Classic & Vintage - Ebay Mystery frame arrived - detailed photos - any ideas?

I found this on ebay for a price that I couldn't resist. I didn't know much about it but it looked nice enough and the fastback seat stays sealed the deal.

Here is the backstory written by the seller from the ebay Q&A section:

Dear sandranian, Interesting observation and i am going to post this so everyone can see it. my Husband (who ran the junior program at the time this was donated) got it from a mechanic in Chicago. The mechanic said that it was brought to Chicago by Laurent Fignon to use as a training bike and Fignon left it behind because he didn't want to bother taking it back. It had Gitane decals correct for the era as well as R 531C decals (in French), but the decals were pretty well torn up by the time it was donated and they were removed with acetone. The bike was equipped with Mavic cranks--the kind like Campy NR/SR (not the Starfish kind), Campy SR derailleurs, Simplex retrofriction shifters, and Mavic badged Modolo brakes. (also a very strange Simplex seatpost). i suppose it could have been built by someone else and dressed up like a Gitane, or have been built by a private builder and badged Gitane. All i know about the frameset is what my Husband and i have been told. It is a nice bike in any event. - ks2002ks

The frame has some details that may help pin it down, it definitely does not look like a Gitane.

- 27.2 seat post
- English BB fits
- Supposedly Reynolds tubing
- It has a thick downtube, much more than my 531 bikes

Sloping Luged fork crown:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4134/4869010519_9b9e1d8b6b_b.jpg

Fast back seat stays:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4869011033_94ab381e1a_z.jpg

Vertical dropouts "BREVETT DEP"
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4869011961_584d424047_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4123/4869012673_456b8aa5a4_b.jpg

"W" cutout in the bottom bracket
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4143/4869627520_44e7911e50_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4115/4869627964_28f9f224b6_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4869628418_8916645abc_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4074/4869014737_f9e6d3b403_b.jpg

Downtube shifter bosses, and brazed on tab for the front derailleur
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4869015633_1e54005b4f_b.jpg

Pump peg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4869629360_2b041ed844_z.jpg

Marinoni?? (BTW, that is a 'lugged' steel frame, not one that has been run down an icy slope on a small sled)

Weigle? nice looking I do like that fork crown wether it is lugged or luged

Oops, *lugged*

It didn't look like a Marinoni to me but I am not familiar with them.

The paint on that bike does not look like the same shade of blue that Gitane used in the 80's. From what I see on the pics, the paintjob actually look very fresh and could already be a re-paint and it looks like they did a good job at it. Just a bit of polishing should bring out some depth and luster to that paint. The mysterious paint color just deepens the mystery on what the frame really is. I agree with BG that the letter in the BB shell looks more like a "W". It cergtainly a mid 60's to early 90's frame with the very vertical rear dropout configuration.
That's a very beautiful frame and you made a good decision to go ahead and get it! Congratulations on the fantastic find!

Chombi

What about the top tube? Is it equally oversized? The frame might be Columbus EL-OS. Regardless, the simple presence of that oversized downtube already points to a mid-1990's frame.

That said, if the fork is original, the fork crown dates from the same era as well. Seems to add up that this is an early-to-mid 1990's frameset.

-Kurt

I took some measurements with my cheapie tool, so they are approximate.

Mystery frame:

Top tube thickness 25.7
Downtube thickness 31.8



1978 Raleigh Professional:

Top tube thickness 25.6
Downtube thickness 28.9

Weigle?Look at a Weigle if you ever get a chance, they are head and shoulders above this frame.

I don't recognize the lugs, but otherwise all the parts on the OP frame are currently available. Fastback stays missing the seat lug is not a good design feature, watch for cracking.

Mystery frame:
Top tube thickness 25.7
Downtube thickness 31.8

1978 Raleigh Professional:

Top tube thickness 25.6
Downtube thickness 28.9

Interesting. Oversized downtube, yet, a normal top tube. Sounds like a special build.

Don Mainland did something to that extent on some of the Olympic Paramounts in the early '70s - they had Ishiwata produce an oversized top tube, and Nervex made a small run of oversized lugs to go with it.

-Kurt

[QUOTE=Bianchigirll;11250090]Weigle? /QUOTE]

Surely you are joking.

Colin Laing, a native Brit, building in Mesa, AZ built a racing bike for Laurent.
Colin was/is a well respected builder that built 'brown wrapper' frames for quite a few international racers.
Possibly one of his . . .

I was on a group ride this evening, and one person was on his J.P. Weigle. Matt's mystery frame looks nice, but it sure 'ain't no Weigle.

Neal

Oops, *lugged*

It didn't look like a Marinoni to me but I am not familiar with them.
That's a W, not an M.

The fork crown matches the crown on my Gios, from 1991. The rear brake bridge can be seen on a bianchi that I loaned someone and can't seem to get back. I'm not suggesting that either marque is this bike, just that the parts are sort of Italian. What bottom bracket size?

