Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Radial vs. 1x vs. etc lacing

Whats differenece between radial laced and 1x laced wheels?

I mean I know the difference in how it looks. THATS pretty obvious. But as to the applications of each, advantages and subsequent disadvantages of each, im ignorant.

Please help. This thread came off a remark by Tejano made on the macaframa + Raleigh collab about lacing.. (AND xkillermax)

From my experience, the most noticeable differences are strength and durability. working at a shop I have seen problems with straight pull lacing.

How many spokes you are using will also be a factor. Don't necessarily need 36, but for a rider I wouldnt go super low.

Radial lacing looks cool? someone may say something about drag?

Radial lacing (no lacing) is fine for the front wheel, because there is no torque being applied at the hub that has to be transferred to the rim, unless you are using a disk brake. Torque transfer requires that the spoke have a force component tangential to the hub flange, and the more crosses that you have in the spokes, the more tangential component you will have. Also, high flange hubs will provide more tangential component for a given number of crosses, spokes and rim depth. Some fancy rear wheels are laced 2x or 3x on the right (drive) side, but radial on the left side, because most of the torque transfer occurs on the right side. All my track wheels are either 2x or 3x on both sides on the rear, but most are radial in front. Also, all my modern road racing and training wheels are radial in the front, and I've never had any problems.

From my experience, the most noticeable differences are strength and durability. working at a shop I have seen problems with straight pull lacing.?

Are you talking about radial (zero cross) lacing or straight pull type spokes (no hook)? Spokes carry all the load in tension, regardless of the lacing pattern.

What TTrackie said.

Radial laced wheels are marginally lighter and more aero. More importantly, they are laterally stiffer because the spoke is shorter and approaches the hub at a sharper angle with respect the median plane of the bicycle. The only downside to radial lacing (for the front wheel) is that it puts more tension on the hub flanges. However hub breakage almost never happens and most hubs these days are built to withstand radial lacing. The only real reason to cross spokes is to handle torque loads...there are none on the front wheel.

Don't necessarily need 36, but for a rider I wouldnt go super low.

I wouldn't radially lace a wheel with more than 32 spokes unless the hub was really beefy...all those spokes add up to a lot of tension on the flanges. Then again, almost no one really needs 36 spokes on the front. A radially laced 36 spoke wheel would probably be fine, but I would feel better with crossed spokes on a high spoke count wheel, unless of course, the hub was specifically built for it.

Are you talking about radial (zero cross) lacing or straight pull type spokes (no hook)? Spokes carry all the load in tension, regardless of the lacing pattern.

Hook type spoke with zero cross. Although some of the problems related to either the rim/hub also.

I wouldn't radially lace a wheel with more than 32 spokes unless the hub was really beefy...all those spokes add up to a lot of tension on the flanges. Then again, almost no one really needs 36 spokes on the front. A radially laced 36 spoke wheel would probably be fine, but I would feel better with crossed spokes on a high spoke count wheel, unless of course, the hub was specifically built for it.

Was talking about cross lacing.

whats your guyes opinion on lacing a single fixed phil rear hub with 32 spokes to a open pro -------> left side radial drive side 3cross. i was wondering if i notice a moving of the rim to the right when accelerating/braking.
while i write this it seems like a bad idea but seems to hold on some road wheels -> is that because the drive side spokes are steeper and les likely to move the rim sideways?

whats your guyes opinion on lacing a single fixed phil rear hub with 32 spokes to a open pro -------> left side radial drive side 3cross.

Don't do that. Road rear wheels have assymetrical spoke tensions because the wheel is dished to accomodate the cassette. The asymmetrical lacing patterns you see on some road wheels are meant to partially compensate for assymeterical tension. There is no benefit to radially lacing the left rear spokes on a FG/SS.

whats your guyes opinion on lacing a single fixed phil rear hub with 32 spokes to a open pro -------> left side radial drive side 3cross. i was wondering if i notice a moving of the rim to the right when accelerating/braking.
while i write this it seems like a bad idea but seems to hold on some road wheels -> is that because the drive side spokes are steeper and les likely to move the rim sideways?

Rim may move, but I'd be more worried about tearing off the flange, which will probably happen at the worst possible time.

http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/tune-hub-ouch.jpg

i'm convinced not to do it, thanks guys

Half-radial isn't really a good idea for torque transfer...that's like the Ford Model-T technology that was in question when all of the wheels came back to the shop half-dished...

What exactly is the appeal of radial lacing on wheels ridden on roads (as opposed to velodrome)?

whats your guyes opinion on lacing a single fixed phil rear hub with 32 spokes to a open pro ------->

use 14/15 spokes on DS and 14/17 spokes on NDS

3X both or, 3X DS and 2X NDS.

