Foo - Metric vs. "Standard"

Why doesn't the U.S. completely switch to the metric system? Our cars all use meteric nuts and bolts. The same is true for our bicycles. I just ordered a set of GTR plans from Greenspeed. It's strange. The plans are in metric but the tube sizes are in "standard". I'm always going back and forth. I'm beginning to understand why NASA is losing so many probes.

We have been wondering that for years. Can't be ease of use. If you can't count by 10 then surely fractions must just boggle the mind.

I heard it would just be too costly for the U.S. to convert all it's manufacturing to the metric system.

I thought it was just because it was invented by the French.

I remeber when i was in school a date was set for the us to "Officially" convert to the metric system.

I can't remember if i was in grade school or junior high.

But complaints from the people (us) stoppedit, and it was never heard from again.

i wish the metric system was the only system. physics is hard enough! damn scaredy ass conservatives! conserve this tradition conserve that tradition, blah blah blah.... dumbasses!!

yeah. karlfitt, I remember that too. How old are you?

But complaints from the people (us) stoppedit, and it was never heard from again.

That's democracy in action folks. It doesn't matter if it's the best decision, as long as it's the most popular.

Why doesn't the U.S. completely switch to the metric system? Our cars all use meteric nuts and bolts. The same is true for our bicycles. I just ordered a set of GTR plans from Greenspeed. It's strange. The plans are in metric but the tube sizes are in "standard". I'm always going back and forth. I'm beginning to understand why NASA is losing so many probes.

I remember a big push to go metric back when Jimmy Carter was President. Signs got put on the highways with both, and we started learning metric. It didn't go over well at all. I mean as kids we were picking it up and all, but it seemed that we, as a total population, just weren't willing to make the change.

Here in Alabama there was an attempt back in the 90s to go metric. Mile markers were given in kilometers and miles. This created a problem for state troopers and emergency workers. Someone would have a car reck and give the kilometer marking and ment mile marking. Ambulances would be on th other side of the state looking for people because they had the mile markers confused with the kilometer marking. They took down all the metric marking though.

I find the meteric system far superior. Base on 10 what else could be easier. Even the U.S. Army uses the metric system. It doesn't take that long to learn. Conversion are far easier.

I think metric's a better system but it would be too redicuously hard to convert everything.

How so? Everytime you buy a bag of chips or a Coke it has metric and standard units. You car has miles per hour and kilometers per hour on the same dial. It seem that th U.S. is running in 50/50 mode right now. Why would completely converting be expensive?

Learn metric? That's like an oxymoron.

I thought it was just because it was invented by the French.

The Metric System and the Saxophone are the 2 things the French did contribute to the betterment of mankind.

How so? Everytime you buy a bag of chips or a Coke it has metric and standard units. You car has miles per hour and kilometers per hour on the same dial. It seem that th U.S. is running in 50/50 mode right now. Why would completely converting be expensive?


North America is slowly going metric...inch by inch.

Even in Canada I buy lumber in lengths of feet.

At work (a surveyor), I may think in feet but takes notes in metric - I.e. That's about 1 foot.......write down 0.3 metres. :rolleyes:

Digger

Not all things are better in metric. Woodworking, for instance, works better with fractions of an inch rather than centimeters and millimeters, since centering an item naturally works with fractions. Also, your average woodworker can't figure fractions of a millimeter.

Now, in things such as bicycles, yes, we should probably move completely to the metric system, to keep everything common

Not all things are better in metric. Woodworking, for instance, works better with fractions of an inch rather than centimeters and millimeters, since centering an item naturally works with fractions. Also, your average woodworker can't figure fractions of a millimeter.

Now, in things such as bicycles, yes, we should probably move completely to the metric system, to keep everything common


You could use a decimal point - 0.1mm, 1.4mm, 10.8mm, etc.

The Metric System and the Saxophone are the 2 things the French did contribute to the betterment of mankind.

the saxophone was invented by adolphe sax, a belgian. the french saxophone builders at the henri selmer company did make a lot of excellent saxophones in their day, however.

North America is slowly going metric...inch by inch.

Even in Canada I buy lumber in lengths of feet.

