Foo - Question for Foo Electricians

The power just went out to my living room outlets.
The fuse is not blown, I reset it anyway, no joy.
More than one outlet was affected so I'm guessing the circuit breaker itself has failed. Does this sound reasonable?
And does anyone remember how to swap out a circuit breaker? I haven't done it in 10+ years.


Much thanks,

--Allen

http://www.lissaloveslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/zapped.gif

Do you have a fork lift? If not, I'm afraid I won't be of any help.

Do you have a fork lift? If not, I'm afraid I won't be of any help.

I have a Massey Ferguson with a PTO, 35 feet of heavy duty chain with tow hooks on both ends, an Eastwing three foot wrecking bar, and if all else fails a 50 caliber mussel loading musket to put the poor thing out of its misery.

I really don't want to shoot my house (again).

Oops, did I say fork lift? I meant a pair of plyers :o

Do you smell any cooking mice?

Do you smell any cooking mice?

Nope.
Nothing that smells like ozone or an Alabama BBQ.

And no suspicious fires. Only obvious ones, but they are well behaved--seem like nice kids.

Do you smell any cooking mice?

With a hint of chianti.

Seriously, you're going to need a bucket of water to remove that fuse. Let me know when you're ready to start.

With a hint of chianti.

Seriously, you're going to need a bucket of water to remove that fuse. Let me know when you're ready to start.

As soon as I get the metal sheeting laid out across the floor I'll PM you.

Oh, on that note--I tested to see which outlets were working with a hair dryer.

Have you checked to be certain that there isn't a GFCI outlet that is tripped somewhere? I lived in a house that had random outlets connected together and each breaker had a GFCI on it somewhere. It was always "fun" to try to find the one that had tripped.

Now If only we had a wheelbarrow that would be something

Have you checked to be certain that there isn't a GFCI outlet that is tripped somewhere? I lived in a house that had random outlets connected together and each breaker had a GFCI on it somewhere. It was always "fun" to try to find the one that had tripped.

Yep. The only GFCI outlets are in the bath, and kitchen. Both are on separate lines than the living room.

Now If only we had a wheelbarrow that would be something

How about an old van. I have an old van.
And a telescope and a broken airplane propeller.

Assuming no GFI that's tripped somewhere in the circuit....

Do you own and know how to use a volt meter ?.

If yes: Test drive the meter by testing it on a known good outlet. Turn on meter and set it to test anything over 120 volts AC. Then take off the cover to the CB panel. Find the correct circuit breaker. With the breaker set to the ON position, place black meter lead wire against the panel casing, and/or against the neutral buss (where all the white wires connect), then place the red meter lead/wire on the breaker terminal. Do not touch any wires with your hand/fingers.

If the meter shows 115 - 120'ish volts, the breaker is putting out power. Then turn off the breaker to make sure the voltage reading goes to zero. If it doesn't you might have a breaker issue. If there's no voltage out of the breaker when it's set to ON, then bad breaker. If the breaker functions and shows voltage when ON and none when OFF, then chances are the breakers OK and the problem is in the wiring and/or outlets.

Trace down the wiring to try to find the first outlet or light. If the breaker kills power to the circuit when OFF, then turn it off and start opening up outlets/lights till you find either a loose hot wire, loose neutral wire, bad receptacle, loose terminal connection, etc... Then try to trace your way down the circuit.

BTW, is the hair dryer/tester good ?.

Steve B.

Extension cords.

Have you checked to be certain that there isn't a GFCI outlet that is tripped somewhere? I lived in a house that had random outlets connected together and each breaker had a GFCI on it somewhere. It was always "fun" to try to find the one that had tripped.

^yes,or press lightly on the circut breaker to see it is grabbing on the rear tab.If you're"afeared",turn the main off at the top of the panel box before you press on the breaker.
Are you sure you turned the breaker to OFF then ON?
Is there another(sub)panel in the house with CB's?
Check the non-functioning outlet nearest the electric panel (outlets are usually in sequence)to see if it's hot.Could be a loose lead on the first outlet.
You do own a $2 circut tester?Two paper clips with bare hands will also work if money is an issue(do not stand in water with this economy tester).


Call us back after you check the above items:thumb:

Assuming no GFI that's tripped somewhere in the circuit....

Do you own and know how to use a volt meter ?.

If yes: Test drive the meter by testing it on a known good outlet. Turn on meter and set it to test anything over 120 volts AC. Then take off the cover to the CB panel. Find the correct circuit breaker. With the breaker set to the ON position, place black meter lead wire against the panel casing, and/or against the neutral buss (where all the white wires connect), then place the red meter lead/wire on the breaker terminal. Do not touch any wires with your hand/fingers.

If the meter shows 115 - 120'ish volts, the breaker is putting out power. Then turn off the breaker to make sure the voltage reading goes to zero. If it doesn't you might have a breaker issue. If there's no voltage out of the breaker when it's set to ON, then bad breaker. If the breaker functions and shows voltage when ON and none when OFF, then chances are the breakers OK and the problem is in the wiring and/or outlets.

