Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Seated climbing, and chafing: Shorts, saddle, or something else?

In the past 2 weekends I've ridden 4 mountain passes and encountered a problem I have not had on any other long rides. Having done 200 - 400k rides with significant but not prolonged climbing, I've never had any chafing problems. Last weekend I rode a 16 mile climb up Stevens Pass on a 200k perm. On Saturday I did a 300k brevet with 3 passes similar to Stevens (between 16 - 21mi/each).
Both times I ended up chafing myself, just ahead of my sit bones and at my perinium no matter the amount of chamois creme I used.
I ride a B17 Imperial saddle, and I was wearing FI.Mille bibs (which I will be switching away from for other fit reasons), but I have not had problems with this combination in the past.
Could the nose-up positioning I find so comfortable for my flat and rolling rides be the source of the problem during prolonged climbing routes? Might the cutout of the B17 Imperial be "tenting/peaking" and causing irritation when I have my full weight on the rear of the saddle?

I managed to grunt it out and finish the ride, even though it was very uncomfortable for the last 40 miles, which leads me to another question for the longer distance riders: The most I've done is 400k and had no issues. What, aside from chamois creme (which wasn't helping anymore,) would you suggest using if I get into a situation like this again to keep it from getting any worse? Vaseline? Neosporin? A&D Ointment? Or will things like that ruin a pair of shorts?

I have some Endura shorts that I like but if I don't put them on just right they chafe. So I would buy into any of your theories that have to do with how the chamois sits relative to your body. Plus you've probably lost weight and that potentially allows them to slide more.

There was one incident when I had problems with chafing where it was obvious to me that sitting while climbing was causing an issue. I could feel the chamois sliding and shredding skin. The only thing was I was within a mile of the finish and I my right knee hurt so much I couldn't stand. So I toughed it out, but I was close to tears when I got to the finish.

...Could the nose-up positioning I find so comfortable for my flat and rolling rides be the source of the problem during prolonged climbing routes? Might the cutout of the B17 Imperial be "tenting/peaking" and causing irritation when I have my full weight on the rear of the saddle?...

Could be. When I see bikes with the saddle in the nose up position it makes me cringe. ;) If it works though, it doesn't matter what I think. Since it's not working maybe it's time to reevaluate? I think you hit an important factor that when you are climbing your body is often in a different position and that very well could be part of the problem. Same thing (except in he other direction) if you were to be riding extended periods in aerobars. Before you make any great changes I'd wait until you are doing another ride with extended climbing and when you do try nosing the saddle down a touch and see how it works. Don't make big changes all at once. See how it goes, you may need to go lower but it'll give you a good indication if you're going in the right direction.


... What, aside from chamois creme (which wasn't helping anymore,) would you suggest using if I get into a situation like this again to keep it from getting any worse? Vaseline? Neosporin? A&D Ointment? Or will things like that ruin a pair of shorts?
I don't normally use chamois cream except on rides of 600k or longer and then, only as a preventative measure. When I do I use Udder Butter. You can get it at any farm supply store. ;) Works awesome. Once you get a sore/s though you've got another problem and that's pain. You need a pain killer. I'm going to spell this wrong again but I use lantiseptic. It's got a topical pain killer and works awesome. Still use the chamois cream as well. I got a nasty saddle sore on day one of RAAM this year and that stuff got me through the week. It actually started healing even though I was racing and it was better at the end than the start.

Could be. When I see bikes with the saddle in the nose up position it makes me cringe. ;) If it works though, it doesn't matter what I think.

One of my ride partners was mentioning the "nose-up club" and how when he was getting his bike checked over for L'Eroica, the authenticity judge kept pointing at his saddle and saying "no good. No good." And Andy (rider) kept trying to explain that it's comfortable that way; but he didn't speak Italian, the judge barely knew English, and finally Andy said he points at his seat and makes a "thumbs up", smiles, grabs his junk and says "these are my b**ls. Not yours." And the judge finally gave up on arguing with him.

