General Cycling Discussion - Your brand new bicycle u-lock is not safe!

an AP reporter called me tonight and interviewed me for about 20 minutes regarding the problem. the piece should go out tomorrow.

The statement posted earlier is what Kryptonite is giving out to the media in response to requests for information about the pen situation.

I doubt this will get swept under the rug. The AP, the Boston Globe and the New York Times are all planning to write about it, and perhaps others too.

Hate to tell you guys, nothing will happen. It would require to much money to recall, and would be FAR to expensive to make all the machines drill the allignment perfectly to where locks couldn't be picked. Let the AP get involved... will just be free advertising for them. You have to use a lock one way or another, and nothing will get changed.

onguard u-locks use a flat key. so they are safe.

i don't know aobut abus.
no lock is safe, all locks are pickable and bypassable.

its just knowing how to do it.

Abloy and Medeco do have padlocks, dunno about Mul-T-Lock.

=v= They do indeed. This is a Mul-T-Lock:

http://www.things.org/~jym/bicycles/pix/rts-chain-lock.jpg

Notice the resemblance to the American brand that folks have been recommending. Both are billed as "undrillable, unpickable" and are used on the shutters of stores in New York City.
<_Jym_>

no lock is safe, all locks are pickable and bypassable.

its just knowing how to do it.

Picking a flat key lock takes skill that comes with practice. I managed to open a Kryptonite lock in under 5 minutes having never tried to do so before. The required tool is available anywhere office or school supplies are sold. Unfortunately, this is not a matter of the lock being pickable. It's a matter of it being a trivial exercise to pick the lock, thus rendering it useless. You may as use one of tiny lugage locks to secure your bike.

YSE series Ev 2000, opened it with Bic after a bit of jiggling.
Kryptonite had told my LBS that the recent spike in thefts of Krypto-locked bikes in Portland was due to a "home-made master-key" distribution scheme in Oregon, and that they were preparing a small-scale replacement offer last week.

If you're real paranoid (Koffee, hehe), this is the lock that the department of defense recommends as part of their high security program. The national stock number is 5340012175068 and it meets milspec DTL43607H. They list the value at $180.

actually, they use abloy... but whos watching.

Picking a flat key lock takes skill that comes with practice. I managed to open a Kryptonite lock in under 5 minutes having never tried to do so before. The required tool is available anywhere office or school supplies are sold. Unfortunately, this is not a matter of the lock being pickable. It's a matter of it being a trivial exercise to pick the lock, thus rendering it useless. You may as use one of tiny lugage locks to secure your bike.
true, it takes practice. but if the guy isn't after just a fast buck, the krpyt lock is enough. People who steal them for a living CAN pick locks, therefore, making any lock other than a grade 3, abloy, medeco, or equilivent, quite pointless.

IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER:
LOCKS ARE JUST THERE TO KEEP HONEST PEOPLE HONEST

I'm not that paranoid, but I am somewhat paranoid.

I don't know if some of you remember when I reported back about a year ago that some dude forced open my NY kryptonite chain lock because he didn't like that I'd parked my bike that close to his bike. What an asswipe he was, but at the time, people said there must have been something up with the kryptonite lock. That's when I started double locking. Then about 6 months later, some chick got her bike stolen right outside one of my fitness clubs- a high traffic area where the taxis stand and the members have to pass to gain entry into the club. I couldn't believe it at the time- I assumed she probably forgot to lock her bike, but now I can believe someone stole it. I really did think that at least the NY kryptonite lock was at least 90% secure. Of course, now I'm thinking it's more like 30% secure, which is why I'm heading to the locksmith to have my padlock built up. :-/

Koffee

I suspect that Kryptonite is going to need to offer a low cost replacement for at least newer locks. How else will they expect to keep customers? Don't you know that their competitors with flat key locks (Onguard) will move rapidly to take advantage of a large number of customers looking for new locks. If I were running Onguard, I'd have my advertising agency working overtime on ads showing how thieves can't pick my locks with cheap office supplies.

On the other hand, Kryptonite has an opportunity to show that they really stand behind their customers and their products. They can't deny the defect exists. The fact that some of their competitor's products have the same problem is no solace. Kryptonite has an excellent reputation among consumers (not just bike owners) and they can lose a lot of that reputation if they don't handle this correctly. If they do move quickly to do 'the right thing' they can reap long term rewards and leave the competitors in the dust.

