Commuting - Considering a Carbon Fiber Bike for Commuting

Hello everyone,

If you don't want to read the background, then skip to the bottom of my post.

Background
Two weeks ago I started commuting to work to lose weight, save dough, and get in shape. My commute is 16 mile each way (32 miles total) which takes about 70 minutes (140 minutes total) each way through city traffic. I commute 2-3 times a week.

I took my old 20 year old BCA hybrid out of retirement for the task. I have done my best to take just the bare minimums with me by leaving a change of cloths, lunch etc at work the day prior. The thing is that my old bike has a 4130 Chrome Molly frame which is very heavy. It is actually heavier than my aluminum frame full suspension mountain bike.

I have a friend that rides a CF bike to commute a similar distance. He swears by it so I have decided to buy one for myself.

Question
I found a listing on eBay that looks too good to be true. As they always say, if it looks too good to be true, it usually isn't true. Is this a good deal or not? Here are the "stats" for the listing:

FRAME
BOTTECCHIA FULL CARBON FIBER MONOCOQUE

FORK
BOTTECCHIA CARBON-FIBER 1-1/8” FITTED WITH FSA IS-2 AHEADSET

WHEELSET
VUELTA XRP PRO 30mm RIM W/ AERO SPOKES & PRECISION SEALED BEARINGS

TIRES
KENDA 23c DUAL COUMPONDBLK/RED/BLK

CRANK
FSA OMEGA COMPACT 50x34T ISIS w/EXTERNAL BEARINGS

PEDALS
BOTTECCHIA SPD CLIPLESS ALLOY

SHIFTERS
SHIMANO 105 SHIFTER/BRAKE LEVER

BRAKES
CANE CREEK SCR3 DUAL PIVOT COLD FORGED

FRONT DER
SHIMANO 105 5600

REAR DER
SHIMANO ULTEGRA 6700

CASSETTE
SHIMANO 105 10-SPEED 12/25T

CHAIN
SHIMANO 105 10-SPEED

HANDLEBARS
VUELTA XRP PRO 31.8 OS 6061 ALLOY

STEM
VUELTA XRP PRO 31.8 OS 6061 ALLOY

SEAT POST
VUELTA XRP PRO 27.2 x 300mm 6061 ALLOY

SADDLE
BOTTECCHIA

Price: $1144 w/ shipping

If this is not that good of a deal, where are the weaknesses and can they be helped with relatively cheap upgrades?

Just don't ride it in the sun.

Just don't ride it in the sun.


By that, do you mean that the epoxy on the CF parts does not have UV protection? That would be a major defect since I would be riding it a lot in intense sunlight.

seems more like a weekend recreational or racing bike to me not a commuter.

Why not go to a proper bike shop, they offer service after the sale , and you will need maintainence
if the commute is daily, and a relationship with a bike shop is a good thing.

Myself 10 speed is pushing the market , not responding to demand, But if $50.00 chains
is what you want to be buying as consumables , go ahead..

Bias , I happen to like nice steel framed road bikes, but just have an older one
a 90's Bridgestone RB1.

If I were to return to a 12 mile + commute , Id put my Zzipper ''thriller'' road fairing on the bike again, probably not the RB1

so there is less weather going thru my clothes all winter.. new bike? disc brakes for all weather stopping
as opposed to re building worn rims ..
Mudguards [RB1 has no easy Mudguard mount.], to keep road spew down to a minimum,
a handlebar bag , front Dyno Hub for lights, LED head and taillight.
and a big saddle bag..
fairing out in front aerodynamically the rest of the kit is not making more of a hole in the wind,

I would still favor books on audio rather than Music on an MP3 player , but thats just me..
still able to hear the approaching traffic behind me , and a mirror to check them out.

So you will be commuting about 400 miles a month / 5000 miles a year if you ride 3 days a week.

Do you live in a city with streets that are all smooth as glass with no glass and debris where it never rains and have a deep enough pocketbook to maintain the higher end components on your bike when they wear out ?