At work (a surveyor), I may think in feet but takes notes in metric - I.e. That's about 1 foot.......write down 0.3 metres. :rolleyes:

Digger

I made fun up top but really I do the same. I refuse to know my heigh in cm...and pounds are the only weight to measure weight regardless of labels. Maybe it because I was in school during the changeover in the 80's but I can visualize a kg. I can EASILY figure out how big 6'5 and 270pounds is. And when I worked in the factories back east I found imperial much easier. But that is probably again because I learned imperial first.

the saxophone was invented by adolphe sax, a belgian. the french saxophone builders at the henri selmer company did make a lot of excellent saxophones in their day, however.

Cicadashell, you must be from the University of Michgan. Are you a saxophonist?

Good points, the saxophone patent was issued in Paris, France in 1846. Also, Adophle Sax, Jr. sold one of his factories to Henri Selmer and in 1920 Selmer began making saxophones. I think that is the primary reason Selmers are so popular it tis the only link we have to the creator of the world's greatest instrument :)

yeah. karlfitt, I remember that too. How old are you?



You mean you want me to admit in public my age??? :D :D


P.S. I'm 44

I prefer metric to inches because I've found it to be more accurate when measuring.

I also think that part of the reason the US has had such a hard time converting is because we listed the metric equivalent to the "standard" we were used to. A 12-oz can of Coke is 355ml, instead of selling it as a 350ml can, for example. If manufacturers would have sold their products in nice even metric amounts, people would have had to adapt. Just recently I noticed that soda is available in .5 liter bottles, which equate to 16.9 oz (I think). I'd much rather buy a 500 ml bottle of Dr Pepper than a 473 ml bottle -- it's easier to say "give me a half-liter bottle" than it is to say, "I'd like a 473 of Dr Pepper."

Cicadashell, you must be from the University of Michgan. Are you a saxophonist?

Good points, the saxophone patent was issued in Paris, France in 1846. Also, Adophle Sax, Jr. sold one of his factories to Henri Selmer and in 1920 Selmer began making saxophones. I think that is the primary reason Selmers are so popular it tis the only link we have to the creator of the world's greatest instrument :)

actually ann arbor is my home town; i've always lived here, although i do have an engineering degree from u-m. the saxophone i learned in high school, at home and in taverns across the region. another reason selmers are popular is that they're really good instruments - big tone and excellent intonation. i have a mark vi tenor (serial # 69,xxx) and it's just incredible.

on topic, i think metric is certainly more straightforward by design, and advantageous for scientists and engineers. imperial is somewhat better suited for everyday use - working in multiples of two and three is easier to visualize than multiples of ten, because with the latter things get really big (or really small) rather quickly. certainly it is easiest, as an adult, to use the system you grew up with. also, the lack of a global standard system poses challenges to commerce. the u.s. appears to be awfully stubborn in its reluctance to convert, but there are serious issues of backwards compatibility to be dealt with (z.b. survey of the public lands, water/sewer infrastructure). for the time being i have room for both sets of tools in my toolbox!

Off topic. VIs are wonderful horns. There was a guy here in T-tonw that found a 80,xxx MarkVI alto in near prestine condition for $2,300!!

I thought it was just because it was invented by the French.

Isn't that a good enough reason to stay with imperial?

If we would have made that transition back in the 70’s when President Carter made the push, my job would be a lot easier.

I but parts for machines that were made in Italy, Austria, Canada and a few from the US. I have to stock standard supplies in Metric and the asinine “Standard” system (which is only standard in the US). With the speed of communication ever increasing foreign trade is following making the need to switch over even more important. We communicate in both at work.

I find it interesting that Pipe sizing is in fractions of an inch no matter where you are. At least that’s been my experience. British Standard Pipe Parallel (BSPP), similar to the US’s Nation Pipe Thread (NPT) is sized in inches and the thread spacing in measured in Thread/Inch.

Rather than swich from standard to metric(where the f did a meter come from anyway) we should keep feet and inches and gallons and dozens but come up with 2 new digets to represent ten and eleven and start teaching kids base twelve rather than base ten.
Base twelve(duodecimal) is far superior for multiplying and divideing and just as good at adding and subtracting compaired to base ten.
The only reason we use base ten is because we have ten fingers, like counting with body parts won't adjust to base twelve easy enough.
That way we won't have to scrap trillions of dollars worth of tools, we can still use fractions, and gain even more ease of use than going metric would.
It's not just industry tools, I know many people who have tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools, most purchased with hard earned cash, some inherited from peole who spent hard earned cash. I'm not talking about jackass suburbonite nascar watching home depot addicts, I'm refering to farmers, part time mechanics, and small business owners who need these tools as part of their livelyhood and would not be able to afford a whole new set just to please some fool who can't read a tape measure and/or just wants to keep up with the Jones(europe).