You think onguard is really any more secure? think again, its a lock, its just as easy to bypass, its just having the knowledge to do it.

koffee, unless they are a professional thief, 2 locks would make most people keep looking for an easy buck someplace else.

all this with Interbike right around the corner.

also of note, Quality Bike Products has pulled their Kryptonite stock for the time being.

The info on the easy pickability of round key locks has been around for a while, although this angle on it is new and a complete and utter disaster for kryptonite and owners of their locks; I use an onguard ulock coupled with a kryptonite cable and padlock.

Showed a friend who had her garage locked with a new krypto padlock how this worked, and boyoboy, was she pissed-- though not at me, praise the lord.

I'll definitely be at Interbike with questions for Kryptonite. I have half a mind to bring the locks I've got and pimp slap them across their faces with it if they don't have an acceptable solution.

Koffee

would high quality combonation locks be harder to pick sence apparently no key lock is safe?

all this with Interbike right around the corner.

also of note, Quality Bike Products has pulled their Kryptonite stock for the time being.

speaking of interbike...i'm gonna be there on wednesday and thrusday with my shop. while there, i'm gonna check out the folks with Unbreakable. (http://unbreakable.com) they have a few locks available on their site here. (http://unbreakable.com/Unbreakable_Bike.htm) i'm most interested in the chain, but their link design looks somewhat gimmicky, and vulnerable, being that it's not a full link, but just the one bar with two eyelets on either end, but we'll see...

but they might be an option. i'll let y'all know in october.

just a thought, but...with all of this bad press about cylindrical locks going around, and with kryptonite about to release a bunch of brand new "disc" locks, they stand to make a TON of money off all this. now might not be a bad idea to purchase some kryptonite stock...

OK, GUYS, LISTEN. All locks are pickable, as long as there is a keyway. Combo locks are more secure, as long as they are newer than 6 years old.

The issue isn't that the lock is pickable, it's that it's so easily pickable.
Put it this way, what would you rather lock your house with?
A) A reliable lock that takes an hour to pick.
B) A lock that seems sturdy and reliable but next to the keyhole are three push buttons. Press two buttons in the correct order and the door opens, bypassing the use of the key.

If your answer is B, then by all means, continue using your current bic-pickable lock.

Two words: Abus and Squire.

OK, GUYS, LISTEN. All locks are pickable, as long as there is a keyway. Combo locks are more secure, as long as they are newer than 6 years old.


There are exceptions to this. Any standard Master combination lock is easily openable with a hammer. Hit it at a slight angle from the horizontal, towards the locking mechanism, on the opposite side as the latch, and it pops right open.

How good does the cable lock work? I am looking at a 10mm cable lock.
Good thing I saw this thread, I guess I won't be getting any kryptonite lock now.

While everyone is pounding Kryptonite, keep in mind the problem is with the key type, not the manufacturer. I've opened two non-krypto locks the same way with the lockbic.

I'm sure the Krypto flat keys on the market are as safe/unsafe as any other flat key locks.

No, I don't work for Kryptonite...

Phybre presents:
How to open any standard Master-like combination lock. The newer it is, the more stubborn it will be, but if you hit it at the right spot, with enough force, any of them will pop right open.



I would recommend wafer locks. That is, flat key locks, with bars inside instead of pins. If you can find a portable lock with a double-wafer design, even better. This is equivalent to a car lock. Picking these isn't actually much harder than a pin tumbler lock, but most thieves never learn how to do it right, because opening a car is much easier with a slim jim, or even just breaking the window.

Hate to tell you guys, nothing will happen. It would require to much money to recall, and would be FAR to expensive to make all the machines drill the allignment perfectly to where locks couldn't be picked. Let the AP get involved... will just be free advertising for them. You have to use a lock one way or another, and nothing will get changed.


I'm sorry, but if nothing got changed, that can hold Kryptonite responsible through neglicence for a biek theft that ends up not being accepted by their insurance. I see this as a bit of a show-stopper now that so much stink has been raised over it. The problem was 12 years ago nobody cared to raise that stink.

I'm sorry, but if nothing got changed, that can hold Kryptonite responsible through neglicence for a biek theft that ends up not being accepted by their insurance. I see this as a bit of a show-stopper now that so much stink has been raised over it. The problem was 12 years ago nobody cared to raise that stink.