If your commute is flat a lot of the benefits of a lighter carbon fibre frame will be lost and they won't handle the same abuse as a quality aluminium or steel frame and bicycles made from steel and aluminium can also be quite light.

When carbon fails it is not pretty.

Most dedicated commuter bikes can accommodate wider / higher volume tyres, can run fenders, and carry a load (if needed)... many cx bikes make for excellent commuters as they are light, strong,and can allow or more aerodynamic positioning which is the most important thing if you want to go faster and longer.

I was not aware that CF bikes were that fragile. So they are like exotic sports cars? You only take them out on the weekend in pristine weather and roads?

The path that I take to work is mostly on bike paths. There is about 4 miles of roads that have cracks, some pot holes, rocks, glass and are in general disrepair. The rest of the trip is smooth, very pleasant with a good portion along the river.

CF is not that fragile... it is a very strong and light material but does not handle the same abuse as steel and Al frames can.

Am looking at an aluminium framed CX bike here with 105 components and Ritchey parts and figure it curbs out in the low 20's... it's a fast bike that can also take the kind of beating commuting can dish out.

My custom made steel mtb weighs about 22 - 23 pounds and is set up for road and trail use and will hold it's own on the road against most other bikes and when the road or conditions gets ugly it excels.

I was not aware that CF bikes were that fragile. So they are like exotic sports cars? You only take them out on the weekend in pristine weather and roads?

The path that I take to work is mostly on bike paths. There is about 4 miles of roads that have cracks, some pot holes, rocks, glass and are in general disrepair. The rest of the trip is smooth, very pleasant with a good portion along the river.

They aren't that fragile and any modern CF bike has ample UV protection. Still, a CF bikes is not something I'd want to get from a source like Ebay. There may be damage to the frame that's not visible.

The comment about the "smooth as glass" streets has more to do with the narrow tires than the CF frame but that's also a YMMV statement. I'd hardly consider the streets I ride on to be smooth as glass and I ride on 23mm tires most of the year. If I rode on really bad roads for a significant part of my commute I'd probably want something wider.

I'd also skip the CF bike for commuting unless you can bring the it inside with you at work. You need to consider how much stuff you need to bring because you have to be more careful about how you mount a rack.

My personal belief is that over time CF will start to become more common on less expensive bikes. Some of the concern regarding its durability is warranted. Alot of if it isn't.

CF can suffer catastrophic failures if the bike has crashed before. For this reason, I would not buy a used CF frame from someone I didn't know very well.

Also, CF bikes generally aren't built with commuting in mind. That means, they won't accommodate wider tires (usually not more than 25mm), won't have eyelets for fenders and/or a rack, and really aren't that comfortable for the kind of riding you'll do in most cities. Plus, if you have wet/snowy winters, your bike will age very fast. For this reason, many people here have dedicated winter/rain bikes and a lighter/faster bike for nice weather days.

Oh, and your average speed with a CF bike really won't be that much faster if much of your riding is in traffic. What slows you down the most in traffic is, well, traffic.

I will be storing the bike in my office at work so no fears of theft.

Also, I do not plan to ride the bike in the rain or when it gets too dark in the evening commute. That means that about mid Nov until mid Feb. I won't be commuting. As much as I enjoy riding, I know how bad the drivers are here and would rather not run the risk of getting hit by a motor vehicle. Heck, this morning, I got honked at because some woman in a car could not wait 2 seconds for me to go past the freeway on ramp. I am sure if it was dark, she would have ran me over.

For about half that price you can probably get a decent road bike from craigslist I suspect. With the money you save you could commuterize it nicely.

While I do appreciate everyone's comments and concerns about commuting with a CF bike, does anyone have any opinions about this specific bike?

If this is not that good of a deal, where are the weaknesses and can they be helped with relatively cheap upgrades?

