own wheels.

A mirror does not a Fred make. I resisted using a mirror at first, but found that having one is essential, at least for me. When I am riding alone, I can get along without one, but found that I like having one on group rides, especially when riding in a paceline. When leading, it is difficult and dangerous to look back over my shoulder, especially when sliding off to the left to drop to the back of the line. When riding at the back of the line, it makes it much easier to watch for overtaking cars. There is so little margin for error in a paceline that a moments inattention can lead to a crash. I will keep my mirror, thank you.

Felix, if you have all those other bikes you are not a Fred- having one beater to get aruond does not a Fred create. NOw if that was your only bike, that would be another story.

I see quite a few Freds around my neighborhood. Usually older hippie types. There's one just down the street but he actually seems to be fairly fit, more of a commuter, and even uses his bike in cold snowy weather, so although he's not a roadie, he's not quite a fred. WHen I think of Freds, I think more of the hippy-dippy types with really beat up old bikes. There's a bike shop near here that I call The Hippydippy bike shop, I think it's called "the Lazy Walker" that attracts the bell-and-basket crowd, but it's a community type place and does some good. It's not like I'd entrust my bike to that place but it has its purpose, so that's all well and good.

I never think of type 1 (like Wabbit just described) as Fred. To me, Freds are the posers (type 2), the guys with neon clothes and racing bikes that get ridden maybe 10 miles a week. Neither kind bother me at all.

I respect type 1's because they have a belief and the grits to stick it out. I also like type 2 because they subsidize the local bike shop (I think someone else said that as well).

The only cyclists I don't like are the snobs, the guys who shun me because I'm not a "real" cyclist like them.

The only cyclists I don't like are the snobs, the guys who shun me because I'm not a "real" cyclist like them.


That's kind of ironic. What makes these guys "real" cyclists, leg shaving? Unless you are in THE peleton getting paid to ride with free bikes and gear you are a cyclist like the rest of us. Why is cycling so full of snobs? Some of us ride slow, some of us ride fast, some of us do centuries regularly, some of us have never ridden one. No matter what type of riding you do, at least you are out there enjoying the world and getting fit, not watching TV all weekend, every weekend.

I was getting ready for a ride with my brother, and he was wearing a new US Postal outfit, and he commented that no-one would expect to get passed by someone like me because I looked like Mr. Plod (slow), because my outfit is a standard non team kit from any LBS. Just because you have the clothes it doesn't mean your any good. I don't need a US Postal outfit to ride fast, although they do look very nice. :)

I have seen countless guys struggling up my road with the full kit, shaved legs and Colnago bikes, it doesn't seem to be helping them get up the hills.

Wear what you want, ride what you want, and leave other people alone.

CHEERS.

Mark

Originally posted by cycletourist
I ride a hybrid with a bell, handlebar bag, rear rack, and kickstand. Sometimes I even put on fenders. I have been known to ride no-hands while eating an ice cream cone...I always wave, smile and say "hello" to pedestrians and other cyclists.
Hiya, Fred! ;)

It's your old pal, Barnie! Whaddya say we bike over to the bowling alley (leave the girls at home!)

:beer:

You're on, LittleBigMan !!

P.S. Are Stone Mountain the city and Stone Mountain the theme park the same thing?

The guy who owns the theme park (Pete Hershend) also owns Silver Dollar City (a theme park here in Branson). He rides the MS150 every year and is one of their largest fundraisers.

Viva la difference...

I suppose the type-1 Freds who tick me off -- the ones I really think of as Freds -- are the reverse snobs. You know, the ones who look down on roadies and racers and dirtbags, who see everyone outise of the bell-and-basket set [thanks Wabbit!] as being poseurs. They're the ones who yess "hey, slow down, enjoy the view" when you're out on a training ride on the Lakeshore road.

The great thing about cycling is that it's an activity that encompass all kinds of philosophies and worldviews, from the most V02max-obsessed racer to the guy in sandals with a re-painted CCM Targa at a Crtitical Mass demo. There's room for guys like D*Alex, Wabbit and me, and for LBM and Cycletourist. We probably won't be on a lot of rides together, but that's cool.

The bottom line is that a self-righteous Fred is no better than an obnoxious velosnob.

[And yes, I get cheesed when a Fred does everything in his power to keep me from passing -- including putting my life at risk. It has happened.]

Originally posted by cycletourist
The guy who owns the theme park (Pete Hershend) also owns Silver Dollar City (a theme park here in Branson). He rides the MS150 every year and is one of their largest fundraisers.
Now that's interesting! I think I remember hearing about that once before.

Stone Mountain Park is adjacent to the City of Stone Mountain. Bikes enter free, cars must pay! :cry: ;) ) A good place to tackle a few small hills and some nice scenery, to be sure!

