Classic & Vintage - 531 vs Tange 2

531 or Tange 2? I'm probably opening a can of worms but, how do they stack up?

Which 531?

If you're talking about tubing, I like Tange 2, almost as light as Tange 1.
Then again, I know pretty much zilch about 531. Some of my friends like it.

I've not seen Tange 2 frames in aggressive geometry, so I can't really evaluate them, but the frame in 58cm is only 2 ounces heavier than the Tange 1. Often, the fork is different.

The decal only says 531. It's a 86-87 Trek 400. I know it is not the 531CS tubing (that's my 84 610). I'm thinking about diversifying my stable with the Centurian for trade on the ISO/Trade thread. I was just wondering how they stack up.

Having both, I'll say that the '88/89 Nishiki with Tange 2, 700X23 clinchers, and Shimano 105 everything is as light as my tubular/Campy Record/NR equipped Raleigh pro. Well, maybe 1/2 lb heavier. Spending time on both, I somehow like the Raleigh better, though for no quantifiable reason. The 'Shiki though is a sweet, sweet ride, even though it is considered to be middle-range when it came out.

I have an '82 Trek 614 in '531, and an '83 Nishiki Int'l in Tange 2:
Same frame size, same brakes, same DRs, same handlebars, and same Avocet saddles.

I can't tell the difference.

Read the specs carefully on that Trek. Only the MAIN TUBES are 531 on the 400 series bikes. Your 614 was not all 531 either. Stays and fork are Ishiwata. The 710 series was 100% Reynolds 531. All steel Trek road bikes are pretty desirable.

I don't have any Tange 2 or 531s in the keeper fleet right now.

I think it really shouldn't make a difference, given two sets with the same wall thickness.

I like the 531 decal better than the Tange 2. :P

As much as I hate to admit it (snobbery alert!), if I close my eyes on a full Tange 2 machine or a full 531C machine, there is little difference. Granted, most Tange 2 frames have that sterile Japanese feel to the frame, and most 531C frames don't - but I'd put that down to build and geometry before I would blame it on the tubing.

<snob> That said, I prefer 531 decals. </snob>

-Kurt

I love my tange #1 frame, so i guess it boils down to snobbery and geometry.

I guess it's a matter what side of the bed I get out from. ;)

One of my frames is Tange 2. Sport touring geometry and 27"x1" wheelset. It rides predictable and stable. I don't have a 531 to directly compare but did build my brother's racing Triumph (Raleigh rebadge) for him. All 531 brazed in England. I thought his bike road very lively.
I couldn't keep up with him, but I don't think it was my bike's shortcoming.

IIRC, Tange 2 was more better compared to Columbus SP.

is it Tange as in "TANG" ? or Tange as in "Orange" ? 531 I dont have a problem with LOL ! --- all joking aside ,IMO they both have there own charicturistics (did I spell that right ? Prob not) and if it "ride,s" good it IS good !

From Sheldon Brown " The thing to remember is that the high-end Tange tubesets were high-quality CrMo steel which were on a par with high-end Columbus SL/SP (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#columbus) (CrMo) and Reynolds 531 (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_aa-l.html#531) (manganese-molybdenum) tubesets." Tange 1 & 2 are great frame materials. Where does Tange Prestige stack up?

is it Tange as in "TANG" ? or Tange as in "Orange" ? 531 I dont have a problem with LOL ! --- all joking aside ,IMO they both have there own charicturistics (did I spell that right ? Prob not) and if it "ride,s" good it IS good !

Actually, it's tahN-ghey. Of course that sounds pretentious, like "Deer-tay" but it is the proper pronunciation of the Japanese.

It's fun to be pretentious sometimes. There are some really great frames made of Tange No. 2.

It's fun to be pretentious sometimes. There are some really great frames made of Tange No. 2.

I don't know if it's fun to be pretentious, but it's fun riding pretentious and snobby bikes!

Actually, it's tahN-ghey. Of course that sounds pretentious, like "Deer-tay" but it is the proper pronunciation of the Japanese.

I stand corrected ,TY .

I could go for some Tang.... What I've gathered from this thread is, ride the bike, if you like it, get it. AND there isn't TOO much difference between the tubing. Right?

What I've gathered from this thread is...