Unfortunately, not true. Locks are sold as theft deterrent devices. Not theft prevention devices. There is no negligence involved. Safety is not an issue. But you, as a consumer, were led to believe that there was a certain amount of reliability inherent in the device, and that was the reason you bought it. This is not a civil law matter, and definately not a criminal law matter. It is a misleading business practice, and as I linked to previously, there are various consumer advocacy groups that will raise a stink about it. And bad media attention is also a very effective way to get companies to deal with things.

Geez guys, really dragging this one through the trenches. Sure any lock is pickable, I don't think that's hardly the point. Show several million (and counting fast) people how to open a lock in under 30 seconds (with something that is probably sitting in front of every person reading this), and it's a little different than the secrets of *normal* lock picking.

The bottom line is that as these video clips make their way throughout the Internet, we're all looking at our u-locks a little differently. If u-lock manufacturers (any cylinder-type key lock) don't fix this vulnerability they're going to lose a lot of money until they do.

After seeing cables cut and now this deal about u-locks, I'm going quad chain with a Multi-Lock.

As an owner of a bike shop - City Bikes in Washington DC - at first I didn't believe it. Then I tried it - wow - there it is - easier than a lock pick. We have had great experience with the Evolution locks, and have sold a lot of them. The bic thing has shaken my faith in any of the tubular cylinder locks, and we are pulling all of them from the shelves until we can figure out which tubular cylinder u-locks can't be defeated with a pen, if any. Our experience was that very few Evo's and New York locks were stolen. This forum is a testament to the fact that the traditional tubular cylinder mechanism is too vulnerable. We are going to try and get our customers replacement locks asap, whatever Kryptonite chooses to do. I have not been impressed with Kryptonite's response or from the postings of people who have talked to them directly - in my mind there is no excuse for losing your bike to a guy with a bic pen.

We undertook testing of U-locks earlier this year. We wanted to know how OnGuard compared to Kryptonite, which was interesting because of the Euro-style flat key and square shackle. The tests were pretty extensive with a hydraulic ram jig to destructively test locks against pry-type attacks (we presumed this was the biggest threat.) Little did we know the power of the pen here. A lot of people are asking about the OnGuard locks - and our testing showed they were pretty tough customers. We will put up a web page in the next few days about the tests and new locks coming out soon. Here are the basic test results:

Hydraulic
PSI to fail Brand Lock Mechanism Weight MSRP
1000 Kryptonite Kryptolok LS cylinder 2.60 35.99
1000 Master Lock Force 3 cylinder 1.90 31.99
1500 OnGuard Dynamite STD euro-flat 2.50 34.99
1600 OnGuard Ultimate (mini) euro-flat 2.10 44.99
2000 Master Lock Force 6 cylinder 3.00 71.99
2500 Kryptonite Evolution LS cylinder 2.00 51.99
3800 Kryptonite Evolution Mini cylinder 1.50 49.99
3800 Kryptonite New York euro-flat 4.20 79.99
5200+ OnGuard Brute (mini) euro-flat 4.80 49.99

The OnGuard Brute repeatedly broke the testing jig. It is beastly and brutish at almost 5 elbows, but the one to have if you need to be sure - and a better deal than the NY lock. I will put up videos of the testing. The flat keys can have thier own problems - like breaking off if you twist too hard - but certainly more pick-resistant.

If there is a silver lining to all this - it is that there will be more awareness as to what makes a lock a good one. I will say that claims that a lock is "unbreakable" or "pick-proof" are suspect - I have yet to meet a lock we can't break - it is a question of knowledge, tools or time. Locks that take a long time to break or a lot of noise to defeat are your best bet. I would not count Kryptonite out just yet - they may come back with a great product. All I can say is they had better find a way for everyone with a tubular key u-lock to upgrade or replace - and quickly. The next generation of lock mechanisms look promising - we will post what we know here and on our site as details emerge.

my evo 2000 mini is actually an older one with the NBA#### keycode - i could not get the bic-trick to work on it, but i don't feel like taking any chances because i only tried it for a minute or two here at the office.!

I just opened my Evo 200 mini with a NBA series key, same with with EV Disc Lock (also NBA key). NBA keys are just as vunerable.