I would not want to buy a frame for commuting which did not have rack eyelets.

Weight on a rack is _so much more pleasant_ than in a back-pack.

While in theory you could use a seat-post mounted rack, I've tried four. Three didn't work because my thighs rubbed on the clamp, and that was designed well on the other one but the pannier frames didn't keep them out of the wheels. You could use a quick-release mount, although then flat tires would mean unthreading the skewer.

While I do appreciate everyone's comments and concerns about commuting with a CF bike, does anyone have any opinions about this specific bike?

Link ?

I commute 18.5 miles one way and I use a cro-moly touring bike. I also have a CF road bike, which I have on occasion used to make the commute.

The disadvantages of the road bike: no good in the rain. Skinny tires and no fenders and it can't carry luggage. The road bike is much lighter than my heavy duty touring bike, but that only makes a difference when you're taking off from a red light, or climbing a hill (but not going downhill).

What I found is, I can take off insanely fast on my road bike, but once I'm up to speed, it's really no faster than the heavy touring bike. The CF faster in a bad cross wind because I don't carry luggage on it. My point is, don't expect to ride any faster on carbon unless you climb a lot of hills.

As far as your specific bike, I don't know. There are lots of folks on here who work at bike shops that might know. I've only owned 2 CF road bikes in the last 10 years and they were both Specialized.

seems more like a weekend recreational or racing bike to me not a commuter.

Myself 10 speed is pushing the market , not responding to demand, But if $50.00 chains
is what you want to be buying as consumables , go ahead..


Lesee.. $.30 a day for a bike I'd want to put chains on a bike I'd want to ride ride, vs. $3.50 in gas plus $5-$6 of life for a car I'd want to drive. 10 speed chains are essentially free.

Link ?

I was not sure if it was OK to post eBay links. They are as follows.

Here is the original listing but it appears that they removed the text. I guess they are editting it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/2010-MONOCOQUE-CARBON-FIBER-ROAD-BIKE-SHIMANO-ULTEGRA-/190451137298?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2c57c5bb12

I am also considering this listing from the same seller that has a few upgraded parts:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOTTECCHIA-CARBON-ROAD-BIKE-ULTEGRA-CARBON-CRANK-/190445465086?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2c576f2dfe

Bottechia is a rather famous name in cycling circles and Ottavio Bottechia was the first Italian to win the Tour de France and died under mysterious circumstances back in 1927.

The bicycles that bear his name have been made since 1926 as Bottechia partnered with the Italian builder, Carnielli and it has been one of the most successful Italian bicycle companies of all time as they built a wide range of bikes to satisfy wide market needs and has enjoyed very high sales numbers.

I am not familiar with these modern carbon fibre bikes that bear his name and like so many famous names would not be surprised if all this production was outsourced to Asian contractors.

I would ask for feedback in the road forum as this type of bike is something most commuters would not look at... the parts spec seems to be quite good and it is no entry level bike you are considering here although still at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to carbon fibre road bikes.

I was not aware that CF bikes were that fragile. So they are like exotic sports cars? You only take them out on the weekend in pristine weather and roads?

Well ... they make mountain and cross bikes out of carbon fiber. One area where CF really shines is on decent roadway, when a metal bike is going to send every crack in the pavement up your spine. Anyway, as far as potholes and the like go, it's your wheels and not the frame that's going to suffer.

As far as I can tell, the crank set is the weak point on that bike. Do you already have SPD shoes?

when it's not raining, I ride my CF Spec Roubaix. when it's raining, I ride the Trek Soho for the drum brakes. sometimes I throw in the Xootr Swift folder for variety.


I commute 18.5 miles one way and I use a cro-moly touring bike. I also have a CF road bike, which I have on occasion used to make the commute.

The disadvantages of the road bike: no good in the rain. Skinny tires and no fenders and it can't carry luggage. The road bike is much lighter than my heavy duty touring bike, but that only makes a difference when you're taking off from a red light, or climbing a hill (but not going downhill).

