Fifty Plus (50+) - Ethics class now in session - can cyclists take fruit?

Was out for a ride and ran into something that I thought you folks would likely have opinions on.

Was on a fairly popular suburban commuting route, riding about 3/4 block behind a guy on a vintage steel road bike with a milk crate strapped on the rear rack. Suddenly he pulls off the road and into the yard of a house. As I pass, I notice that he's picking apples from a tree. This particular tree is *loaded* with apples; it may be the most productive apple tree I'd ever seen -- apples are everywhere on the ground, in the tree, on the driveway, etc.

When I look back he's still there, and I just keep going. About 10 blocks later he passes me, smiles at me and says hi. I see a bunch of apples in his milk crate.

Some Important Moral Questions I've been pondering:

1. Is it ok for cyclists to stop and take fruit from a tree in someone's yard?

2. I life fruit, too. Was I a fool for not stopping to grab my own share?

3. Should I have tried to stop him? (He was young and vigorous; I am old and spindly, but I have enough strength to dial 911 on my phone).

4. I was riding a *much* nicer bike then he was. Was it polite for him to have passed me so easily, especially since he was wearing jeans, tennis shoes, and carrying a milk crate full of apples?

Perhaps he had prior permission. Probably not worth the worry on your part. Maybe you should ask for permission too and enjoy some apples with a clear conscience and a pure heart.

Theft is taking something that does not belong to you.

Get permissioon first, as it's usually pretty to get with apples.......

Point 4: Indicates you need to buy a vintage bike :D

Don't worry about getting passed, in his cycling style, he probably does a lot of speed intervals.

Given this statement: apples are everywhere on the ground, in the tree, on the driveway, etc.

I wouldn't have said anything, moved along thinking of pie.

It's his call on picking the fruit, I have other things to worry about, he may know the owner for all I know.

Yeah BB, you should have had an apple too...yummmmmm!

I see all kinds of moral questions here.

1. A Buddhist would say: "Take only that which is freely offered." I'm not a very good Buddhist. In your case, I might have taken one apple to eat at the time but I wouldn't take any extras.

2. What is your responsibility regarding the other rider? MYOB? Ask if he had permission? Verbally chastise him? Call the cops? I'd probably MYOB but I'm not saying that's the perfect answer.

3. Did you happen to be wearing a matching jersey and shorts? If that's the case, we are sure to get a post from the other guy saying how he "smoked" some kitted out dude even though he was burdened with a milk crate full of stolen apples.

If you ask and get permission, it's fine.

Perhaps he was riding so fast because the owner of the tree chased him off with a shotgun.:eek:

People with orchards get very pissed when someone helps themselves to fruit.
People with messy trees in their yard are usually more than happy for you to take all you want.

Having gone to an ag school, and therefore ridden in lots of farm country, I was told early on that fruit on the ground is OK. Don't pick off the trees..

After all these years we still have not learned a thing from Adam and Eve.

No on all counts.

Remember what happened to Dorothy, Toto, the Scarecrow, and the Tin Man when they took apples without asking?

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No

There are places in the Imperial valley where you could get shot, arrested and /or tossed in jail for just such an act. It doesn't matter if you are cycling or driving a truck without permission the person is a thief.

If the person had permission no problem. If not there is no difference from him going onto the property and taking a nice set of wheels off of a bike parked on the porch.

I teach professional ethics in a graduate program for people earning a Masters of Human Service. In the social service world the first rule of ethics is "DO NO HARM". So my counter question to you is, was any harm done?

I teach professional ethics in a graduate program for people earning a Masters of Human Service. In the social service world the first rule of ethics is "DO NO HARM". So my counter question to you is, was any harm done?

Professional ethics doesn't take right and wrong into consideration................................ what a crock! Which is why the business world (including politics) is so screwed up ------ "it's Ok if it's expected to be crooked - sheeesh!"

I teach professional ethics in a graduate program for people earning a Masters of Human Service. In the social service world the first rule of ethics is "DO NO HARM". So my counter question to you is, was any harm done?

Yes, if the apple owner needed each apple to sell or sustain himself.

I have a hazel nut tree that is on the border of me and my neighbour. I planted the tree and currently the branches are overladen with nuts. Far too many for me to pick- or eat so I will be happy for my neighbour to pick any nuts that are ripe for picking.

They would be ready in about a months time but we won't get any- The squirrels get them.