Trace down the wiring to try to find the first outlet or light. If the breaker kills power to the circuit when OFF, then turn it off and start opening up outlets/lights till you find either a loose hot wire, loose neutral wire, bad receptacle, loose terminal connection, etc... Then try to trace your way down the circuit.

BTW, is the hair dryer/tester good ?.

Steve B.

But, but ... you forgot the water :eek: You youngin's and your high tech methods :notamused:

Anyone remember when the Three Stooges Contracting Co hooked up the electric lights,turned on the switch,and water shot out of the light fixtures?

Assuming no GFI that's tripped somewhere in the circuit....

Do you own and know how to use a volt meter ?.

If yes: Test drive the meter by testing it on a known good outlet. Turn on meter and set it to test anything over 120 volts AC. Then take off the cover to the CB panel. Find the correct circuit breaker. With the breaker set to the ON position, place black meter lead wire against the panel casing, and/or against the neutral buss (where all the white wires connect), then place the red meter lead/wire on the breaker terminal. Do not touch any wires with your hand/fingers.

If the meter shows 115 - 120'ish volts, the breaker is putting out power. Then turn off the breaker to make sure the voltage reading goes to zero. If it doesn't you might have a breaker issue. If there's no voltage out of the breaker when it's set to ON, then bad breaker. If the breaker functions and shows voltage when ON and none when OFF, then chances are the breakers OK and the problem is in the wiring and/or outlets.

Trace down the wiring to try to find the first outlet or light. If the breaker kills power to the circuit when OFF, then turn it off and start opening up outlets/lights till you find either a loose hot wire, loose neutral wire, bad receptacle, loose terminal connection, etc... Then try to trace your way down the circuit.

BTW, is the hair dryer/tester good ?.

Steve B.

No joy on the volt meter.
I know all of the outlets are daisy chained on one line (and the only thing on that line) headed back to the circumspect CB.

Order of business tomorrow is head to the hardware store, buy volt meter and a new circuit breaker.
Test existing CB.
Replace if screwy.
Hope I'm not checking outlets.


And thank you very much.

Turn off the main disconnect before you poke your nose in the breaker box.
Make sure you buy the same brand as the panel GE,Siemens,etc. and amps.
Breakers are cheap,no need for an expensive tester yet,or you can drive over and borrow mine.

Gotcha.
Throw the big switch outside first.
Pull the dodgy circuit breaker and drive to the hardware store with it in hand.
Replace everything.
Throw big Igor switch on the back of the house on (this is where the bucket of water and sheet metal come into play) and see if I have power in the living room.

Did you pay the power bill in full?

just power your house with a van der graaf generator that is bicycle driven.

Ummmm you know that the main circuit breaker to a house has line voltage going to it, right? 240V with wire from the mains that's 3/8" thick -- capable of carrying hundreds of amps. Normally electricians have to call the power company to physically disconnect power from your home to swap these out. And I don't understand why a poster suggested keeping with the same brand, this makes no sense. Fundamentally they're all about the same; there are standards that they all abide by. You might also see this as an opportunity to upgrade your panel to a higher amperage one. When my parent's failed, they upgraded from a 100 to a 200 amp breaker.

The only tool you need:

http://www.evanscycles.com/product_image/image/d03/c89/183/26306/product_page/topeak-x-tool-multi-tool-10-function.jpg?1227116092

The only tool you need:

http://www.evanscycles.com/product_image/image/d03/c89/183/26306/product_page/topeak-x-tool-multi-tool-10-function.jpg?1227116092

incorrect, son.
This is GA. The only tool you need is this:
http://armchairoutfitter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/auto-5.jpg

Turn off the main disconnect before you poke your nose in the breaker box.
Make sure you buy the same brand as the panel GE,Siemens,etc. and amps.
Breakers are cheap,no need for an expensive tester yet,or you can drive over and borrow mine.

One of the reasons I didn't recommend cutting the main was EVERYTHING in the house gets dumped when you do this. Hot water heater, furnace, setback thermostats, every frigging clock, etc.... Should you call a licensed electrician, they will generally not cut the main as they know there way around a panel and feel comfortable with live wires and buss bars.

Radio Shack, Home Depot and Lowes as well as your local Ace have meters, they're not that expensive and it's a good thing to have for a home owner. That a a basic knowledge of electricity.

SB

Assuming no GFI that's tripped somewhere in the circuit....

Do you own and know how to use a volt meter ?.

If yes: Test drive the meter by testing it on a known good outlet.

...snip...


Steve B.

That's really good step-by-step troubleshooting.

Here's a video demonstrating it (http://www.wimp.com/irontesla/). ;)

This is scary!

Have you checked to be certain that there isn't a GFCI outlet that is tripped somewhere? I lived in a house that had random outlets connected together and each breaker had a GFCI on it somewhere. It was always "fun" to try to find the one that had tripped.

+1 that's what I'm dealing with at my house now.