If Nasa wants to go metric so it dosen't lose probes to convertion errors than NASA can go metric, the construction of a Mars probe doesn't have any bearing on the day to day of the rest of the country.
:p:p

And doing conversions and arithmetic in 10's is far simpler as well compared to base 12. It goes well beyond counting on fingers and toes.

Base twelve(duodecimal) is far superior for multiplying and divideing


Why is duodecimal easier to multiply and divide with?

Because 12 x 12 = 144...come on everyone knows that.

Wow, that's heaps easier than 10 x 10 = 100. :rolleyes:

Because 12 x 12 = 144...come on everyone knows that.

actually, in base twelve, the answer to "twelve times twelve" is written "100".

actually, in base twelve, the answer to "twelve times twelve" is written "100".
hey somone gets it.



Why is duodecimal easier to multiply and divide with?
It has to do with the numbers themselves more than the numerals used. As a visual/physical thing
take ten rocks how may ways can you divide up ten rocks? Five groups of two, and 2 groups of five, and of course ten ones and on ten. those could also be expressed as tenths, fifths, and halves. Thats three fractions.

Now try with twelve rocks. two sixes, three fours, four threes, six twos and of cours twelve ones and one twelve. Expessed as fractions; twelvths, sixths, fourths, thirds, and halves. Thats five fractions.

I know a lot of lay folk will say big deal three fractions vs five fractions but, as this is the base for an entire number system, it is in fact just the tip of the math iceburg.

It took years for most of you to learn just the basics of base 10. I don't expect anyone to learn duodecimal from a few forum posts, if you had spent years learning duodecimal while growing up you would probably wonder what kind of nut would bother with base ten.
Base ten doesen't make any more sense than base fourteen (again only three fractions; fourteenths, sevenths, halves) and either of them is only one step above a prime base(3,5,7,11,13,17,23 etc), even base nine might be better as you can do thirds. :rolleyes:

Because 12 x 12 = 144...come on everyone knows that.
It's called a gross, and yes many people do know that.

(where the f did a meter come from anyway)


It is defined as the length of the path travelled by light in absolute vacuum during a time interval of 1/299,792,458 of a second.

That should clear it up. :roflmao:

We SHOULD also convert to Radians instead of using degrees, minutes and seconds or maybe Grads....?

Ah, for me, I don't care either way. My work is in the mapping/surveying science and can convert between 'em all pretty easily. I even use a mixture like I said. When cycling I like to use kilometres. When building something out of lumber I like to use inches. My weight is in pounds, my milk is in litres, and I cook using ounces.

Ach! Works for me. I'm glad I'm not refueling jets or something...now was that 10,000 pounds of fuel or 10,000 kilograms....?

Digger

Do you have a website on duodecimal system? It sound interesting.

I use metric in teaching diving (much easier to work gas law etc. than imperial).
all my guages etc. are metric.
since we are discussing base systems I vote for binary, or maybe hexadecimal.

Marty

I know how to use duodecimal (I had an evil maths teacher who made us learn how to do maths in base 2,3,4,5,6,8,12,16 and 20. I learnt a hell of a lot.

I found base 2,8,16 and 20 the easiest to use because they have many multiples, however I still find base 10 the easiest (however that's probably because we are brought up with base 10)

It is defined as the length of the path travelled by light in absolute vacuum during a time interval of 1/299,792,458 of a second.

That should clear it up. :roflmao:

....

