Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Bad neck + shoulder pain. Advice? Help!

I'm starting to get pretty discouraged, and hope somebody has some advice or info ... or morphine.

I can't be on my bike for more than 2 to 3 hours. After a while, I start to get this burning pain where my neck meets my shoulders. Depending on how the bike is set up, I've been able to move the pain around, and make it show up a little earlier or later. I've gone 3,500 miles in the last year, and 175 in the past week, so it's not fitness in general. I'm able to climb hills I used to think were impossible - several of them in a day.

I bought a new bike a week ago, for several reasons, one of them being that carbon as a vibration dampener should be easier on my neck. I went 50 miles the first day I had it, and spent the next two days off the bike. We tried shortening the stem; I did 40 miles the next day, and was almost crying before I got home. My neck was glowing red, like lava pouring down the side of a volcano.

I've had both bikes professionally fit. The new one is a race bike, and has the bars a little lower than the seat, which I think is causing me a lot of grief. The seat is in the right spot ( no knee issues, no saddle sores ). Can anything be done to raise the bars a few inches to get them level or slightly above the seat? Will this destroy the nice handling? On the other hand, most people are able to hold these positions ... should I be seeing a doctor and getting x-rays of my neck instead? If it's a problem with me, is there anything I can do, or do I have to just give cycling up?

I don't have a working camera, so can't post photos. Maybe somebody can point me in the right direction, or has good info that might help me figure out what I need to do? I was hoping I'd finish my first century this year, but that's 100 % impossible because of this, and I'm pretty bummed. Plus, my shoulders hurt so badly from the weekend, that I'm not even sure what I'll be doing for exercise this evening.

:(

When did the pain start, how long ago? What changed during that time. It might help to see chiropractor.

I hear morphine can be had in the Pioneer park area.

Not everyone can handle a drop from the saddle to the bars. I doubt your handling will be totally thrown by installing a stem with some rise.

For me on my mountain bike, this same problem was caused by firstly my saddle being slightly too high, and 2nd from the saddle being nosed slightly down. It could be as simple as a minor saddle height or angle adjustment.

When did the pain start, how long ago? What changed during that time. It might help to see chiropractor.

Well ... I'm 32 now; the first bike I bought as an adult was more than 10 years ago, and I remember having a riser put under (?) the stem to lift the bars. That was a MTB hybrid. But, that said, my last bike was a CX, and not that different from my new one. At first, I couldn't go more than an hour without a lot of pain, and ultimately got that up to three or so. I got a new bike last weekend, and now things are really bad.

In the past, the pain has usually or always gone away once I got off the bike ... I think this is why I'm so disappointed right now.


I hear morphine can be had in the Pioneer park area.

Well ... hopefully it won't come to that! But I am thinking about seeing a doctor over this, who'll probably give me pain meds and tell me to stay off the bike.

I'm one of them guys that really doesn't pay much attention to those members that shout "flip it" whenever another member gets a new bike. My belief is that I will go longer faster and better if I'm comfy. Heck,what good does it do if I can go 40 miles in a blaze of glory if I can't make it to 60?:D

I did ask that the forktube on my last new bike be left uncut to allow for more height and spacers. I'm sure others will claim all sorts of handling issues but my thought is get used to the feeling of the bike and you'll be fine. That's just my opinion but again, I don't race but if I did, I'd use the same setup. Maybe TT would be different but much shorter.

Also the SWEET race bikes are usually set with the hoods forward in the race tuck position. Myself, I roll my bars back a bit and slide the shifters a bit up and back for comfort. I'm not sure how it would look to the forum members ona SWEET racing bike but heck, I'd rather look FRED and be comfy than having pain.:D

Another thing is, make sure to avoid using a death grip and tense shoulders on the climbs. Concentrate on relaxing the upper body while climbing, save the energy for the legs not the arms and shoulders. Death grip is a waste of energy.:D...You may be overcompensating on grip due to the "getting used to the handling" period of the new bike.