:)

Guess I'm rally a Fred because I thought Fred referred specifically to a new racer, one not used to group riding and therefore potentially dangerous.

My commuter has all the dorky (Freddish?) bags, lights, reflectors, mirrors, etc., that keep me alive on morning commutes in the dark. I do wear some old (minor) pro team kit because 1. it's comfortable and 2. I got a bunch of pro-quality bibs and jerseys from a guy who had too many and was selling them for 10 bucks each. I'm about to fork over a bunch of bucks for a pair of the best Pearl Izumi bibs. Why? 1. I need a pair of basic black. 2. I prefer bibs. 3. I want something that will last a long time. Can't accuse me of riding an expensive bike, though. Now I do prefer Dura Ace and will buy nothing less from now on. I have 105 on my commuter. When I needed another set of shifters for another bike, I was able to pick up some DA on sale at a very reasonable price. The shifting was so much smoother and crisper I decided they would be worth the money anytime I needed a new group.

Whatever.

Reminds me of one of my favorire stories. Check it out, and see if you can pick the Fred:

http://www.cyclingutah.com/oct/oct99/fast.html


Have you noticed that Freddism is based on perspective? A cyclist on a $4000 bike is more likeley to call the hippie a Fred and vice versa.

BTW, for the record, I'm not a Fred. I'm a geek.

Originally posted by stumpjumper
Reminds me of one of my favorire stories. Check it out, and see if you can pick the Fred:



http://www.cyclingutah.com/oct/oct99/fast.html



Have you noticed that Freddism is based on perspective? A cyclist on a $4000 bike is more likeley to call the hippie a Fred and vice versa.



BTW, for the record, I'm not a Fred. I'm a geek.

Great story. But what does eating the heads off of live chickens have to do with cycling? A new source of carbos?

Uh, you must have clicked on the other link...

Originally posted by stumpjumper
Uh, you must have clicked on the other link...

A geek, in ancient and noble times, was somebody who bit the heads off of live chickens; kind of a circus sideshow freak.

I knew that. ;)

I'm operating at half-speed today.

Originally posted by Dutchy



I was getting ready for a ride with my brother, and he was wearing a new US Postal outfit, and he commented that no-one would expect to get passed by someone like me because I looked like Mr. Plod (slow), because my outfit is a standard non team kit from any LBS. Just because you have the clothes it doesn't mean your any good. I don't need a US Postal outfit to ride fast, although they do look very nice. :)


Mark

This anecdote reminds me of another, which isn't really about freds. Last summer, my cycling buddy and I were stopped at a rest stop on a local bike path. Just as I was about to head into the head, a trio of roadies went by, one of them sporting an Italian champ jersey. They certainly weren't freds. When I came out and we got back on the path and headed opff, and I caught sight of the trio up ahead! I was surprised because I assumed they'd be long gone, and I realized that they were going the same speed as I (about 30K as I recall), because I had them in my sights the whole way. Eventually they turned off in another direction, but I was rather surprised they weren't going faster, especially the Italian Champ guy. You sort of expect someone wearing the italian champ jersey to be going a lot faster. It may have been the end of their ride, of course, because it was kind of late in the day. That's why I wouldn't wear any national champ jersey- you sort of have to live up to it. National team jerseys are different- I'd wear the Polish team jersey or russian team jersey out of ethnic pride. No one is going to think I'm on the polish or russian team.

Originally posted by stumpjumper
Reminds me of one of my favorire stories. Check it out, and see if you can pick the Fred:

http://www.cyclingutah.com/oct/oct99/fast.html


How cool is that?! That Fred (um, the one on the Huffy, not the ride captain) is my hero.

Back in the day, Huffy was a sponsor of Team 7-11... the first US team to break into European cycling in a big way.

They rode...
Serrota's painted as Huffys.

Originally posted by wabbit


You sort of expect someone wearing the italian champ jersey to be going a lot faster

That's why all my jerseys have beer motifs.

That's why all my jerseys have beer motifs.

I must say, you are a god, mike.

Originally posted by mike




That's why all my jerseys have beer motifs.

Where I can I get an Arrogant Bastard jersey?!? :D

I've always thought that Freds were any biker who didn't care about what they looked like. It helps to have as many acoutrements on the bike as possible. I see commuter Freds, but I also think of many tourers as them. This is due to personal contact, and with the Phred.com website. The best Freds I've seen were on RAGBRAI--the bike tour across Iowa. These are the people with streamers on their handlebars, and teddy bears strapped to the front, giant mudflaps, beer cooler on their backrack, shnapps in the water bottle etc. Most of them seem to be well muscled tourers. One Fred I knew would bike with ALL of his gear from the Mississippi to the Missouri River, and then follow RAGBRAI back to the Mississippi. He also strapped his guitar on for nightly entertainment. He put a pillow on his seat and had a huge amount of foam pading on his drops. In town he road an old cruiser with Wald baskets while wearing big work boots.