Digger
Thats what they use as the calibration standard, but where did they come up with that length to begin with? Clear as mud :p



I know how to use duodecimal (I had an evil maths teacher who made us learn how to do maths in base 2,3,4,5,6,8,12,16 and 20. I learnt a hell of a lot.
QUOTE]

What did you use for symbols above 9?
[QUOTE]I use metric in teaching diving (much easier to work gas law etc. than imperial).
all my guages etc. are metric.
since we are discussing base systems I vote for binary, or maybe hexadecimal.
binary is too cumbersom and hexadec can't do thirds. :(

How is diving made easier with metric? Atmospheres and bars are nearly identical. Pounds of air or bars in a tank wouldn't make any difference, when its half gone- its half gone. It seems to me that its much easier to miss a misplaced decimal point when using metric than it is to miss a screwed up fraction or to mistake inches for feet. I know of at least one local million dollar project that was totaly screwed because the made a section ten meters instead of one meter away from another part. :D


Do you have a website on duodecimal system? It sound interesting. Try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal

Thats what they use as the calibration standard, but where did they come up with that length to begin with? Clear as mud :p



I guess you're asking - why THAT particular time interval in a vaccum? Why not 1/30 of a second? Or 1?1,000,000 of a second? And just who decided this anyway?

Well, good question. All I can say is it develop over time. Originally it was based on one ten-millionth of the length of the earth's meridian along a quadrant (through Paris I think). Others based it on the the time period of a pedulum. Then to define a metre some sort of iridum bar at a certain temperture and atmosperic pressure was used - accurate to 1 ten thousandths of a mm. Then again, some sort of wavelength emitted by some sort of radiation (I forget what) was used. But due to changing conditions of the earth, the uncertainty of the earths flattening, temperture and atmosperic change, it was decided to use the speed of light in a vacuum idea.

....jeez, I remember more from my engineering school that I realized. WOW!

Now, how they came up with THAT number I have no idea. Greater minds than mine, I guess. Which isn't hard to find, believe me. :p

So I have to ask - where did a foot come from? Who decided that there are 12 inches in a foot? Why 3 feet in a yard, or 5280 feet in a mile? Yeah I know, something about Egyptians, and measuring using hand spans developed into feet and 1 yard is 3 feet or one full stride or pace of a man.

I am not trying to be argumentative, it's just that this stuff developed over time. I like the metric system, I find it easy to use. But like I said, I use a combo of both depending on what I am doing, it's how I was raised. To add to this I also use the measure of cables and nautical miles in my job.

As you know, a nautical mile varies in length depending on where you are on the earth, but in general terms or the conversion factor is 6078 feet in a nautical mile or 10 cables in a nautical mile. Using miles and cables is better when navigating at sea. Although we produce our charts in metric.

Go figure. Dual systems are gonna be around for awhile I fear. I would prefer metric, but I'm not married to it.

Digger

How is diving made easier with metric?

Kilometers markers would occur almost twice as frequently as mile markers. It seems that it would be easier for 911 callers would be more likely to see a kilo marker from the road. At the most you would only have to walk have a mile. Also, when someone says we're past the 130 mile marker. Well, a mile is a long way. Rescue workers would spend less time wondering where you are.

Also, just for convienece sake when I read travelogues of people in Austrailia and other places. Their distance and speed are given in metric units. They say, "Top speed today was 67kph." I'm going, "What @#%$%$##." Or we did a 19,000 kelometer trip around OZ. Again I thinking what the crap is 19,000 kilometers?

Also, converting from feet to inches to yards just plain sucks. I'm currently building a Greenspeed, I'm gonna use meteric all the way. None of this 7/8 inch crap. Just 22mm, much easier.

How is diving made easier with metric? Atmospheres and bars are nearly identical. Pounds of air or bars in a tank wouldn't make any difference, when its half gone- its half gone1 litre of fresh water = 1 kg, when determing bouyancy one needs to calculate how much
water is displaced by an object. If you know the weight its easy to determine how much
water it displaces (for seawater its 1.03 kg).
For tank volume, and rate of breathing we go back to Basic gas theory, Pressure (in ATMs
1 atm = 10 metres) voume (litres) and temp (use absolute = degree celcius + 273 is much
easier than PSI, feet, and racine temperature).
so yes, 1/2 volume is the same if its PSI or Bar or whatever, but its much easier to calcuate if its metric.
For partial pressure of gases just multiply percent of mix x ATM for a given depth (expressed
in meters is much easier).

so, thats where metric is easier for me. If you want more concrete examples let me know,
I have tons (both metric and imperial) of em!
Marty

More examples, please. This is kind of fun :)

Being from Europe, metric is standard to me :). Inches are generally used to measure timber (width/height, not length) and other similar items, and for drag racers a quarter mile is still a quarter mile, but that is about as far as imperial measurements are used here. Metric just makes more sense to me (like Centigrade, water freezes at 0, and boils at 100 (at sea level at least) - simple). A swedish mile (equaling 10k) is a very good extension to the metric system.

