Touring - Disc brakes, 700c and build advice

This thread is a continuation of my last, but is different enought that I thought it should start on a fresh page.

Previous thread here : http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?672006-Build-questions

In summary, I was thinking of a LHT build for an alaska-south america ride.

The recurring criticism was in relation to wheels. I don't want to spend 9 months on a 26in-wheeled road bike, but have also been made aware of the problem of wheel availability and lifespan (ie, i may need 1, more likely 2 new rims, given the length of my planned route.) This would probably be a PITA.

I went to my friendly LBS the other day. They recommended a salsa fargo for my needs. If I all of a sudden become financially stricken, they reccomended a kona sutra. In short, the guy (who has ridden across australia and who I trust) seemed to think that 'disc brakes are the future for touring'.

Is there a consensus on disc brakes for touring? I generally get ~2000km out of a set of pads on a mountain bike, being raced and ridden at race-pace exclusively.

I personally don't see any down-sides. I could easily fit 10+ pairs of Avid pads into the spares kit. I might need new rotors halfway (but I doubt) and it would avoid the rim destruction issue. There are plenty of disc brake rims available in 36h-29in (700c) for mountain bike use.

So - it'd be built up something like this:

Salsa fargo frameset.
King or Cane creek headset
xt 36h disc/mavic a719/dt comp wheels (i'd still like to be able to fit a road wheel in an emergency.
deore cranks w/ middleburn slickshift hardcoat 46/34/24 rings
xt rd
xt fd
deore cassette
avid bb7s
bar - perhaps a titec jones bar, perhaps road drops, perhaps a flat bar.
shifters, levers - depends on bar choice.
bottle cages: 6 of the things (!)
racks: tubus or surly
panniers: ortlieb

Vs. a lht it seems much more solidly built and suitable for geniune trans continental riding. As good as you could get (it seems) without getting a custom built bike. In comparison, a LHT seems somewhat like a day-tourer, even though I know they are not.

Discuss, critique and spew venom for the purpose of my learning, please.

Cheers,
Craig

Durring some of my talks at the LBS disc brakes have popped up for me as well. While this is new tech for me I have had a hard time getting them out of my head, at least the manual disc breaks, don't want to bother with hydralics on tour. But if I went with disc breaks I may as well build a "new" bike so I wouldn't have to toarch a old frame kicking the costs right back up to the new frame costs...

Sounds like you have quite a bit of experience with disc brakes, including how to maintain them. That should go a long way in your decision. If it were me, I'd use them in a heartbeat.

Curious about the frame choices - why did the LBS recommend Salsa and Kona over Surly?

I don't understand your the sentence toward the end, just about "Discus...." I think you're making a comparison, but I can't tell what you mean.

Regarding rim destruction, you're going to wear the rims that you have in any case. You might not have the sidewalls wearing, but you will still have quite a bit of extra weight on your wheels, and you will be going over less-than-optimal roads, which will eventually cause the rim to fail.

That being said, I have a couple of friends who just got off a round-the-world tour, and they liked their disc brakes.

You should also look at the Salsa Vaya if you are going that route. I test road one a few months back and I really liked it. The fargo is more off road oriented, and would be slower on the road, at least according to comparisons I've read.

As far as discs for touring, I don't see any big problems. It will be harder to find replacement parts in the styx of foreign countries, if not impossible. I'd carry and extra rotor and lots of pads. Also make sure you get a bike with chainstay mounted calipers, it avoids the rack interference issue. I know the vaya has chainstay mounts, not sure about the fargo.

Before you buy a Salsa Fargo, you'd best see if they've resolved the issues some have had with crazy death wobbles and unrideability with front panniers.

discussion here:
http://www.adventurecycling.org/forums/index.php?topic=6948.0

Reports that even Salsa staff say it is unstable with loads: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/board/message/?thread_id=131455

I think discs make sense. They solve two problems that do exist with brakes: Getting anything powerful enough to stop a touring bike in all weather, and compatible with road levers. The set-up to get a rim brake to work can be a pain. A lot of people don't know how to tune cantis, Vs are a compromise with road levers, and there can be a maze of getting either to function on specific frames. The solution being to copy the geometry of the OEM brake set-up, usually.

The second problem is the lever compatibility problem mentioned above, no such problems with BB7 and road levers.



The downsides are:

- probably a bad idea to let the brake decision be the tail wagging the dog on the frame decision. So conondale, and some others have it as an option, to their touring frame, if one had independently decided on those, it would make sense. Even worse would be to let it wag the handlebar issue.

- Fragile in trans. Some people have talked about them getting broken in transit.

- Most tourists recommend against getting anything other than the cable actuated Avids, so one product choice and a nightmare if anything goes wrong. In any case, you want road bars you can't really have hydraulic.

- Won't solve the rim breaking problem and they put more load on your spokes. But the load is OK, and at least discs keep working if you taco the rim.

