Fifty Plus (50+) - Yet Another Saddle Thread. But the others didn't help!

A relative newbie is me. My butt hurt and I was so numb I had trouble doing things. So, I read and read and read everything I could find. I asked others what to do.

Some recommended a softer saddle, some recommended a firmer saddle, some recommended this and some that. Some even said pain is part of the game and just shut up and ride. Several said until you get over a 1000 miles in a summer(April-September) you just have't trained your butt yet.

Well, I'm well over 1000 miles since April when the snow left. In fact I'm knocking on 1500 since then. I've changed saddles twice. No more numbness but at about 30 miles my sit bones get Very Uncomfortable. On my two 60+ mile rides I spent as much time standing as sitting for the last 20 miles. In fact now my speed and distance are limited not by strength or endurance, but by sit bone soreness.

I move around, I stand for a minute of so every few mnutes. I've changed saddles to a harder one and then to a wider, flatter one. No difference. My sit bones hurt.

I don't think I should have to spend the next year sampling saddles until I find one that works, should I? Plus, with winter coming on there is a logistical problem of testing.

What to do?

Maybe I just need to accept that my rides will be 30 miles or shorter? Maybe despite my enjoying cycling this just isn't my sport?

Well, there is always a recumbant; they have an entirely different type of seat and seated position.

Talking about that, you need to realize that the upright bicycle is a basic design from the 1890s as the "safety bicycle." At that time, the designers had no idea of the science and art known as ergonomics. Seated exercise is a problem, and when you compromise to reduce weight, something has to "give." That give spot can be a royal pain in the @#$. So how do "modern" cyclists cope with that? Well, they go through different styles of seats until they find one that is right, go through different positions until they find one which works (have you done anything on your cycling position?), and also learn to bear up to the pain that comes. Even professional bicycle racers have seat problems; I heard on the recent Tour de France that Lance Armstrong had sores in painful parts, and that they were not caused by falls.

I was not really joking about the recumbant design above. I have one, a Rans Stratus (http://www.ransbikes.com/Stratus.htm), and find its seat to be very comfortable and the cycling position to be much more ergonomically sound. You might want to read about how the Stratus came about in this article by Randy Schlitter (http://www.ransbikes.com/ITRStratus.htm). Maybe this could be a birthday or Christmas present to yourself.

By the way, congratulations on the mileage since April. That is quite an accomplishment.

Good luck,

John

how much do you weigh? how tall are you?

have you had your butt measured (Specialized Butt-O-meter is a good quick thing). A saddle which is too narrow is obviously, no good.

the better saddles for rides of more than a few miles, are all firm, to a relative measure...

more important, saddle 'shape' has a large affect on comfort.

how you are positioned on the bike, has a huge affect on your butt

what are you wearing?

how long - riding time - does it take for you to do the 60? how long does it take to do your 30?

often issues are not just one thing, all of the above may be contributing to the whole.

the prior threads have covered all this dozens of times. the reason they may nto seem relevent is likely cause you can't identify whats contributing to your issues.
You might be best served by finding someone local who has real experience. I'm not referring to someone who has spent money on a fancy bike and kit. I'm talkin about someone who has 20/30 years coaching/working with riders. This is usually not found at most LBS.

you give almost no real info on your situation, other than your ass hurts after some time in the saddle.
not sure what you expect to define with your post.

A relative newbie is me. My butt hurt and I was so numb I had trouble doing things. So, I read and read and read everything I could find. I asked others what to do.

Some recommended a softer saddle, some recommended a firmer saddle, some recommended this and some that. Some even said pain is part of the game and just shut up and ride. Several said until you get over a 1000 miles in a summer(April-September) you just have't trained your butt yet.

Well, I'm well over 1000 miles since April when the snow left. In fact I'm knocking on 1500 since then. I've changed saddles twice. No more numbness but at about 30 miles my sit bones get Very Uncomfortable. On my two 60+ mile rides I spent as much time standing as sitting for the last 20 miles. In fact now my speed and distance are limited not by strength or endurance, but by sit bone soreness.

I move around, I stand for a minute of so every few mnutes. I've changed saddles to a harder one and then to a wider, flatter one. No difference. My sit bones hurt.

I don't think I should have to spend the next year sampling saddles until I find one that works, should I? Plus, with winter coming on there is a logistical problem of testing.

What to do?

Maybe I just need to accept that my rides will be 30 miles or shorter? Maybe despite my enjoying cycling this just isn't my sport?

I went through a period of this type of problem. I did not wait for the sit bones to start hurting, at the start of my ride i started doing stretches and unloading them every few minutes. At first i did these stretches only after the pain started but it did not relieve all the pain. When i did them at the start in increased the distance i can go without it becoming a problem. I went 67 miles last Tuesday and 57 on Thursday, did 48 miles without stopping and no sit bone problem. It took me about a month of doing the stretches to find relief. I don't stop or get off the bike to stretch. I unclip one foot and point my whole leg straight back and rotate my foot, then bend at the knee and raise my calf and foot up while gliding with all my weight on the other foot. I then switch sides and repeat. I usually am going about 20mph and slow to about 14 then speed up to 20 and switch. After about a month i was doing less and less until now i don't need to do this at all. You have to lean forward to get your leg to go straight back. I have done this at higher speeds as well. It takes a little time to find the right pressure to steer straight, so start at a slow speed. Hope this helps. If not then good luck on the saddle hunt.