...that we all have too much time on our hands. Shut up and go ride. ;)

-Kurt

...that we all have too much time on our hands. Shut up and go ride. ;)

-Kurt

Yeah.... that too

Tange Prestige is heat treated for more strength after lightening further.
Like 753.

Tange Prestige is heat treated for more strength after lightening further.
Like 753.

Just compared my 93 Giant in Tange Prestige and a full 531 Holdsworth. The 531 feels about the same weight when lifting the bike but feels 'lighter' and more lively when ridden. It's a totally subjective thing though, they are both great bikes. Tange 1 and Tange 2 are definitely heavier.

As much as I hate to admit it (snobbery alert!), if I close my eyes on a full Tange 2 machine or a full 531C machine, there is little difference. Granted, most Tange 2 frames have that sterile Japanese feel to the frame, and most 531C frames don't - but I'd put that down to build and geometry before I would blame it on the tubing.
-Kurt

i'd agree with everything kurt said. since tange 2 tubing is slightly thicker than tange 1, it was usually used for bikes designed for heavier loads, such as touring bikes. that's why you won't find any really aggressive geometry bikes using tange 2. my shogun 2000 touring bike has tange 2 seamless tubing, and it is only slightly heavier than my raleigh comp GS... and that might even be due to heavier components. i never compared the weight of the bare frames.

i also have a trek 560 with trutemper RC1 DB chromoly frame, and it feels just as lively and snappy as the raleigh comp GS... and it weighs exactly the same. but it may have nothing to do with the tubing itself but with the frame construction, lugs, etc... the trek has investment cast lugs while the raleigh has traditional hand-cut lugs.

531 or Tange 2? I'm probably opening a can of worms but, how do they stack up?



They stack up about the same. My Centurion has 'Tange 2' and it rides and feels just as lively as my 'Columbus SL' Tommasini. They also weigh about the same. My son has an old Trek 560 with Reynolds 531 and it rides just as well also. All three of the tubes I just mentioned are some of the best of steel, so you cant go wrong.

I have an '82 Trek 614 in '531, and an '83 Nishiki Int'l in Tange 2:
Same frame size, same brakes, same DRs, same handlebars, and same Avocet saddles.

I can't tell the difference.About as straightforward and honest assessments as you can get...


Having both, I'll say that the '88/89 Nishiki with Tange 2, 700X23 clinchers, and Shimano 105 everything is as light as my tubular/Campy Record/NR equipped Raleigh pro. Well, maybe 1/2 lb heavier. Spending time on both, I somehow like the Raleigh better, though for no quantifiable reason. The 'Shiki though is a sweet, sweet ride, even though it is considered to be middle-range when it came out


Tange Prestige is heat treated for more strength after lightening further.
Like 753.
+1
Someone asked me how my Prestige-tubed Prestige felt compared to the Tange 1 Turbo or an Ironman.
It felt "petite." I have no idea what that meant, subconsciously or otherwise.

The 531 does have a cool decal, though the Tange Champion No. 2 decal isn't too bad...

And I guess I may as well say it, though with different wheels and groups, it's not a fair comparison:

My 1989 Ironman w/Tange 1, 2x10 105 and Alex ACE 19 wheelset is smoother than my 1985 Cinelli Centurion with Columbus SL, 2x8 Chorus, and Vento wheelset. Not as quick, about the same weight due to the heavier Ventos, but a little smoother. Tires may make a difference.

The cool factor, though, is another thing altogether. One is a smooth, classic steel bike. The other is in your face Italian RicoSuave.

The 531 one is quite nice and iconic, but imo the graphical delight in tubing decals is defo the #1 example.

...but you can not ride decals, I know. However it is possibly the only noticable difference.

i'd agree with everything kurt said. since tange 2 tubing is slightly thicker than tange 1, it was usually used for bikes designed for heavier loads, such as touring bikes. that's why you won't find any really aggressive geometry bikes using tange 2. my shogun 2000 touring bike has tange 2 seamless tubing, and it is only slightly heavier than my raleigh comp GS... and that might even be due to heavier components. i never compared the weight of the bare frames.

i also have a trek 560 with trutemper RC1 DB chromoly frame, and it feels just as lively and snappy as the raleigh comp GS... and it weighs exactly the same. but it may have nothing to do with the tubing itself but with the frame construction, lugs, etc... the trek has investment cast lugs while the raleigh has traditional hand-cut lugs.