Now I can't get the lock to close but who cares, its not if I'm every going to use these pieces of junk again.

Yes, circular key - the diameter of the pen has to match that of your key.

It's easier if it matches, if it doesn't get a hammer. Worked for me (hammer assisted).

Unfortunately, not true. Locks are sold as theft deterrent devices. Not theft prevention devices. There is no negligence involved. Safety is not an issue. But you, as a consumer, were led to believe that there was a certain amount of reliability inherent in the device, and that was the reason you bought it. This is not a civil law matter, and definately not a criminal law matter. It is a misleading business practice, and as I linked to previously, there are various consumer advocacy groups that will raise a stink about it. And bad media attention is also a very effective way to get companies to deal with things.
'

Au contraire, they sell it as a security device, so it has to perform to a certain level...if a mere pen can defeat it, than no security is present. Nothing is 100% secure and we all know that, however it all comes down to how well the lock slows down teh thief. that is what you are paying for, not deterrent. Problem being thes cyndrilical lock u-bolt now has a well known way to circumvent the protection level it offers. To just ignore this and to keep selling it as a good "deterrent" (only good deterrent is something that slows a thief down...thus why a lock was invented...to slow a thief down), then they would be liable since they know the lock doesnt work, since thieves know a 30 cent pen can defeat it.

It's like if ford sold a security system in their car, and later folks found out it only "works" when the remote is 30 feet from it.....ford would be having their head bit off. Same thing. If they acted like nothing was wrong, and kept selling the thing exactly as they were a week ago, then they are saying "this lock will reduce the chance of theft of your bike more than this cable lock....even though 90% of schoolkids have the tool to break int your u-lock, but not for the cable".

That's the problem, is right now a cable lock is marginally more secure, just due to how common a bic pen is. Sure all locks can be broken into, that's like saying the sky is blue....how about we look at it in how much trouble it is, and how a person carrying the tool can be convicted....you cannot get a known bike thief for having burglary tools if all tehy have is a bic without the little end plug, but could if he had wire cutters, bolt cutters, etc.

Two Words: Class Action.

Au contraire, they sell it as a security device, so it has to perform to a certain level

Not in any legally binding way, no. As I said, this is misleading business, but not illegal, and not unlawful. Any lawyer will tell you that there is no case here. No basis for a class action lawsuit, or any other kind. Unless you want to claim emotional damges from losing a bike to a pen salesman? If you want this fixed, expose it through news media. Kryptonite is not liable for your bike theft. They only offer "insurance" policies in New York City, and those are not standard policies. Opening the lock with a pen probably isn't a condition whereby their claim is broken, but you should read the text of the agreement yourself if you live in NYC and have registered such a policy with them. Oddly, their website seems to be down this very minute, but I was just there a few hours ago. Most of the information on their guarantees and extensive FAQs are buried within the website.

As long as I get a new more secure lock, that's all I care about.

Essentially, there is a basis for a class action--A class action is a legal procedure used to efficiently handle a lawsuit in which a large number of people have been injured by a common act or set of actions.

Obviously, the operative term here is "injured." Though lockbiccing is not rampant--not yet--it will be. The injury here would be the loss of bikes. To complicate the matter, say even a fraction of those victims had registered with the Kryptonite insurance policy... The rest of us have locks that cost what $15-$60? And now they are useless. I feel pretty "injured." My cousin said it best, "Locking your bike with a krypto-lock is like locking your bike with a piece of string."

Where did Kryptonite post that official statement? The kryptonite site is down right now... was it posted there?

Essentially, there is a basis for a class action--A class action is a legal procedure used to efficiently handle a lawsuit in which a large number of people have been injured by a common act or set of actions.

Obviously, the operative term here is "injured." Though lockbiccing is not rampant--not yet--it will be. The injury here would be the loss of bikes. To complicate the matter, say even a fraction of those victims had registered with the Kryptonite insurance policy... The rest of us have locks that cost what $15-$60? And now they are useless. I feel pretty "injured." My cousin said it best, "Locking your bike with a krypto-lock is like locking your bike with a piece of string."