Thanks LA.

When a person gets to this kind of place they have tried several things and have, at least in my case, been fitted by a knowledgeable person. I guess what I'm looking for are two things: A direction of where to to next and some tips of things to try that have solved the problem for others.

Your post is right in line with number two.

You haven't mentioned shorts so do you use shorts with a liner fitted? That is not for comfort but if not wearing cycling shorts-then perhaps a seam is rubbing the wrong place.

Never used it myself but Chamois cream. Others swear by it but if it would help the sitbones- I have no idea.

But what weight of rider- what style of bike- what saddles have you used and a pic of you on the bike might help.

My butt aches for you!!

I don't have any suggestions, except that 30 miles is a pretty good distance compared with the rest of the world. Don't give up yet. Perhaps those long Alaskan winters, dark days, cold and correspondingly less riding time are a factor?

30 miles was the limit for me as well for a long time. I tried the Specialized butt meter and it said I should be on a 155mm saddle, I bought one, and then a different one and they were no better. I'm currently on a Cobb saddle, 130mm and it's the best thing yet. I've tried Brooks, Selle Italia, Specialized, Bontrager...you name it, but this one came with a money back 6 month return policy.

http://cobbcycling.com/cart/V-Flow_Max_C1P4.cfm

I've been riding a Specialized Toupe for several years. I can use it for all kinds of rides but if the ride is long enough I will get some soreness. I have come to accept that. But this week I remounted a Fizik Alliante saddle to my Ti bike in anticipation of longer slower rides through the winter. The shape and padding of the Alliante dictates I raise my bars or the soft nose will cause numbness. I did that and rode nearly 50 miles yesterday in total comfort. No numbness or soreness. A century will be the next test. I have another Alliante that I will put on my Roubaix. I'll also have to raise the bars on that bike but I think the higher bar doesn't really affect my speed much at all. I'm so comfortable that I can just pedal well and as well late into the ride.

Fit is a dynamic thing for me but for longer rides comfort trumps all other considerations.

I thought the Terry Fly I'd been riding for a few years was comfortable. Last April I wanted something just a little more comfortable. Went to a Specialized dealer and they did the butt-o-meter thing. Bought a Phenom (143 mm for me). Very comfortable from the first ride. :thumb:

Good luck with your search for the perfect saddle.

Like Stepfam says, what about shorts? When I started 1.5 yrs ago and was training for the Miami MS 150 4 mo later, the most common advise I heard was "spend at least $100 and get the best bike shorts you can." I've since learned the truth of this advise, and would add to it use chamois cream, and get a good seat that fits.

I'm not sure that any combo of shorts, creams, and seats will make a long bike ride feel like sitting in the lazy boy, but like hand position, you should be able to move about, stand, and reposition and get into a satisfactory position.

Yesterday on the 115 mi ride around Lake Okeechobee, everything was fine for the first 65 mi. Then we stopped for lunch. For the next 10 or 15 mi my butt could not get comfortable. I don't remember ever having so much trouble finding a comfortable position. But there was not choice. I had to keep going, and I had to keep up. Eventually, for what ever reason, the relative comfort returned. I was able to do the usual moves and ride happy.

None of us can tell you what your particular magic saddle or magic combination of saddle, shorts, saddle adjustment, bike setup, fitness and adaptation will be. Some are lucky and find it quickly. Others take years to find it. Some, I suppose, never do. It took me a few years to find a good solution. That was many years ago and I have needed to make adjustments over the years as I changed.

Best I can offer is that your solution is out there for you to find (probably).

When I started riding I bought an inexpensive pair of Aerotechdesign shorts - these were good for about 20miles even with chamois cream. I bought the next most expensive pair from the same company (now have 4 pair) and shorts are no longer an issue. Next came the saddle - tried 2-3 saddles, but around 40 miles my butt would really start to both me. Bought a Selle An-atomica and my problem is solved. I can ride at least a 100K usually without noticing the saddle, but flat rides which offer little change in position can still be a bit of a bother. Now the Selle An-atomica is heavy and we have two on our tandem, but nothing is more important on a long ride in my opinion than butt comfort.

Several things have been mentioned that make sense. Shorts: Where I am selection is extremely limited but I'll be down in Denver again next month where it is just a matter of finding the right store. Right now I'm wearing Sugoi Evolution shorts. To help me what do y'all wear? What kind of price range are those shorts?

My wife says that my butt misery is because when I took off the 25 pounds it all came from my gut and butt. So, there isn't anything over the sit bones but skin. What y'all say about shorts fits right into that. Since I've been measured and fitted to bike and saddle maybe the answer is changing shorts.

One thing this thread has in common with all the rest is that there are a couple posts that make the process of getting comfortable sound very hit or miss, or magic as BluesDawg says. That helps explain why I've met so many people who have tried cycling and given it up, eh?

I'm not ready to give up. But, given the length of my cycling season I've got to get some direction so I don't spend years finding an answer.

Prostate surgery in 2001 and for the next 6 years I had pain. Tried just about every saddle going and even tried the OLD Brooks that I had tried before surgery. NO saddle worked. And that was on the Tandem- The mountain bike and even tried the wifes bike with a gel filled womans saddle. That was the best of the lot but only for 20 miles. All these were mountain bikes with upright riding position.

