General Cycling Discussion - Your brand new bicycle u-lock is not safe!

A few bike shops in NYC are pulling the locks too. The guys at Gotham Bikes told me they didn't believe it, but once they tried it and it worked they pulled all the Kryptonite off the shelves. I am calling around other bike shops too...

Sorry, pressed post to quickly. What I meant to say was that the lock I got was a lot cheaper, though maybe not quite as secure as the ones you posted above. If you don't want to spend quite that much the American Lock seems a good compromise. I think the NY chain is still the best way to go, so it is just the lock that needs changing. But if you want to get one of these pricey ones I wouldn't blame you. My bike is pretty much priceless to me, so I am willing to spend whatever it takes to keep it safe.


Yeah, I want the security. I will probably just go ahead and order one of the padlocks from these guys. Maybe not this particular store because the guy I was talking to seemed a bit clueless, but I will find the multlock someplace in town and get it there.

Koffee

does this work on the master lock cuffs?

has anyone tried that yet?

Hey Koffee can you post the store that you find that sells the padlock you want?

I'm a bit worn out with this whole situation and really just want a padlock so I don't have to return to this thread and keep beating it to death.

We all know what is going to happen... kryptonite is going to stop making the cylindrical locks (which I eluded to in an earlier post) and either recall the locks that are out there or give us a discount (or free lock) to upgrade to the flat key type. And they probably won't go out of business and if they play their cards right they probably won't be hurt too much. I have an NYC chain, which except for the lock now, I intend to keep using.

I think U-locks should have been designed this way a long time ago:



And maybe you could make the key smaller, and then make the gap for the key even smaller.

You only need enough room to fit the key in, and turn it with two of your fingers.

That chunk of metal could be a little wide than the U bar width, making the keyhole even less visible.

Ok, so that chunk of metal could be bent away too. That just means more work for the thief. Maybe make the chunk of metal double that thickness too?

Maybe have the key hole recessed even more into the cylinder... or create a thick metal lip around it to decrease visibility/access even more.

Disadvantages would be... I dunno, maybe a new leverage point to pry off of? A cluttered inner U that could possibly catch on bike parts? A tiny bit more weight?

Maybe i'm misremembering, but isn't a tough cable generally better than a tough chain, because neither hacksaw nor boltcutters works well on cable?

Look at my reply to this other thread.
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=66048

I just spoke to the people that made our locks for my apartment building. Can someone check this out and tell me what they think of this padlock to put on my NY kryptonite chain?

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/mulsecpad35.html

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/slbo137bocl.html

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/eslbos11.html

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/muldispad.html

Those are four of the locks the dude recommended. I like the fourth one, but the guy couldn't tell me if the fourth one was specifically made to use for a chain or if it's made for doors.

Koffee

Salome, here are the locks I was talking about. Actually, this isn't the store my apartment used, but it's the same locks. Like I said, the dude was a bit clueless and acted like I was some kind of burglar asking for the security breakdown so I could break into someone's house or something. He wasn't too bright. But there are other companies that sell the padlocks. It would do you well to get out your phone book and ask the locksmiths if any of them carry the E series Mul-T-Lock padlocks. They are expensive, but hey... it's peace of mind, and they seem VERY secure. It was invented by some dude in Israel.

Koffee

A better design would be to make hte lock so you have to turn left then right without the pins resetting when coming across dead center. If the pins reset (meaning it was picked), you than have to start over. I've seen some house locks made this way...actually my dad installed htem into our house after he learned I was able to pick the locks (and thus how I got out and in at night when I was grounded and had to leave my key hanging from the kitchen phone).

Merely using a different key type is fine, but if you want the barrel lock convenience, then the way the barrel lock works has to be improved upon. Lock, evolve thyself!

someone just posted saying that the regular chain from the hardware store cant be cut using hydraulic cutters. so yeah sounds like a bunch of hype.



That may have been me. I'll clarify. The hardware store had ONE grade of chain that they warned not to cut with the hydraulic cutter in the bulk chain dept (for fear of damaging the unit). It was hardened "highway grade" with the strongest weight rating they had, in a pretty gold color, too. Not too bulky, either.