I have a rise in the stem long forktube with spacers and the shifter slid back on the bars some for ez reach and comfort. Race setups have the shifters slammed forward, almost horizontal for the race look and benefits. I guess it would be fine if I had a 30 inch waist.:p


Now I must say, this position is nice for breathing on the climbs along with wide handlebars.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/gulpxtreme/081810Q.jpg

My bike setup is similar to Mr. Beanz - the steerer is the maximum unsupported length recommended by the fork manufacturer, and I have the stem flipped up also. I wanted handle bars with a flat transition from the tops out around the curve to the brifters - this lifts up your riding position another bit while riding on the hoods.

Another thing to keep in mind - my stem is not the steepest angle out there - they make some that are really steep for problem cases. They also make adjustable ones that in my experience are mostly used to help find the right stem angle, but I have seen a few cyclists that use them as every day stems. With my current setup, I still end up with a couple of inch drop from the saddle to the bars. If I needed less, I'd need a different stem or a different frame with a taller headtube (which supports the steerer tube up to a higher point, meaning you can leave it longer).

My bike:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee39/jonathanb715/lynskydc.jpg

link to adustable stem (there are others on the market too):

http://www.amazon.com/Ritchey-Comp-Adjustable-Bicycle-Stem/dp/B00165J4Y6

JB

It's alot easier on the shoulders if you face the bike rightface for the pics!:D



My bike setup is similar to Mr. Beanz -


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee39/jonathanb715/lynskydc.jpgJB

When did the pain start, how long ago? What changed during that time. It might help to see chiropractor.

I hear morphine can be had in the Pioneer park area.

I realize the comment on Morphine was to stress how much pain you're feeling. But, due to my paranoia - I do want to point out that usually, strong pain meds are for short term 'recovery' from surgery or injury. In Pain MGNT most people put on Morphine never ever get back off of it. Generally, it is a *life* decision... i.e... quality of life vs pain.

While I am not a doctor, or anything like that - seeing a Chiro, or a "DO" might very well do you some good. These types of DRs can evalute you to see how flexible you really are, and if you have any issues that would create pain being in a somewhat aggressive riding position.

Lastly, when discussing Morphine, learn the differance between 'addiction' and 'dependance', and what the reality is of getting off of it once on it.

In some 30 odd years of being on and off of various pain-killers, Morphine is the one that took me many months to get off of, all others were 'cold turkey' with a few days of issues only.

I've had both bikes professionally fit.

What does this mean, exactly? In my mind, a "professional" fit costs $100+ and lasts for an hour or more. Most fitters that charge this much money will be happy to see you for a (free) follow-up if the fit isn't working for you. If you haven't had this level of fit, I would highly recommend it. If you have, I would recommend that you schedule a follow-up visit to see if they can help refine the fit. Alternatively, you might want to work through Competitive Cyclist's fit calculator (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO) and see how the numbers they suggest compare to your current fit. The system they use is similar to those used by many professional fitters...

Fit changes are often counter-intuitive and my guess is that we're not going to be able to diagnose your problems over the Internet. As an example: I used to have lots of neck and shoulder pain after 2-3 hours on the bike. I fixed my problems by: 1) lowering the handlebars, 2) switching to a narrower bar, and 3) getting comfortable with climbing/sprinting out of the saddle. Perversely enough, lowering the bars seemed to make the biggest difference. The only explanation I have is that the slightly lower bars force me to rely on my core strength rather than supporting myself with arms and shoulders. Climbing or sprinting out of the saddle for a few minutes 2-3 times an hour seems to be a great way to release any tension that is building up in my neck or shoulders (or back or butt or ...)

Also the SWEET race bikes are usually set with the hoods forward in the race tuck position. Myself, I roll my bars back a bit and slide the shifters a bit up and back for comfort. I'm not sure how it would look to the forum members ona SWEET racing bike but heck, I'd rather look FRED and be comfy than having pain.:D

I think both of them have the brake levers pretty much up and down, at a 90 degree angle to the floor. Is this what you mean, or is there something else I should check?