Then in 2007 I bought a road bike. Basic Giant OCR3 with basic components- including the saddle. That was it-- The more laid out position of a road bike worked for me. The saddle was only good for 6 months before pain started to come in again so went back to the Original style I used to ride of a Flite Titanium saddle. This was still a flite saddle but the gel max. The gel pad is small but the saddle has a cutaway and has just a bit of padding before you hit the firm base. Next bike and I got a Selle "Aero" saddle. Same shape and width as the gel max and no gel- just a bit of cushioning. Both saddles work for me.

I tried the Specialised Buttometer and according to it- I should be riding a 145 saddle. The Aero and the Flite are both 130. Tried the 145 in the shop on a bike before I bought it and it was not right.

One thing I found worked for me after the surgery- was to go to my LBS and sit on saddles. They had a stool that I put the saddle on and if I felt no pain I would buy the saddle. Due to the surgery- My internal body shape was adapting so a comfy saddle this week- was pain in a months time. Some of those saddles were cheap ones so try the sit test and see what type of saddle suits you. You may be lucky and find the magic cure. Or you could have problems for a while longer.

And Latitude-- Giordana Tenax bibs. 2 pairs now and they are good. Also have a cheaper pair of Giordana's for summer use- a lighter material but the same liner. Price difference of $ to £ but but these are high-Mid range bibs. I used to pay £30 for good Bibs-Or £5 from the sales bin. The Giordanas range from £45 to£60 before haggling.

I really appreciate your inputs. One, about the bibs, may be closer than anything else. I had a pair of Specialized bibs in the old size lying on the floor of my closet. They were on sale a year ago and I bought them with the idea of trying bibs but never got around to it. Today I did 38 miles wearing them and with a break for a PayDay at the 20 mile point. Much thinner pad than the Sugois. But, I am not nearly as sore tonight as I was yesterday after 30 miles.

So, after the holiday I'm going to visit my LBS about the saddle and I'm going shopping for some bibs.

I've found every saddle I've owned - Brooks Pro, B17, Selle Anatomica, Toupe, E3, and others - must be adjusted to it's optimum position fo ryou. Finding it does not mean you'll never have pain, it means you'll stop the pain you're having now.

What works best for me now is a Selle Anatomica (clydesdale and non-clyde). I'm lately using the latest Performance Ultra shorts, from Performance mail-order. Get the right size - I've lost a little weight and moved to a Medium from a large. I have a bib of that type in for "audition," but I can't say yet that this fine actor gets the job. Those who are sticking around include the Selle An saddles, the Ultras, and a B17 Imperial. The B17 Narrow Imperial is not real good for me, and neither is a standard B17, a Brooks Professional, a small handful of Selle Italias, or a vintage Ideal 92 Diagonale.

In high school and college I rode Brooks Pros, and those were excellent then. Now they don't work at all for me.

I've been searching for a good comfort combo for nearly 10 years now, and it's gettign pretty darn good. Leather saddles, such as the B17 Imperial and the Selle Anatomicas, that started out pretty good have become very good. In contrast, the Toupes and the smaller brother the Alias, start out well but do not keep me comfy beyond about 35 miles. This summer I've been doing metrics, and the Selle Anatomicas have been very good for that distance. I'm sure there's a lot more in them.

The Selle An-atomica saddle comes with a very good set of directions for adjustment that provide some insight into what to look for in adjusting a saddle or making a change. For example,the directions suggest gradually tightening the saddle until the contact points become "hot spots" at which point back of a quarter turn or whatever amount eliminates the hot spots. This absolutely works with the SA. This would suggest that a conventional saddle which continues to produce hot spots after several weeks is probably too hard. Also note the instruction to tip the saddle up slightly if the rider is having crotch discomfort; this absolutely works.

By all means start with better shorts. they don't need to cost $100, but money spent on shorts is money well spent. I haven't found a need to go to bibs, but in a hot, humid area I can see that bibs would really help keeping things in place with all that water sloshing around.

The Selle An-atomica saddle comes with a very good set of directions for adjustment that provide some insight into what to look for in adjusting a saddle or making a change. For example,the directions suggest gradually tightening the saddle until the contact points become "hot spots" at which point back of a quarter turn or whatever amount eliminates the hot spots. This absolutely works with the SA. This would suggest that a conventional saddle which continues to produce hot spots after several weeks is probably too hard. Also note the instruction to tip the saddle up slightly if the rider is having crotch discomfort; this absolutely works.

By all means start with better shorts. they don't need to cost $100, but money spent on shorts is money well spent. I haven't found a need to go to bibs, but in a hot, humid area I can see that bibs would really help keeping things in place with all that water sloshing around.

+1! And the words "gradually" and "slightly" are critical!

Latitude-sorry to hear of the sit bone issues. All I can offer is there a solution. 30 miles should just be a start and not the end. Heck-there are a number of us that ride a lot of miles and even on back to back days and saddles are not an issue.

My experience has been too much padding in the shorts is not helpful-sounds like you might be getting there as well. I've had good luck with Selle Italia saddles so you might check some of those out as well. I've been using the SI Prolight gel for several years as it's a little wider than the Flite and others-plus it has a cutout. The type of rail on a saddle can make a difference on how much road vibration you pick up, too. Good luck-there should not be a issue with doing rides 60-100 mile due to the saddle.