Oh, I see that information in the original post. Nice cat, btw.

That's a W, not an M.

Yes, I know. Refer to my unedited original post where I called it a "W".

I was on a group ride this evening, and one person was on his J.P. Weigle. Matt's mystery frame looks nice, but it sure 'ain't no Weigle.

Neal

Right, I think it's nice but I never claimed it was anything ultra special. The Melton I owned looked nicer to me that this frame. The seller had a Melton on ebay at the same time, I TRIED to win that one but got this instead.

Too new for my knowledge base, but looks production, not custom.

Woodrup?

I can't hazard a guess as to what "M/W" builder made this, but I'm curious about what brand those vertical dropouts are: they just say "Patented" in French (I think) but don't look like anything I'm familiar with...certainly not like my (much earlier) Campag vertical DOs.
Simplex? Huret? Gipiemme? what...

I can't hazard a guess as to what "M/W" builder made this, but I'm curious about what brand those vertical dropouts are: they just say "Patented" in French (I think) but don't look like anything I'm familiar with...certainly not like my (much earlier) Campag vertical DOs.
Simplex? Huret? Gipiemme? what...

Yeah, I was hoping someone might know about those. The way they attach to the frame looks strange to me.

Yeah, I was hoping someone might know about those. The way they attach to the frame looks strange to me.

Quite possibly MTB dropouts. The builder might have chosen those for convenience of sourcing a set of vertical drops.

-Kurt

Maybe I should post a picture of the dropouts in the frame builder forum?

Maybe I should post a picture of the dropouts in the frame builder forum?

Can't hurt, though the last time I posted, I got the impression that the pack leader around there doesn't care much about C&V or mutt frames.

-Kurt

It's interesting that such short slot dropouts would still have provision for adjusters. IIRC, the dropouts on my Vitus Carbone are similarly vertical, but they do not have adjusters like this one.

Chombi

It's interesting that such short slot dropouts would still have provision for adjusters. IIRC, the dropouts on my Vitus Carbone are similarly vertical, but they do not have adjusters like this one.

Chombi

I had a 2000 - 2001 Pinarello with the same features - semi-vertical dropouts and adjusters.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/jd6572/bikes/Pinarello_Surprise-1.jpg

It's interesting that such short slot dropouts would still have provision for adjusters. IIRC, the dropouts on my Vitus Carbone are similarly vertical, but they do not have adjusters like this one.

I've seen it before on vertical drops - both road and the better '90s steel MTB frames.

Ebisu All Around:
http://www.jitensha.com/eng/images/ebisupics/medium/010-rear-dropout.jpg

Cinelli Super Corsa:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2642/3722839138_f4bd424977.jpg

Massi:
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2009/09/massi-2.jpg

Bertin:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4464416714_f66ffd8593.jpg

-Kurt

I thought the adjuster was odd, I probably won't put any in there. Maybe it's better that this frame isn't identified, I am planning on using my ho-hum parts to build it with. I checked and could not find any identifying numbers on it anywhere.

I checked and could not find any identifying numbers on it anywhere.

Not even two digits denoting frame size? Interesting.

-Kurt

Can't hurt, though the last time I posted, I got the impression that the pack leader around there doesn't care much about C&V or mutt frames.

-KurtI'm not the pack leader there? The truth is that you'll almost surely attract the same crew there as you will here.

They look like the ones that Bringheli sells as "Walter" brand dropouts. I have one in my collection of mismatched dropouts. Turns out the spare one I have is identical to yours, but you'll just have to take my word for it because the camera battery died. I always thought the adjusters were funny too.

I'm not the pack leader there?

I won't name names, but there's someone else there who thinks he is. Five bucks says he'll preemptively flip out at me before I even make any half-definite reference to him.
-Kurt

Fastback stays missing the seat lug is not a good design feature, watch for cracking.

I didn't see this comment before. I guess I can see what that would be a problem and I will definitely take your word for it. I only knew that was the area for a signature because it was a low stress point. So I suppose it would be the brass or silver that breaks free from the seat tube?

Too new for my knowledge base, but looks production, not custom.

I am assuming it looks production based on the level of execution? I'm just curious what gives you that impression. I assumed that it could have been made by someone that built frames as a hobby.

I am assuming it looks production based on the level of execution? I'm just curious what gives you that impression. I assumed that it could have been made by someone that built frames as a hobby.

The most noticeable detail is that the lugs haven't been filed - with exception to any geometry stamping, they look pretty much out-of-the-box. Many custom framebuilders would have tapered that joint between the stays and dropout a bit more as well.


Fastback stays missing the seat lug is not a good design feature, watch for cracking.

Maybe not as strong in comparison to if it were attached to a lug surface, but didn't Eisentraut successfully produce frames with a fillet-brazed monostay?