I haven't been on a bike at all since Sunday. It's Wednesday. :( I need to do something about this, but I don't know what.

My stem is flipped upright. The shop says they can order a different one ... but I have no idea which one to tell them to get. I won't know if it's right or not until I've spent a couple hours and maybe 50 miles on the bike after it's changed, and if I get it wrong, it's back to square one. I've got an adjustable stem on my other bike, but, on that frame, pulling it upward enough seems to make it too short, and anyway, I can't pull the stem off that bike, because I'm able to ride the old one.

Unfortunately, I don't have a working camera, so I can't post any useful pics. This might be some help, though - this is the old bike, which I can spend three or four hours on, and then not be in terrible pain:

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=167808&d=1283361289

This is the new one, where two hours in the saddle means I won't be able to get on a bike or in a kayak for two days:

http://www.cervelo.com/img/bikes/rs/rs-690-380.jpg

Would it make sense for me to exchange my 58 cm frame for a 60 or 62? It seems like I'd be able to lower the seat quite a bit, so that I don't need a stack of risers and a crazy angle stem to get the bars level with the seat...?

"I've had both bikes professionally fit."

If you were professionally fitted, go back to the fitter and make them do it right! You payed money for a fit, they are obligated to make sure you are fitted properly.

It's alot easier on the shoulders if you face the bike rightface for the pics!:D

Your too much!

That is a pretty aggessive riding position. Are your other bikes setup that with the bars so much lower than the saddle?

I would add a threadless stem riser

somethinglikethis (http://www.rei.com/product/700227)

I had a problem with my Eisentraut (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bustercrb/4475597893/in/set-72157623483647522/) and added the stem riser. And on my newest bike, I did the same as MrBeanz and left the steerer uncut so I could raise and lower the stem as I aged.

I did ask that the forktube on my last new bike be left uncut to allow for more height and spacers.

I think that's what I'll have to do on my next road bike, one I'm hoping I'll be able to get before the end of the year. But coming from the Land of the Old (as well as the Land of the Large), I know way more about quill stems and threaded headsets than the current varieties. It seems to me the only time you have the option of leaving that tube long is before the bike is assembled. Is that right? A bike right off the sales floor isn't going to have that sort of thing as an available option, I would think.

If I'm wrong, I'd love for someone to say so. Oh, and also tell me why I'm wrong. As much as I enjoy terse statements like "you're wrong" from my wife, in this case I need more information than that brief phrase imparts.

That is a pretty aggessive riding position. Are your other bikes setup that with the bars so much lower than the saddle?

My other bike, the CX, has the top of the bars is about level with the seat. The geometry is a bit different, though; do I just get something with enough rise to put the bars level with the seat, or is there more to it than that?


I would add a threadless stem riser

somethinglikethis (http://www.rei.com/product/700227)

I guess I'll figure out what dimensions I need from the LBS tonight, and then head over to REI and hope they have one in stock. Thanks for the tip!

I think that's what I'll have to do on my next road bike, one I'm hoping I'll be able to get before the end of the year. But coming from the Land of the Old (as well as the Land of the Large), I know way more about quill stems and threaded headsets than the current varieties. It seems to me the only time you have the option of leaving that tube long is before the bike is assembled. Is that right? A bike right off the sales floor isn't going to have that sort of thing as an available option, I would think.

If I'm wrong, I'd love for someone to say so. Oh, and also tell me why I'm wrong. As much as I enjoy terse statements like "you're wrong" from my wife, in this case I need more information than that brief phrase imparts.

I purchased a Jamis this past winter. My LBS ordered it for me and I told him that I didn't want the steerer cut. He told me that he doesn't cut steerers until he and the customer decide where the bars should be. I had him leave the steerer uncut, now I have a few inches to raise the bars and can also flip the stem for more adjustment. I originally started with stem as high as it would go and the stem was angled upwards. Took it on a 20 mile ride, then move it one spacer down, rode another 20 miles then flipped the stem. Rode another 20 mile and it felt fine.