What I found is, I can take off insanely fast on my road bike, but once I'm up to speed, it's really no faster than the heavy touring bike. The CF faster in a bad cross wind because I don't carry luggage on it. My point is, don't expect to ride any faster on carbon unless you climb a lot of hills.

As far as your specific bike, I don't know. There are lots of folks on here who work at bike shops that might know. I've only owned 2 CF road bikes in the last 10 years and they were both Specialized.

For commuting, I'd skip that carbon road bike (with very little in the way of commuting utility) and get a commuter-worthy cx bike with 25-28mm slicks (or 32, depending on the roads you ride).

Quite frankly, for $1000 to $1200 you have a ton of options, especially if you are looking into the distributor direct bikes such as the one you posted.
The photos and format are remarkably similar to bikesdirect (also located in Houston). Coincidence????
Opinions vary here, but I've purchased two bikes from BD and feel they are solid values for the money spent.

Why get carbon for $1200 when you can get titanium for a little more? This one has rack mounts, too. http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fantom_cross_pro_ti_xi.htm

One area where CF really shines is on decent roadway, when a metal bike is going to send every crack in the pavement up your spine.

Let some air out of your tires! Try 90psi.

So for us fatties who need to run high psi to avoid pinch flats, cf is a good choice!

This sounds like a fun problem to have. =) Its one of the fun things about commuting figuring out what you will ride. I would lie to see a pic of your old hybrid.

If your hybrid is really that heavy any legit entry level road bike you would buy would seem fast in comparison. That said I don't know if I would go for a carbon fiber frame, but I have a Titanium frame so I am pretty happy with it. I would have concerns about the durability also, but if you are just riding to work and back it would probably be just fine. For that price If you have that much money to spend and you can do the assembly it seems like a pretty good deal to me if you really want Carbon. If you want to soak up bumps and road noise buy a suspension seatpost, get some wider tires and the perfect seat. That will matter much more than any frame will. Have fun as other have said for that price range there are a ton of new bikes you can get.

32 wide Panasonic Paselas or Jack Brown 33's soften the road the old fashioned way, Pneumatically.

what I was rambling on about is its past autumnal equinox, and summer is over.

the days are getting shorter, so lights and fenders ,
and a way to carry your foul weather gear
even if you dont have to wear it when you start out , is to be considered.

stripped down race bike is not going to be racy when you finish hanging
all that Practical stuff on it.

Metal is still the practical stuff .. get the CF thing for the weekends,
maybe knock out the Davis Double Century..

For that money you do have a lot of options. But if you have your heart set on it, go ahead and get the danged thing. If it doesn't work out, sell it and get something else.

The cons of a bike like that have been covered already. The pros? It might just be a ton of fun to ride, and if all you need to carry can be stuffed into a saddle bag and jersey pockets, then there's no real problem. There's nothing wrong with using a good commuting backpack either as long as your not putting too much crap in it.

I use my road bike and its skinny 23 mm tires all the way until the snow falls in late November or early December. It's not like I don't have a choice, - I do. I have what many here would consider a pretty nice lugged steel bike that can take a range of tires widths and makes a great commuter. It's got a rack on it, and I have a nice set of panniers.

But I choose to take the road bike because for me it's more fun. Now the situation is a little different. It's only partially CF and if anything happened to it I could probably find another for under $400. It's also a 9 speed so things like chains and cassettes aren't terribly expensive to replace. If I had a nice CF bike in the garage though, I'd be awfully tempted to ride it more than just on weekends.

Well ... they make mountain and cross bikes out of carbon fiber. One area where CF really shines is on decent roadway, when a metal bike is going to send every crack in the pavement up your spine. Anyway, as far as potholes and the like go, it's your wheels and not the frame that's going to suffer.

As far as I can tell, the crank set is the weak point on that bike. Do you already have SPD shoes?