- Expensive, nothing wrong with that. I bought a BB7 onsale at the same time I bought Paul cantis. Price difference was about 20%. There is often an upcharge to getting the frame. So when discussing Disc vs. cantis or Vs, one can either find the discs far too expensive, or if one is cool with that, then one should consider also the very best cantis and Vs costing hundreds. So it becomes a BB7 vs Pauls cantis argument, etc....

-Discs are clunky heavy, and get in the way of stuff like racks and fenders, though that is all workable. The problem isn't can these things be done, but will one successfully navigate it, one needs to get a pattern to follow from someone who has already done what you want to do.

- Discs accelerate frame wear, and force one to ride uncomfortably stiff forks and stays. This is major. Remember, those parts are your ride in the absence of suspension. This could also get into the roadside repair argument. One thing to get some guy with a torch to weld your chainstay back together, another entirely if it has concentrated loads from a disc.

Overall it is thumbs down for me. I have been talking for years about doing a custom that would have cantis front and back, and a disc in the front. I actually believe for the elephant end of the spectrum (which you aren't) The model is more redundant braking on tandems. But again, this sport is average speed 10 miles per hour, no mud wallows. Huge premium to simplicity, and riding all day past potential spare parts. Again, it is the mind set thing of talking vs doing. Sure Discs might be the future of touring bikes, they are on every other vehicle, but reality is being out there, and dealing with what is, versus what might be. I would accept there will be a day when it's wet and your will wish you had more positive brakes. But then if you want positive get petersens front and back (or do research on all the various tandem super cantis etc...). That is part of the reason I went to Pauls, so that on those days when I wondered how smart it was to trust my life to a pair of 16 dollar Nashbar brakes (quite nice really), I could look down and see the best of the best execution wise, squeaking hapily away on the bike, knowing they weren't going to snap or something.

If I was doing an Alaska-South America ride right now, and had the money, then I would get a Co-Motion Pangea with disk brakes:

http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/pangea.html

I have their Americano, with dual disks, and while I was on the fence for a while regarding the disk-vs-rim brake question, I've recently been coming to appreciate disks a bit more. Reason being, we have quite a big hill nearby where I live, going up to Kneeland. It's a steep, windy 5 mile hill. I've directly compared doing this hill with both my V-brake Rocky Mountain Sherpa, and my Avid BB7 Americano. On the way back down the hill on the Sherpa, the rims got really hot and I needed to stop very frequently. Maybe other people would do this hill faster than me, but it's so steep and with many tight bends, and rough road quality, that I don't feel comfortable letting myself go to build up too much speed - it would be very easy to lose control. So it's very heavy on the brakes. On the Americano I feel much more confident coming down that hill (it has 203mm rotors). The brakes do still heat up a lot, to the point in fact where the rotors are rubbing more than usual (I guess they expand with the heat?), but I don't have the same worries about potentially blowing out the tires, and there is the knowledge in the back of my mind that I'm not slowly grinding away the wheel rims.

I would use the Pangea rather than the Americano simply because 26" wheels would be more appropriate for a trip of that magnitude - easier to find replacement wheels, tubes and tires, and the 26" wheel is just intrinsically stronger than the 700C wheel, all other things being equal.

Neil

I have discs on my Sutra, I like 'em. The mounting issues for racks and fenders aren't really issues. It took me maybe another...fifteen minutes to mount my fenders? Mind you, I have seen some people with some pretty awful mounting jobs. I think this has more to do with the owner's mechanical skills (or lack thereof), than the discs. The new bikes with the inside-mounted calipers are better still. Of course, I bought the Tubus Disco rear rack, so that made life easier.

Frame-wear is not an issue, don't be silly. The forks and whatnot have to be stiffer, of course, but we're talking about adventure touring, which means 32s for tires, minimum. I defy anyone to tell the difference between a canti-bike and a disc bike, both running 32s, based on 'frame flex' alone.

Thanks for your help!

To be certain, I would have a preference for the Fargo over the LHT. It seems better built, better for my purposes and generally just a better deal.

Discs are better in the rain, cable discs are very powerful (I would even say bordering on overkill for a road bike)

Certainly, it won't entirely mitigate wheel destruction, but I feel it will go atleast some way to doing so. If I taco a wheel, I taco a wheel and I am resigned to the "sit in a hotel, wait for mail order" approach. There will be less rim wear, and my weight (even loaded) will be less than the body weight of many riders out there, so 36h, sturdily built MTB oriented wheels should last atleast this tour, IMO.

Frame wear is only really an issue on early 90s alloy mtb's which had disc mounts, but didn't have the tubing spec to handle disc brakes. Should be fine. By all accounts the fargo is, like most surly and salsa stuff, bordering on being overbuilt in the extreme.