I see. Looks like im not radial lacing anything. even front wheels!

What exactly is the appeal of radial lacing on wheels ridden on roads (as opposed to velodrome)?

Easier to lace while drunk?

I think radially laced wheels look nice, I would just be afraid of popping a spoke while commuting in an urban environment everyday

I'm still riding a radial-laced mtb wheel I built in 1990. It's held up pretty well so far.

did you know that 1x on a 16h and 2x on a 32h produce the same spoke length, provided that the rim and hub have the same dimensions.

1x only works properly with some rim and hub combinations, and it's more of a functional reason than anything else. Mainly for low spoke count, small wheels or large flange and deep section rim combinations.

Half-radial isn't really a good idea for torque transfer...that's like the Ford Model-T technology that was in question when all of the wheels came back to the shop half-dished...

Mavic seems to disagree(see their CrossMax wheels,DS radial);)

I think radially laced wheels look nice, I would just be afraid of popping a spoke while commuting in an urban environment everyday

Don't be. Radial laced wheels rarely break. One picture posted on the internet of a hub failure is not equivalent to real data on the matter. It is just as easy to find pictures or other anecdotal evidence of wheel failures with cross laced patterns. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people riding around with radial laced front wheels with no problems...offroad and onroad. If radially laced wheels were demonstrably more dangerous than other kinds of wheels radially laced wheels would be much less common. As long as the hub is built to withstand the tension of radial lacing (almost all are), it is a structurally superior lacing pattern for a wheel that is not being subjected to torque loads through the hub.

I don't care what anybody says (or what the trigonometry 'tells' you,) radially laced wheels make flexy wheels. I know the trigonometry says otherwise, but every wheel I've built that's radially laced are noodly and frequently come out of true. I've built literally hundreds of wheels. 3x is all I will ever use on my own bikes.

I recently bought a wheel built by another extremely accomplished wheel builder that was radially laced. I thought it was my fork flexing causing my brakes to rub when landing on things off camber (the wheel is on a trials bike.) I re-laced the wheel last night with the same brand of db spokes 3x and the wheel no longer rubs on the brakes when loaded laterally nor does it feel like it's about to collapse.

http://zombiecombatcommand.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/zombie_by_uncherished.jpg

I don't care what anybody says (or what the trigonometry 'tells' you,) radially laced wheels make flexy wheels. I know the trigonometry says otherwise, but every wheel I've built that's radially laced are noodly and frequently come out of true. I've built literally hundreds of wheels.

Quantity doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing. If you can't build a reliable radial wheel, you're obviously doing it wrong.

I didn't say anything about reliability. You can build a radial wheel that does stay in true (that comment was comparatively speaking to a 3x wheel) but it's WEAK and flexy by comparison. I've built single wall beach cruiser wheels as temporary wheels on a brakeless street bike that flex all over the place but still stay true for weeks on end.

I guarantee you my wheels see tons more abuse than most on here. I gave a radial build a try this past couple of weeks on my front wheel (I rebuilt the wheel.) ANYTHING off camber and it flexed all over the place. Same could be said about gaps to the front wheel. It stayed true, but it was complete **** and garbage on rocks or anything not flat pavement. I thought it was my fork flexing until I recently re-laced the same 28h rim and hub 3x and it's infinitely stiffer. My brake pads no longer rub the wheel on cambered loads.

I didn't say anything about reliability. You can build a radial wheel that does stay in true (that comment was comparatively speaking to a 3x wheel) but it's WEAK and flexy by comparison.

Which isn't a reliable wheel. Am I wrong?

How is it not reliable? It's still true, still rolls, and hasn't failed; it's just not near as stiff as the 3x wheel.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/23965804.jpg

lol

I used to work at a shop that was the biggest Giant and J&B account on the east coast and I co-own a shop now. I think somebody who's been riding trials for the past decade who has to replace rims every couple of months from grinding sidewalls and is a mechanical engineering major with a math minor knows how to build wheels. Could be wrong though....

Not a fan of most of my dealings with J&B.

Cue thread derailment

Seriously, J&B can suck it.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2hp6t1y.gif

Yeah, they blow pretty bad. I really think the only reason the shop got taken care of as good as it did was because they spent so much money through them. Otherwise, every other shop has had pretty **** service warranty and otherwise.

Quantity doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing. If you can't build a reliable radial wheel, you're obviously doing it wrong.

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjVan884b72nwcBQSl39WgTs6j6CHi72XNuDaCsAmMIB-RAezprg

every wheel I've built that's radially laced are noodly and frequently come out of true.
It certainly seems like there is a common factor here. :lol:

Also, people in the two year old thread were talking regular road riding: road riding =/= trail riding!