But apples- round here you have to be selective in what you take from the gardens. They are put out in boxes in the drive for anyone to take. Seems everyone has so many apples that they just collect the windfalls for everyone to take. I wait a while till the Cox's Orange Pippins get put out---The only apple worth eating. The rest are only good for cider.

Yes, if the apple owner needed each apple to sell or sustain himself.

That doesn't matter - they all BELONG to the owner - not anyone else!

That doesn't matter - they all BELONG to the owner - not anyone else!

I agree. I was only answering the question about specific harm.

Answer: Knock on the door and ask permission... as "You saw someone else loading up a milk crate, but you wouldn't to take any without asking."

Be prepared to describe the other guy in detail, if asked. ;-)

You forgot the most important detail:

What kind of apples were they?

If they were the kind you can make into a pie, and he was a bicycle rider, it is obvious he was going on a "pie ride." Pie rides are always OK.

OTOH, perhaps previously there was a sign there - to the effect - "Please take all the apples you want." - or he had previously asked the owner who had stated the same thing.

You simply do not have enough info.

I would be guilty - if I saw the abundance of apples, especially on the ground, I might pick one to try... that said, taking a box full without permission seems very wrong (more wrong than eating just one).

Whats really wrong is being passed by a dork on an old bikestealing apples. What's the matter with you!!!!???

Yes, if the apple owner needed each apple to sell or sustain himself.


Hey, Junior! OFF THE LAWN!

Waste not.

Want not.

Yes, if the apple owner needed each apple to sell or sustain himself.

I would maintain that even without that need, it would be wrong. Possession may not be the prettiest word in our language, but it does mean something.

OK, ethics:

Well, a utilitarian ethicist might say that the fruit should be taken where it maximizes "good" for the greatest number of people. So if the other cyclist were taking the fruit to give to a food bank, it might be ethical. But we don't know how the fruit would have been used by its original owner. If it were just going to drop on the ground and rot, then it would be OK, according to a utilitarian, to take it.

From a Kantian deontological perspective, we defer to his Categorical Imperative. The first formulation is, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction." Simplistically, if we can say that everyone should at all times be able to remove fruit from any tree, then it's OK. Well, this is likely not the case, so what the guy did is likely to be unethical.

The second formulation of Kant's Categorical Imperative: "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end." Since the owner of the apples would likely not consent to theft of the apples just as we would not consent were we the owners, then this becomes unethical. Unless of course we gave permission, in which case it is no longer theft.

This is really greatly simplified, but it all boils down succinctly to the Golden Rule. Or the over-used caution, "what if everybody did that?" In which case you defer to Yossarian in Catch-22: "Well then I'd be a damned fool not to!"

Luis

Sounds a lot like socialism to me....... and theft!

Professional ethics doesn't take right and wrong into consideration................................ what a crock! Which is why the business world (including politics) is so screwed up ------ "it's Ok if it's expected to be crooked - sheeesh!"

You, sir, know not of what you speak, and I expect attempts to enlighten you would fall upon deaf ears and a mind already closed.

Join the real world -------- and learn how to spell (or use the correct word). MHO

OK, ethics:

Well, a utilitarian ethicist might say that the fruit should be taken where it maximizes "good" for the greatest number of people. So if the other cyclist were taking the fruit to give to a food bank, it might be ethical. But we don't know how the fruit would have been used by its original owner. If it were just going to drop on the ground and rot, then it would be OK, according to a utilitarian, to take it.

From a Kantian deontological perspective, we defer to his Categorical Imperative. The first formulation is, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction." Simplistically, if we can say that everyone should at all times be able to remove fruit from any tree, then it's OK. Well, this is likely not the case, so what the guy did is likely to be unethical.

The second formulation of Kant's Categorical Imperative: "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end." Since the owner of the apples would likely not consent to theft of the apples just as we would not consent were we the owners, then this becomes unethical. Unless of course we gave permission, in which case it is no longer theft.

This is really greatly simplified, but it all boils down succinctly to the Golden Rule. Or the over-used caution, "what if everybody did that?" In which case you defer to Yossarian in Catch-22: "Well then I'd be a damned fool not to!"

Luis

When all is said and done the egoist perspective wins.