The co-motion would be an incredible bike, but in reality I would be looking at $7k Australian Dollars to get set up on one. The fargo would be under $2.5k.

If you're having troubles with the discs "rubbing" the rotors are prolly just dirty, or the pads fouled, or the disc warped. Hydro's self adjust (as the pads wear, a little air moves behind the pistons, pushing them further towards the disc) which bb7s require manual adjustment via the "big red knob" on the caliper body.

I understand that moving away from 26in wheels is a compromise, of sorts. However, I feel riding 26in wheels is more of a compromise. I therefore feel that a 29in (700c) disc bike mitigates the disadvantages of a 700c rim braked bike, while having some other advantages as a bonus (better brakes, especially in the wet).

I don't think frame wear is a big issue, it is just a discussable issue. If you are planing on taking a mountainbike, I asume it is a non-issue. The touring segment is different. I have a stock touring fork with disc mount on it, and it is enormously heavy, it is a zero ride quality fork. Putting them on road weight stuff and you do have unaccounted for loads. I have seen where people suffered damage. A lot of touring and cyclo cross stuff is the same stuff, which might have something to do with it.

OK, at the risk of stating the obvious....

Not a lot of people have attempted, let alone completed, 15,000+ mile tours, mostly through 3rd world nations. I doubt the dude at your LBS is one of that elite few. ;)

IMO you should spend a bit of time doing some research on people who have done rides like what you're planning, and check out their equipment.

On a side note, I don't know how long disc brakes tend to survive, but I'd be a tad surprised if you can do 15k miles on a set without lots of maintenance, possibly even a complete overhaul. This kind of maintenance is going to be much easier with cantis than discs.

By the way, why is 26" an "unacceptable" compromise? I doubt you'd even notice the difference between 26" and 700c once the bike is loaded.

+1

"I doubt you'd even notice the difference between 26" and 700c once the bike is loaded. "

Particularly if the 700c you are used to is normally clad in racing skins, while the 26 will be 1" larger with touring tires on, which could none the less be slicks.

This isn't really a typical LBS. One of the guys has ridden Byron Bay to Shark Bay (Australia, East to West), another has done a full loop. They sponsor most of the single speed place getters from the Australian 24hr solo championships. Half of the employees have done the kiwi brevet, 3 of them were among the few finishers of the Audax Australia Sydney-Melbourne ride.

But anyway.

I think a 56-58cm road bike with 26in wheels is a frankenbike. With modern rims and spokes, I see no reason not to ride a smoother, faster, more stable wheeled bike. Tubes aren't an issue, as 26in tubes stretch onto a 29in rim.

Discs require less maintainence than rim brakes, which I can do with a multi tool and a set of pliers. They have less moving parts, also. The only real "moving" part is a return spring, which can be replaced with pliers, and a new one comes with a set of pads. Pads last longer than a set of rim brake pads, especially in the wet. Same for rims. A spray of wd-40 clears with pad changes clears out the pistons.

I simply have a preference for a bigger wheeled bike. There are people riding downhill on 29in bikes now. The roads for half of this trip (atleast) will be ashphalt. Bigger wheel = bigger gear, smoother ride, better handling. Riding a bike that handles well for 9 months is preferable, to me, than a slightly extended stay in bolivia (or wherever) waiting for mail order parts to appear. Mail order places ship to within a hitch hike or bus ride of everywhere in South America.

To put it most simply, a bigger wheeled bike puts your centre of gravity lower relative to the hubs, but higher relative to the ground. Therefore, you are more stable and have more ground clearance.

On a side note, I don't know how long disc brakes tend to survive, but I'd be a tad surprised if you can do 15k miles on a set without lots of maintenance, possibly even a complete overhaul. This kind of maintenance is going to be much easier with cantis than discs.

What would a "complete" overhaul consist of for a set of Avid BB7s? Swapping pads and rotors? Installing a new brake cable? That's about all you can do to them and none of it is at all difficult... Not like, say, installing a new set of pads on canti brakes and then trying to get them adjusted so that they don't squeal but still provide stopping power :D

What would a "complete" overhaul consist of for a set of Avid BB7s? Swapping pads and rotors? Installing a new brake cable? That's about all you can do to them and none of it is at all difficult... Not like, say, installing a new set of pads on canti brakes and then trying to get them adjusted so that they don't squeal but still provide stopping power :D

If you can't fix it with WD-40 and packing tape, you're not using enough.

just pick a 29er
and your choice of racks
or none at all
Carousel Design Works frame bags... www.CarouselDesignWorks.com

your tour is going to somewhat depend on how much money you want to spend while enroute
the less you carry pretty much means the more you are going to source from your immediate environ... food/shelter

www.AsanaCycles.com

What would a "complete" overhaul consist of for a set of Avid BB7s? Swapping pads and rotors? Installing a new brake cable? That's about all you can do to them and none of it is at all difficult... Not like, say, installing a new set of pads on canti brakes and then trying to get them adjusted so that they don't squeal but still provide stopping power :D

honestly... your right on
I've been using Avid Mechs for over 10 years now.
I have them on 3 out of 4 of my bikes, the 4th bike is a road bike with Zipps

replace a rotor? probably will not have to .
replace cables? probably not
it comes down to pads.