All the other grades of chain were cuttable by the available hydraulic cutter.

Cables vs chains...

I had a bike stolen in less than 5 minutes while locked with a medium-duty cable (this after being paranoid about it for the previous 2 years and never letting it leave my sight even when it was locked up). A LBS told me bike theives here in San Francisco commonly wear bolt cutters on a string around their neck, under a jacket. So, I brought the cut cable home and brought out the bolt cutter, sure enough, cut through the cable like butter.

So what did I buy when I replaced my bike? Why, an EV 2000 U-Lock, of course! I've seen the heavy woven strand type of cable which might be better, anyone else know of a super-tough cable? I do agreee with previous posters that multiple lock types (for example, U-lock + chain) is a better idea. My partner and I are headed off soon for an east coast cycling tour, and now I'm getting really paranoid, do I need another pannier for all the locks?!?

That may have been me. I'll clarify. The hardware store had ONE grade of chain that they warned not to cut with the hydraulic cutter in the bulk chain dept (for fear of damaging the unit). It was hardened "highway grade" with the strongest weight rating they had, in a pretty gold color, too. Not too bulky, either.

All the other grades of chain were cuttable by the available hydraulic cutter.


Any way you can find out what the grade of chain is, or who makes that chain so we can all look into it? I just called Ace Hardware, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

Koffee

I think Shecky said 5/8" case hardened chain. I just went to an Ace after my bike shop tour and they had 5/16" chain for 2.99 a foot I believe. Which would be plenty for a road bike. I plan on hitting up a locksmiths eventually and a Home Depot to see if I can find 5/8" case hardened chain - there's a difference, you should definitely ask for "security chain".

Any way you can find out what the grade of chain is, or who makes that chain so we can all look into it? I just called Ace Hardware, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

Koffee

Koffee, I think it's generally referred to as "case-hardened" or "through-hardened" - I'm having a hard time sourcing it in NYC. Does anybody out hee have a good source?

-chris

Riggers chain is what longshoremen use to load containers in ships. I use this with a bike tube pulled over it and a American #700 lock. The bike tube protects my bike and makes the chain ALOT easier to handle. A 2' length fits around my waist. The locksmith cuts the chain with a circular saw and fiber (metal cutting) blade. The chain is so robust they need to cut both sides of the link, in other words someone wanting to cut this chain needs to make two cuts. It takes the locksmith over 5 minutes to accomplish this. The weak link is (as usual) the lock. Check around at your locksmiths, I think most hardware stores won't have this chain.

Well, I called a shop in Chicago, and they have the Mul-T-lock padlock. They were very vigilent, and they said someone else came into their shop with the same story about the kryptonite lock. He was just really surprised that he's heard this story twice in one day, and equally surprised at how easy it was to break the kryptonite lock. Nevertheless, he told me to bring my bike in tomorrow. What he will do is take my Mul-t-lock key that I use for my apartment and outfit the padlock I choose so that the key I use to open my apartment will be the same key I use to open the padlock on my bike. So that will also save me another 9 bucks, since it costs extra to have more than one key made. He also may have a security measure I can take to protect the chain itself so it would be harder to cut the chain. So everything goes to the shop tomorrow!

I still will be purchasing 2 more totally different bike locks- I always go with 3 locks on my bike, and I figure with 3 totally different locks (ie chain, cuffs, and u-lock), if the thieves STILL get my bike, then at that point, they can have it!

I'll be looking for a way to get rid of the kryptonite locks I do have once I get my new locks. For anyone in Chicago that's interested, the store is called Security Shop, Inc. and it's at 2951 N. Clark. They are open from 8:30am- 5pm on weekdays and 9am- 12pm on Saturdays. Closed Sundays. And the guy there is very good- said the store was pet and bike friendly! :)

Koffee

I'm waiting to hear back from Kryptonite. Untill then the bikes will be locked with several styles of locks in my locked boarded up garage.

Gosh......I never used to lock my bikes when I lived in Japan. In the unlikely event in which Kerry gets elected, that'll give me a good excuse for me to move back to Japan....

George

Koffee - thanks for that. I've passed by there before and I will drop by tomorrow and see what the deal is - do they have chain too?