1. Since no single person can reasonably claim Kryptonite is responsible for any injury in this situation, there is no lawsuit, and thus no class action lawsuit. Kryptonite didn't put your bike in a high crime area. Kryptonite didn't attach its lock to your bike. Kryptonite didn't advise you to attach its lock to your bike, and then put it in a high crime area. Moreover, unless your bike actually has been stolen, it doesn't matter if it could have been, and you are not an injured party in that case.

2. Kryptonite only offers insurance policies in New York City, because their main guarantee cannot be enforced there. The insurance policies must specifically be signed up for; you do not have one simply by virtue of buying their lock. The insurance policies are extremely limited in scope, and when their website comes back online you will probably find they do not offer unconditional repayment if your bike is stolen while being secured by their lock. Even if they did, this would constitute a breach of contract, and only if they failed to pay out the policy to you, which they have not yet done. This is totally separate from your previous injury claim.

3. There is a large group of people that use these locks and have not have their bikes stolen, so it can be argued that the lock is still a reasonably effective theft deterrent, at this point in time. So it is clearly superior to locking your bike with a piece of string.

4. How do you show in court that opening a bike lock with a ballpoint pen is qualitatively different from opening a bike lock with a lockpick? If one is actionable, the other must be. So by that rationale, all lockmakers everywhere, ever, can be sued because all their locks can be and have been picked. This is a reductio ad absurdum, and will impede any lawsuit from being perceived as reasonable on these grounds.

5. I am not a lawyer, and I doubt anyone else here is either. My bike has never been stolen, so I'm not a party to any potential legal action in any case. You should talk to a real lawyer before you continue with your false hopes of big money, big prizes.

I just tried this handy trick with my cobralink chain (has a cylindrical keyhole in the end). I was unsuccessful. has anyone used this technique to hack a cobralink lock?

[it's my garage chain, don't want anyone to think I'm so buff I carry around 10 lbs
of chain on the road.]

many thanks to unaesthetic for first posting this.

btw: here in SF someone has made the rounds of a bunch of bike racks slipping
pointer slips with a warning about this (link is to metafilter, discussion links back here). also, the SF Bicycle Coalition sent out a bulletin today.

I'm off to the hardware store tomorrow.




ps: Freewheel Cyclery rulz

1. Since no single person can reasonably claim Kryptonite is responsible for any injury in this situation, there is no lawsuit, and thus no class action lawsuit. Kryptonite didn't put your bike in a high crime area. Kryptonite didn't attach its lock to your bike. Kryptonite didn't advise you to attach its lock to your bike, and then put it in a high crime area. Moreover, unless your bike actually has been stolen, it doesn't matter if it could have been, and you are not an injured party in that case.

2. Kryptonite only offers insurance policies in New York City, because their main guarantee cannot be enforced there. The insurance policies must specifically be signed up for; you do not have one simply by virtue of buying their lock. The insurance policies are extremely limited in scope, and when their website comes back online you will probably find they do not offer unconditional repayment if your bike is stolen while being secured by their lock. Even if they did, this would constitute a breach of contract, and only if they failed to pay out the policy to you, which they have not yet done. This is totally separate from your previous injury claim.

3. There is a large group of people that use these locks and have not have their bikes stolen, so it can be argued that the lock is still a reasonably effective theft deterrent, at this point in time. So it is clearly superior to locking your bike with a piece of string.

4. How do you show in court that opening a bike lock with a ballpoint pen is qualitatively different from opening a bike lock with a lockpick? If one is actionable, the other must be. So by that rationale, all lockmakers everywhere, ever, can be sued because all their locks can be and have been picked. This is a reductio ad absurdum, and will impede any lawsuit from being perceived as reasonable on these grounds.

5. I am not a lawyer, and I doubt anyone else here is either. My bike has never been stolen, so I'm not a party to any potential legal action in any case. You should talk to a real lawyer before you continue with your false hopes of big money, big prizes.

Well your points are valid except that they sell the lock as being "un-pickable"...this is common knowlage...all any fairly competent lawyer would have to do is to cite a survey done that states that the perceptions is that these locks cannot be broken into via any normal circumstance. Kryptonite would not let this go to court, for any jury seeing the ball point pen trick, would side with the plantiff. Here is the kicker Though,


STANDARD OF PROOF - CIVIL CASES


The standard of proof on both parties is proof on the balance of probabilities, i.e., that an allegation is more probable than not.