typically I go thru 3 sets of pads per year on my Big Dummy
2 to 3 sets on my Hunter 29er per year

i ride 20 to 40hrs/weeks

This isn't really a typical LBS. One of the guys has ridden Byron Bay to Shark Bay (Australia, East to West), another has done a full loop. They sponsor most of the single speed place getters from the Australian 24hr solo championships. Half of the employees have done the kiwi brevet, 3 of them were among the few finishers of the Audax Australia Sydney-Melbourne ride.

But anyway.

I think a 56-58cm road bike with 26in wheels is a frankenbike. With modern rims and spokes, I see no reason not to ride a smoother, faster, more stable wheeled bike. Tubes aren't an issue, as 26in tubes stretch onto a 29in rim.

Discs require less maintainence than rim brakes, which I can do with a multi tool and a set of pliers. They have less moving parts, also. The only real "moving" part is a return spring, which can be replaced with pliers, and a new one comes with a set of pads. Pads last longer than a set of rim brake pads, especially in the wet. Same for rims. A spray of wd-40 clears with pad changes clears out the pistons.

I simply have a preference for a bigger wheeled bike. There are people riding downhill on 29in bikes now. The roads for half of this trip (atleast) will be ashphalt. Bigger wheel = bigger gear, smoother ride, better handling. Riding a bike that handles well for 9 months is preferable, to me, than a slightly extended stay in bolivia (or wherever) waiting for mail order parts to appear. Mail order places ship to within a hitch hike or bus ride of everywhere in South America.

To put it most simply, a bigger wheeled bike puts your centre of gravity lower relative to the hubs, but higher relative to the ground. Therefore, you are more stable and have more ground clearance.

just use a 29er Tubeless set up with some latex sealant

http://www.asanacycles.com/Asana_Cycles/10_Tour_Divide/Entries/2010/6/18_Tour_Divide__Day_8%2C_Lincoln_into_the_Helena_National_Forest.html

This thread is a continuation of my last, but is different enought that I thought it should start on a fresh page.

Previous thread here : http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?672006-Build-questions

In summary, I was thinking of a LHT build for an alaska-south america ride.

The recurring criticism was in relation to wheels. I don't want to spend 9 months on a 26in-wheeled road bike, but have also been made aware of the problem of wheel availability and lifespan (ie, i may need 1, more likely 2 new rims, given the length of my planned route.) This would probably be a PITA.

I went to my friendly LBS the other day. They recommended a salsa fargo for my needs. If I all of a sudden become financially stricken, they reccomended a kona sutra. In short, the guy (who has ridden across australia and who I trust) seemed to think that 'disc brakes are the future for touring'.

Is there a consensus on disc brakes for touring? I generally get ~2000km out of a set of pads on a mountain bike, being raced and ridden at race-pace exclusively.

I personally don't see any down-sides. I could easily fit 10+ pairs of Avid pads into the spares kit. I might need new rotors halfway (but I doubt) and it would avoid the rim destruction issue. There are plenty of disc brake rims available in 36h-29in (700c) for mountain bike use.

So - it'd be built up something like this:

Salsa fargo frameset.
King or Cane creek headset
xt 36h disc/mavic a719/dt comp wheels (i'd still like to be able to fit a road wheel in an emergency.
deore cranks w/ middleburn slickshift hardcoat 46/34/24 rings
xt rd
xt fd
deore cassette
avid bb7s
bar - perhaps a titec jones bar, perhaps road drops, perhaps a flat bar.
shifters, levers - depends on bar choice.
bottle cages: 6 of the things (!)
racks: tubus or surly
panniers: ortlieb

Vs. a lht it seems much more solidly built and suitable for geniune trans continental riding. As good as you could get (it seems) without getting a custom built bike. In comparison, a LHT seems somewhat like a day-tourer, even though I know they are not.

Discuss, critique and spew venom for the purpose of my learning, please.

Cheers,
Craig

you want H-bars

I've been toying with the idea of using a set of Sefras Drifters in the 29er size and run them tubeless with some latex sealant, and Stan's rim strips
I've been using Drifters off an on for about 2 years now, and they are really tough tires! roll plenty fast on the pavement, and altho not a dirt tire, I've used them for just that, with not too much of a complaint.

the other option that I'm very fond of are WTB NanoRaptors or Vulpines.
depends on what surface you are going to be riding on.

Hey. I think i've seen your bike on MTBR or something. The tour divide looks awesome.

