Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Biking is good for the knees right?

So, I've always heard and strongly agree that biking is really good exercise for your knees. It's low impact usually and your knees are in constant motion, working hard (which is also called exercise, commonly accepted as a good thing).

I've seen some posts on this forum mentioning how things like hills or applying backward pressure on a fixie is bad for your knees.

I think this is total B.S. I think that 90% of biking is really good for your knees. My guess is that fixie skid-stops and technical mountain biking without suspension aren't too good for your knees. But the majority of riding is great for them.

What does everyone think? Is biking bad for your knees?

Riding in general yes, if you have a correct fit. Fixed gear riding, not at all. Wait til' these kids are down the road they're going to be having knee problems for sure.

i agree about yes, with correct fit.

also, gearing is another consideration.
Higher gears and mashing, especially with SSFG and start up/accelerating, means more force on the knee, which isn't very good for it.
Lower gears are much better for the knee, promote elasticity.

spinning = good
mashing = not so good

or so i gather.

gradual back pressure to gradually slow down on a low geared FG isn't so bad and probably good because it is working opposite leg muscles, but harder back pressure on a high gear and the sudden and explosive backwards force needed to skid stop are probably not so good.


i have had a series of knee injuries from playing soccer a huge chunk of my life, have had meniscus surgery, and cycling is great physical therapy as long as you focus more on spinning and ride lower gears and keep the skid stopping to a minimum.

Riding in general yes, if you have a correct fit. Fixed gear riding, not at all. Wait til' these kids are down the road they're going to be having knee problems for sure.

you got it, doc.

Riding in general yes, if you have a correct fit. Fixed gear riding, not at all. Wait til' these kids are down the road they're going to be having knee problems for sure.

are you saying fixed gear riding is not at all good for the knees or "not at all" in reply to Op saying "fixie is bad for your knees." ?

I'm 40. 81 gear inches. Obsessive about fit. My knees are in better shape than when I was 26. I do fixed centuries no problem.

Spin. Watch saddle height.

I'm 40. 81 gear inches. Obsessive about fit. My knees are in better shape than when I was 26. I do fixed centuries no problem.

Spin. Watch saddle height.

do you use back and/or front brake to stop? i assume no skidding? use back pressure to gradually stop? ie. street riding FG....
would you say higher or lower saddle height being detrimental to the knee?

just curious for my own knee health.

I ride brakeless yes. Not much of a skidder, it's smart to just plan my deceleration. If something unplanned occurs in front of me I can skid with ease but I still wouldn't "skid". Skidding is not the fastest way to stop.

My rides take me over a couple bridges every day and the descent works muscles that keeps my knees happy.

Saddle height chart:

- saddle
- knee pain
-
- perfect height for saddle
-
-
-
-
-
- too low, knee pain
- seat post clamp

Perfect saddle height is a bit variable but you get the optimum JUST before it is the worst. i have a 32" inseam and my BB spindle to saddle height is just a hair over 75.2cm. I need to dial it down maybe 3 or 4mm since building the new bike. Literally, saddle perfection is a matter of millimetres.

I think eating peanut butter is dangerous, because you can get salmonella.

I'm 39. Riding fixed (77.6 gear inches, brakes) daily about 100km per week. My commute involve 3 climbing hills with 5% and 7% grades. Have knee problems, quit running about 2y ago. Still, after serious hike or ski tour trip I barely can walk, but never have problem riding. I have a road bike as well and do not see any difference between geared and fixed in terms of knee problems.

As mentioned, if you ride with your saddle too low it will hurt your knees. If you ride with it too high it'll probably be uncomfortable and you'll lower it. Pedaling in too high of a gear is also bad. Spinning is good.

I ride brakeless yes. Not much of a skidder, it's smart to just plan my deceleration. If something unplanned occurs in front of me I can skid with ease but I still wouldn't "skid". Skidding is not the fastest way to stop.

My rides take me over a couple bridges every day and the descent works muscles that keeps my knees happy.

Saddle height chart:

- saddle
- knee pain
-
- perfect height for saddle
-
-
-
-
-
- too low, knee pain
- seat post clamp

Perfect saddle height is a bit variable but you get the optimum JUST before it is the worst. i have a 32" inseam and my BB spindle to saddle height is just a hair over 75.2cm. I need to dial it down maybe 3 or 4mm since building the new bike. Literally, saddle perfection is a matter of millimetres.