I don't believe your statement about not seeing aggressive frames with Tange two is accurate. I had a very high end Panasonic, I believe one of the customized ones, that was extremely agressive and Tange 2. Centurion made quite a few aggressive road bikes out of Tange two as I recall and I know that Lotus did (when they weren't using Columbus SL).

The lush pearl orange Koga ProRacer that was posted in the Miyata Cult thread yesterday has full #2. Early 80s FullPros => full #2. Not the FullPro-L ones, as that was full #1.

I'm reviving this thread after doing some research into different Tange tubesets. Looking through the 1983 Tange catalog, it turns out that Tange 2 DB is indeed heavier than Tange 1 DB: 0.9-0.6-0.9 tube thickness for standard diameter tubing as opposed to 0.8-0.5-0.8 for Tange 1. Tange "pro", the lightest tubing listed in their catalog, is 0.6-0.3-0.5.

Tange 3 is 1.0-0.7-1.0, and incidentally, the same thickness as Columbus SP.

As the Tange model number goes up, in general so does the thickness, with Tange 5 being 0.9mm plain-gauge. However, the biggest single leap in weight for a tubeset is seen going from Tange Pro to Tange 1, as looking at the wall thicknesses would suggest. There really isn't much of a leap in terms of weight going from 1 to 2 to 3, etc... we're talking 1/4 lb or so.

Also, since that numbering scheme seems to have been discontinued since the 1980s, further digging around revealed that the newer Tange "900" and "infinity" also have 0.9-0.6-0.9 tube thicknesses, so mostly comparable to Tange 2. However, I have no idea about whether these are heat treated, air hardened, or how they otherwise are distinguished from Tange 2 in terms of manufacturing process. But in terms of weight alone, Tange 2, 900, and infinity tubesets should be identical.

I wonder what the standard thicknesses are for Reynolds 531 and 501? Anyone know?

Stick with 531 for better resale value. :p

I wonder what the standard thicknesses are for Reynolds 531 and 501? Anyone know?

Table over at equusbicycle.com (http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynolds/constructorstubeguide.htm)

Actually, it's tahN-ghey. Of course that sounds pretentious, like "Deer-tay" but it is the proper pronunciation of the Japanese.

+1 That is the correct way of saying it.

I wonder what tubing that can of worms is made of...

Unless we know the exact geometry, we simply can't compare them.

There are probably psych differences, as well.

I'm taking Kurt's advice.

For 531 Competition (the usual "fully double-butted tubes forks and stays"), the TT and ST are .8/.5
'cep the ST is single -butted, the DT is .9/.6. The UTS is 802 N/mm^2.

For 501 (listed by Tony Oliver as an all-terrain frameset) the TT and ST are 1.0/0.7, and the DT is 1.0 straight. UTS is
the same as 531.

Plus, the 501 is larger diameter. It should be stiffer than 531, based on thickness and on outer diameter. Framebuilder
Tony Oliver (in whose book I found this data), recommends 531C for road racing and audax frames. Tubings similar to 501 (Columbus SP)
are recommended for heavy touring and expedition frames.

If both frames are full chrome-moly, then I would use other considerations to decide, such as color, geometry, etc.

I've never owned any frames built of Tange tubing. I've owned five Reynolds 531 frames and one Columbus SL frame. The Columbus frame trumps them all for responsiveness/ride quality, but I suspect that has something to do with the builder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJHwPqn2jY0

I've never owned any frames built of Tange tubing. I've owned five Reynolds 531 frames and one Columbus SL frame. The Columbus frame trumps them all for responsiveness/ride quality, but I suspect that has something to do with the builder.


This. Outside of the absolute weight aspect, I firmly believe that geometry holds a much bigger determining factor in how a bike will ride than tubing when comparing differing butted tube sets of the same outer dimensions. I have two full 531c frames, both Gazelles, both Champion Mondials, both the same size frame, produced within about 4 years of one another, but one is the AB-Frame model, the other the A-Frame - they ride differently due to minor differences in geometry. The A-Frame isn't quite as lively as the AB-Frame, most likely due to a slightly longer rear triangle. My Serotta, built of Columbus SL, rides somewhere between the two. One of the most lively frames I can recall riding was a Centurion Ironman, but that may have been due to it being 2 sizes too small for me and the small frame was easier for me to push around under me.