I've done a lot of lightweight backpacking, and i'll pretty much carry the same gear + tools. Prolly run marathon plus 1.5s as a road tyre, so no real need to go tubeless.

Part of the desire to get a fargo is motivated by doing some firetrail detours in the US, as well as the fact that, apparantly, there are some pretty decent trail building projects going on in Patagonia. It'd be nice to have the option to unbolt the panniers and get dirty for a bit.

Hey. I think i've seen your bike on MTBR or something. The tour divide looks awesome.

I've done a lot of lightweight backpacking, and i'll pretty much carry the same gear + tools. Prolly run marathon plus 1.5s as a road tyre, so no real need to go tubeless.

Part of the desire to get a fargo is motivated by doing some firetrail detours in the US, as well as the fact that, apparantly, there are some pretty decent trail building projects going on in Patagonia. It'd be nice to have the option to unbolt the panniers and get dirty for a bit.

you probably have seen my posts on MTBR.com
my user name there is SelfPropelledDevo

you are onto something there with the notions you have to touring.

my only personal issue with The Fargo, is that its a bit too much of a touring bike for me.
I'd opt for a 29er, and try some Old Man Mountain racks. www.OldManMountain.com

Those racks are sweet.

Thanks. That does open up the field... I feel a(nother) karate monkey also getting a look in now.

gah. headaches. how'd you find the tour divide?

I tour on a Vaya, and rode the most of the Colorado part of the Divide trail this year. I'm sold on disks for touring, commuting and general riding. Regarding 700c - I had a problem finding a 700c tire in Texas, New Mexico and Colorado, last tour.

Of 26 and 27" tires, there were plenty, but I had to ride 130 miles to find any 700 rubber.

Thanks for the help guys. I got a fargo frame yesterday. I'll end up doing something like this to it

titec j-bars
concor light
xt running gear except:
middleburn hardcoat slickshift rings (last ages)
campy record 9v chains (best chain ever made)
deore cranks (have a spare set, stiff enough)
thomson post (have a spare 27.2, unbreakable)
slx/comp/mavic a719 36h wheels, brass prolock nipples
cane creek s3 headset
marathon plus tyres
bb7s

tubus or surly racks
ortlieb panniers

Cheers,
Craig

Just remember, no weight on the front end.

There are many, many fargos being ridden thousands of kilometres. AFAIK, there is one person on the internet who has reported a wildly unstable front end. Salsa seemed to think that it was a defective or damaged fork, and all it smacked of one big, self-indulgent internet argument.

I saw 4-5 Fargos on the GDMBR this year. All riders were raving about their bike's handing - especially when panniers were loaded front and rear. Also, my partner on his loaded Fargo consistently rode technical sections that I (a lousy mountain biker) deemed to walk - even with my IF Deluxe hardtail.

Any bike can be made to shimmy. And the Fargo owners I met were mystified by the controversy.

There are many, many fargos being ridden thousands of kilometres. AFAIK, there is one person on the internet who has reported a wildly unstable front end. Salsa seemed to think that it was a defective or damaged fork, and all it smacked of one big, self-indulgent internet argument.

I don't know if it's me you were referring to, or that other thread on the Adventure Cycling forums:

http://www.adventurecycling.org/forums/index.php?topic=6948.0

In any case, I had shimmy on my Fargo when I tested it with front and rear panniers. It was the main reason I sold the bike - I loved the Fargo otherwise, but I really wanted a touring bike that could handle a full touring load. I wasn't overloading, there was only ~10 lbs in each pannier. More details here:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/board/message/?thread_id=131455&page=8&nested=0#140451

I have not had any shimmy issues with either my Co-Motion Americano, or the Rocky Mountain Sherpa 10. Some people seem to want to pin down shimmy to having one cause, but I think shimmy is caused by a large number of combined factors, including frame stiffness, geometry, fork rake & trail, rider weight and riding position, position & weight of panniers etc, even things like tire damage. No bike builder can guarantee that a bike won't shimmy under any circumstances, because the conditions and variables are so complex. It's a question of the bike resonating and oscillating in accordance to its natural harmonic frequency (everthing has one), and you just hope to get a bike that doesn't hit that frequency and resonate under any of the conditions in which you ride it. I've had a number of previous bikes that shimmied under load, and I got the distinct impression that the wobble was caused (or helped along) by the frame not being stiff enough, and flexing fore-aft. I could feel this happening when the bike was loaded up. In the case of my Americano, I believe that the stiffness of the frame helps to damp down any flexing to stop this oscillation from getting started, and the result is a rock solid ride even with full load. In the case of the Fargo, I get the impression that the fork trail may have been larger than usual (on the version I had, maybe they've changed it now), and as a result putting a load on the front could make the steering feel "floppy" (this is a word that a Salsa rep used when I called to ask them about this). Although many people seem to have no problems with putting a front load on the Salsa Fargo, I did hit that "sweet spot", and apparently so did some other people (e.g. the guy in the Adventure Cycling thread). This doesn't negate the bike itself, but it's silly to suggest that any bike is perfect in all respects. Just because some people get shimmy doesn't mean you have to circle the wagons and tell them they are riding it wrong or even delusional. It just happened for them, so take it as another data point. It happened for me too. Some people get shimmy with the Long Haul Trucker, and I think I remember reading about someone once getting a bit of shimmy on their Americano too, and I had shimmy on my Bruce Gordon Rock n Road - no bike is immune, you just have to find what works for you. I don't think the Fargo is a crap bike, in fact I may get another one down the line because it really turned me onto the 29er concept (love those 700C fat tires). I read somewhere that Salsa has tweaked the trail on the latest Fargo, so maybe they are trying to address the problem I had.