Another Fred I saw on RAGBRAI rode what appeared to be the kind of bike I had as a kid in the '70's. It had chopper bars, probably originally had a banana seat, and chrome fenders. He had raised the seat and bars up to adult height and had front and rear panniers loaded with all his gear--no sag wagon for him. I heard he rides the whole tour that way. It's almost a contest to be as ridiculous as possible--but these are serious riders.

The whole Fred thing remids me of the movie Quadrophenia and the battle between the Rockers and the Mods. The tough guys rode cool motorcycles, and the Mods rode around on scooters with ten reflectors, too much chrome, streamers, everything. They got beat up by the Rockers. But I always related to them better. I only wish I could be a Fred.

QUOTE]Where I can I get an Arrogant Bastard jersey?!? [/QUOTE]

I just checked Stone Brewings site- they dont make em anymore, do they?[

Hey guys, thanks for so many replies. I'm learning a lot here! And I thought there was no way I could qualify to be a Fred. After reading all this, I must admit I do show some symptoms.(although not the type one or two symptoms). :D

Wow, I must say there is a lot I still have to learn about cycling culture, just as I finished reading this thread...

I have never been on group rides and I'm pretty knew to the cycling scene. I usually ride more than 100km per week (on my crappy *** all terrain) over pretty gruesome hills, but I'm still inexpereinced in my own eyes and I'm sure in eyes of many others.

I've saved up all the money I could and I was planning to buy a nice entry level roadie with all the proper attire as a little cheer me up for all the hours I spent studying this semester instead of biking.

Now I'm scared damn it!
Will ya'all be calling me a Fred when you pass me on the road side? :rolleyes:

Geez! Chill out guys! The whole "Fred" thing is WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY overplayed. To tell the truth, nobody really notices much as from whether you're a roadie or a dirtbag -- and most people are both. Cycling culture has its traditions and stuff, but no ine takes that part of it too seriously. The one who do are Freds. [Type 3?]. :)

Well...wonder if I'm a "fred" ....started riding again a little over a year ago on a borrowed, real old Raliegh. Got in a little better shape, rode a metric and got hooked. Bought shoes, pedals, a pump, two pairs of shorts and one pair of tights and a few jerseys (definitely not national, mostly beer motifs). Decided I was loving this. Found the Raliegh had a cracked frame (Thank God! I really wanted a triple) and three weeks ago bought a......drum roll please......Klein Quantum Race! More bike than I need? Maybe...I'm doing the MS 150 in three weeks and intend to do centuries as often as I can. I bought a helmet that matched the bike a few weeks before the bike and ordered shoes to match today. I love to ride. I love the people I get to hang with when riding. I love learning the etiquete, traditions, pacelines etc. I love talking about the ride when it's over and incredible endorphine rush I get for the rest of the day.

I am however still just a somewhat chubby 35 year old guy who will never be a racer and still can't do all the maintnance. So....am I a Fred? If you ride, are polite, can teach me something etc. you are o.k. with me.:beer:

Wow, I'm confused. Depending on which page and post you look at, FREDs seem to include just about anyone. I agree with Velocipedio (did i spell that right?). I have not encountered much Fredism up here in MB. What I have encountered (and find hilarious) is bike-envy from my non-biker co-workers. Took me a while to realize this as a newbie. You should have seen their reactions when I told them they were just jealous. Deny, deny. deny. Now I only give them a big grin when they comment. Drives 'em bananas!!!

I was talking about this to my brother the roadie yesterday. Apparently the term in use here, and he thinks this is just local to Brisbane, is 'Hubbard'. I'm still trying to find out the origins of this term, but he suspected it was named after a local school for ******** children, also called Hubbards.

So, if anyone calls you a 'Fred', just call them a 'Hubbard' in return. They won't even know they've been derided.

I'm going to get 'Hubbard' embroidered onto the black dress socks I use for riding.

I'VE FINALLY GOT IT! "Freds" are other bikers who I label, "Fred," so I don't confuse them with myself, since I am clearly different in so many wonderful ways!

:beer:

You're a genious, LittleBigMan !

Originally posted by LittleBigMan
I'VE FINALLY GOT IT! "Freds" are other bikers who I label, "Fred," so I don't confuse them with myself, since I am clearly different in so many wonderful ways!

:beer:

hmmm.......LittleBigMan, with all respect...., but.... is the resemblance so close that you have to label them? :D :)