Just a thought, but is the saddle height okay for you? Too high can cause issues as well.

Looks like most of us have a story to tell re saddle misery. I rode the Specialized Allez seat from the LBS and regular bike shorts w/chamois for a few years with only minor irritation. Then my belly got a bit bigger and, apparently, the shorts wouldn't stay put. I went to a bib short and it helped. Also my 250 pound mail man buddy was riding a Selle Italia SLR, a tiny sliver of a saddle. So I shopped for one on EBay. I've been riding it for a year and found out less is more. Then with the recent heat spell I got saddle sores. Nowhere near my sit bones. I took 4 days off to heal, switched back to the other EBay seat I bought, a Selle Italia Flite, bought some Chamois Butt'r, wear two pair bib shorts and I seem to be on the mend. Bib shorts are not all the same. Pearl Izumi is the gold standard I think. Prepare to pay dearly.

A relative newbie is me. My butt hurt and I was so numb I had trouble doing things. So, I read and read and read everything I could find. I asked others what to do.

Some recommended a softer saddle, some recommended a firmer saddle, some recommended this and some that. Some even said pain is part of the game and just shut up and ride. Several said until you get over a 1000 miles in a summer(April-September) you just have't trained your butt yet.

Well, I'm well over 1000 miles since April when the snow left. In fact I'm knocking on 1500 since then. I've changed saddles twice. No more numbness but at about 30 miles my sit bones get Very Uncomfortable. On my two 60+ mile rides I spent as much time standing as sitting for the last 20 miles. In fact now my speed and distance are limited not by strength or endurance, but by sit bone soreness.

I move around, I stand for a minute of so every few mnutes. I've changed saddles to a harder one and then to a wider, flatter one. No difference. My sit bones hurt.

I don't think I should have to spend the next year sampling saddles until I find one that works, should I? Plus, with winter coming on there is a logistical problem of testing.

What to do?

Maybe I just need to accept that my rides will be 30 miles or shorter? Maybe despite my enjoying cycling this just isn't my sport?

Your fit and weight distribtion is probably wrong, including the tilt of your saddle. What you need to do is experiment a little, and get a little smarter about fitting yourself to different bikes. It will pay off in the long run. And, there are some great saddles out therr, like the Selle SMP line. Find a bike store that will will let you demo. 30 miles is a warm-up ride, you should not view this distance as any limitation.

30 miles was the limit for me as well for a long time. I tried the Specialized butt meter and it said I should be on a 155mm saddle, I bought one, and then a different one and they were no better. I'm currently on a Cobb saddle, 130mm and it's the best thing yet. I've tried Brooks, Selle Italia, Specialized, Bontrager...you name it, but this one came with a money back 6 month return policy.

http://cobbcycling.com/cart/V-Flow_Max_C1P4.cfm

I switched to a Cobb this spring and love it. This is the third saddle I've had on this bike and by far the most comfortable.

Wonderful comments. Somehow they seem to have a different perspective than those in other threads on this subject. Perhaps it is the language y'all have chosen to use?

One of the difficulties for this summer is that my cycling for this summer is just about over. We are now into the Leaves Falling time which means that soon only the most hearty will be riding. I'm not one of them.

But, I will be in the Denver area in Oct and again at Thanksgiving. Each time, if the weather permits, I'll be putting on a couple hundred miles. The bike there is the same make and model but a year older than the one I ride here. So, I will do some advance planning and try at least one of the saddles mentioned here. Also, I think I'm going to try different shorts. I noticed the Specialized Bibs with practically no padding were more comfortable than the Sugoi Evolution shorts with generous padding; counterintuitive to be sure.

Over the non-riding time I will be on te Spin Bike for fitness and, if I can find a place to put it, on a trainer.

If I can get something reasonable going than when I can start riding again next March perhaps I won't have to suffer so much and can do the long rides I know my capability will allow.

Sound like a plan?

latitude65, Saddle design, saddle height, saddle tilt, fore/ aft placement and your positioning on the bikcycle all have a profound effect on comfort. When one is fitted for a bicycle, one thing that can't be emperically determined is what's best for your butt. This is something honed over many miles. I recently removed the aerobars from one of my primary bikes, it has the same saddle I use on my other primary bike (Flite). I'm having a p*sser of a time getting the saddle adjusted properly (aerobars require some compromise between two positions) and really the only difference between the two bikes is the seatpost.

I tried a Flite on my mountain bike... not a good match at all. A Fizik Nisene was perfect for it, but when experimenting with a road bike it was junk to my butt. Two saddles that have worked well for me (just throwing out less popular brands worth trying) are the OEM CODA from Cannondale and a Serfas Ti. The Serfas worked well with a more upright style.

As far as cycling not being your sport just because of butt comfort... I've a friend who's ridden a minimum of 10K miles a year for perhaps 30 years and he's always on the hunt for the perfect saddle.

Brad

PS I forgot about cycling shorts, oops. In order of my preference, PI, Sugoi then Shaversport.

In this thread there sure a lot of complaints about saddles. As suggested by an earlier post the only real fix is a recumbent bicycle. Unfortunately anyone that wants to race is trapped by the trio of DF manuf, most bike shops, and the international cycling nazis. That trio is a huge pain in the rear.

rydabent, There are also some favorable comments about saddles and not everyone wants to ride a 'bent.