Neil

I've toured with v-brakes and discs...paved roads, dry dirt roads and muddy roads. I'm not overly impressed with discs for a touring bike, but like almost any component choice you can make it work.

In relation to discs and v-brakes for touring:

- disc brakes will over heat just like a rim brake so managing heat loads on decents is a skill you need either way
- with a rim brake you'll get replacement parts that work well enough to carry on riding in any town where there is a bicycle
- disc brakes put a lot of stress on the fork and spokes on the wheel in a non-symmetric way [I've heard of long distance tourists braking spokes on the brake side of their wheels....it's worth doing a bit of research to see if you need extra spares in this regard]
- if you use drop bars ensure your brake levers are made for use with discs so they pull the req'd amount of cable with the necessary force for good modulation

Personally I wouldn't go out of my way to put disc brakes on my touring bike for a trip like yours and I'd prefer to use 26" wheels, but at the same time if you gave me a 700c disc brake touring bike I was comfortable on and the $$$/time off to do the ride I wouldn't spend my time obsessing over those issues....I'd just start pedalling!

As you ride south from AK you'll have a few obvious maintenance/resupply spots along the route:

- Vancouver BC/Seattle WA are far enough along that you'll have figured out any issues you want to resolve in terms of gear.
- San Diego is a logical place to do an overhaul with access to a wide variety of low cost parts so you head into Mexico with everything in tip top shape on your bike.
- I'd probably stop somewhere pleasant in SA and have my friends/GF come for a visit since it was such a long trip...they could bring any parts I needed to overhaul my bike and get it ready for the last leg to the tip of SA.

Whatever bike you get take the time to do a multi-week trip on it before your big adventure so you can dial in the fit and your gear setup. Starting in AK you are tackling a really remote and challenging section of your route first so you want to be 100% confident in your rig.

My front and rear pannier loaded Americano occasionally shimmies without warning when I'm descending. The wobbles cease when I place both hands on the hoods. When the road surface changes I can go back to playing my guitar.

I've toured with v-brakes and discs...paved roads, dry dirt roads and muddy roads. I'm not overly impressed with discs for a touring bike, but like almost any component choice you can make it work.

In relation to discs and v-brakes for touring:

- disc brakes will over heat just like a rim brake so managing heat loads on decents is a skill you need either way
- with a rim brake you'll get replacement parts that work well enough to carry on riding in any town where there is a bicycle
- disc brakes put a lot of stress on the fork and spokes on the wheel in a non-symmetric way [I've heard of long distance tourists braking spokes on the brake side of their wheels....it's worth doing a bit of research to see if you need extra spares in this regard]
- if you use drop bars ensure your brake levers are made for use with discs so they pull the req'd amount of cable with the necessary force for good modulation

Personally I wouldn't go out of my way to put disc brakes on my touring bike for a trip like yours and I'd prefer to use 26" wheels, but at the same time if you gave me a 700c disc brake touring bike I was comfortable on and the $$$/time off to do the ride I wouldn't spend my time obsessing over those issues....I'd just start pedalling!



After hauling 50 lbs in panniers or a BOB a total of 25k miles with bikes having disc brakes I would have to weigh in that I am also ambivalent about them versus rim brakes. Descending on asphalt, chances are you're taking the lane and letting it rip, not doing much braking. You might be wet, but you're likely to be relatively clean. You're also much lighter than a disc-equipped tandem and you're only contending with your perception of risk. OTOH, if it's snowing you want discs.

On dirt, however, you need to be in much more control and if there's mud you'd be glad for discs.

So if the OP wasn't expecting to ride on the dirt and/or in the snow, there would be no reason to seek out disc brakes.

Cable disc . Avid 7 , if you use the same disc front and rear then packing one spare covers both,
I'd Bring a 3rd caliper and some spare friction pads.

theyre common In NA but I cant Project that for SA.

some spare parts for the pannier hooks.

Have someone willing to Airmail stuff to you along the way, in case you chose wrong ..
and can't find spares in like Guatemala or Bolivia.