-Kurt

I didn't see this comment before. I guess I can see what that would be a problem and I will definitely take your word for it. I only knew that was the area for a signature because it was a low stress point. So I suppose it would be the brass or silver that breaks free from the seat tube?the tubing is quite thin there and the seat stay/seat tube joint does take quite a bit of stress. If the seat tube is not reinforced, it is thin enough to flex significantly. This is not good for the filler, which develops fatigue cracks. I've seen pictures of frames that broke there and repaired a number of vintage bikes that broke there. It's pretty much accepted wisdom in the framebuilding community that reinforcement is required. Granted, there are many examples of frames that had stays like this and survived just fine.


This is clearly not a one-off frame built by a hobbyist. The brazing wasn't filed, and it's pretty good. The dropouts are a little funny; they plug into the stays. That doesn't allow much freedom in the way they are finished. So you really can't make much of a judgement based on the finish there. The fact that there was very little finishing done on the frame suggests it was either production or the original story was true and it was someone's team bike.

The dropouts are a little funny; they plug into the stays. That doesn't allow much freedom in the way they are finished.

But a finish-conscious framebuilder would have filed the butt end of the plug to smooth out its transition with the tube:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4869011961_584d424047_b.jpg

Note the bump, as opposed to a gradual curve had the top edge of the dropout been smoothed down.

-Kurt

This frame was kicked around for a day or so on the GitaneUSA Forum. It's definitely not a Gitane that any of the members have ever seen. Fignon only rode the blue Gitane frames for maybe 3 years 4 at the most. In the late 80s the SystemU frames were white with black and yellow trim. He also rode a Raleigh (and lost).

So it remains a mystery frame. Maybe a one off prototype?

Ride it and enjoy knowing that you are on a rare "Batard"!

Chas.

This frame was kicked around for a day or so on the GitaneUSA Forum. It's definitely not a Gitane that any of the members have ever seen. Fignon only rode the blue Gitane frames for maybe 3 years 4 at the most. In the late 80s the SystemU frames were white with black and yellow trim. He also rode a Raleigh (and lost).

So it remains a mystery frame. Maybe a one off prototype?

Ride it and enjoy knowing that you are on a rare "Batard"!

Chas.

Haha! Thanks for the input, I agree with you 100%. I pulled the fork and found that the bike was purple at one time, probably it's original color. I couldn't find any markings on the steer tube to indicate the tubing brand. I was thinking about making decals that say "Gitaint" (combination of Gitane and Aint) Anyway, I am just fine not knowing what it is and am currently building it up. My plan for it is to be the non-prissy bike in my collection, which previously was my Trek's job. I want to ride it, let it get dirty and not fuss over it. I got a sealed cartridge bottom bracket too so that it would be lower maintenance.

Sorry to dig this thread up from the past, but I thought this was cool...

I purchased, what I am pretty sure is this exact frame locally here in Northern VA. After reading this and a thread and doing a bunch of other research, I ended up on Joe Bringheli's site. Joe is a importer of Dedacciai and Columbus tubes as well as maker of frame building jigs and other tools. He also builds custom frames. I contacted him with some pics of the bike, and he confirmed it is one of his. Apparently the "W" on the bottom bracket stands for "Walter" - a series of lugs he also imports.

He was pretty brief outside of confirming it was one of this. I would love to ask him more about the make of the bike - but I don't want to bother the guy too much. As for the eBay sellers story about Laurent Fignon - who really knows. One piece does line up though... I am in the process of refinishing the frame and stripping the paint off the steerer revealed a Reynolds 531 marking. The rest of the frame is likely a mix...the oversized DT gives me some doubt that it is all 531.

Anyway, looking forward to getting it set up. I typically don't post on this forum much, but I will probably hang around a bit more after this one.

Thanks for updating this thread! I think this was the first real bit of info about it. Right now, another forum member has the frame from this thread. I think Robtown.

Thanks for updating this thread! I think this was the first real bit of info about it. Right now, another forum member has the frame from this thread. I think Robtown.

Thanks - I am pretty sure I bought this off of Robtown. His name was Rob at least.

Glad to have the mystery cleared up!

Trying my hand at a respray and should have it built up by this spring. Cool frame - looking forward to the ride.

Haha, weird! It's a small, small world. I can't believe this thread got some closure. Thank you again for bumping it with an update. Make sure to post some pictures of your progress, I am really interested.

Ah, I see he is from Parma. I bought the frame from an ebay seller in Cleveland, just 50 miles north of me.

Wow, that is cool!

Haha, weird! It's a small, small world. I can't believe this thread got some closure. Thank you again for bumping it with an update. Make sure to post some pictures of your progress, I am really interested.

I definitely will. Deciding on a color now - almost have the frame completely stripped. Stay tuned...