Wow, so many factors involved. I remember seeing a Centurion spec about Tange 1 and Tange 2 and a person's weight. I've raced on SL, SLX, 531, 853, Tange 1, Tange 2 tubing. I can't honestly tell the difference. But from steel to aluminum to carbon, I can. But I'm only about 140 pounds. I've also full on pannier touring with some low end Fuji bike (the tour company gave me a bike to lead). Probably some low end tubing. All of them were great.
Then of course, there's straight tubing, double butted, triple butted...yikes! Yep, put them worms back in the can... :)

I have Tange 2 (Centurion ProTour) and 531 ('85 Trek 600). Also straight gauge 531 main tubes in a '73 Raleigh Super Course. All have different frame geometries, wheels, tires, saddles, etc. so there is no direct comparison for me. I love them all.

That said, the 531 fork sure seems light and lively for my 200 lbs. Within a few weeks I hope be riding another vintage full 531 bike - so there will be another point of (non)comparison.

The decal only says 531. It's a 86-87 Trek 400. I know it is not the 531CS tubing (that's my 84 610). I'm thinking about diversifying my stable with the Centurian for trade on the ISO/Trade thread. I was just wondering how they stack up.

I have a '87 Trek 400 with Reynolds 531 for the main triangle and a modern bike with Tange Prestige. Both are good and can be very good, depending on what the frame builder does with them.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/wildcat-bucket/2010bikepictures016.jpg

Tange 1 & 2 are great frame materials. Where does Tange Prestige stack up?

In terms of overall tensile strength, here is the order from strongest to weakest of common bike tubing steels:
1. Heat-treated air hardened steel (853, Foco, OXPlatinum)
2. Heat-treated CrMo (Tange Prestige HT, Reynolds 725)
3. Cold-drawn air hardened steel (Reynolds 631)
4. Cold-drawn CrMo (Reynolds 525, Tange Infinity)
5. High tensile steel (cheap dept. store bikes)

I've never owned any frames built of Tange tubing....\

I've never owned any t-shirts (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7631/531jx5.jpg) printed with a tange decal. Do they even make them?

I think it really shouldn't make a difference, given two sets with the same wall thickness.

But as a rule, they AREN'T the same wall thickness. The typical 531 main triangle was .8/.5/.8 top and seat tubes, and .9/.6/.9 down tube. Champion #2 was .9/.6/.9 all around (same as Columbus SL), #1 was .8/.5/.8 all around. FWIW, my favorite bikes over the years have all been 531 (including my current fave '84 Trek 610 which is 531cs). Just something about that tubeset that works for me.

SP
Bend, OR

This is likely a coincidence, but when I listed all of the bikes I've ever ridden in order of preference, all of my least favorite rides are Reynolds tubing and none of my favorites are Reynolds. This likely has more to do with the bikes than the tubesets.

I love my Tange #1 Frame.

But as a rule, they AREN'T the same wall thickness. The typical 531 main triangle was .8/.5/.8 top and seat tubes, and .9/.6/.9 down tube. Champion #2 was .9/.6/.9 all around (same as Columbus SL), #1 was .8/.5/.8 all around. FWIW, my favorite bikes over the years have all been 531 (including my current fave '84 Trek 610 which is 531cs). Just something about that tubeset that works for me.

SP
Bend, OR

My frame was custom made for me in 1980 and is full Tange No.2. The difference between Columbus SL and No.2 was that the Tange set has heavier seat and chain stays. I've forgotten about the fork's wall thickness, but I think it was also thicker.

The comparison of ride quality I can remember is between my 980mm wheelbase frame and a Dawes Atlantis full 531. The Dawes felt like it had suspension, however the wheelbase was much longer, especially in the rear triangle and handled differently.

My frame was custom made for me in 1980 and is full Tange No.2. The difference between Columbus SL and No.2 was that the Tange set has heavier seat and chain stays. I've forgotten about the fork's wall thickness, but I think it was also thicker.


I think that Tange offered a couple of different chromoly fork gauges, with the thinner one being matched for the Tange Pro, and the thicker one being matched for all the others. Not sure about the thinner fork blades, but the thicker ones are 1.0 straight. Stays are 0.8 straight, I think.

I love my tange #1 frame, so i guess it boils down to snobbery and geometry.