My friends who did the AK to Tierra del Fuego and back ride say definitely 26". South of the US border most people have never seen a 700c wheel. But best of luck to you! You might make it on the original wheels with the discs. Either build them yourself or have your LBS do it, with you watching. Have them check every spoke for tension and get them as even as humanly possible. Then do it again after 500 miles. There's no good reason for them not to make it.

If you can't fix it with WD-40 and packing tape, you're not using enough.

I once saw a "handyman's home repair kit" that consisted of WD-40 and a large roll of duct tape. That's really about all you need.

After hauling 50 lbs in panniers or a BOB a total of 25k miles with bikes having disc brakes I would have to weigh in that I am also ambivalent about them versus rim brakes. Descending on asphalt, chances are you're taking the lane and letting it rip, not doing much braking. You might be wet, but you're likely to be relatively clean. You're also much lighter than a disc-equipped tandem and you're only contending with your perception of risk. OTOH, if it's snowing you want discs.

On dirt, however, you need to be in much more control and if there's mud you'd be glad for discs.

So if the OP wasn't expecting to ride on the dirt and/or in the snow, there would be no reason to seek out disc brakes.The OP is going to be doing a lot of riding on dirt and gravel, including passes. Another benefit of discs is that if a wheel develops a problem, you can usually keep riding safely as long as it still fits in the fork or between the seatstays.

On dirt, however, you need to be in much more control and if there's mud you'd be glad for discs.

So if the OP wasn't expecting to ride on the dirt and/or in the snow, there would be no reason to seek out disc brakes.

I rode hundreds of KMs of muddy dirt roads on a heavily loaded touring bike with discs [Avid BB7s] and the benefit was only lack of rim wear. There was so much mud flying around that it was getting into the caliper and on the rotor so your first application of the brakes was sketchy and the pads wore very quickly. Under those conditions I'd be replacing pads every week for sure.

I've used BB7s and v-brakes extensively - I don't see much difference in performance. If I braked using poor technique I'd over heat both systems, but since I don't do that I don't have overheating issues even with my 20" wheel v-brake equipped touring bike. Nor is it an issue you hear any special mention of on the Bike Friday [16" & 20" wheeled rim brake folding touring bikes] email list.

I think the best case for discs is lack of rim wear, but you are trading that for less ubiquitous parts availability in your braking system so it's not a clear cut winner in my books. You'd have look closely at what matters most to you and the resupply/part availability of the areas you are touring in.

As you indicate I don't brake all that much when touring so I'm not going to be wearing out rims quickly. Other folks may ride the same roads with similar bikes and brake a ton. Depending which camp you fall into would sway the decision to use discs or not.

I bought a touring ride with discs, the sutra. Personally i have had zero issues with racks. I've never bent a rotor so badly that i couldn't take some pliers and bend it back. I understand the concerns about increased torque, but the design of the bicycle should accommodate that. Is my fork like a slab of iron? no, it is quadruple butted "p2" fork that kona uses everywhere(it has rim brake mounts) on it's bicycles... So far it's fine, though i would suspect it's mostly the 32s and proper pressure that improve the ride.

For sure you can get around with v-brakes or cantis. The discs are just lower maintenance and perform predictably in a variety of situations/roads - which is common on tour. I wouldn't let the tail wag the dog about them, but discs are nice to have.

OK this thread has gotten a bit mental.

I've got a salsa fargo frame now, so it isn't really a matter of pros and cons.

I'm riding off road. I plan to either do the GDMBR, or follow the route, depending on whether I get to the start line in Banff in time.

I chose discs for a few reasons.
- I want 700c/29er wheels, or 26in wheels with suspension for the race. big wheels are less likely to go wrong than suspension, so I want big wheels. I also think the ride of big wheels is far superior to small ones, and I don't want to be sitting on a poorly handling bike for 9-12 months.

- since I want big wheels, which by all accounts are difficult to get in some places, I chose disc brakes to reduce rim wear. This gives me the best chance of getting to the end in tact, without stopping for servicing/airmail etc.

- they brake better in rain and mud.

- the brake pads last longer than rim brake pads, which means less maintainence

-they're just as fixable as a v-brake.

-i'll be doing my first 10-15,000km in north america. If something goes wrong there, then spares are very easy to get. I don't think i'd get spares in, say, cuba or bolivia for any modern bicycle. Riding a worse bike that will need more maintainence just because you might get spares for it more easily seems illogical.

- there are plenty of mountain bikers (who use... disc brakes) and road cyclists (who use... 700c rims) in Brazil, Columbia, Argentina, and Chile. I know people who live in Peru and Bolivia. That means the only place I will be SOL for spares is (maybe) Mexico, Bolivia, Peru and Panama. I'll happily hitchhike to an urban centre and await a chain reaction cycles or starbike or wiggle order while doing laundry and sleeping in a bed.