That story out of the way, I will look into making some changes, but not all at once. I do need different shorts, because there's an issue with the way the bib fits at the front of the Assos, and since I lost some more weight the top stitching of the chamois was rubbing wrong. Grr. It's a bummer because I love the feel of the FI.Mille for the compression I get in my quads. It's not a matter of needing a size smaller, because that would be too short in the bib and give me an atomic wedgie.
I've been looking at other saddles, and I did try the Selle SMP Pro a while back; but my problem with that one was the high-peaked shape to the padding. I mean, that thing was nearly pointed in profile! Or at least it felt that way to me... The padding wasn't nearly matched to the dimensions I was hoping for.
My next round will be with a Selle Italia Prolink Flow. It's got a much flatter profile to the rear of the shell, more like the B17 shape I'm currently accustomed to. Considering where I'm having my problems, the best I can deduce is that when I'm on my sit bones on the B17 Imperial, I'm not keeping my soft tissues well enough from irritation; so I need a saddle that will allow me the same kind of contact area like the B17 since I'm comfortable with it, but not flex so much under my weight allowing all the other contact I'm making. The Prolink Flow seems to be a decent candidate from those that I've seen on friends' bikes. (I didn't see an SMP Pro in person before buying one, or I never would have tried one out.)

As for Lantiseptic, I'll have to look for the stuff. I don't recall having seen it around here, but I haven't specifically looked for it, either.

As for Lantiseptic, I'll have to look for the stuff. I don't recall having seen it around here, but I haven't specifically looked for it, either.you're going to find that in the Pharmacy aisle.

I'd try a fizik aliante. Most shops that carry them have trial periods.

btw, I forgot to mention, if you are on a long ride and get a sore or abrasion one of the things you can do to help alleviate the problem is to change your position on the bike a little bit. As an example, if you get sore from climbing moving to an aero position with your butt on the nose can help, and visa-versa. You just have to be a little careful because if you are suddenly riding in a position you are not use to for extended periods you can end up with sores there as well. When I do long rides I tend to move around a lot on the seat into different positions just like I move my hands. That helps head off any potential problems before they happen and gets your butt accustomed to multiple positions. The key is to prevent having an issue in the first place.

Had the identical thing happen to me on the Mountain 400 a couple of years ago. Didn't bother me at all on the flat 400 the year before. I tried that saddle some more, but from then on it always chafed. I think your body changes over time and that changes your preferable saddle. I'd been on that saddle for years, and had to try about 15 before I found my present one, which works great for me, for the present. Look at where exactly it chafed vs. what the saddle looks like there. Whatever it is, that part of the saddle has to not be there.

Presently on a Performance Forte Classic, like $36. I bought three. And I did try the fancy $150-$200 saddles. Nope.

Sorry to hear that Clifton. Have you tried relacing the B-17, and maybe taking a turn on the nut. (no joke meant).

As for climbing, I have no idea, nor do I want to relearn this skill. I'll stay happy climbing my mount levee, 25 feet of climbing. lol! Maybe I'll I'll do levee training. :)

btw, I forgot to mention, if you are on a long ride and get a sore or abrasion one of the things you can do to help alleviate the problem is to change your position on the bike a little bit.
I might have waited too long before I started shifting around. When I finally settled into the realization that I would just be grinding away at 6mph for the next 3 hours, I really didn't move around much.


I think your body changes over time and that changes your preferable saddle...
Presently on a Performance Forte Classic, like $36. I bought three. And I did try the fancy $150-$200 saddles. Nope.
I have been changing a bit over the last year; even over the last 6 months with dropping weight. This probably has a lot to do with things.
Funny you should mention a sub-$40 saddle. One of my ride partners saw the Assos and B17 Imperial and said the best he's felt on long rides has been after he switched from expensive shorts back to some $60 Performance house brand. I like my Ultra-II's for 100 and 200k, maybe I ought to re-visit that strategy and try 'em out on a longer ride... Heck, they were comfortable when I wore them on my 1-day STP a few years ago.


Sorry to hear that Clifton. Have you tried relacing the B-17, and maybe taking a turn on the nut. (no joke meant).
Hehe.
I've turned the tensioning bolt and I think all that's done is tighten things up through the center and add to the "peaked" feeling when I put my weight on it. I'm willing to believe that it's in no small part an issue with my previous weight (260) and my current weight (225) and that things just fit differently now.

Well if you had a lot a miles in the setup with no problems - something must have changed.