Trappin' Pat, thanks for that info, very useful. Is the riggers chain hard to come by? And is it known as anything else?

Thing is, I don't think I want more than a foot of chain at most. I'd like to keep the weight down and also have it much more snug for my road frame.

Also Security Shop have a site: http://www.securityshopinc.com

I don't know if there is another name for riggers chain. Mine is 6-sided and blue-ish in color. BTW its THREE feet long 2' wouldn't quite fit around my head ;)

I just spoke to the people that made our locks for my apartment building. Can someone check this out and tell me what they think of this padlock to put on my NY kryptonite chain?

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/mulsecpad35.html

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/slbo137bocl.html

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/eslbos11.html

http://store.yahoo.com/citywidesecurity/muldispad.html

Those are four of the locks the dude recommended. I like the fourth one, but the guy couldn't tell me if the fourth one was specifically made to use for a chain or if it's made for doors.

Koffee

The fourth one is not a good chain lock. I've seen it used on stores and vehicles (usually vans). On the back of that lock there is a hole and the cylinder is attached to a bolt that runs through the hole. You'd have two problems using it with a chain: the hole isn't big enough to get two side by side links of a chain through and an attacker with easy access to that hole has a lot more options for defeating this than one just attacking the "outside" of the lock.

Read the description "no shackle exposure" -- that's not true when using this as a chain lock.

I have no experience with the other three mentioned, but elsewhere people have suggested several American locks that I think would work fine. Any keyed padlock in the 60+ dollar range is probably a quality product. Decent combo locks run a lot higher.

(Registered just to post this.)

If your BIC ain't working, you might want to try any one of these tools instead...

http://www.lockpicks.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=220

Koffee - thanks for that. I've passed by there before and I will drop by tomorrow and see what the deal is - do they have chain too?

Trappin' Pat, thanks for that info, very useful. Is the riggers chain hard to come by? And is it known as anything else?

Thing is, I don't think I want more than a foot of chain at most. I'd like to keep the weight down and also have it much more snug for my road frame.

Also Security Shop have a site: http://www.securityshopinc.com

I don't know if they have a chain, but there's a Home Depot right down the street from there they opened in the last year on Clark. I'll head there first, then go to the Security Shop after that.

Koffee

I did it on the first try in 10 seconds on a Kryptonite Evolution 2000 (full size), with a Papermate Flexgrip Ultra Fine. :(

This is the most absurd thing I've seen in a very long time.

As you guys might remember, I recently had the nicest set of wheels I've ever had stolen from me. Today I was hanging out with a friend and we got to talking about that - he said his friend showed him just recently how to open a U-Lock with a ball point pen.

Of course I didn't believe it. That is until just thirty seconds ago when I opened my own Kryptonite Evolution 2000 with a bic ball point pen!

This has to be the most absurd thing I've ever seen. Try it. Take the end off the pen, jam it in the lock, wiggle around and twist.

Please tell everyone you know and make sure they do something about it right away. The theives probably already know this trick but from what I've heard it's fairly new. I figure the information is going to get out anyway and so it's better to let the honest people know first and hope this problem gets fixed.

You've got to be kidding me - most people consider these the standard for locking up. And it's a BALL POINT PEN that can break them open!? WTF. I will be on the phone with Krypto first thing tomorrow morning.
---- snip -----



I hope this topic goes away soon. It bogs down the server and the forums are useless.. Anything that could have been said about it has already been said, many times over...
And besides, this is not really NEWS.. this has been discussed on USENET years ago, and people still buy those locks..
this is a post from 1992..


From: Scott Seligman (seligman@CS.Stanford.EDU)
Subject: Re: Opening Krypto Locks: Here's how
View: Complete Thread (33 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc
Date: 1993-06-24 17:22:37 PST


In article <1993Jun24.085851.3793@ericsson.se> etxorst@eos.ericsson.se (Torsten Lif) writes:
>
> It's worse than that. MUCH worse. You can use the plastic cap from a
> cheap ballpoint pen. It will deform to adapt to the pegs in the
> lock...