You need to share this with the folks in the touring forum... they still seem to be stuck in the dark ages and most run steel framed bikes.

:)

Let some air out of your tires! Try 90psi.

That's a much cheaper option than a carbon frame ... or even just a seatpost. And running wider tires will get the same kind of effect. Most riders are probably better off this way, to be honest.

My carbon fiber bike gives a smoother ride on 700x23 at 100 to 110 psi than my aluminum bike on 700x28 at 100 psi. And it's a lot faster, as you would expect. Not that commuting is a race.

I wish I got a CF bike years ago. But then I basically paid for mine with labor, and wouldn't part with what it actually cost out of pocket. So I give the stuff a mixed endorsement. :thumb:

While I do appreciate everyone's comments and concerns about commuting with a CF bike, does anyone have any opinions about this specific bike?

No-name carbon. I'd stay away personally. I own a full CF bike, and while I use it for commuting on occasion, I'd never use it on a daily basis.

So for us fatties who need to run high psi to avoid pinch flats, cf is a good choice!

Steel is a better one.

The only reasons I don't use my carbon bike (well, carbon/aluminum mix) for everyday commuting are that it doesn't have a dynohub (my dynohub bike has really spoiled me ;)) and I haven't put a rack on it yet.

Go ahead and get it. It probably came out of the same factory as most name-branded carbon bikes anyway.

CF can suffer catastrophic failures if the bike has crashed before.

Yes. But so can steel.

I had a previously-abused (by me) steel mountain bike break completely in half, instantaneously, with no warning in '99.

I've broken steel and aluminum folding bike frames commuting in NYC, but my CF Scott road bike which I also use for commuting a lot is as good as new. YMMV.

Can I assume from the OP's screen name that he's in my Fair City? If so, I can offer some advice.

AFAIK Bottechia and Vuelta brands found on eBay have nothing to do with any Italian design or technology and nothing to do with Italy other than the origin of the word, they're cheap Chinese products sold under fancy Italian names. I bought a set of Vuelta wheels and they're complete garbage. Their "aluminum" hubs rusted after few weeks of riding.

As mentioned before, unless your roads are pristine get a steel or aluminum bike with MTB components. Carbon bikes with Ultegra parts are not meant to take the daily abuse of commuting. If you want a toy get a carbon bike otherwise stay away from them, they're racing bikes: no way to attach fenders, racks. The carbon frames are delicate: I knew someone from a bike club whose chain fell off while he was climbing and in the process damaged the chainstay (chainsaw effect?), the frame was trash, too expensive to fix.

I know another guy at work whose carbon fork shattered from hitting a stone on a fast descent, ended up with broken pelvis. I never heard of steel forks breaking like that.


I've broken steel and aluminum folding bike frames commuting in NYC, but my CF Scott road bike which I also use for commuting a lot is as good as new. YMMV.

Comparing a folding bike to a solid bike, eh? Folding bikes are weaker, no surprise here.

I'm a cheapskate and 51 years old, so keep that in mind.

I wouldn't choose a racing bike for commuting regardless of frame material. I would not want to commute on a bike with such skinny tires. That's just me, a lot of people do just that around here (Boulder Colorado). I can carry a change of clothes and lunch in one pannier and I'm much happier with those things on a rack instead of in a backpack.

If you truly keep up the commute, you'll loose the weight difference between your current bike and the CF bike, but it's a lifestyle commitment that probably takes more than two weeks to really establish. You'll also get faster the more you do the ride.

I know another guy at work whose carbon fork shattered from hitting a stone on a fast descent, ended up with broken pelvis. I never heard of steel forks breaking like that.

I know a guy who I also work with who's steel fork broke without warning and he broke his collarbone. I don't know anyone personally who's had a carbon component break that resulted in injury. (Not doubting your story, just relating my own experience.)

The carbon frames are delicate: I knew someone from a bike club whose chain fell off while he was climbing and in the process damaged the chainstay (chainsaw effect?), the frame was trash, too expensive to fix.