Don't have anything to add, except maybe that I often "over lube" at the start of a long ride. If you wait until you've been going a while some times adding lube after already riding just doesn't work.

Bag Balm is another alternative to chamois cream. I use it on longer rides - it uses a petroleum jelly base (think Vaseline), with lanolin and the equivalent of Neosporin. So it not only reduces the friction, but it also helps kill some of the bacteria that can cause small breaks in the skin to get infected. At least in theory. It seems to be very similar to Udder Budder, and it was designed to treat a cow's udder in harsh New England winter conditions. But they actually stock it in CVS, in the skin care aisle.

JB

Bag Balm, Lantiseptic, and all those other creams really help on a shorter ride. But once you get to 400k, it's got to be a perfect fit of butt, shorts, and saddle. And there is such a thing as saddle/shorts combos that work and don't work. For me, it depends on just where the pad ends vs. where the saddle ends. Too thick and large a pad that drapes over saddle corners adds friction.

Well if you had a lot a miles in the setup with no problems - something must have changed.
For certain, my weight has changed. I think that is part of it. Possibly, the saddle shape has changed, as a Brooks is wont to do over time, so I'm looking at trying out a new saddle.


Don't have anything to add, except maybe that I often "over lube" at the start of a long ride. If you wait until you've been going a while some times adding lube after already riding just doesn't work.
I don't know that I overdo it at the start, but I definitely don't start a long ride without any chamois creme.


I checked out a few saddles last night. I sat on a Selle Italia Prolink, and it was very comfortable, even with my nethers still being a bit sore. I like the width of the new Turbomatic, but they only brought it back with carbon rails and I just don't feel comfortable putting that under my weight (plus I couldn't put my Bagman support on there.) I think I'll see what a Max Flite feels like, since it's a little bit wider than the Prolink.
Someone suggested I try out a Fizik Aliante, and I think the shop has a tester I can spin on for a few to see what I think. The oddest choice I could come up with when I was looking things over was that I might give a try to the Selle Italia Diva gel flow. At 160mm, it's nearly as wide across the back as my B17, with a similar flat-ish profile.
Anyone know of a good reason why I shouldn't leave myself open to that option? Would the 25mm shorter nose be problematic (265mm vs. 290mm on the other models)?

CliftonGK1,

You haven't mentioned Selle-Anatomica saddles. I've been riding them since PBP and they are very comfortable.

I usually put on a layer of Lantiseptic, which is really sticky stuff, and then on top of that I put on a layer of Chamois Butt'r, so that everything slides around and avoids chafing. The Lantiseptic helps keep the skin from getting irritated by sweat or rain and lasts really well. The Chamois Butt'r needs to be reapplied more often, like every 100Km. Once you've let things go far enough that you've gotten chafed, you're going to have to suffer at least somewhat.

I've also noticed it is easier to get chafed while sitting and climbing. I suspect that it's because your pedal strokes are moving you forward and gravity is moving you backward, so you're rocking a little more than on the flat.

But I agree with Carbonfiberboy, you can lather on all the lantiseptic and chamois butt'r, or whatever, but if your shorts have a seam in the wrong place, you're going to be uncomfortable. I have a pair of shorts that is just fine up to about 50 miles, but after that they feel like you're sitting on a brillo pad. And if you've lost 35 pounds (congratulations!) then the shorts that used to fit perfectly are not likely to fit so well anymore, so things that didn't bug you before may now be the proverbial seam that is in the wrong place.

Nick

^+
Nick has a good scheme that I've often used. Not as good as the perfect butt/shorts/saddle combo, though. But he's right, that's exactly how to get the least friction. The Butt'r over Bag Balm works well, also.

CliftonGK1,

You haven't mentioned Selle-Anatomica saddles. I've been riding them since PBP and they are very comfortable.

I usually put on a layer of Lantiseptic, which is really sticky stuff, and then on top of that I put on a layer of Chamois Butt'r, so that everything slides around and avoids chafing. The Lantiseptic helps keep the skin from getting irritated by sweat or rain and lasts really well. The Chamois Butt'r needs to be reapplied more often, like every 100Km. Once you've let things go far enough that you've gotten chafed, you're going to have to suffer at least somewhat.