Either way, there's still just 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who don't ;).

/Csson

Yeah, could imagine football (American) on metric. Doh American football based on a metric system. For instance, 10 yards to the first down and 100 yards is the length of the playing field. It's base 10 so yet further prof that metric is better.

Track/Field sprot have made the transition. When I was a kid It was called the "100 yard dash" Now it's the 50 meter or 100 meter dash.

Originally it was based on one ten-millionth of the length of the earth's meridian along a quadrant (through Paris I think). Others based it on the the time period of a pedulum. Then to define a metre some sort of iridum bar at a certain temperture and atmosperic pressure was used - accurate to 1 ten thousandths of a mm. Then again, some sort of wavelength emitted by some sort of radiation (I forget what) was used. But due to changing conditions of the earth, the uncertainty of the earths flattening, temperture and atmosperic change, it was decided to use the speed of light in a vacuum idea.

....jeez, I remember more from my engineering school that I realized. WOW!....

So I have to ask - where did a foot come from? Who decided that there are 12 inches in a foot? Why 3 feet in a yard, or 5280 feet in a mile? Yeah I know, something about Egyptians, and measuring using hand spans developed into feet and 1 yard is 3 feet or one full stride or pace of a man...

Digger
Dam French. Why didn't they just make a meter equal to a yard? That would have made all kinds of convertions easy. Nooooo, they had to pick one millionth of a quadrant of the Earth.
If we used duodecimal converting beween inches and feet would be just like meters and centimeters and millimeters.

Feet used to be the length of an average foot. An inch comes from a French word for thumb(you will find the end of your thumb to the first crease of the first knuckle is about an inch.) So a foot was about twelve thumbs long. Then, just as they did with the meter bar, they made a standard foot bar and thus acurrate measurment was born.

Yes, nautical miles are best at sea, one nautical mile equals one minute of Latitude or one minute of longitude at the equator. For all those who need to know.

Lotek, an Atm is not metric or standard, a bar is metric and slightly larger than an Atm. Atms are one of those universal measurments that go with any system.

I think I'm not getting this love for metric because I veiw metric units the same as standard units and thus they become redundant bits in a larger system. This may be because much of what I do uses variables and dimentionless units like Cd=Rho*v^2*A*D*0.5 you can use metric or US measurements in that formula with the same results, and the units are hardly ever whole, 34.29 mm or 1.35 inches makes no real difference. the same goes for the example Lotek gave I vew gas law not in units but as a formula that uses ratios like "doubling the absolute pressure reduces volume by half" or "cutting the absolute temp buy half reduces volume to half". See no metric, no US standard. :D Go dimentionless, yeaaaa!
On the occation that I'm figuring dimentions for my garden or shed or some such thing I find fractions are much quicker(without rounding accuracy losses! .33 does not = 1/3)
Example: my garden is say 42 feet(or meters) wide and I want a third of that for something =14 feet(or meters) but if its 43 than I have 14 feet+1/3 foot or 4 inches so 14' 4", in metric 43m is approx 14.33 meters. Obviously a garden doesn't need accuracy like that but some things do and if calculations must be made based on those measurments the rounding error will grow with ever step.
(The formula above is for a basic fluid drag coefficiant [wind resistance])

One thing I noticed in your argument for base 12 is that you only mention feet and inches. You don't mention going smaller than an inch. In my field (digital reproduction), I've found that metric is much more accurate and easier to use than Standard. I once found a ruler calibrated in 1/10 of an inch, it was great, MUCH easier to use than the standard 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, etc. ruler, especially when dividing a dimension for multiple-up images on a page. I'd still rather use metric, and do so at every opportunity.

Isn't that a good enough reason to stay with imperial?

hell yeah - lets stick to the old , best , and easiest system..BTW how many feet to a mile?

/m

5280 feet in a mile, I think. I wonder what genius came up with that?

The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 40 rods to the hog's head and that's the way I likes it!