In reading the original post a second time, I wonder if the fellow has permission. Perhaps it was the home of a relative or friend. Maybe he had done chores at this home earlier in the day had had bartered for the fruit. There is much in this situation we do not know except for the bit about passing you.;)

Taking someone else's property is always wrong; however, it reminds me of the early 80's when I was in Germany -- near Heideberg. On one road there was a huge apple tree with limbs hanging over the road. So many apples fell on the road, it was as if the road was covered with applesauce. After some consideration, I decided it was ok to pick up the apples from the road, since they would be smashed by cars anyway. I averaged about 10 miles per apple.

Join the real world -------- and learn how to spell (or use the correct word). MHO

I live in the real world every day. I work with those who are sick, poor, unable to work due to injuries sustained in serving in the armed forces, those who have been the victims of crime, those who have been born with disabilities that make daily life a challenge that many of us couldn't imagine. I attempt to be somewhat less judgmental than you appear to be. Perhaps you should come live in my world for a bit. But then again, that might be a very big mistake. People serving others need to have some level of compassion and an ability to support individuals as they strive to maintain or improve their very quality of life. If you did any real study of the issue you would find that those working in human services have the highest applied standard of ethics of any profession in the United States. That is, that while there are those who do not behave in ethical ways, more in this field do than in other fields. Pardon me for being human and making a simple mistake in my original post. I've corrected it so as not to further upset you or bring upon my head your wrath. I'm not sure why you react so strongly in this thread, but I will now bow out and spend my time in more productive ways.

Having gone to an ag school, and therefore ridden in lots of farm country, I was told early on that fruit on the ground is OK. Don't pick off the trees..

That may have changed. Years ago I saw signs in Citrus groves saying trespassers would be prosecuted, but that also had smaller print explaining that disease can easily be tracked in.

But for orchards in areas where people are honest the on the ground is fine principle stands, they are no longer saleable.

But for orchards in areas where people are honest the on the ground is fine principle stands, they are no longer saleable.

Keith, I think you're right; last week I was riding along some roads where cattle had recently passed (as in they were herding cattle along, on the road..) Riding after them was really an adventure in dodging what appeared to be mud but was actually runny cow poo. :) The entire time we were dodging this mess I was thinking back to the mad cow issues they were having in Europe a couple seasons ago, and how it affected the bike races there because they didn't want it to spread by being tracked all over the place.

I went to school out in the Valley, and back then (30+ years ago) it was understood that apricots on the ground were OK because of the reason you stated. I'd like to think that I can go riding out there again and still enjoy those cooling (over)ripe apricots on 100+ deg days. They were real life savers, but if I'm gonna be shot at I guess I better pack more water!

One would think that the owner of the property would pick the fruit or hire someone to pick it and have it sent to the packing house for sale or the local weekend "Farmer's Market". That way he can make some side money rather than let it fall to the ground so that the worms and insects can eat it.

Whoever the owner is, maybe the guy living there is a renter and he doesn't give a hoot about them apples.

In moral decision making there are a few principals I can think of. The moral absolute, "thou shalt not steal". Then there's the person committing the act, culpability. The presumption is what we call in civil law, willful intent....knowingly and willfully...full knowledge and with free will.

These are some important moral questions so I will consider your moral dilemma, grasshopper.

1. Is it ok for cyclists to stop and take fruit from a tree in someone's yard?
It is OK for insects and the like. Moths and worms take only what is rightfully theirs as creatures of nature. However, we are fallen children of Eve who have already tasted the forbidden fruit in ages past. Therefore, we have no right and must be given the apple.

2. I life fruit, too. Was I a fool for not stopping to grab my own share?
The term "grab" suggests avarice and, subconsciously, you may have already answered this question. What would be considered a share? How much is more than your share? Indeed, one apple is one too many and two not enough for a thief.

3. Should I have tried to stop him? (He was young and vigorous; I am old and spindly, but I have enough strength to dial 911 on my phone).
From what you described, we have not determined his culpability just by empirical evidence. In fact, he may have been invited by the owner to take the apples and brought along his crate for just that purpose. Your underlying desire may have been motivated by jealousy rather than righteousness.

4. I was riding a *much* nicer bike then he was. Was it polite for him to have passed me so easily, especially since he was wearing jeans, tennis shoes, and carrying a milk crate full of apples?[/QUOTE]
This statement smacks of elitism and says that Freds are not entitled to the fruits of their labors because of their station in life. Benge, what would your mother say if you posed these questions? What does your heart tell you? If you take an apple today, what will be considered fair game tomorrow. Now, say a good act of contrition and watch "Wall Street 2" for atonement.