I didn't mention An-Atomica because I was thinking about going away from the suspended leather cutout, considering this issue was with a B17 Imperial. Maybe the different design of the An-Atomica with the Clyde underskinning they do is less likely to have this issue? I can take a look at one at a pal's place tonight; he's got a spare Prolink gel flow he's letting me try out, and I think he has an An-Atomica on one of his bikes. We're going to do some RCA regarding the problems I'm having with my current setup.

You mentioned sweat and rain, and this could be another factor for me, since I sweat quite a bit. Truthfully, I sweat a hell of a lot, and even on a totally dry day my kit ends up looking like I went swimming. Because of this, I've had difficulty finding a chamois creme with the viscosity to hold up under those conditions. Chamois Butt'r and Udder Butter chamois creme (different than their regular hand stuff) just didn't do it. I can sweat that thin stuff away in 30 miles. I've been using Assos, and re-apply about every 50mi to 100km with decent results (until these last 2 weekends). Maybe I need to step things up with stuff like Bag Balm or Lantiseptic to counter this issue? Maybe I just need to carry a spare pair of shorts, and change halfway through a ride?

I didn't mention An-Atomica because I was thinking about going away from the suspended leather cutout, considering this issue was with a B17 Imperial. Maybe the different design of the An-Atomica with the Clyde underskinning they do is less likely to have this issue? I can take a look at one at a pal's place tonight; he's got a spare Prolink gel flow he's letting me try out, and I think he has an An-Atomica on one of his bikes. We're going to do some RCA regarding the problems I'm having with my current setup.

You mentioned sweat and rain, and this could be another factor for me, since I sweat quite a bit. Truthfully, I sweat a hell of a lot, and even on a totally dry day my kit ends up looking like I went swimming. Because of this, I've had difficulty finding a chamois creme with the viscosity to hold up under those conditions. Chamois Butt'r and Udder Butter chamois creme (different than their regular hand stuff) just didn't do it. I can sweat that thin stuff away in 30 miles. I've been using Assos, and re-apply about every 50mi to 100km with decent results (until these last 2 weekends). Maybe I need to step things up with stuff like Bag Balm or Lantiseptic to counter this issue? Maybe I just need to carry a spare pair of shorts, and change halfway through a ride?

I just bought an Imperial "S" for my wife's commute bike, and will probably give it a try sometime. I used to have a Brooks Pro that I had had the An-Atomica people put a cutout into. It was never comfortable because it isn't wide enough. The An-Atomica is just a fabulous saddle for comfort, though the rails seem a little bendy. Anyway, I don't think you should avoid it because of issues with your Imperial, they're very different saddles.

Slathering on a layer of Lantiseptic first thing will probably go a long way toward solving your problems. It usually lasts for a 200Km, no matter how rainy or sweaty. Some people say it causes saddle sores because it clogs pores. I'm not so sure. The last long ride where I used Lantiseptic was about two weeks ago, and I just noticed a saddle sore this morning that I think cannot therefore be associated with Lantiseptic. So I figure that the occasional saddle sore just comes with the territory.

I used to use Bag Balm, but quit because, among other things, the antibiotic in it is (supposedly) not approved for human use. Maybe that shouldn't matter. But it's why I switched to Lantiseptic, which is the stuff that old people's homes use for bedsores. Anyway, I carry a packet of Lantiseptic and a packet of Chamois Butt'r for each 100Km when I'm on long rides. That works better for me than new shorts. And in fact, on multi-day rides, the new shorts that have in the drop bag and put on each day don't feel as good at first until you've got them impregnated with goop.

I used to use Bag Balm, but quit because, among other things, the antibiotic in it is (supposedly) not approved for human use. Maybe that shouldn't matter.

8-Hydroxyquinoline is the antiseptic in Bag Balm (since they removed the mercuric compounds a while ago). It's a possible irritant, mutagen, etc blahblah MSDS. But the oral LD50 for rats was 1200mg/kg. Since there's only 0.3% in Bag Balm, an 80kg rider would have to consume more than their own body weight of Bag Balm for a 50% chance at the 8-hqs killing them. :lol:

I second the recommendation of layering bag balm and cham butt'r. The one thing different that I do is that I ONLY use that combination on double century distances. Anything shorter I don't use any lubrication. I found this helped to toughen up the tissues in the nether regions.