Brad

I found that having a seat post with a two-bolt adjustment to make a big difference. On my single bike I just couldn't get the tilt exactly right with the stock seat post. Bought a Thomson and I quickly found the sweet spot; still not as comfortable as the Selle An-atomica that I have on our tandem.

Went back to my LBS yesterday afternoon and swapped back to my old saddle. It was good up to 30 miles where the one I was testing went all the way to 38. Not worth the dollars for such a small improvement. Had a long discussion with a neat and knowledgable youngster there followed up by one with the owner. I came away with this:
>Trek, and maybe others, is coming out with a new line of saddles this coming year. All their current road bike saddles are designed for racing posture. As a person sits longer time periods or sits in a more upright posture there is more discomfort and for some there is never any comfort. The new line will be designed for various riding postures from racing to nearly upright.
>Thick chamois, like my Sugoi's, can actually cause chafing. Y'all may have known that but I sure didn't.
>While on the internet butt soreness is butt soreness in real life there is a real difference between kinds or soreness. It is important to figure out which kind it is to know what direction to go in finding a solution.

The big piece of information I didn't know was that road bike saddles are not designed for people like me and therefore it is inevitable I will be uncomfortable. Knowing that I can minimize the discomfort until I see the new saddles. He also gave me some tips on how to make it through the winter and not have to start all over again next season.

Time well spent.

With respect to saddle time, 1500 miles is minimal. There is a lot of adaptation for a bike to be comfortable and it is not just the saddle. The sit bones are covered with muscle, fat, skin and etc and over time adapt to the pressure of sitting on the saddle. Blood flow to the skin, supporting tissue and nerves is essential. It should not be surprising to anyone that human adaptation takes time and effort. I am a golfer and playing in a 72 hole 4 day tournament with warmup, practice putting and the like takes its toll. Playing a 5 set tennis match with long points is tough on many parts of the body. Sitting on a bike is tough as well and requires adaptation.

I probably have 25,000 miles in the last few years after restarting my cycling and quite frankly I am now at a point where my saddle feels good. I think the biggest difference for me was how I sat on the saddle (square) versus off to one side and staying on top of the pedals. If you keep a light touch on the handle bars and steer with your core and squeeze you butt cheeks together, the underlying muscles support the sit bones better and being on top of the pedals with power unweights the butt. However, that technique takes practice and a lot of time and pedal revolutions to learn.

I hope Trek comes out with the "ultimate" saddle but I am dubious that anything but saddle time and proper technique will improve our collective situation. Much like tennis, hitting balls hour after hour makes one a good tennis player once your hands, elbow and back can take the punishment.

With respect to rbents, I think one rides a rbent because one likes to ride a rbent and get the other benefits that come from that technology.

Nothing much to add here, except to add to Hermes' last post, that comfort comes with time on a bike. And (my words, not his) that thereby comfort is relative to the discomfort of earlier rides.

I moved my previous 'fast saddle' to my older touring bike. I don't even notice it, on all day rides. I lent my bike to a friend who hadn't ridden much. He found it tear-inducingly awful, and was not at all persuaded by my assurance that it was the chesterfield of saddles!

I bought a wonderful bike, out of my league fast, blimey, 3 years ago already. Its San Marco race saddle seemed a little insolent and intransigent for a year. It just wanted me to toughen up, stop being so needy and to stand up for myself (!)

I found that I normally don't have saddle problems after the height and tilt are dialed in. I can do a fifty miler without problems. One day I readjusted the tilt on my bike (nose up) because I had read that I may be putting too much weight on my hands. Well this slight change caused incredible pain and I couldn't ride more than 6 miles and it left a sore that lasted for days. I changed the tilt back and feel no pain.

Shorts - I use Assos and Gore bike wear bibs very comfortable. I used to use castelli, PI's and Desente but the Assos and Gore feel much better. Assos is really pricy but your butt will thank you.

Also I have been riding regularly for 30 years, I think it just takes time to harden your rear.

In the research I've done, there are only three saddle makers that have unique approaches:

A. Selle An-atomica, with their adjustment mechanism that tries to find your sweet spots.

B. Adamo, which extends the cutout all the way to and through the front of the saddle, essentially lopping off the front of the saddle.

C. Cobb, which is a truly weird looking saddle that encourages a forward pelvic tilt.

I think the others are variations one on theme or another. Sort through enough and you find one that works. Or not.

It's really difficult for many of us to tell whether we need to just HTFU and get used to our saddles, or whether there is some inherent incompatability. Especially since the saddle position is a big part of dialing in the overall fit, which takes time to sort out. I have about 1,500 miles on the saddle I've been using, gradually dialing it in as I've dialed in the bike fit. I can handle the mild butt soreness, but have struggled with numbness 'up-front'. Getting bibs helped, as has turning the saddle very very slightly to one side, and going OTS more. I'm considering trying one of the three unique approaches (probably the Adamo) to see how well it works.

Seats. There will never be an end to saddle threads, because it is an area that just gives so many of us fits.