I agree with this. I am not 40, but I did notice when building my new bike that my saddle height was too low. I was having some pain in my knees but I thought it was something else. adjusted the saddle height and now I am feeling a lot better! It seems much more comfortable. I ride 82.7 gear inches

I think eating peanut butter is dangerous, because you can get salmonella.

I eat a tablespoon a day and I'm still alive. I'm interested in your secret to longevity...

All I know is that knees are good for cycling.

I think this.


All I know is that knees are good for cycling.

I eat a tablespoon a day and I'm still alive. I'm interested in your secret to longevity...

I dunno. Probably a combination of good luck and avoiding steroid fed beef. But seriously, both my parents died in their early 50's, my dad from a heart attack and my mom from cancer (she smoked about 3 packs of cigs a day), so I've always been determined to avoid that fate if at all possible. I believe that you are what you eat and that humans were not meant to eat a lot of red meat. I've been cycling for health for about 40 years and the competition is just a motivator to get out and ride a lot. Oh, and just to get back on topic, my knees are great, despite riding and racing fixed for over 30 years. That includes backpedalling to slow down and stop on the road and doing full power standing starts on the track in 90+ gi. I think most knee injuries are due to bad form and not building up your knee strength with gym work.

I'm 39. Riding fixed (77.6 gear inches, brakes) daily about 100km per week. My commute involve 3 climbing hills with 5% and 7% grades. Have knee problems, quit running about 2y ago. Still, after serious hike or ski tour trip I barely can walk, but never have problem riding. I have a road bike as well and do not see any difference between geared and fixed in terms of knee problems.
Hey, you're from FixedVan as well.

I agree with the Doc, good saddle height will avoid knee pains...

Since we are kind of on topic, do many of you use the "knee over pedal spindle" to determine aft/fore position?

pretty much the only thing that has hurt my knees while riding ,besides tall gearing and bad fit, is actively trying to stop the bike with my legs. My knees have always been bad and riding has been really nice to them. I'm sure riding, my road bike at the time, helped my knee after I was hit by a car, I could hardly walk but I could ride just fine.

Since we are kind of on topic, do many of you use the "knee over pedal spindle" to determine aft/fore position?

It's a good place to start, but varies depending on the type of riding I do. When racing sprints on the track my saddle is farther forward and it's easier to spin high rpms that way. For climbing seated on the road at a lower cadence, I like my saddle farther back so I'm pedalling more recumbent style.

My femurs are relatively short, I couldn't get my knee over the spindle without putting myself in front of the bottom bracket. I read the Peter White's fitting method and said it was okay...is it okay?

It's a good place to start, but varies depending on the type of riding I do. When racing sprints on the track my saddle is farther forward and it's easier to spin high rpms that way. For climbing seated on the road at a lower cadence, I like my saddle farther back so I'm pedalling more recumbent style.

Just wandering, how much your saddle travels between those two positions?

My femurs are relatively short, I couldn't get my knee over the spindle without putting myself in front of the bottom bracket. I read the Peter White's fitting method and said it was okay...is it okay?

Everyone is a little different and there are other factors such as crank arm length that affect saddle location. The knee plumb bob to pedal spindle is a good starting point, but it's not something written in stone. I really don't think you need to sweat this any more than any other position parameters. Like others have said, saddle height is a lot more important, and I have all my bikes set up within millimeters of each other in this regard.

Just wandering, how much your saddle travels between those two positions?

Well, the saddles and seatposts are somewhat different, so it's difficult to say precisely, but I'd estimate somewhere between 1 and 2 inches.

I..... have had meniscus surgery, and cycling is great physical therapy

I'm in the same boat. I've had a couple surgeries for meniscus tears and cysts. For a good part of my life walking was an issue. Biking daily has all but fixed that for me. If riding fixed bombs my knees when I hit 40 at least I got my 20's back because I had thought I was done.

I'm 55, ride 46x17x700c (70.7 gear inches) x165mm cranks and find my knees in great shape.

N.B. not too many hills around here, though.

It would seem as though provided correct fit and form (which a lot of fixed gear riders may not have), biking should be good for the knees.

I think most knee injuries are due to bad form and not building up your knee strength with gym work.

What kind of specific gym work for the knees/legs?

