What do you do when approaching cars that are stopped for a red light?

bikeforumlegs

What do you do when approaching cars that are stopped for a red light or for some other reason?

I have been meaning to start a discussion on this for some time, and I am prompted by some of the comments in the thread on right turn on red (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=67733).

I never pass non-parked cars, either on their right or their left, and I always prepare to brake when I am in the right lane and a car is stopped in the left lane to turn left.

When I come to a line of cars waiting for a light, I pull in behind the last car in line.
If I am in a straight-ahead only lane, I stay in the extreme right of the lane.
If I am in a straight and right turn lane, I take up the whole lane if I am back from the front a bit, or else I take the lane and watch for people wanting to turn right on red, in which case I shuffle over to let them turn right behind me.
If I am in a straight and/or left turn lane I take up the whole lane.

I cannot think of any reason(s) that are good enough to drive past cars waiting in line. The danger of doing this is way too high for me. Not only can you get doored, or cut off when someone decides to switch lanes, but once you are all the way at the front, now all the cars have to pass you again once you all start moving again, which annoys drivers, and increases risk to me.

What do the Gospels of John say on this topic (I haven't had a chance to read any of them yet)?

Honestly people passing waiting cars is possibly my biggest pet peeve, both as a cyclist and a driver. I am interested in hearing thoughts from both sides of the topic.

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trekkie820

I go to the front of the line. They can pass me, therefore I can pass them.

emilymildew

I see what you mean about the fact that they all have to pass you again, which can be annoying doing that back and forth thing. However, it's my opinion that cars pass me in non-passing lanes (ie: the two of us in a single lane) because it is inconvenient for them to remain behind me. I do not feel guilty about passing cars because it is inconvenient for me to remain behind them.

Make sense? I am careful about it; I always keep my eyes open for doors and cross traffic. I just don't think I should have to wait in a long line of traffic when I don't have to, and when they all just blew past me anyway.

HereNT

I have more problems with buses - you never know how long they will be stopped. But I pass cars all the time. I like seeing the same cars at the next stoplight - I know they know that I am on the road then. Often, I move around the right turners to the front of the pack of cars, then take off before the light changes if it's clear. What worries me the most is when I'm heading towards 5 or 6 parked cars at a light, all going forward or turning left (no turn lane) and a car is coming up behind me that wants to go right. They're going to pass all of the cars in the left lane, and push me into the parked cars. I usually let them pass, give them a thumbs up as I pass them, then hit it in the 2 foot wide section between the right turning cars and the forward/left turning cars...

I'll pass anything. If it's in my way, it is passed. Especially if it is stopped. If it moves, then I'll pass something else to get around them both.

bikeforumlegs

I do not feel guilty about passing cars because it is inconvenient for me to remain behind them.

Fair enough. I guess when I try to weight the pros and cons on doing that, the only pro I can think of is convenience, while I can think of a number of cons that are all based on safety. In my opinion, safety concerns far outweigh issues of convenience.

My theory when I cycle is to never do anything unexpected to the drivers around me. If they are passing me, then can see me and avoid me. If I am coming up on them from behind, there is a VERY good chance that they don't realize I'm there, and thus may change lanes, open a door, etc...

townandcountry

It depends. If I am in a bike lane, coming up to a red light, I'll keep going until I get to the light. If I am turning left I'll get over to the turn lane and either take the whole lane or not, depending on if there are cars there or not.

H23

It depends.

I was going to say a whole bunch of other stuff but there are too many exceptions and complications. In general, the best thing to do is to be cool and not stess out drivers. Usually, if it is a long column of cars in an urban area, I will take a number and get in line, if it is just two or three cars and there is space after the intersection, I'll pass.

What is the standard John Forrester "Effective Cycling" advice in this matter?

emilymildew

In general, the best thing to do is to be cool and not stess out drivers.

Not to be a jerk, but do you mean kind of the way they try so hard not to stress out ME? Because I don't mind doing my thing and going where I need to go when I have to fight for every inch of roadspace I get.

noisebeam

Not to be a jerk, but do you mean kind of the way they try so hard not to stress out ME? Because I don't mind doing my thing and going where I need to go when I have to fight for every inch of roadspace I get.

I strongly believe that the majority of drivers are not trying to stress you out and that a good percentage even go out of their way to be courteous to cyclists. I also believe that there are well less than 5% of drivers who intentionally harrass and perhaps 20% of drivers who don't know that they are being a problem to cyclists - just unaware and don't know the right thing to do. I think the same is true for how other cars are treated by each other, frankly I get into just as much, if not more situations due to rude/dangerous drivers when I am in my car as when I am on by bicycle. Its just that we as cyclists are far more aware due to the more severe consequences of incidents.

