Bicycle Mechanics - Best Cantilever Brakes

I have a Surly Cross Check and my front brakes seem to cause squeal that can't be fixed. Three LBS, a bicycle Co-op, many different good pads (mostly kool-stop, often salmon colored) and my own time/work haven't been able to fix it. I had a local frame builder check the braze-ons and rim, all good.

So what are the best, low-profile canti brakes on the market? I don't mind shelling out the cash. I hear good things about Paul, but I'm unsure. Anyone have suggestions?

If you tried toeing them in and it didn't help try a little toe OUT. That's right, the leading edge touches first. It sounds odd and isn't in any books or online pages but I've used toe out a couple of times now and it fixed the squeal where nothing else did.

Squeal is not about the quality or price of the arms and pivots. It IS about how the system resonates. Kill the sympathetic vibrations and the squeal or shudder goes away. You may well pay big bucks for a set of Paul's or something else based on recomendations from folks here only to find that they STILL squeal like a stuck pig on YOUR bike.

In one case I'm riding now I've got the low profile MTB style Kookstop salmon's on the bike because it's the only thing that gives me the clearance I need to be able to retract the arms enough to remove the wheels. NOTHING would stop them from singing like a soprano in heat until I cut away the first leading (as in rearwards) block of the pad. With the shorter effective pad the squeal went away. I altered the system that was producing the resonance far enough out that it doesn't sing any longer. But put those same arms and pads onto a different frame and fork or even change to a differnet wheelset that uses a different extrusion alloy in the rim and it's quite possible that the problem would be back again.

I rode my Surly LHT for quite a while with tektro oryx and thought that, once set up correctly, they worked great and I'd not have changed them for other cantilevers.

By "set up correctly" I mean that I set the yoke low, and the pads inward more toward the rims when the brake arms are at rest (by moving the pad spacers so that the fat one is on the other side). This results in great leverage when the levers are squeezed, and really made a HUGE difference in braking power for me. The trade off is that the pads are set closer to the rim, so CX riders usually hate it because it can trap mud (I hear at least, since I don't ride CX).

I never had squeal or any issues with fork vibration. YMMV.

I now use V-brakes simply for ease of set-up and because I had a nice set I really liked. I could do the oryx again in a hearbeat if I needed to.

What BCR said: I agree that more expensive units probably won't work differently in any significant way. Most cantilevers I've set up ALL could work great when done properly.

thanks! I'm going to try both of your suggestions right now

Clean your rims well to remove any builtup dirt/glaze. Take some fine emery cloth, and lightly sand them, then wipe clean with acetone or brake cleaner.

I hate that suggestion. Don't sand your rims, ever. It isn't needed and is a waste of time, sandpaper and aluminum, unless you just have to have a perfect looking rim, which gets screwed up by just applying the brakes once. Toe-in and pivot tightness (depending on type of brake) is all that is needed to adjust and quiet brake squeal/chatter.

Paul's CNC cantilevers are very good, unlike (all?) the others they manufacture a bushing that slides over the frame boss.

that way they manufacture the tolerances between the Bronze bushing in the brake arm,
and the bushing that they make to fit on the frame.
then they have 2 O rings to keep the grease between the 2 cleaner longer.

Touring version is somewhat low profile, but the lever arms are longer.

Many customers buy the Neo Retro for the front , and the touring for the rear.

I have tried everything you guys suggested, aside from sanding the rim. I wish I could use v-brakes, but having drop handlebars nixes that option. Paul makes a "Brake Booster"

http://www.paulcomp.com/brakebooster.html

I'm thinking it isn't a bad idea, and it seems my tires and fenders would fit. Certainly better than $110 on new brakes. What do you guys think?

Are you sure you have the toe in set correctly?

164267

Absolutely. My rear brakes work perfectly and I set them up the same way. When that didn't work I tried different toe-in angles, nada.

there are V brake pull Road levers , too.. and Kool stop salmon compound pads are a good thing

how loose are the arms on the bosses? How much play?

I didn't know there were v-brake road levers :) and I am using the salmon kool-stops. Do the v-brake road levers have a built-in travel agent or do you need to pull them farther than road levers to exert enough force?

there is a little play, not much, same as the rear brakes and it is as tight as I can make it.