I have both a Tange 1 and a Tange 2 frames but no 531 so I can only compare between these two but they couldn't be more different in my opinion. One frame is a Katakura Silk 63cm (Tange 1)
http://rvabikecommuter.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/camerabag_photo_1001.jpg

and the second is a Nashbar Toure XC in Tange 2, about 61-62cm.

http://rvabikecommuter.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/photo7.jpg

I can't say regarding the original question here if 531 or Tange 2 is superior, but to me there is a huge difference in Tange 1 and Tange 2. I love the Nashbar frame but it is not a "sport" frame relative to the buttery niceness of the Tange 1 frame( well obviously, it is a touring bike). The walls of the tubing are certainly thinner on the Tange 1 and it takes a 27.0 seatpost where the Nashbar Tange 2 takes a 26.8, this may seem insignificant but produces a huge difference in ride charachteristics (both are great when used appropriately I feel, just different) that are noticeable throughout. My good riding buddy has a Nishiki "Prestige" in Tange 2 as well so both us have a fair amount of experience with this tubing.

I'll tell you, I have the Nashbar set up for commuting with 36 spoke wheels. It handles some light singletrack (very light), gravel, curb hopping, pave/cobblestone sections, and grassy cross style fields with ease. Also, this bike has cantilever brakes, which from my understanding, place more stresses on the seatstays, hence the thicker tubing. Other than the obvious differences in geometry overall the Tange 2 frame is something I ride if I want no worries, which is most days of the week. It got me through a 200k Brevet about two weeks ago none worse for the wear either so it must be "compliant" as they say although I feel "confident" on the frame at all times. I think the 36 spoke wheelset adds to this but this material is great for an all-rounder bike in my opinion and if I could only have one bike, this may be it.

Tange 1 Katakura Silk....only bike I've ever had with this tubing and I am not even 100% sure thats what it is. My deductive skills lead me to believe this because of a picture of another Silk roadbike on Flckr I saw with the Tange1 sticker on it and the 27.0 seat post diameter. I suppose it could be some type of Ishawata or something else but considering the rarity of this brand and seeing a dead ringer for the frame with a Tange 1 sticker on it I am pretty sure that's what this is.

I am discussing this here because of the quote above, but mainly because I haven't ridden a bicycle like this bike ever before (I'm 30, and no I don't have access to thousands of dollars of Italian steel so take my opinion for what it is worth) and the frame is remarkable to me. At first I thought I had gotten ripped off (ebay purchase) on the frame and fork. It's a 63cm and the seat stays will sway back and forth and the BB can be tweaked when you are clipped in at a stop light. It feels TOO thin. I have come to realize this is more of a hallmark of a fine machine having done more and more research on Katakura bicycles and looking at all of the details on the frame (star bottle boss supports, diamond cutout supports on the brake bridge, etc). I believe the maker of this frame was probably a highly skilled professional that made some very high quality bicycles in his/her time. If I could I would love to know more about Katakura Silk....back to the review.

The Nashbar Toure XC Tange 2 has been an awesome bike for me, but it's not a lite weight speedster like the Tange 1. Some of that is geometry but the ride charachteristics are remarkably different from the materials more than the geometry in my opinion. If you are a rider who likes to feel confident and is a big guy like me (over 200lbs, 6'3", etc) and could more easily lose 10lbs from your midsection than from your bicycle, I would say either the 531 (although I have no personal experience with this material) or Tange 2 will suit you very well and will take you anywhere you need to go (with a decent wheel set). If you like to suit up in lycra, like STI shifting, and are into matching your kit with your bicycle, and have an aversion to bicycle weight, get the best weather it be Tange 1, Columbus, or Reynolds product. I was amazed at the difference in the highest quality tubeset in a road bike and I have recently begun rebuilding this bike frame up for Spring....but for winter/ all arounder use, cobblestones, and the like....it's worthless, but was never meant for that. I'll keep them both but they are totally different animals for different purposes altogether even though they both have drop bars and are "road" bicycles. I hope this helps but I didn't want anyone coming away feeling like Tange 1 and Tange 2 are remotely similar when built up into a 60+cm size frame. :thumb:

If both frames are full chrome-moly, then I would use other considerations to decide, such as color, geometry, etc.

531 is Mang-moly, not chrome-moly, FYI.