You can do anything you want as long as no one can stop you ~~ Joseph Heller - Catch 22

After all these years we still have not learned a thing from Adam and Eve.

That your children might die if you eat fruit in a garden? :eek:

Then again, since Adam and Eve's sin was to gain knowledge, it's probably better not to learn from their plight. :thumb:

Some of these replies are referring to orchards. The OP stated the tree was in the yard, which to me implies only one or two trees. Having said that, one place I lived I had a friend about a mile away with both an apple and a pear tree in his yard. He liked the looks of the trees but didn't want to mess with picking the fruit, so he told a couple of us that we could come over and help ourselves anytime we felt like it.

I seem to recall a very old law that said something about a traveler (bike rider is traveling) being allowed to pick fruit from trees he passes along the way...however, filling a crate I would think is just wrong, unless as already stated he had permission. Either way I would follow the MYOB mantra given the situation.

Love the theological bent this discussion has taken.

Just to offer more to ponder:

1) Perhaps the cyclist, in a flight of Augustian preconversion rebellion, stole the apples simply to be evil? But, in the same vein, perhaps this act of evil is what was required to make the cyclist aware of his depravity. Any effort to stop him may have violated the tenet of Inshallah.

2) In ancient Israel the people were commanded by Old Testament law not to glean from the periphery of their fields so that there would be food available for those truly in need. Just because the cyclist rode a really nice bike didn't necessarily mean that he was well off. That might have been his last worldly possession. In that case he would have been OK.

3) Then again, if we were under shari'a, we'd have to cut off his hand.

Glad I could help.

It was rude of the picker not to offer you an apple as he smoked you.

In reading the original post a second time, I wonder if the fellow has permission. Perhaps it was the home of a relative or friend. Maybe he had done chores at this home earlier in the day had had bartered for the fruit. There is much in this situation we do not know except for the bit about passing you.;)

Wow, thanks for all the thoughtful replies. One thing I wanted to address was whether the cyclist had permission or not. I've thought about that, ever since I saw it happen. Without going into tons of detail on the route involved -- and based on where I encountered the cyclist, and then saw him turn off -- I'm pretty sure he was transiting from one part of our metropolitan area to another. I think it was unlikely that he knew the owner of the home, but *very* likely that he had passed that way daily, and was aware of the amount of apples available on that particular tree.

^^^ I still say "Waste Not, Want Not"

We steal every day to live.

We steal the cow's milk, the beast's flesh. We steal flowers before they seed to amuse ourselves. We kill parts of the creation that we may find offensive (roaches come to mind) but are essentially harmless.

Some people own more than they can "husband" as the St. James bible puts it. Why let it go to waste? Others are dying from want.

Stealing green fruit or spoiling ripe by selfishly not harvesting it are equal faults to me.

Hey Benge,

Would you please go ask the owner if you can have some apples, then come back here and tell us what he/she says? I am dying to know.

I have a friend who has a pear tree. I called him to ask if I could have some pears. He didn't answer, but I was 99.99% sure it would be OK.
I went and picked some pears off the ground - while riding my bike btw. I am Mexican and he likes to tease me about it. I texted him that I saw a Mexican stealing his pears. He got a big kick out of that.
Honest. That happened last week.

Love the theological bent this discussion has taken.

Just to offer more to ponder:

1) Perhaps the cyclist, in a flight of Augustian preconversion rebellion, stole the apples simply to be evil? But, in the same vein, perhaps this act of evil is what was required to make the cyclist aware of his depravity. Any effort to stop him may have violated the tenet of Inshallah.

2) In ancient Israel the people were commanded by Old Testament law not to glean from the periphery of their fields so that there would be food available for those truly in need. Just because the cyclist rode a really nice bike didn't necessarily mean that he was well off. That might have been his last worldly possession. In that case he would have been OK.

3) Then again, if we were under shari'a, we'd have to cut off his hand.

Glad I could help.As usual Zzzzzzzzzzz!

Wow, lots of replies and a lot of thought went into them.

I was once told that "if it's right, it's right. If you have to think too much about it, it must not be right". The apples don't belong to you. The other rider may have had permission, but if not, then he was stealing. Yeah, it's not a huge crime, but I also heard "that a man that will steal a little, if given the opportunity, will also steal a lot".

If you have to justify WHY it's okay to take an apple, that's a good sign you shouldn't.