When I know I'm going for a long ride, I'll use Lanacane anti chafing gel. Then I'll use Aquaphor over bag balm. I think I would drop the nose of the saddle as well.

I might have waited too long before I started shifting around. When I finally settled into the realization that I would just be grinding away at 6mph for the next 3 hours, I really didn't move around much.


I have been changing a bit over the last year; even over the last 6 months with dropping weight. This probably has a lot to do with things.
Funny you should mention a sub-$40 saddle. One of my ride partners saw the Assos and B17 Imperial and said the best he's felt on long rides has been after he switched from expensive shorts back to some $60 Performance house brand. I like my Ultra-II's for 100 and 200k, maybe I ought to re-visit that strategy and try 'em out on a longer ride... Heck, they were comfortable when I wore them on my 1-day STP a few years ago.


Hehe.
I've turned the tensioning bolt and I think all that's done is tighten things up through the center and add to the "peaked" feeling when I put my weight on it. I'm willing to believe that it's in no small part an issue with my previous weight (260) and my current weight (225) and that things just fit differently now.

I'm 10 # lighter now than I was last year this time, after my spring of training and four recent metrics (don't laugh, those are bests for me!). I bought some new Performance Ultra II bibs and found the straps are too short for me and the pad therefore is not held in place. But Ultra shorts have worked very well for me so far in large. I'm still waiting for the medium Ultra shorts to arrive, but I think it's clear that a smaller short could be needed.

I also wonder if you're shifting farther back on your saddle when you climb, than you did in the past. I find that with my new strength and lighter weight I tend to mash more rather than spin, and that involves shifting backwards for me at least. It's added knee stress, so I need to train myself to spin (again!) in addition to continued joint conditioning. Maybe you need to, as Homey said, lower the nose of the saddle just a millimeter or so at a time and see if there's a position that's better for you now - maybe the "magic angle" is a bit lower than it was. I wouldn't guess your saddle needs to be moved forward or back.

I'm 10 # lighter now than I was last year this time, after my spring of training and four recent metrics (don't laugh, those are bests for me!). I bought some new Performance Ultra II bibs and found the straps are too short for me and the pad therefore is not held in place. But Ultra shorts have worked very well for me so far in large. I'm still waiting for the medium Ultra shorts to arrive, but I think it's clear that a smaller short could be needed.
I'm probably always gonna be a bib guy, and I haven't had any issues with the Ultra II straps being too short. This weekend I'm going to go back to giving them a try.


I also wonder if you're shifting farther back on your saddle when you climb, than you did in the past. I find that with my new strength and lighter weight I tend to mash more rather than spin, and that involves shifting backwards for me at least. It's added knee stress, so I need to train myself to spin (again!) in addition to continued joint conditioning. Maybe you need to, as Homey said, lower the nose of the saddle just a millimeter or so at a time and see if there's a position that's better for you now - maybe the "magic angle" is a bit lower than it was. I wouldn't guess your saddle needs to be moved forward or back.
I was shifted pretty far back on this last ride. Not out of any mashing, but just for comfort on 16 - 21 mile long climbs, I found myself wanting to be farther back on the saddle. This could be due to the nose-up angle I have on the saddle, plus the additional 5 - 7% grade of the road forcing me back from too high a nose angle. The possibility is that I can lower the nose a half degree at a time and see how far down I can bring the nose of the saddle without affecting the overall feel, so I don't end up sliding forward off the back. I haven't done anything in the way of saddle adjustment since losing the weight.

On the Cascade 1200 a few weeks ago, I did quite a few long sweaty climbs and my back end was starting to get a bit raw on the third day. On climbs I got into the habit of standing for about 10 - 15 seconds every few minutes. It seemed to help a lot. Not only did my butt feel better, but I was climbing faster too. I did it on the flats too, but less frequently. But you have to be very careful to do the transitions smoothly and warn people behind you if you're riding in a pace line.

I'm generally not a lube user, not because I think there's anything wrong with it, but just because I haven't really needed it. So, I don't have any advice on what goos should be rubbed on which body parts.