Al

cicadashell

obviously there are multiple schools of thought here. i tend to go to the head of the line if there's space to do so. at the beginning of my commute home there is a traffic backup of at least a mile along a two-lane road, and there is no way i will "take a number" in that situation. while i agree with the idea of being cool and not stressing out other drivers, it is a balancing act and a give-and-take, as emilymildew alluded. i'm all about not being confrontational in my riding style, but at the same time i cannot be responsible for the state of mind of indivdual drivers. if someone finds it annoying to have to pass me multiple times, god help them when they are confronted with real problems like getting laid off, dying parents, children in trouble at school, et cetera.

edit: and i agree with noisebeam, that the majority of drivers are not really a problem. it's the few who cannot get over themselves that cause problems, and yes it happens just as often if not more often when i am driving a car, but the gravity of the consequences make it a bigger issue for cyclists.

twahl

I do what you do, get behind the last car in line, taking the lane. When the light turns green, I go to the right as soon as practical, including after making a left turn.

noisebeam

I ride like I am a vehicle. I never pass on the right, unless given a full lane to do so. I line up behind the other vehicles. This has worked very well and I feel by far the safest doing so.

There are some roads into intersections where a single lane widens to two wide, but lanes unmarked, in these cases if I am going straight and the cars are going right (they are lined up to the right) I pass them on the left. If I was a car I could do this too.

I did ride for a month where I didn't line up and pushed to front - I had far more close calls from right turners and squeezing and my comfort level went up considerably when cycling by following the rules of the road.

Al

jerrryhazard

It really depneds on the mood of the traffic. Usually I am a mirror of the surroundings; if the cars/drivers are being aggressive, then I have to be - if I'm passive then I'm roadkill. If the traffic/intersection pretty relaxed, I don't mind taking a place in line (MY lane) and waiting it out. but if it's getting hectic - then I'm in survivor mode and go where I have to go to get through.

BTW: I wonder if drivers get peeved when a bike takes a whole land at an intersection?

Roughstuff

kb0tnv

I just had this happen to me today. I started a new route and usually I have to wait in line at the light. I saw one *mart biker just pass me and wait in front beside a truck. I thought about going ahead and staying behind him but I don't know how fast he goes or how he rides. I figure the car behind me knows I am there and the rest of the cars in front of me have to deal with the *mart biker before me. The people behind me have to deal with me. I figure I have a better chance of dealing with both the drivers and the *mart biker better if I stay where I am. It worked and I was able to safely pass the *mart biker. He had no helmet (big surprise) but I was glad he was riding the correct direction. That is the second person this week that has done that. Maybe some are figuring it out ;0) He ended up passing me on the next hill. I am still figuring out how to deal with the new route. Plus I carry things that weigh more. When we were stopped at a light we exchaned a few smiles and he said, "nice" (referring to my bike). I heard his accent and figured he may not know much English. So I didn't mention is non-helmet wearing issue. So the short of it is... I would recommend just staying in place in normal traffice. However if there is a major backup due to an accident or construction.... I just zip ahead. I think it may make some drivers mad...but then maybe they will rethink being trapped in their "Cage".

Peace

jlin453

I ride up to the front of the line only if the lane up ahead is wide enough for the car to pass. If it's really narrow, there'd be no point in me going up to the line so I'd just wait. No point in frustrating drivers trying to pass me on a narrow lane or put myself in danger.

Baz

My strategy is this: Anything legal goes. Also, if it won't get me a ticket from the average relaxed cop (BAD: run red lights, ride on wrong side of road, etc., OK: take a half lane to the right, ride on boulevard/sidewalk, etc.), it's fair game as long as it doesn't inconvenience anybody, or make an average chilled out driver feel uncomfortable.

I.E: passing a long string of traffic on the right will likely not get me a ticket, but if there's only 1 foot clearance that might freak out a driver. I don't do it.

I.E: passing a string of traffic to a red light and then waiting in front of the traffic for green, not good 'cause then the driver in the lane I'm taking is inconvenienced.

I.E: passing a string of traffic to make a right turn, totally fine.

This seems to only fall apart in the case of beligerent drivers, who don't think bikes should be on the road, and will go out of thier way to be pricks even if you haven't inconvenienced them in any way.

My thoughts...

H23

Not to be a jerk, but do you mean kind of the way they try so hard not to stress out ME? Because I don't mind doing my thing and going where I need to go when I have to fight for every inch of roadspace I get.