With due respect to those of you who have been riding road bikes for years and advocate just giving it lots and lots, years and years of time: I don't have that time. If it takes 25,000 miles to find and get comfortable in a road bike saddle it will never happen in my lifetime unless I set new records for longevity. That just isn't an acceptable situation. (By the way most tell me 1500 miles in 5 months on top of my overwinter trainer/spinning time is plenty to get a good idea)

what I think as a result of talking face to face with people and blending with this thread is that the culture of road biking has downplayed rider comfort over the years. In fact the very definition of the word "comfort" is different in the road bike culture than in common use. In road bike culture that has meant no pain more than a person can tolerate. Of course pain tolerance varies in much the same way body type and other physcial characteristics vary.

I have met several people who are puzzled by the very mention that someone would be bothered by pain. "Oh, I just ride anyway"; "I'm standing so much when I ride (race) the saddle isn't a factor"; "Oh, twenty years ago that was a problem but not in the last few." give the flavor of some comments. I suspect that Hermes would fall in this group somewhere.

Now, there are many of us who are starting riding these things called Road Bikes and who are later in life. We aren't willing, nor do we have the life time remaining to spend years sorting things out and building pain tolerance. At the same time we want to ride and are willing to spend our money in reasonable amounts to do so. That is a marketing impetus that, I believe, is just now being seriously addressed.

I enjoy the rides, up to the pain time. I'm not ready to give up quite yet. But, over my life I've had enough pain and discomfort that I had no control over. Some was good in that it reminded me I was still alive and functioning. Some was bad in that it told me I needed to do something before things got truly worse. Some told me I needed to change my ways or my kit. Some told me it was time to move on to something that was fun.

Right now I'm trying to sort the kit.

What are your goals in cycling?

Centuries and long-distance riding? Recreational riding of 30 - 40 miles just to enjoy it?

Seems to me this is an a priori question, given that you CAN ride 30-40 miles wihout much discomfort - as I recall in your previous posts.

FYI, it took me about a year to get everything "broken in." However, I am - as you well know - riding no more than about 40 mile rides, and I ride slowly, easily, comfortably taking rests when I want, etc. Racing, pace lines, seeing who can lead the pack, bridging are not even in my vocabulary, nor do I have the slightest interest. Rather, like today, I started my day with resistance training and I ended my ride with a nice swim, and all-round conditioning is one of my goals.

Just some thoughts.

Does bicycling that you can do comfortably fit into your overall goals?

I think you may be misinterpreting some of our comments or maybe you are being impatient with something that may require more patience. If you are experiencing excruciating pain, something is wrong and needs to be fixed immediately. If you have some discomfort or mild pain the first few times you expand your distance or time on the bike, I'd say that is normal.

As has been said, part of what has to happen is your body adapting. Another part is adjusting various aspects of the bike to the point that it works well for you. Yet another part is finding a saddle and shorts that works well for you. Some people need more time to adapt, some less. Some get to the right adjustments quickly, some don't find it for a while.

Part of it is analytical, part of it is dumb luck. You may be one ride away from everything falling into place. It may take some time. You may not ever get there. No one knows.

It took me a short time to get fairly comfortable on a bike. I was able to withstand some discomfort on long rides because I have a high tolerance for pain and discomfort if there is enough pleasure and enjoyment to offset. But after a few years of steady riding, I adapted, made adjustments and bought better gear to the point that I started feeling more and more comfortable on the bike. Now I only hurt during the first few long rides after I have been off the bike for too long. I usually feel great on the bike - at least until a car hits me. That hurts.

Latitude65, I looked for this earlier, it's one of the 'gear breaks' during the TdF coverage that, if anything demonstrates different saddle designs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XwksOWPWfg

Brad

What are your goals in cycling?

Centuries and long-distance riding? Recreational riding of 30 - 40 miles just to enjoy it?

Seems to me this is an a priori question, given that you CAN ride 30-40 miles wihout much discomfort - as I recall in your previous posts.

FYI, it took me about a year to get everything "broken in." However, I am - as you well know - riding no more than about 40 mile rides, and I ride slowly, easily, comfortably taking rests when I want, etc. Racing, pace lines, seeing who can lead the pack, bridging are not even in my vocabulary, nor do I have the slightest interest. Rather, like today, I started my day with resistance training and I ended my ride with a nice swim, and all-round conditioning is one of my goals.

Just some thoughts.

Does bicycling that you can do comfortably fit into your overall goals?

You make a great point in that riders have to make choices. If you want to ride 60 miles + and your butt is the limiter then, IMO, one has to adjust the equipment and mostly adapt. However, one can have a lot of fun and achieve excellent fitness with 30 mile rides 3 times a week with a couple of breaks. And every rider is different and manages their situation. I did the saddle swap thing and tried most everything. I needed better technique and more saddle time.

IMO, technology has not saved athletes from doing what they had to do to achieve success as they define it in any sport. One can play tennis by playing doubles with your buddies and not have to hit many balls or run very much. If you want to play singles in tournaments, you need to be able to smack the ball a lot for a long time and run a lot. All sports allow athletes to participate as they see fit within their goals, ability, limitations and time constraints.

I've done 2 rides over the past couple weekends-each over 100 miles-and had 5 hours and almost 7 hours of saddle time on each day. I never really thought about the saddle the whole time. Sure, I'd stand up occassionally to use different leg muscles but I could have just as easily sat and spun for the whole time. On the 5 hour ride I only had a 2 minute stop to grab some fluids. Something's just not right Latitude and like others I'm skeptical that a Trek is the fix. I have a hard time believing Trek will be doing anything that much different that others have already tried.