My other bike, the CX, has the top of the bars is about level with the seat. The geometry is a bit different, though; do I just get something with enough rise to put the bars level with the seat, or is there more to it than that?



I guess I'll figure out what dimensions I need from the LBS tonight, and then head over to REI and hope they have one in stock. Thanks for the tip!

From the looks of the photo, I am assuming that there isn't any additiional steerer above the stem, then you will need to get something like the stem riser. If there are spacers above the stem, just raise the stem and place spacers below stem.

You could also replace the stem with one that has a 30-40 degree rise.

After thinking about this,

You could try riding your CX for 2-3 hour on the drops only, see if you have the same problem.

With the more aggressive position on the new bike you are placing more weight on your arms and shoulders and making your neck bend further upward.

Assuming you have a good fit It might be really simple. Are you riding with your arms and hands loose? And are the roads you are riding rough? How often do you get off the bike to stretch? All these things have caused me upper body pain but the biggest issue I've had lately has been a weak back. You might try asking some of these guys about exercises you can do to strengthen your back. I've been doing a daily workout for my lower back to strengthen it up for a couple of weeks and I've already gotten to the point where I have felt the need to lower my stem. Apparently biking alone doesn't workout your back enough a lot of times.
I don't know anything about your body but I have developed a theory about overweight riders; overweight men tend to have a lot of th weight upstairs and that means we are often unevenly distributed even when our angles line up. My gut pulls on my back, when I was 40lbs heavier my man boobs pulled on my upper back.

P.S. a flipped stem not be the answer. I know it sounds crazy but unflipping mine back to level actually helped me discomfort level (I know who'd a thunk right?)

You could try riding your CX for 2-3 hour on the drops only, see if you have the same problem.

With the more aggressive position on the new bike you are placing more weight on your arms and shoulders and making your neck bend further upward.

The odd thing is I mostly ride in the drops ( well, the curves, really ) on the CX bike. I'm not really sure why, but it feels more comfortable when I'm doing it. Part of that, I think, is that my brake hoods aren't terribly ergonomic, and especially when I'm in descents, I want a better grip on the bike. But I'm pretty used to riding in the drops on the old bike with its higher bars, and yet I can't do a few hours on the hoods on the new one.

Unfortunately it kind of sounds like I would have been better off ordering the bike, and having it cut to size for me.


Assuming you have a good fit It might be really simple. Are you riding with your arms and hands loose? And are the roads you are riding rough? How often do you get off the bike to stretch? All these things have caused me upper body pain but the biggest issue I've had lately has been a weak back.

I'm heading back to the shop tonight, and will ask about whether any kind of back exercises might help. I get off the bike every now and then, but since I got the new one, I'm in enough pain that stretching really doesn't help the situation. To answer the other questions, I don't lock my elbows, and keep most of my joints pretty loose when I ride. The roads are pretty normal for city streets; some are rougher than others, but nothing terrible. And I've been riding then for a long time, doing much longer rides on the old, heavier, harsher bike, than I'm able to on the new bike without overuse injuries.

In order, like others have stated:

1) Check again the fit.

2) Check your riding position, relaxed with bent elbows and no "death" grip on the handlebars.

3) Rule out a medical problem.

4) Try a recumbent.

So the bike shop has uncut forks, the same that my bike takes. But you can't or shouldn't put more than 40 mm of spacers at the top of the steering tube, and my bike's already got 37.5 mm. And I can't use a riser, because my steering tube is carbon, which isn't compatible.

They had one of these (http://www.rei.com/product/700227?siteId=cjIsd2x-it3792&URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rei.com%2Fproduct%2F700227&PID=3641099&AID=10456937&cm_mmc=CJ-_-Aff-_-3641099-_-10456937) at the shop, and put it on the bike on a trainer without tightening it, then put the bars on it. This instantly felt better, or more relaxed. Which is odd, because the other adjustments we've made take 40 or 50 miles before I can feel them. I feel better, though, having probably seen that I can be comfortable on the bike... ( They'll have two stems on Friday that will put me in a similar position, and I'll test ride each of them for a full day over the weekend. )


3) Rule out a medical problem.