Awesome! Free replacement frame under warranty...! :thumb:

As mentioned before, unless your roads are pristine get a steel or aluminum bike with MTB components. Carbon bikes with Ultegra parts are not meant to take the daily abuse of commuting. If you want a toy get a carbon bike otherwise stay away from them, they're racing bikes: no way to attach fenders, racks. The carbon frames are delicate: I knew someone from a bike club whose chain fell off while he was climbing and in the process damaged the chainstay (chainsaw effect?), the frame was trash, too expensive to fix.

I know another guy at work whose carbon fork shattered from hitting a stone on a fast descent, ended up with broken pelvis. I never heard of steel forks breaking like that.



Comparing a folding bike to a solid bike, eh? Folding bikes are weaker, no surprise here.

People on this very forum have had to replace steel frames because they came apart at a joint, - for no apparent reason at all. Quality, modern CF frames often don't even have any joints on the major tubes. It's all one piece.

Many carbon race bikes see far more miles than a typical commuter does. The miles I put in training easily exceed the miles I put in commuting and the roads on my group ride are typically worse than the ones on my commute. The idea that road bikes need to be babied is BS.

And what exactly is wrong with Ultegra other than being expensive? ;) It's not fragile but neither is it designed for mountain gearing. It's certainly durable enough for commuting. For that matter, Sora (3 grades lower) is probably fine too.

I posted this in another thread but here's a carbon bike designed with commuting in mind:

http://mos.bikeradar.com/images/news/2007/Eurobike/street%20rods/Orbeaflat-798-99.jpg

So what did you decide (or is there a lot of time left in that auction)?

Many carbon race bikes sees far more miles than a typical commuter does.

I put a mile on my carbon fiber road bike this past weekend. :thumb: Mind you, I'm talking about a vertical mile; I did 80 of the horizontal kind to achieve that. :eek:

I know another guy at work whose carbon fork shattered from hitting a stone on a fast descent, ended up with broken pelvis. I never heard of steel forks breaking like that.

My question is, how much does a steel fork typically weigh compared to a carbon one?

If the steel fork was just as light as a carbon model, and also mass-produced overseas, would you trust that?

My question is, how much does a steel fork typically weigh compared to a carbon one?

If the steel fork was just as light as a carbon model, and also mass-produced overseas, would you trust that?

When you commute you need to put the obsession with weight aside. If one commutes light only on a nice, dry, sunny days without carrying much stuff it's a recreational ride, not commute :D


Many carbon race bikes see far more miles than a typical commuter does.[/IMG]

But they don't take as much beating nor carry as much weight as a commuter bikes do.

I still stand by my opinion that a carbon bike is not a good choice for serious commuting.

And speaking of parts, yes MTB drivetrains are more rugged than road components. That's one of the reasons why touring bikes usually have MTB components.

When you commute you need to put the obsession with weight aside. If one commutes light only on a nice, dry, sunny days without carrying much stuff it's a recreational ride, not commute :D



But they don't take as much beating nor carry as much weight as a commuter bikes do.

I still stand by my opinion that a carbon bike is not a good choice for serious commuting.

And speaking of parts, yes MTB drivetrains are more rugged than road components. That's one of the reasons why touring bikes usually have MTB components.

Why would a commuter take more of beating than a racing bike? I mean I'm sure there are cases where that's true but for me at least, commuting is pretty easy miles. Crashing is a frequent occurrence in racing, hopefully not so much in commuting.

The weight of me + my commuting gear is less than the weight of about 1/3 of the people on my group rides, so I'm sure most road bikes can handle the weight unless you're a clyde or you haul 60 lbs. of gear on your commute.

Touring bikes typically use a mix of MTB components and road components. They use the MTB drive trains for the low gearing, not necessarily for the ruggedness though I'm sure if your carrying a lot of gear MTB hubs make more sense.