I had a set of Avid shorty 4 (actually several sets) and I couldn't make them stop squealing on the front. I swapped out for the tektro CR720 and once set up properly, they were silent and powerful. Before you spend $100+ on new brakes drop $24 on those and see if they work.

hmm makes sense.

How old are these pads? How long have they been on the bike? These are Kool Stop Salmons, correct?

I run tectro with shimano pads and only have trouble when the rim gets a little oil or grease on it and I don't worry about toe-in.

They haven't been on long, and yes they are kool stop salmons. But this has been a problem with several set of pads and I usually let them wear for a while, no difference. I'm just going to pick up a new set of brakes.

the tektro V brake road levers pull more cable, Diacompe/canecreek also makes some
No Brifters, then you need the travel agent to run V brakes and keep the STI thing going.

yeh I just had an email conversation with someone at Cane Creek about that. I have bar end shifter so STI isn't an issue.

Nashbar (http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10053&productId=514907&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=201991&top_category=10000)has them on sale right now.

I hate that suggestion. Don't sand your rims, ever. It isn't needed and is a waste of time, sandpaper and aluminum, As they say, ignorance is bliss. It can work when nothing else does, that's a fact.

I wonder if cutting vertical slits in the brake pads would change anything. Thoughts, anyone?

Or how about greasing the brake posts? Or shimming them very slightly?

I have at least 1000 miles on swiss stop green canti pads now. Best I have tried so far, and very very quiet.

If all else fails, I recently built up a new Surly Cross Check and installed Shimano's BR-R550 cantilevers and, so far, they have been great with excellent stopping power, good modulation and silence.

I had a set of early '90's Shimano LX cantis on an old Trek MTB and they were difficult to set up and never really worked all that well, even with Kool Stop pads. These new BR-R550s are worlds better and they use V-brake slip in pads so pad replacent won't require a complete realignment of the holders.

I have a theory, and it's worth exactly what you pay for it -- if you have everything adjusted properly and toed-in correctly and they still squeal, look at the headset. I have a bike with a "classic" Stronglight A9 headset and Avid Shorty 6 brakes and I couldn't make it stop shrieking. It was terrible -- people called the police on me. I installed one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Tektro-Brake-Housing-1272AF-Silver/dp/B000C14HNS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1281578469&sr=8-1

And it's all quiet on Houston Avenue.

The thing about the A9 and its roller bearings, I suspect, is that it doesn't make any difference how carefully the adjustment is, you can't get rid of the shudder because of the geometry of the roller bearing set up. So, is it possible that there is any room at all for shudder with your headset? You probably have a threadless headset with ball bearings in a cartridge -- have you tried tightening it up a little?

Of course, my theory is probably just a theory.

It was terrible -- people called the police on me.

Seriously?

ehh, I'm going to try and give the rim a LIGHT sanding. After that, I'm just going to get new brakes. I'm too frustrated at this point to do much else.

OK, but don't buy an expensive set. As has been pointed out, it could be the bike, not the brakes.

That makes sense but I doubt it is the bike itself. However, if something is wrong with the fork, I'm going to make someone at QBP cry.

My favourite cantis are the '92 XTR's on my hybrid which are mated to '92 XTR levers... am running salmon Kool Stops and this set up is amazing but... you can't buy XTR cantis anymore and when you find them they can cost as much as $100.00 for the brakes.

The Shimano BR 550 is a great brake and probably the current favourite canti for long distance riders and tourers.

Have never found any love for Avid Shorty 4's and they have been the only canti I could not get to behave well and with everything set to perfection they still squealed like a cat in heat.

Have you tried oiling your rims? I know it sounds crazy.

ehh, I'm going to try and give the rim a LIGHT sanding. After that, I'm just going to get new brakes. I'm too frustrated at this point to do much else.It doesn't take much, just a light scuffing. It's not to remove metal, just scratch it up a bit. One of those green 3M scrubbies might even work. Follow it up with acetone or brake cleaner to make sure any grease/wax is removed, too.

Scotchbrite , for pots and pans may do for thorough rim cleaning ,
for a bit more abrasive, I got a similar product at the hardware store ,
a brown scotchbrite like pad but impregnated with carborundum..

My kitchen cleanup on the scorched stuff..

Ultra fine steel wool works great too for cleaning rims.

forgewithinfire .... kool stop salmons can and do squeal like hogs. Yes, the perform great, but for some bikes they just squeal. You can toe them in all you want, sometimes it just doesn't matter. That's reality. The best mechanic knows nothing is 100% fixable. It doesn't matter what anyone else tells you about them, as you may have found out.