Oh yes,
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff128/lajimi/More%20Lolcats/duh.jpg

I'm going to go ahead and assume this is a bad troll.

If it's concerned with road riding only then why is it in the single speed and fixed forum? Last I checked single speed included mountain bikes and fixed gear typically have those "fixie tricks" people who do what ever it is they do with wheels that see more than some ****ty road wheel just rolling on pavement. And last I checked, a solid/stiff wheel is a solid/stiff wheel regardless of the bike it's on.

Somebody show me the same two rim/hub combos where a radial wheel is as stiff as a crossed wheel...otherwise, this just seems to be a pissing contest. Doesn't seem like anybody has anything constructive to say...rather it's all "you're doing it wrong" from a bunch of people who seem like they are on the internet more than on their bikes.

Dude, you're barking up the wrong tree here. I'm not sure what year your time machine left you stranded in but fixed gear riding - for the most part - is just like road riding. We're riding on the same roads and many of us are doing the same kind of mileage.

No one is using a radially laced wheel for fixed gear freestyle (which has its own forum) and single speed mountain bikes very rarely get discussed here in SS/FG but when they do, nobody ever speaks of using a radial front wheel for riding trails.

The only "pissing contest" going on here is you vs the wind.

lol

I used to work at a shop that was the biggest Giant and J&B account on the east coast and I co-own a shop now. I think somebody who's been riding trials for the past decade who has to replace rims every couple of months from grinding sidewalls and is a mechanical engineering major with a math minor knows how to build wheels. Could be wrong though....
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dROF7dub0As/T1drSLkZILI/AAAAAAAABkc/BzkPssjnLA0/s1600/Neil-deGrasse-Tyson-we-got-a-badass-over-here-gif.gif

Can someone explain one cross lacing to me? If the spokes don't actually cross and touch, isn't it just radial lacing with longer spokes? Other than looks and being in a time pinch with longer spokes than needed for radial, I don't see why you'd bother with 1x.

1X lacing does have the spokes cross once.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_TI-rHYZCURc/TGPF64YeOcI/AAAAAAAAAkM/DuLLTm80aFI/Wheel%20Build%201X.jpg

Trials != Trails

http://www.quest-adventure.co.uk/images/TRIALS.jpg

VS.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Hardtail-mountain-bike.jpg

right, but they don't "cross", the spokes don't touch and aren't woven through eachother.

e:

On 1X, the spokes cross once.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2626/3729816308_bb5df5cbe5.jpg

Go figure.

edit: beat to the punch.

Ok, this helps, I had it in my head that you'd use alternating sides of the hub flange.

I had it in my head that you'd use alternating sides of the herp derp.

:lol:

Even this wheel-

http://i.imgur.com/OYwDy.jpg (http://imgur.com/OYwDy)

Sure it's 3x, but the spokes aren't even woven, I'm sure it's stronger than a radial by triangulation alone, but you've gotta be leaving something on the table not actually crossing the spokes.

That looks like an improperly built 3X wheel to these eyes.

Considering it's on a bike with crimped dropouts and a coaster brake, that would be my assumption.

I see this a lot on ****tier bikes that come in the coop. Guess they're just built wrong. whodathunkit?

E: penny farthings are nuts-

http://i.imgur.com/EiGBZ.png

Part of the point of the crosses is that they decrease the angle between the spoke and the tangent of the hub and therefore get less lateral stress. I believe that in 4x the spokes are actually on the tangent and are basically as strong as you can get pattern-wise. It isn't just that the spokes touching improves the strength.

What's up with all the zombie threads today?

Part of the point of the crosses is that they decrease the angle between the spoke and the tangent of the hub and therefore get less lateral stress. I believe that in 4x the spokes are actually on the tangent and are basically as strong as you can get pattern-wise. It isn't just that the spokes touching improves the strength.

There's more than the cross for sure, but the node created by the cross creates a solid spot and an effectively [somewhat] larger flange and shorter spoke. See also: tied and soldered spokes.

On that [5x] penny farthing wheel, there's another cross out of the frame, I doubt you'd have enough wheel to pull off 5x on a normal diameter, so there probably is something to the 4x upper limit.

There's more than the cross for sure, but the node created by the cross creates a solid spot and an effectively [somewhat] larger flange and shorter spoke. See also: tied and soldered spokes.

On that [5x] penny farthing wheel, there's another cross out of the frame, I doubt you'd have enough wheel to pull off 5x on a normal diameter, so there probably is something to the 4x upper limit.

On low-flange hubs, don't the spokes on a 4x wheel partially cover the heads of their respective, adjacent spoke. I recall having to detension a spoke to move it out of the way to replace another. I am too much of a traditionalist to use anything but 3x.

Also, have any of you ever tried to read much of Jobst Brandt's wheel building book?