I hate to be snarky to the retro-tastic touring types here, but it isn't 1972 anymore - there are far better ways to stop a bike than canti brakes.

The wheels will be 36h SLX hubs/comp spokes/mavic a719 rims brass pro-lock nipples. That's about 400g more metal than the wheels I use for racing, which I ride much harder and which go 3-5000 miles before needing attention. They're about 1,000g heavier than my road bike wheels, which last similarly as long

Carrying a spare spoke or ten is sensible. I've always planned on doing so. Shimano hubs are such that front and rear hubs have the same flange-flange and pitch circle, which means that they use the same length spokes front and rear (usually). I can fix a wheel, but I'm not going to build them, because a professional will do a better job.

My bike is pretty much settled. I have far more pressing concerns, like how not to be eaten by a bear/mountain lion/lumberjack.

Cheers,
Craig

OK this thread has gotten a bit mental.

...
My bike is pretty much settled. I have far more pressing concerns, like how not to be eaten by a bear/mountain lion/lumberjack.

Cheers,
Craig

Carry an airzound, blast em every once in a while when the bush is thick.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdWzxdhoyX4

next you'll want to consider a tubeless set up with some latex sealant, along with a set of either Vulpines or Nanos.

possibly an H-Bar if not already

I hate to be snarky to the retro-tastic touring types here, but it isn't 1972 anymore - there are far better ways to stop a bike than canti brakes.

You get tried of the snarky retro-grouch tourists here?....I sympathize I get tired of the Disc brake "second coming of the promised brake" crowd...;)

I use mech discs on a few bikes, hydraulic discs on a couple others, road calipers on one bike, v-brakes on a bunch. I've toured with both v-brakes and discs. I've toured hundreds of kms of muddy roads and not been impressed by discs. They aren't bad, but they aren't God's gift to bike tourists or cyclists in general.

I try any bike tech that looks promising. I run multiple bikes so I can ride v-brakes back to back with discs, IGHs back to back with derailleurs. If you gave me a blank check to build a touring bike to ride from AK to the tip of SA I wouldn't put disc brakes on it and I've tried lots of braking options.

Then again I wouldn't buy a Fargo or ride a 29er on that trip...maybe there is something wrong with me...:D

You get tried of the snarky retro-grouch tourists here?....I sympathize I get tired of the Disc brake "second coming of the promised brake" crowd...;)

I use mech discs on a few bikes, hydraulic discs on a couple others, road calipers on one bike, v-brakes on a bunch. I've toured with both v-brakes and discs. I've toured hundreds of kms of muddy roads and not been impressed by discs. They aren't bad, but they aren't God's gift to bike tourists or cyclists in general.

I try any bike tech that looks promising. I run multiple bikes so I can ride v-brakes back to back with discs, IGHs back to back with derailleurs. If you gave me a blank check to build a touring bike to ride from AK to the tip of SA I wouldn't put disc brakes on it and I've tried lots of braking options.

Then again I wouldn't buy a Fargo or ride a 29er on that trip...maybe there is something wrong with me...:D

Man, why don't you ooze some more passive aggressive op hate... lol

Man, why don't you ooze some more passive aggressive op hate... lol

Hahaha...sorry I just get mad when people make me face the fact it's not 1972 anymore...;)

Hahaha...sorry I just get mad when people make me face the fact it's not 1972 anymore...;)

I'm just glad it's not 1932 anymore... I would hate to be forced to rock a roller brake!

I used to wear out a set of MTB wheels between Nov to March when I used pinch brakes, simply bcz I'd wear a groove into the sidewall, and the wheel would fail. only bcz I'd never be able to keep up with keeping the wheels clean of mud, and the brake pads free of grit.

I think it was '99 when I changed to Avid Mechs. never looked back.

Breaking News Flash issues aside, this is quite an ambitious trip, I wish you the best.
Been interesting reading, seems to me the main thing is that you have lots of experience with disks, so know what to expect and what to do to maintain/repair them.

in '72 I was using back-pedal brakes (well, brake actually) and I was having fun.

Gotta say, that having been around in 72, one was lucky enough to have a deraileur bike in NA, let alone one with cantis. Though here is a patent for discs on bikes dating back to 71-72:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRWmpSE-hXk


Also, 700c, or better still, 27" is the retro wheel choice on touring bikes.

So who is being retro? :)

Peter, that link is a brazen attempt at misleading us, though I dont want to get into a spat with you ( I still watched it though, pretty nice work he does)

Oops, I guess I need some more work with this new netbook! Misleading wise the other link wasn't much better, just a generic patent filed in 71-72. I was just wondering whether with the way that bike stuff works whether it was more likely there would be an early disc than canti brake siting. Cantis are pretty bike specific while the first person to put something like disc on a bike could date back to the penny farthing. Anyone know a good eveolution of the bike type timeline for tech?