4) Try a recumbent.

I've been thinking about getting a Fredcumbent. :p How would I rule out a medical problem, though? Do I need an x-ray of my spine? My doctor isn't that sophisticated about this ... should I just ask him for a physical therapy prescription? I'd like to either rule out a medical issue, or figure out how to work around one if I have it.

For backs, typically it begins with an x-ray and then you need to do an MRI. since most back damage is soft tissue an X-ray will not show much.

I think both of them have the brake levers pretty much up and down, at a 90 degree angle to the floor. Is this what you mean, or is there something else I should check?
...?

That's what I' talkin' about! The shifter in teh pic are prety much stright forward, I'd slide them back so that the angle is about 20-30 degrees more, towards you. Instead of 90 degrees from teh floor, maybe 120 degrees.

Nut I do agreee with Homey, if you paid for a fitting, I'd go back and have them make it right. They shoud be able to tell you what length stem etc you need. Make sure to insist on a better shifter position that I've mentioned.

Everbody insist on teh race postion and 90 degree shifters. I've been watching the Vuelta and these guys too have their levers at the angle I speak of (not all, several). Some reason, everybody in the forums thinks the levers should be totally race postitoned, comfort should come first.

Check out the shfters on this dude's bike. He won a stage of the Vuelta the other day. His shifters are postioned in a far more relaxed position than the bike in your picture. :thumb:


About 130 degrees.......
http://a.imageshack.us/img227/6605/03320rtr2hpvz.jpg

That's really interesting about the shifter position. I think I'll try that, either tonight, or after I get the new stems. That kind of shortens the reach, and brings your hand position on the bars up a little bit, right?

The first fitting I got was a few months ago, for my old bike. The fitter told me "the brake levers should be 90 degrees from the floor." He didn't say why, though. It was very helpful, but not perfect, and I second-guessed the fitter by rotating the bars back the way you suggested. And things were good. But over the next month or two, I'd still get sore shoulders after a few hours in the saddle, and I rotated them about half way back down. It seemed better, and I rotated them all the way back down, which seemed to be an improvement.

The new bike has different geometry, so this is probably worth a try again. The worst that can happen is I'll learn a little bit more about where things should be, right? :D

I'd rather be comfortable than aerodynamic any day; my goal on the bike is to do longer rides. I have the most fun when I'm exploring neighborhoods I've never had any reason to be in, which are the further away ones ... so losing a race position and finally being able to do a century ride and not be in terrible pain at the end is a win in my book!

The 90 degree is and should be good for crit type races, 90 minutes tucked in a pack looking for every aero advantage and TT efforts. Tickles me when forum members shout "flip it" a soon as they see a pic of a bike. I wonder! :D

It helps to try several positons and combos of turning the bars (by loosening stemface plate), and sliding shifter into different locations of the handlebars.

I got mine so that they are somewhat upright from the 90 degree position, but yet still at a point on the bars where my hands fit on the brake levers while in the drops. Might be a good idea to remove the tape and experiemnt on a trainer till you find the right combination. It's another 10 minutes of work but figure miles and miles of comfort is worth it.

Don't concentrate on shifters only, find the right handlbar position, right shiftlever position and stem. All should be considered when looking for that longed for comfort!:D

I am sure you already have recieved lots of bike fitting advice. For me the only thing that solved my bike pain issues was to switch to a recumbent. Now I ride a Rans crank forward, 100% pain free, and I climb as well as I do on my "normal" bikes.


I'd rather be comfortable than aerodynamic any day; Areodynamics are overrated. I ride 24/7 with my b/f who rides a DF and although i am more upright on my crank forward I go just as fast down hills at similar weights. You can still tuck on a CF making it equal to an upright position on a DF. Most aerodynamic bike is not much faster than your least aerodynamic for an average person.