When all else fails, try another brake. Come back to your current brakes some other time. My best low profile canti is Suntour's XC Pro. No longer made, but always available on ebay.

Ultra fine steel wool works great too for cleaning rims. Brass wool, maybe. Steel wool shouldn't be used on aluminum, little bits of steel will become embedded, and rust.

Shame on me. I've stopped using toe in as a way of stopping brake shriek. I spray a little teflon on a cloth, wipe both sides of rim et volia. Problem solved and in 99% of cases doesn't return. I use it on customers bikes (although mainly V-brake equipped)

Slightly diminished braking power the first couple of times, but I take care of that by doing that for the customer on the test ride.

It is my experience that cleaning the rim sidewall to within an inch of its life is often the cause of the problem, not the solution.

I sanded the rim and it helped. I then used an etching/prepping compound used to adhere carbon fiber to aluminum, FIXED! I am starting a bamboo bicycle in a few months so I had it lying around :)

Seriously?

Ok, you caught me in a lie.

Never mind.

Brass wool, maybe. Steel wool shouldn't be used on aluminum, little bits of steel will become embedded, and rust.


I'm referring to grade 0000 steel wool. It will leave no embedded bits. It's so fine you can use it to remove decals from AL stems, seatposts ,etc, and it doesn't leave a mark. It may be too fine for rims ..... I use it because I have some around.

If you tried toeing them in and it didn't help try a little toe OUT. That's right, the leading edge touches first. It sounds odd and isn't in any books or online pages but I've used toe out a couple of times now and it fixed the squeal where nothing else did.

Squeal is not about the quality or price of the arms and pivots. It IS about how the system resonates. Kill the sympathetic vibrations and the squeal or shudder goes away. You may well pay big bucks for a set of Paul's or something else based on recomendations from folks here only to find that they STILL squeal like a stuck pig on YOUR bike.

This is completely correct. The cure for the problem (unless you are running an all carbon fork, which would be bizarre on a Cross Check) is to fit a fork mounted brake hanger instead of a headset mounted one. Kona make a nice one; it's less than £10 in the UK. Braking power will probably go up too. A brake booster that has its own cable holder might work too.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/12/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-return-to-cross_101807

I have a Surly Cross Check and my front brakes seem to cause squeal that can't be fixed. Three LBS, a bicycle Co-op, many different good pads (mostly kool-stop, often salmon colored) and my own time/work haven't been able to fix it. I had a local frame builder check the braze-ons and rim, all good.

So what are the best, low-profile canti brakes on the market? I don't mind shelling out the cash. I hear good things about Paul, but I'm unsure. Anyone have suggestions?

If the Paul's don't cause you to gulp, buy them. If the price is and issue, IRD Cafams are almost as good.

Two more pieces of advice:

- Fit an old style adjustable straddle cable and canti bridge and set the straddle cables as described in Zinn's book (summarized here http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ed-(Looks-GOOD (http://www.bikeforums.net/../showthread.php?670071-Zinn-method-of-canti-set-up-anyone-else-tried-%28Looks-GOOD)!)

- Put either Koolstop or Swiss Stop Pads on. If you write in the wet, then either pink Kools or the green Swiss.

With the right straddle length and pads and a fork mounted hanger your brakes will feel almost like hydraulic disks. Btw - cantis always feel squashy when they are tuned correctly - NOT hard and definite. This is because they are so powerful you will feel the pads squash.

If you need any more help on cantis, the Cyclocross forum is the place to go. Do a search first, because almost every question has been answered before - cantis are a big topic there!

Oh - and the part number for the Kona fork mounted hanger is BP1272F.

I have no idea why bike manufacturer's don't fit these as standard! I think Specialized might have started with the Tricross which used to suffer from the much worse version of the problem where the fork judders badly under braking, reducing control.

Yeh, I have the kool-stop salmon pads, very nice braking power in wet weather. I didn't know they should be more squishy, it concerned me, glad to know it isn't a problem. If the problem returns I will certainly get the fork mounted cable hanger.

Do you know anyone who has used the Cane Creek Drop-V Levers with linear pull brakes? I know they aren't as powerful (and I'm doing light touring) but they are SO much easier to adjust and replace the pads. I really like the Cane Creek design for there v-brakes, no noodle. It would cost me about $150 but this bike is my baby, I love the thing :)

If the Paul's don't cause you to gulp, buy them. If the price is and issue, IRD Cafams are almost as good.