I do agree that too much padding in shorts can be a bad thing. I'm wondering if you might need a much wider saddle than normal. It sounds like you just need to keep experimenting. Good luck. I know it has to be aggravating.

I've done 2 rides over the past couple weekends-each over 100 miles-and had 5 hours and almost 7 hours of saddle time on each day. I never really thought about the saddle the whole time. Sure, I'd stand up occassionally to use different leg muscles but I could have just as easily sat and spun for the whole time. On the 5 hour ride I only had a 2 minute stop to grab some fluids. Something's just not right Latitude and like others I'm skeptical that a Trek is the fix. I have a hard time believing Trek will be doing anything that much different that others have already tried.

I do agree that too much padding in shorts can be a bad thing. I'm wondering if you might need a much wider saddle than normal. It sounds like you just need to keep experimenting. Good luck. I know it has to be aggravating.

With your speed, power and experience, you will unweight your butt slightly with each pedal stroke. You do not just sit relaxed on saddle for 100+ miles. You are killing it the entire time. So as long as you have that kind of leg strength and endurance, the saddle, assuming it is of reasonable quality, becomes less of an issue.

Something I discovered last year when I was having the worst of my problems: you gotta let irritation subside before you can make a decision about what change is helping or hurting. That may take longer than you think. In my case it would feel OK when I first got on the bike, but pain would occur later, usually after a sit-down and drink gatorade rest. Also, everyone always seems to talk about 'sit bones'. My problems do not occur there, rather in the scrotal area or slightly behind. Perhaps it's an indelicate subject to talk about in a mixed forum, but otherwise communication is inefficient. I had my sit bones measured, but still ride a saddle that is considerably narrower. I do like a skinny 'neck' that doesn't bruise my thigh tendon cords when I pump hard.

I had problems at first and simply did not buy into the argument that I had to ride thousands of miles in pain before my saddle would get comfy. I ended up with a Selle Anatomica (clydesdale) and it now has about 7500 miles on it. Visit their website and check out their videos. I have since had about seven buddies buy SA's after they saw how comfy mine was.

Caveat; it DOES take a bit of tweaking to get it just perfect, but right away it will be better than most.

I've been thinking about putting a tractor seat on my bike.

I had problems at first and simply did not buy into the argument that I had to ride thousands of miles in pain before my saddle would get comfy.

Who makes that argument?

With due respect to those of you who have been riding road bikes for years and advocate just giving it lots and lots, years and years of time: I don't have that time. If it takes 25,000 miles to find and get comfortable in a road bike saddle it will never happen in my lifetime unless I set new records for longevity. That just isn't an acceptable situation.

You prolly weren't happy with my earlier post/reply, but it still stands. Seems to me you haven't defined what all is contributing to the saddle issue.


what I think as a result of talking face to face with people and blending with this thread is that the culture of road biking has downplayed rider comfort over the years. In fact the very definition of the word "comfort" is different in the road bike culture than in common use. In road bike culture that has meant no pain more than a person can tolerate. Of course pain tolerance varies in much the same way body type and other physcial characteristics vary.

that might be your impression, but that certainly is not the case. Cycling, even for the casual rider, has a large component of 'getting the most out of the motor' (aside from the flower and landscape gawkin and other great things...). There has always been a serious ongoing development for 'getting the best out of the motor', that has comfort as a HUGE parameter. Some shortterm performance events might allow the tradeoff of comfort, but most longer riding, whether competitive or not, aims to increase comfort to increase motor performance.
There are millions of us out there who are 'comfortable' on our bikes for very long periods.



I have met several people who are puzzled by the very mention that someone would be bothered by pain. "Oh, I just ride anyway"; "I'm standing so much when I ride (race) the saddle isn't a factor"; "Oh, twenty years ago that was a problem but not in the last few." give the flavor of some comments. I suspect that Hermes would fall in this group somewhere.

I think you've completely mis-read what Hermes had said.
I won't re-interpret what he's said, I grok it. If he thinks it needs restating, he'll do that.


Now, there are many of us who are starting riding these things called Road Bikes and who are later in life. We aren't willing, nor do we have the life time remaining to spend years sorting things out and building pain tolerance. At the same time we want to ride and are willing to spend our money in reasonable amounts to do so. That is a marketing impetus that, I believe, is just now being seriously addressed.

It's not about marketing...
If you don;t think that saddle makers and many others are burning huge amounts of gray matter trying to come up with 'THE' great saddle idea, then you're wrong.
The machine in a large degree, defines the elements. If the general machine seems a problem, then there's options - try a bent...
Otherwise, having the machine between your legs defines the 'support' a rider needs.

good marketing ultimately does help products reach some level of acceptance, as relates to saddles, I've seen a bunch of 'different' designs, tried a few myself because I'm curious and always interested in the advancement of ridin the bike. Nothing I've found which would take me away from my accepted saddles of the oldestyle/current style idiom.


I enjoy the rides, up to the pain time. I'm not ready to give up quite yet. But, over my life I've had enough pain and discomfort that I had no control over. Some was good in that it reminded me I was still alive and functioning. Some was bad in that it told me I needed to do something before things got truly worse. Some told me I needed to change my ways or my kit. Some told me it was time to move on to something that was fun.
Right now I'm trying to sort the kit.