I know how to pick cylindrical locks. I've done it. Although I've
never (yet) succeeded on an Ace II lock (the kind that Kryptonite uses --
fairly well made), I have carefully observed it being done. I know
what tools are required.

You cannot pick an Ace II lock using only the plastic cap from a cheap
ballpoint pen.


Scott Seligman

Internet: seligman@CS.Stanford.EDU
Packet: kn6ev @ n0ary.#nocal.ca.usa.na

I've got a Kryptonite chain that weighs about 5 pounds. Kryptonite lock with the U part that goes way inside the lock, with only just enough clearance to put a chain link through it. The lock is a circular one, though, but I'll try to always keep an eye on my bike when I lock it up outside.
(probably helps that I have an old, crappy bike with bad looking brakes and gears...)
The lock and chain are supposed to be guaranteed in NYC, but you never know.

[In your best Gollum voice] Those theives, theives! They stole it from us! And we wants it back!

In the unlikely event in which Kerry gets elected, that'll give me a good excuse for me to move back to Japan....

Yes, this utopia of ours will be lost forever.



Any way you can find out what the grade of chain is, or who makes that chain so we can all look into it? I just called Ace Hardware, and they had no idea what I was talking about.

I'll have to go back to make sure.

I have a feeling that they are going to try and downplay this a bit. Those who complain; like me, will be offered to have the lock re-cored to a smaller diameter.

The only problem is, that won't really help. It'll keep us cyclists from being able to defeat our own locks, but I don't see any reason why this attack won't work against any cylinder locks that have smooth pins. The guys who want to steal your bike will have different sized plastic barrels.

They'll either have to use pins with false notches, or go to a different cylinder type (probably not really possible without replacing the lock).

they have OnGuard mini's with flat keys. They know about it but they don't think the newer Minis at least are susceptible. I haven't been able to crack mine (but have for other older regular ones) so there may be a smidgen of truth there.


do the onguard minis fit in your back pocket? i'm too much in love with the pocket-portability of my evo 2000 mini to ever go back to a chain+padlock setup.

my evo 2000 mini is actually an older one with the NBA#### keycode - i could not get the bic-trick to work on it, but i don't feel like taking any chances because i only tried it for a minute or two here at the office.

so -- can anyone confirm whether the onguard minis fit in your back pocket? please!

do the onguard minis fit in your back pocket? i'm too much in love with the pocket-portability of my evo 2000 mini to ever go back to a chain+padlock setup.

my evo 2000 mini is actually an older one with the NBA#### keycode - i could not get the bic-trick to work on it, but i don't feel like taking any chances because i only tried it for a minute or two here at the office.

so -- can anyone confirm whether the onguard minis fit in your back pocket? please!

this one -- it looks small enough to me, but i haven't held one in my hands yet so i can't be sure.

http://www.onguardlock.com/getprod.asp?sku=45004687

anyone? will it fit in my pocket?

hmmmm - so i see that the krypto evo 2000 minis are 7.6 cm x 14 cm, and the onguard minis are 8.9 cm x 14 cm.

1.3 cm wider. that doesn't seem like it's too too much bigger. but after looking at a ruler, i think those dimensions actually refer to the size of the hole made by the interior of the lock, not the outside dimensions of the lock itself. but if the onguard's got a hole that's 1.3 cm wider, and is constructed from wider guage steel too, then the lock itself could turn out to be a whole lot wider, and end up NOT fitting in my pocket after all. jeez!

Sorebutt, I beg to diffier. A lot of people have spent a lot of money on these locks and depend on them. I know bike shops in NYC are taking it very, very seriously. Not all Krypto locks have this vulnerability, apparently it is confined to mostly ones with serial numbers that begin with KK, when Krypto shifted production to China (circa Oct. 2002). I tried some older ones (at least the EV disc, which is what most people in NYC use in conjunction with the chain) with the NBA and EGH serial numbers and it didn't work.

NYCpistarider - I, too, have been unable to unlock the NBA series, but I believe they're very, very similar to the YSE series (which I also can't open) which many people are reporting openable, though not as easily as the KK locks. So I'm not sure you're right about the older ones being invulnerable... though they are, at the very least, much more difficult to open, which IMO might be good enough to encourage theives to pass them by.