...so it is just that it is more probable than not that kryptonite is responisble for damages that "might" occur or have occured...

likey the settlement would be 10-20 dollars for anyone who has bought the lock "thinking" someone would not be able to pick it with a bic pen. now that would bankrupt the company and nothing would come of it so I doubt that would happen...:)

Picking a flat key lock takes skill that comes with practice. I managed to open a Kryptonite lock in under 5 minutes having never tried to do so before. The required tool is available anywhere office or school supplies are sold. Unfortunately, this is not a matter of the lock being pickable. It's a matter of it being a trivial exercise to pick the lock, thus rendering it useless. You may as use one of tiny lugage locks to secure your bike.

I picked my first flat key lock in about three minutes with a paperclip and a chopstick. Some of the cylindrical locks out there are pickable in ten seconds with practice (judging by the videos), so I see your point, but flat keyway locks really don't take much in the way of skill or practice.

Well your points are valid except that they sell the lock as being "un-pickable"...this is common knowlage...all any fairly competent lawyer would have to do is to cite a survey done that states that the perceptions is that these locks cannot be broken into via any normal circumstance. Kryptonite would not let this go to court, for any jury seeing the ball point pen trick, would side with the plantiff. Here is the kicker Though,


STANDARD OF PROOF - CIVIL CASES


The standard of proof on both parties is proof on the balance of probabilities, i.e., that an allegation is more probable than not.


...so it is just that it is more probable than not that kryptonite is responisble for damages that "might" occur or have occured...

likey the settlement would be 10-20 dollars for anyone who has bought the lock "thinking" someone would not be able to pick it with a bic pen. now that would bankrupt the company and nothing would come of it so I doubt that would happen...:)

That's what I'm talking 'bout.

By the way, http://www.irco.com/businesses/

I don't think a lock recall will bankrupt them.

I have three types of locks I normally use for cycling. The first is a Kryptonite Gear Gripper that I slip into my jersey pockets and take with me. It's a very lightweight combination lock and can be defeated in seconds with a pair of wire-cutters. It's more a theft deterrent than anything else and I keep this in mind as I don't leave my bike unattended for any period of time and certainly not in anything but the least threatening environment.

The second lock I use a Kryptonite cable-lock that uses a flat key. It's a medium-duty lock. I keep it attached to my hitch rack most of the time and very rarely ever lug it around with me. It's meant to keep the bike(s) locked to the hitch.

So here's where I add another datapoint...

The third lock is a locking hitch-pin for my rack. This uses a cylindrical lock much like the Kryptonites that are currently at the center of attention. I just now tried to open it up with the body of a Bic pen. The pen wasn't wide enough to hit the tumbler pins so that didn't work. However, the cap fit perfectly and although it took some effort and jiggling, I was able to turn the cylinder and open the lock. I believe the cylinder is an Ace II type design because I noticed it does have different pin spring stiffness.

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2004/09/16/cyclists_bike_locks_easy_prey_for_thieves/

It has officially hit the press.

well, at the least we have some new models supposedly being released early.

Hopefully we get some kind of minor discount for exchanging our old krypto lock, but i'm not holding my breath....I might also still get the on-guard, since I can get one with a nice thick cable which will be good for additional securing in my storage locker...will beat the chain i was using...was since it's now outside on my trek. Oh well, at least I don't have to worry about my commuter being missing.

The flat keys can have thier own problems - like breaking off if you twist too hard - but certainly more pick-resistant.

Whadda? I 've used flat-key bike locks for more than 10 years now. Almost once every winter I have to resort to wiggling/twisting the key hard to unlock a frozen lock. I have never had any issues with a key breaking off.

--J

Bic problem has been known since at least 1992. New Cyclist magazine carried a big article on it. Trade news site BikeBiz.com carries details here:

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4637

Kryptonite's response is there too.

You think onguard is really any more secure? think again, its a lock, its just as easy to bypass, its just having the knowledge to do it.

Yes, I think that OnGuard is more secure and it's up to you to prove your wild-assed assertion that it's no more secure than something which can be opened in ten seconds with a Bic pen.

Defeating any lock requires a combination of knowledge, skill, tools, and time. The tubular key Kryptonites require far too little of all of those things. If defeating an OnGuard takes a skilled, trained locksmith ten minutes using specialized lockpicking tools, then it's more secure (by a lot) than a tubular key Kryptonite.