Track forum have a thread on this, pretty useful.


http://getbuffblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/squat.jpg



Most knee problems for street fixed gear riders comes from a mixture of:
- skidding
- braking
- not properly warming up
- poor bike fit
- lack of strength training

I believe that you are what you eat and that humans were not meant to eat a lot of red meat.
Thats nonsense....if you are of Asian or European ancestry, your ancestors ate mostly reindeer for about 60,000 years, until the end of the last ice age. Red meat isn't the problem...the problem is hormone injected, grain stuffed fatty beef and pork, which are biochemically quite different from wild animals.

People who develop knee problems from cycling either had messed up knees to begin with or aren't doing it right.

Hope I switched to biking , just in time.. Cause running almost tore up my right knee. Before I gave up running , I was running with a brace over my knee. Then , I switched to cycling and never looked back. Cycling is so much more fun anyway.. now, I fear my former running days might jeopardize my cycling, since my knee has never felt the same as a result of running.. .
. Sometimes, my right knee feels a little stuff and painful.. I think cycling is good for my knee, because sometime after riding it feels a bit more limber.

I damaged my knee in a ladder mishap in '78 and had years of sporadic pain and stiffness, usually down to my ankle. In '02 I rode a bike to work, maybe 45 kms a week for four months. The knee/leg pain pretty much vanished. I started riding again in Apr '09, and my gear inches between my two bikes varies from 65 to 70. No knee pain at all. I should have listened to my doc back in '80 when he suggested exercise in the form of leg lifts...

What kind of specific gym work for the knees/legs?

bosu ball squats are great.

(those half balls you can stand on)
while squats are good, standing on the bosu ball when doing them makes you stabilize yourself during the whole exercise so the constant twitching and stabilizing correction works lots of different muscles at the same time.

pretty much bosu ball any leg workout is good. most gyms have them.

Thats nonsense....if you are of Asian or European ancestry, your ancestors ate mostly reindeer for about 60,000 years, until the end of the last ice age. Red meat isn't the problem...the problem is hormone injected, grain stuffed fatty beef and pork, which are biochemically quite different from wild animals.

People who develop knee problems from cycling either had messed up knees to begin with or aren't doing it right.

i would think they were not eating the massive amounts of red meat we eat nowadays....or just meat in general. i mean, back then eating meat meant having to hunt/trap your meat, or going out and slaughtering Bessie or Porkie (which would be relatively expensive animals to slaughter if you are some measly farmer or peasant or whatever), instead of simply going to the supermarket to buy it....or get it in fast food form. so i would assume 60,000 years ago or a few thousand years sooner, humans were definitely not consuming nearly as much meat as we do now. im sure once they made a kill they had to make the animal last and supplemented the meat with ALLOT of vegetables.

i definitely do agree about your second meat statement though

kinda OT; but are there any knee exercises that one can do at home. I dont do gyms.

i would think they were not eating the massive amounts of red meat we eat nowadays....or just meat in general. i mean, back then eating meat meant having to hunt/trap your meat, or going out and slaughtering Bessie or Porkie (which would be relatively expensive animals to slaughter if you are some measly farmer or peasant or whatever), instead of simply going to the supermarket to buy it....or get it in fast food form. so i would assume 60,000 years ago or a few thousand years sooner, humans were definitely not consuming nearly as much meat as we do now. im sure once they made a kill they had to make the animal last and supplemented the meat with ALLOT of vegetables.

i definitely do agree about your second meat statement though

Humans who lived above the tree line certainly did. There were no plants to eat. Read "Lost In The Barrens" by Farley Mowat and you'll understand a meat based diet quickly. Look at your front teeth. See the incisors? Were are designed to eat meat. It's just up to you to decide how much or how little. I eat fish almost every second day. I have a little peanut butter every day and eat two boiled eggs a day.

Red meat tastes awesome but I just don't seek it out.

kinda OT; but are there any knee exercises that one can do at home. I dont do gyms.

Load up your back pack. Not too much. Lay down and do a push up, once up, quickly stand up and jump up, go back down to the floor. Repeat a bazillion times until you are ready to puke. Backpack is optional. Pushups can be ditched one the arms go rubbery. Keep squatting and jumping until you can't.

Humans who lived above the tree line certainly did. There were no plants to eat. Read "Lost In The Barrens" by Farley Mowat and you'll understand a meat based diet quickly. Look at your front teeth. See the incisors? Were are designed to eat meat. It's just up to you to decide how much or how little. I eat fish almost every second day. I have a little peanut butter every day and eat two boiled eggs a day.