-chris

NYCpistarider - I, too, have been unable to unlock the NBA series, but I believe they're very, very similar to the YSE series (which I also can't open) which many people are reporting openable, though not as easily as the KK locks. So I'm not sure you're right about the older ones being invulnerable... though they are, at the very least, much more difficult to open, which IMO might be good enough to encourage theives to pass them by.
-chris


me three -- i could not get my NBA series mini open with the bic-trick. wonder if i'm safe...

I don't have anything to contribute pertaining the lock situation, but I mirrored the video in case the server needs help or anything.

http://jonbuder.us/files/krypto.mov

The lock I use is a Trek/kryptonite cable lock with a standard car key, it was $18.
http://www.trekbikes.com/accessories/product_detail.jsp?product_id=173&category_id=982

I stopped off at Cambridge Bicycle today on my way home from work and bought an OnGuard Mini. It's about the same dims as the Evo (a little bit longer) and fits in my pocket pretty nicely. I don't know anything about their reliability, but I figure they can't get much worse than a vulnerable Krypto. My man at the counter said they'd tried the locks on the bikes in the store and popped most of them.

For the record, my NBA series Kryptolok didn't go either. But I've been thinking about getting a mini anyhow (thank god I held off just a little bit longer), so I figure worst case (?) scenario my old lock isn't vulnerable and I can give it to my wife whose cable lock I stole to lock up my ride today.

You guys are killing my server! 1500+ people online?!


Yeah, I've been trying to get on all morning to read my threads and kept getting server timeouts. I decided to go browse Usenet instead, and found a link to this forum. Now I know what's making it all crawl.

To keep slightly on topic, I will try to see if my X-mart special U-lock with cylinder key will work with this stunt when I get home tonight.

Aloha,

Rob

ALERT! This is the statement that kryptonite is putting out about their locks:

We understand there are concerns regarding tubular cylinders used in some
Kryptonite locks. The tubular cylinder, a standard industry-wide design,
has been successfully used for more than 30 years in our products and other
security applications without significant issues.

The current Kryptonite locks based on a tubular cylinder design continue to
present an effective deterrent to theft. As part of our continuing
commitment to produce performance and improved security, Kryptonite has
been developing a disc-style cylinder for some years. In 2000, Kryptonite
introduced the disc-style cylinder in its premier line of products, the New
York series. In 2002, Kryptonite began development of a new disc cylinder
system for both its Evolution and KryptoLok product lines, which currently
use the tubular cylinder design. These products are scheduled to be
introduced in the next few weeks.

We are accelerating the delivery of the new disc cylinder locks and we will
communicate directly with our distributors, dealers and consumers within
the coming days. The world just got tougher and so did our locks.

Blah... that means nothing to me. :( What are they gonna do about the 5 kryptonite locks I have right now?

Koffee

Blah... that means nothing to me. :( What are they gonna do about the 5 kryptonite locks I have right now?

Koffee

Sorry. Just reporting the facts as I gather them.

someone just posted saying that the regular chain from the hardware store cant be cut using hydraulic cutters. so yeah sounds like a bunch of hype.


You have to be sure to get the hardened chain, most of the hardware store chains are probably not hardened steel.

Aloha,

Rob

HOLY CRAP! I've always held Kryptonite in such high esteem as a lock company too! This is terrible, it's times like these I'm glad I got a combo lock. :eek:

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=4356

discussion of this problem at a locksmithing forum

NYCpistarider, where did you get this "statement"? Just how long does kryptonite expect to have customers wait for them to contact us and tell us that our bike locks are as good as bubblegum. (actually people would probably be less likely to remove the icky gum.) This also doesn't answer the immediate (and quite important) question about insurance and the liablity of the lock company should Johnny freerider's new ride get stolen, lock and all... It would seem that the New York group insurance policy (that Krypto uses here) wouldn't cover a lock that is opened by a bic pen.

yes I would like to know how good this source is, an if we are going to get our now "hhighly vulnerable" locks fixed.

I have a kryptolok and kryptolok LS, one being less than 2 moths old, the other about 7 months old, that will need relpacement one way or another.

guys, read that site some. NO lock is fixable. You just have to buy a better lock...