Pointless. These brakes are expensive and won't cure the squealing problem - they have nothing to with its cause, which is cable resonance. And they both have profiles that make them a pain to fit on a rear wheel. The Paul's retro (the brake people usually mean when they say just "a Paul's") is a good design for cross racing because the long lever arms mean that you can run with a high straddle cable for mud clearance over the tread (many cross races are mud baths - the ground is sometimes hosed to make 'em so br promoters) and still have decent braking power. But on a road bike - or even a crosser used for normal off road - this would be silly: a cheap and easy to fit brake with a lower profile will give endo-inducing braking if you simply set the straddle low. The Shimano R550 has a good rep as a modern general purpose canti, although I doubt the OP needs to buy new brakes.

Oh I know it has nothing to do with the squeal, I was just curious because I HATE fitting and adjusting cantilever brake pads. Oh well, nothing I can't deal with. Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!

Yeh, I have the kool-stop salmon pads, very nice braking power in wet weather. I didn't know they should be more squishy, it concerned me, glad to know it isn't a problem. If the problem returns I will certainly get the fork mounted cable hanger.

Do you know anyone who has used the Cane Creek Drop-V Levers with linear pull brakes?


Don't Cane Creek nmake a special linear pull lever? I know Tektro do. I'm told they work well.

Alternatively, do as Zinn did and fit a Travel Adapter and use standard levers.



I know they aren't as powerful (and I'm doing light touring) but they are SO much easier to adjust and replace the pads.


I'd never say that Vs are less powerful as a species than cantis; you probably just found a bad example. Otoh, I've never used a V with first rate modulation - but that could just be because my hands are tuned to cantis.

HOWEVER, if it is just the pads you care about, I believe that Kool Stop make cassette holders that fit in canti systems in place of the regular pads - so you just slide pads in and out of the holders. Take a look at the "Cross Pads" at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/BRK39a.JPG



I really like the Cane Creek design for there v-brakes, no noodle. It would cost me about $150 but this bike is my baby, I love the thing :)

If you really want to be good to your bike, find a local wheel builder and have him adjust the spoke tension in your bike's wheels -good hand built wheels are indestructible! Premium tyres are good too - the Marathon Supreme is very popular as a road tyre among discerning cross bike owners, it's still fast in 35 or 40mm sizes due to the low hysteresis rubber compound used. Or the Dureme has rave reviews and has some offroad capability while still being fast on the road.

The other thing I'd do for a Cross Check is to strip the frame and spray it inside with Frame Saver - goodbye ANY possibility of internal rust for the next few years. Just be careful - Frame Saver is nasty stuff to breathe in. Oh - and if you add "helicopter tape" to the frame it's invisible but makes the paint scratch proof. Cross Checks are nice and worth some fussing over...

Thanks, I will look into those brake pads. I am already using the Shwalbe Marathon Supremes :) Amazing tires! I didn't know helicopter tape existed, considering the powder coating has been scratching easily, it sounds like a great idea. I wrapped the top tube in bar-tape to prevent scratching when I lean it against bicycle racks, poles etc. It would be nice to remove it.

I am going to apply framesaver before winter, but I need to disassemble the bike to do so, something I don't have the skills or knowledge to do... and it isn't inexpensive to have my LBS do it, although they are excellent :)

Thanks, I will look into those brake pads. I am already using the Shwalbe Marathon Supremes :) Amazing tires! I didn't know helicopter tape existed, considering the powder coating has been scratching easily, it sounds like a great idea. I wrapped the top tube in bar-tape to prevent scratching when I lean it against bicycle racks, poles etc. It would be nice to remove it.


Helicopter tape is designed for protecting the lead edge of helicopter blades. It "self heals" to repair minor damage. It's exactly the stuff sold in small squares to protect PDA and iPhone screens, but it comes 20 times cheaper by the roll.



I am going to apply framesaver before winter, but I need to disassemble the bike to do so, something I don't have the skills or knowledge to do... and it isn't inexpensive to have my LBS do it, although they are excellent :)

Well, if you have to put it off a year, I doubt the Cross Check will die of it. Again, I can't understand why on earth bike makers don't do this before delivery....