Even though you might think I was being 'spiteful', in fact I still believe you haven't defined the 'issues'.
You have 3 places (actually 5 if you count both arms/hands, legs/feet as separate) where you are supported. All 3-5 places are interconnected/intertwined in relationship.
Have you gone to someone to work with you on 'position' for yourself?
'Position' is not just the application of recommendations/rules/guidelines for putting a rider on a bike, but it is 'importantly, the 'customization' of how any rider fits on their machine.
Your optimum position (for your current body) may be quite different than what general guidelines recommend. Only an experienced person who understands 'fitting' can help with that.
What I'm sayin, just because a LBS/shop has a 'Fit' system, doesn't mean that anyone there has the experience to position someone with real issues. That comes from years of experience and work with other riders.
Trial and error of saddle testing is frustrating, costly , and for some of us, very lengthy until we got somewhere.
Until you actually approach this systematically, with knowledgeable help, it'll be hit or miss.
You may 'hit' quickly or you may have to spin this very large roulette wheel often and for a long time.

IMO

This thread was started in an attempt to put some structure into my search for a saddle that works for me and because I had hopes it would be different than other threads on this subject. Neither this Thread, nor this Forum are the only places this analytical person has gone to obtain input to my process. I've gone to very experienced riders and bike industry folks who know what they are doing as well as people who are just ahead of me in the learning curve and many in between.

At this point the evidence tells me that that finding a saddle that works for an individual is, in fact, a matter of chance. Some people find a saddle quickly and some don't. My limited cycling season complicates the search and may, in the end, result in severely modifying what I do in cycling. Such is the nature of life.

Do I have enough experience to make a saddle decision, or must I wait for many more thousand miles/hours? In answering that question I've borrowed a technique from statistical analysis. Althought this problem is certainly not a satistical one, the technique of smoothing is certainly useful here. In that smoothing I've thrown out those inputs that significantly deviate from the norm. With that done testimony is that I am riding intensely enough and have ridden long enough to be a good judge of whether the problem is me or the saddle.

One poster mentioned there will be no end to saddle questions and threads because it is such a universal trouble area. I think that is probably close to the facts. However, Fizik saddles and the line that Trek is apparently bringing out give hope that there is an increasingly better understanding of how common people ride and what saddle designs match that reality.

Onward to the future....

Latitude65,
I think that by and large, your last post is on mark. Getting comfortable on a bike, something that includes saddle comfort and many other things, is something that creates problems for pretty much everyone at some time or another. How big a problem and how long and how often it occurs varies greatly from person to person.
To what extent the new saddle technology touted by Fizik and Trek will help and to what extent it is marketing hype is anybody's guess. I suspect they will find solutions for some and not for others.
Wherever you find your solution, I hope it comes reasonably soon and that it truly makes riding comfortable for you. I know it can happen. It happened for me the first time I rode on a Brooks B17. :innocent:

Latitude65, In another attempt to throw out designs that may work for you... http://www.serfas.com/products.asp?CatID=1 .

Serfas' web site gives a good example of the various shapes and what Serfas thinks each design is best suited for all on one page. I recently mounted my other old Serfas dual density on an old C'Dale I'm doing a mini rebuild with. Waiting on parts for that bike so no feedback, but the same saddle works very well on my old Raleigh, which is a slightly more upright WRT seating position than my other road bikes.

Brad

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Latitude65, In another attempt to throw out designs that may work for you... http://www.serfas.com/products.asp?CatID=1 .

Serfas' web site gives a good example of the various shapes and what Serfas thinks each design is best suited for all on one page. I recently mounted my other old Serfas dual density on an old C'Dale I'm doing a mini rebuild with. Waiting on parts for that bike so no feedback, but the same saddle works very well on my old Raleigh, which is a slightly more upright WRT seating position than my other road bikes.

Brad
That's a great page to compare shapes! I now have 3 saddles, one of which came on the Specialized road bike. What I have learned so far is that I HATE fat-snouted saddles. They bruise the cords in my inner thighs when I pump hard. The shape of the sliver-like SLR seems to agree with me, but I THINK I'd like just a bit more padding on it. I bought two Selles used on EBay which seems to be a fair way to shop economically. (maybe easier to find saddles in winter time) At present I have the Flite installed (with 2 bib shorts and Chamois Butt'r while I heal a sore place).
BTW, I think this discussion should have included the position the poster rides in (road bike drop bars, hybrid etc) I ride a road bike, seldom use the drops, saddle is adjusted to slant 'down' one notch.

Allow me to Latitude's email string on saddles. I have no answers just more questions..?? Have you had your prostate checked??

I also am in a new search of the right saddle. I had a radical prostatectomy 4 months ago. This brings a new level of meaning to soreness.. I got back on the bike and suffered pretty severe pain and swelling. My urologist, who has done thousands of these procedures says don't ride a bike . Why, you ask?? because first overall they are not good for the prostate. Second, if you have had your prostate removed and ride your bike you wiull be irritaing scar tissue as opposed to regular tissue , create inflamation that can lead to nerve damage or limit nerve regeneration.. Nerve regeneration is key to recovery of sexual function.
Anybody found a seat that copnsiders this issue?? There are dozens out there but all seem to be more recreational in nature