The guaranty covers registered lock that you can prove was broken, not lock opened w plastic key. They sold you a good lock, people learned how to pick it, they sell you a lock w flat key. I have no beef w Krypto, a trade-in deal would help salvage their rep, but I don't think they did anything wrong. I want a refund on the pen I destroyed trying to replicate this parlor trick, what's up Bic?

ALERT! This is the statement that kryptonite is putting out about their locks:

We are accelerating the delivery of the new disc cylinder locks and we will
communicate directly with our distributors, dealers and consumers within
the coming days....

I see a $5.00 off coupon on the purchase of a new lock that will probably cost $70. No way will they offer replacments. No reason to.

As has been previously mentioned in this thread, this problem has existed for over 12 years now. Ask yourselves why it hasn't been fixed in that time. Here's a hint: pestering the company doesn't change anything. As I recall, someone in this thread called Kryptonite, and they said that they hadn't heard of this problem. This was several months after someone else in this thread had said that they already called Kryptonite about the problem. They will sweep this under a rug as much as possible. The people you need to talk to are people like the Consumer's Union (http://www.consumersunion.org/) or the Better Business Bureau (http://www.bbb.org/).

The biggest factor in this and all other customer dissatisfaction cases is apathy. Here, check this out:
(From )http://www.bigclassaction.com/consumer_alert/index.html (http://www.bigclassaction.com/consumer_alert/index.html)



A recent Consumer Products Safety Commission study found that most recalled items are never repaired or replaced, despite the recall notices. At least 27 Hondas from the 2003-4 model years burst into flames after their first oil change.

And that's after a recall has been announced, which you'll never even get in this case, since safety isn't a factor here.

Call your city newspaper and see if they're interested in running an article about it.

Call your local news channel and see if they're interested, too.

Hell, can CNN. If enough of you call, they might take the hint.

Call your local police station and see if they'll tell you how often people report bikes stolen when secured with barrel locks, with no apparent damage to the lock.

The reason the company doesn't consider this a "big problem" is because you're a small group and you couldn't possibly put a dent in their sales all by yourselves. Lock makers aren't really that concerned with repeat business. Unless this makes some mainstream medium where many people can read it, over 90% of potential consumers who are looking for a bike lock will never know about this, as they haven't for a dozen years already.

What good does it do to complain to locksmiths? They don't make locks. They don't own Kryptonite. They aren't a major source of Kryptonite's sales, either. The fact that it's now common knowledge among bike forum people, locksmiths, and petty criminals doesn't mean it's common knowledge among most bike owners on the internet, let alone most bike owners in major cities, let alone most bike owners in the USA, let alone most bike owners in first world countries. So unless you want this to go on for another 12 years, it might be time to take personal responsibility to blow the whistle on a product you find defective and sold under false pretenses.

Lockmakers do have an obligation to make locks that aren't capable of being easily opened with a ballpoint pen, especially when you pay $50 for it (as with the Kensington laptop locks this also works on), but even when you pay $30 for it. Yes, there's no such thing as an unpickable lock. There's not even really such a thing as a lock that's difficult to open, if you're talking about portable locks like this. But a lock that can be opened with a ballpoint pen can be opened trivially. This is like when you buy a coin bank for your child that looks like a safe, and is made of thin plastic. Sure, it bamboozles the kid, and he thinks he can hid things in there and they'll be perfectly safe from parental prying eyes. That doesn't mean it's secure. Would you put your valuables in there? You buy a Kryptolok expecting a reasonable amount of security as a result of using it. If it can be opened with a ballpoint pen, that doesn't qualify as a reasonable amount of security. If it required a special pick, that would still qualify as a reasonable amount of security.

Personally, I, as a criminal, have more lucrative things to steal than bikes. Heh.

It seems like there must be some liability on the part of a lock manufacturer towards those who have purchased them recently. The fact that the effected locks are now so easily comprimised places some large degree of liability on the company making them (Krypto or otherwise) in cases where they have long guarantees or theft coverage.

onguard u-locks use a flat key. so they are safe.

i don't know aobut abus.