I know you are being sarcastic but, yes, almost all drivers will try to be cool and not stress out cyclists. As someone said, there are drivers that simply don't know what to do and there are a number of aggressive drivers. These two groups present a risk for us--- but usually not as much a risk as our own dumb selves and poor traffic designs.

I'm from Pittsburgh originally, I know what you mean about having to fight for roadspace. However, Pittsburgh cyclists have it pretty good. There are cities that are much more diabolical.

Diggy18

up until last week I ALWAYS waited in line, in the middle of the lane, with the cars at any intersection (traffic light or stop sign, whatever), and then as I come through the intersection I edge over to the right of my lane. My passing on the right just doesn't seem safe. Nobody driving a car is going to check their right, rear area before moving.

But last week I got to an intersection with a 4pm Friday backup. I would have had to wait at least two changes of the light had I remained in line, so I said screw that and creeped up a narrow shoulder on the right, and then made a right turn.

tie

But last week I got to an intersection with a 4pm Friday backup. I would have had to wait at least two changes of the light had I remained in line, so I said screw that and creeped up a narrow shoulder on the right, and then made a right turn.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with going slowly. I don't see why people take this as a black-and-white issue.

DieselDan

Depends on the situation. If I have a bike lane, I pass 'em all. Some light I get away with passing fine, some places I can't bacause of curbs and parked cars. In the small downtown section, I ride the middle of the lane, but traffis doesn't move faster then me through there.

Chris L

Depends on the time of year. On really hot days in summer I find a shady spot -- wherever in the line that may be. Combine a Queensland summer with the slowest traffic lights in Australia and you have a recipe for death by heat exhaustion. At all other times, it depends on what I perceive the light is about to do. If I can make it to the front of the line before the light changes, I will do so. The safest place to be in the scramble that follows a Queensland Halley's comet light change is the front where there is space.

I don't buy into the ol' "they just have to pass me again" line at all. If they're really going any faster than I am (which is rare in even moderate traffic), they'll only have to pass me once and I'll never see them again. If they are continually having to re-pass me, it means I'm having to do the same thing, which means that in real terms (i.e. the time it takes to reach a destination), nobody is getting held up at all, since they're not really moving any faster than I am in anycase.

Raiyn

operator

For the people preaching the "wait in line" method. Why not just drive your car like all the other idiots on the road stuck in gridlock. Today traffic was gridlocked all the way from Major Mack down to at LEAST 401. That's 17km. This is not including the downtown portion past the 401.

You'd "take the lane" and "line up in traffic" ? GG.

Chris L

For the people preaching the "wait in line" method. Why not just drive your car like all the other idiots on the road stuck in gridlock.

I think that's the whole point here. There's only one reason that cars wait in those queues -- and that's because they can't to anything else! It's not because they don't try to barge their way to the front (they do, and if I'd had the mind this afternoon I could have taken photos of drivers doing just that), it's simply because they can't. By picking my way through the queue when I'm on my bike, I'm not behaving any differently to any other road user. The only difference is that I actually have the ability to back up my intentions, and they do not.

Prosody

Normally what I'll do is line up more or less on the center of the car in front of me, thus making my intended direction obvious to those behind me. I do leave myself "dive room" so that if I need it I have an escape route. If I'm the first one to the intersection I do essentially the same thing perhaps moving over a bit more to the left of center allowing the cars that want to turn right a clear path, but never so much that straight traffic creeps up on me. As I cross the intersection I bring myself back over to the what I call the "safe zone" which is the right third of the road (remember the law is as far right as practicable). This has served me well as I act in a manner that drivers can understand. Of course there's ALWAYS some morons but that's life.

I do the same. I figure that I need to protect myself from traffic turning right, expecially if I am first in line at the light. Were I to stay far to the right, I'd leave myself open to the right hook (left hook in some parts of the world). If the road has a good shoulder, and traffic is lined up for a good distance, I may ride the shoulder until I am closer to the light. Some roads around here have bike slots at intersections. For these, I will ride the bike slot all the way to the front because traffic has room to pass me.

bikeforumlegs

It seems like some of the pro-passing people are arguing this issue based on convenience of drivers vs convenience of cyclists, which I don't think it's irrelevant, does not seem to be acknowledging the safety issues. My concern with seeing people do this is that they so often put themselves at such risk of being busted open.

That being said, someone else pointed out that this is not black and white in terms of how the passing is done. I would certainly agree that passing a line of cars at low speed with hands on both brakes while scanning for unexpected doors/lane changes is not particularly dangerous, while passing a line of cars at full speed with 2 feet between the curb and the cars is extremely foolish. So certainly there is some leeway in terms of safey issues.