Red meat tastes awesome but I just don't seek it out.

i would think a majority of humanity have not lived above treeline. certainly we have incisors to eat meat, but we also have big molars in the back to grind grains and veggies. also, our canines are not as sharp as most meat-only animals, and the rest of our teeth are not as sharp as theirs in general. also...."In primates, canines function as both defense weapons and visual threat devices. Interestingly, the primates with the largest canines (gorillas and gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian diets." (http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm)

so i would say we are omnivores, and not solely carnivores. although possible especially in rare cases as described in that book, i personally dont think humans have evolved to be solely meat eaters....and although having the capacity to eat a meat only diet, humans tend to be healthier when meat intake is supplemented with a majority diet of veggies, fruit, and grains. i mean, our bodies just dont get all the nutrients it needs if it were to only be fed meat.

I could live on meat alone. As long as I had enough pepper.

Hm, so how would I get fitted properly, would I have to go to a bike shop? Or are there just certain guidelines to go by?

Bust out your tailor's ruler and a pencil:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=FIT_CALCULATOR_INTRO

I could live on meat alone. As long as I had enough pepper.
oh dont get me wrong, i totally could too! (maybe a little sea salt and garlic to go with the pepper.)
i would need me vitamins though ;p

I could live on meat alone. As long as I had enough pepper.

You can basically live on red meat alone and stay healthy. I ate deer meat last winter 3 times a day for a span of several months....I lost weight, my blood pressure and cholesterol dropped, I avoided the flu for the entire winter, and slept about 2 hours less per day.

For years nutritionists have recommended eating red meats in moderation only, but it turns out they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Modern agriculture has ruined red meat. Most animals are forcefed grains before slaughter to fatten them up. Grains are the worst thing you can feed farm animals because fats from grains have an unhealthy omega 6/omega 3 fatty acid ratio. High-fat-content meats from grain-fed animals contribute to heart disease. Anything extremely low in fat or wild (even if fatty) generally has the correct balance of omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. Wild (or very lean) red meat is good for you for the same reason wild fish and fish oil is good for you. The trouble with red meat is that the good stuff is hard to find and expensive. I have a source for deer meat...otherwise I would eat very little red meat.

so how do you get stuff like fiber and vitamin C and calcium

i would think a majority of humanity have not lived above treeline.

During the last ice age Europe was basically an arctic steppe and people did live there, quite successfully for tens of thousands of years. Nearly all of their material goods including food was animal based. Have you ever spent any time on a treeless steppe?...there is basically nothing to eat but animals, especially during the long harsh winters. I've spent a lot of time in Mongolia, which is still mostly a treeless steppe. Outside of the cities vegetables are like candy...a rare treat. The entire diet is basically animal. Of course, a lot of the Mongolian diet is dairy, which differs substantially from paleolithic (preagricultural) times, where dairy would have not been an option.

milk and fruit

so how do you get stuff like fiber and vitamin C and calcium

Its a myth that you need milk to get enough calcium. The nutrients (even vitamin C) are available in the animal in the quantities you need...but you need to eat the whole animal, not just the muscle. As for fiber...I don't eat 100% meat. Normally, I'm probably more like 30-40% meat, but I have gone through periods where I was eating more like 90% meat with no ill health effects.

I have bad knees from beating the crap out of myself for four years in the Marine Corps. They were so bad a few years back that the dr. said I might need both knees replaced. Since I've started biking again my knees have felt better. I'm not saying that biking cured my knees but they just don't hurt all the time anymore.

gotta love bone marrow, eye balls, liver, brains, and what not.

I've heard that barefoot running is also good for the knees. It makes sense...our ancestors ran around unshod for hundreds of thousands of years. Barefoot running retrains your body to run in a more natural, less impactful way. I haven't tried it yet but am looking to give it a go. I used to run with shoes, but have given up several times due to overuse injuries, primarily knee pain. My knees are much stronger from cycling, but I can't help thinking that, while cycling is good for knees in general, the unnatrual two dimensional pedaling motion of cycling (especially when clipped in) doesn't maximally exercise your muscles and joints in a way they were designed for. Of course barefoot running is using your joints for exactly what they were evolved to do, thus making it the purest form of human transportation possible, which is why it appeals to me. I got into FG for the same reason...attracted to the simplicity and purity of it.

I ran barefoot a few times when I was good at running, it feels nice but be prepared for big bloody blisters. I would seek some of those minimalist running shoes because the blisters suck and the risk of stepping on something like glass isn't worth it.