Touring <> commuting for most people. For that matter, the loads put on components during a race are more extreme than what you'll see in a commute.

I have two bikes I use for commuting. One is a steel frame touring bike with racks and fenders. The other is a carbon fiber cannondale synapse with a quick release seatpost bag. When it's wet or raining I take the touring bike. The fenders keep the spray from the road off of me and the drivetrain. The rack allows be to carry a lot more gear (mostly clothing to keep me warm and dry) than I can carry in the seatpost bag on the carbon bike. However, on a dry day, I'll take the carbon bike every time. It is much quicker and a lot more fun to ride and is much more efficient (especially climbing.) My biggest concern is not the frame material. The route I travel is 90 percent smooth bike trails. The remaining 10 percent is city streets ( a few potholes, cracks, and some rough pavement.) I'm most concerned about the wheels. The touring bike has 36 spoke wheels that can take a beating. The carbon bike has 20 spokes rear wheel, 16 spoke front wheel. I'm not concerned about either set of wheels carrying the weight of the rider or gear, however... if I hit one of those potholes or cracks, I think about the effect it has on low-spoke count wheels.

so far, so good on both bikes.

I have two bikes I use for commuting. One is a steel frame touring bike with racks and fenders. The other is a carbon fiber cannondale synapse with a quick release seatpost bag. When it's wet or raining I take the touring bike. The fenders keep the spray from the road off of me and the drivetrain. The rack allows be to carry a lot more gear (mostly clothing to keep me warm and dry) than I can carry in the seatpost bag on the carbon bike. However, on a dry day, I'll take the carbon bike every time. It is much quicker and a lot more fun to ride and is much more efficient (especially climbing.) My biggest concern is not the frame material. The route I travel is 90 percent smooth bike trails. The remaining 10 percent is city streets ( a few potholes, cracks, and some rough pavement.) I'm most concerned about the wheels. The touring bike has 36 spoke wheels that can take a beating. The carbon bike has 20 spokes rear wheel, 16 spoke front wheel. I'm not concerned about either set of wheels carrying the weight of the rider or gear, however... if I hit one of those potholes or cracks, I think about the effect it has on low-spoke count wheels.

so far, so good on both bikes.

I have two sets of wheels for my road bike. One for competition and group rides and the other for commuting/whatever. The problem is that I get lazy about swapping them.

I did break a spoke at the end of a training once on my low spoke count wheels. I was able to get home by opening up the brakes. Now I carry an "Emergency Spoke Kit' with me. It's basically a thick kevlar string and can replace any spoke, even on the drive side of the rear wheel without having to remove the cassette. It fits in a tiny vial and I keep it in my seat bag.

I bet a good quality steel frame will take more beating and last much longer then any carbon fibre frame. And even if a steel frame does brake, I am sure I could weld it and fix it up. When a $ 3000 carbon fibre frame cracks or breaks it's only good for a landfill site.

I bet a good quality steel frame will take more beating and last much longer then any carbon fibre frame. And even if a steel frame does brake, I am sure I could weld it and fix it up. When a $ 3000 carbon fibre frame cracks or breaks it's only good for a landfill site.

http://www.calfeedesign.com/howtosendrepair.htm
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/02/technical-faq/technical-faq-saving-that-damaged-carbon-frame_105242

From Zinn's article on Velo News:

I saw Calfee technicians repairing frames that had seatstays that had been completely severed, and they looked good as new when done. In the dozens and dozens of frames of all makes that were in the shop for repair, I saw plenty that had minor cracks as well as ones that were cracked through all of the layers so that, for instance, a big section of the down tube was gushy and would push in with light thumb pressure. And all of these they could fix.

It sounds strange to say that carbon can be repaired, and maybe even finished better than any metal, but it's apparently true.

Maybe my experience is unusual, but my racing and group ride miles are on much rougher pavement than my commute. And the stresses on the drivetrains are much tougher.