I don't buy into the ol' "they just have to pass me again" line at all ... they'll only have to pass me once and I'll never see them again
My point on this was not based solely on driver convenience. Being passed by cars obviously entails some small measure of risk (I certainly grant that is awfully small, otherwise we'd all be dead by now), in particular through/near intersections.

Since my point is not being where people don't know you are, I would think that if you are going to pass the line of cars, that once you reach the front of the cars that stopping behind the front car but in front of the second car would be safer, as you can safely be in front/visible to that car without pulling out past the front of the line, or worrying about the front car turning right in front without warning as the second car is obviously blocked in.

Also, the amount of clearance between the cars and the curb (or lack thereof)would make a big difference as well.

Diggy18

My point on this was not based solely on driver convenience. Being passed by cars obviously entails some small measure of risk (I certainly grant that is awfully small, otherwise we'd all be dead by now), in particular through/near intersections.

I think that's a good point about the same drivers needing to pass you again. Especially if it's a road with narrow or non-existant shoulders, in which case passing a cyclist can be frustrating and even a little dangerous since it might necessitate crossing the yellow line. I know I've experienced this frustration (while driving) with having to repeatedly pass the same bus.

elbows

I usually won't pass moving cars. But if the cars are stopped, I go to the front of the line, and take the lane ahead of the first car (usually in the cross walk). If the light turns as I'm passing, I try to sneak into the lane before the cars around me get moving. If there's no room for that, I pick a car and ride through the intersection just ahead of his front bumper -- where he can see me, and I have time to react if the car ahead of me turns.

If traffic is moving faster than you, cars will have to pass you whether you're at the front of the line, or in the middle somewhere, so I don't see that as an issue either way.

Chris L

My point on this was not based solely on driver convenience. Being passed by cars obviously entails some small measure of risk (I certainly grant that is awfully small, otherwise we'd all be dead by now), in particular through/near intersections.

In most urban settings, the difference it makes on the number of cars that pass you is totally negligible. If you wait at the back and sit in the gridlock for the 5-10 minutes traffic lights generally take to change in these parts, you'll just end up being passed by the cars that line up behind you eventually anyway. If I have the choice as to which cars pass me, I prefer to be passed by those that I have already shown the skill to do so safely (not every driver has this skill or judgement of the space I need, which is why I increasingly find myself making that judgement on their behalf).

BucketHead

I never stop directly behind a stopped car unless there's absolutley no room to get to the side. The reason? I don't want to be rear-ended by an inattentive driver coming up from behind. It's happened to me in my car before where I'd probably be dead if on my bike. On a motorcycle, you can plan an out, keep the bike in gear, and keep an eye on your rear-view... I've had to pop the clutch more than once as a car approached too fast from behind... On a bicycle, you'd not have enough time to evade...

Be safe.

Oh, and I have zero guilt passing rows and rows of mostly single occupant SUVs...

bikeforumlegs

In most urban settings, the difference it makes on the number of cars that pass you is totally negligible.

Excellent point ChrisL; my route takes me in the opposite direction of the traffic, which there is probably less of in the first place than many (most?) of you drive through. I would say that I only have a short part of my ride that counts as truly urban biking, so I am sure that I have a hard time imagining the exact circumstance of riding in gridlock.

I never stop directly behind a stopped car unless there's absolutley no room to get to the side.

I agree BucketHead. I usually stay to the right of the lane, unless everyone is going slowly, or there is a line behind me already. I have an intersection that I have to take in a left and straight lane, so I do go in the very middle for that one; if I stay to either side I end up getting cut off either by someone going straight past me as I try to go left, or by someone cutting the left hand turn past me so that I am stuck in the middle of two lanes... (hard to explain)

Oh, and I have zero guilt passing rows and rows of mostly single occupant SUVs...

hehe true. I refuse to buy into the cyclists guilt thing; it'll put you in bad situations. I hate passing rows and rows of cars however, for safety concerns.

progre-ss

If I'm coming up to a red light and I'm going straight, I'll mosey my way up to the front, depending on if there's room or not, making a note as to who's signaling to turn right. Once at the front, I'll position myself so I'm sticking out past the first car in line.

The only time I'll wait behind a car is if I'm turning left, and then when traffic starts moving and I get closer to the front I'll work my way so that I'm beside the car that's also turning left so I may turn with that car.

If the right most lane is a right turning lane ony, I'll stay in the lane that's going straight and in the right most part of that lane, beside whatever cars are going straight and again positioning myself ahead of the first car in line.

I'm beginning to have second thoughts about waiting behind a car...don't want to end up being a hood/trunk ornament!