Ummmm you know that the main circuit breaker to a house has line voltage going to it, right? 240V with wire from the mains that's 3/8" thick -- capable of carrying hundreds of amps. Normally electricians have to call the power company to physically disconnect power from your home to swap these out. And I don't understand why a poster suggested keeping with the same brand, this makes no sense. Fundamentally they're all about the same; there are standards that they all abide by. You might also see this as an opportunity to upgrade your panel to a higher amperage one. When my parent's failed, they upgraded from a 100 to a 200 amp breaker.

He only needs to replace a single breaker, not the main one. I also tend to suggest staying with the same brand/type because it keeps people from taking a second trip to the store when the first one they buy is a different form factor and doesn't fit. The price difference isn't going to break the bank in the case of the people I've suggested it to. I will admit though that I don't think I would advise anyone who doesn't happen to own a DMM/voltmeter to do electrical work without experienced supervision*. That's like advising someone who doesn't own a socket set or torque wrench that changing a clutch on a front wheel drive car is easy.

*Foo, that would be experience at the current topic, not experience supervising, we have plenty of that around here.

One of the reasons I didn't recommend cutting the main was EVERYTHING in the house gets dumped when you do this. Hot water heater, furnace, setback thermostats, every frigging clock, etc.... Should you call a licensed electrician, they will generally not cut the main as they know there way around a panel and feel comfortable with live wires and buss bars.
Radio Shack, Home Depot and Lowes as well as your local Ace have meters, they're not that expensive and it's a good thing to have for a home owner. That a a basic knowledge of electricity.
SB
Do you think a guy who doesn't own a voltmeter has the same level of experience inside a live fuse box as a licensed electrician?

Do you think a guy who doesn't own a voltmeter has the same level of experience inside a live fuse box as a licensed electrician?

I'm crafty.
Threw the main power, snapped the old breaker out and took it to the store.
Got a new one and snapped it back in place.
Threw the power back, voilà, power is back in the living room outlets.

I'm crafty.
Threw the main power, snapped the old breaker out and took it to the store.
Got a new one and snapped it back in place.
Threw the power back, voilà, power is back in the living room outlets.
Glad you're alive and that everything works. Throwing the main power makes this a pretty reasonable task, and that little flip means that you are no longer playing inside a live box. I was remarking at the suggestion that you leave the main breaker on to avoid needing to reset your clocks. I still wouldn't blindly encourage a stranger to play inside a live breaker box without some indication that they are electrically experienced.

Glad you're alive and that everything works. Throwing the main power makes this a pretty reasonable task, and that little flip means that you are no longer playing inside a live box. I was remarking at the suggestion that you leave the main breaker on to avoid needing to reset your clocks. I still wouldn't blindly encourage a stranger to play inside a live breaker box without some indication that they are electrically experienced.

I was an electrician in the navy. I have no problem resetting clocks.

Please go back and re-read my post, in the 2nd line I ask if he owns and knows how to use a volt meter.

If the answer is no to both, then the reply is: Get an electrician, though he seems to have done just fine without one.

The issue of throwing the main is not so much the friggin clocks, though I have enough in my house to not want to throw the main. And it's not just alarm clocks, it's everything that has an internal clock or timer that you don't really want to program if not needed, set back thermostats as example. Other issues are the heating systems that sometimes - depending on age, may well require the gas company/oil burner company, etc... to come out and re-set the damned system. I for one and perfectly comfortable inside a live electrical panel but gas scares the hell out of me.

So I don't throw the main unless I'm well prepared to re-set all of that stuff and I don't recommend it either.

SB

Put the lime in the coconut, drink them both together,
Put the lime in the coconut, then you feel better,
Put the lime in the coconut, drink them both up,
Put the lime in the coconut, and call me in the morning.

Couch

Don't know if it's been mentioned, not going to read everything, but we had the same thing happen about 4 months ago. end up being a neutral that wiggled loose somehow and drew some current through it, ended up frying an outlet. Replaced the first outlet in the line, buddy of mine (electrician) moved and tighten the neutral, problem solved. YMMV

Ummmm you know that the main circuit breaker to a house has line voltage going to it, right? 240V with wire from the mains that's 3/8" thick -- capable of carrying hundreds of amps. Normally electricians have to call the power company to physically disconnect power from your home to swap these out. And I don't understand why a poster suggested keeping with the same brand, this makes no sense. Fundamentally they're all about the same; there are standards that they all abide by. You might also see this as an opportunity to upgrade your panel to a higher amperage one. When my parent's failed, they upgraded from a 100 to a 200 amp breaker.

Stick to being a student and leave this stuff to people with experience.
Now get back to"neeked" texting that coed!

Don't know if it's been mentioned, not going to read everything, but we had the same thing happen about 4 months ago. end up being a neutral that wiggled loose somehow and drew some current through it, ended up frying an outlet. Replaced the first outlet in the line, buddy of mine (electrician) moved and tighten the neutral, problem solved. YMMV

That is precisely why I asked to OP to check the first plug on the circut.This happens more frequently than a defective circut breaker.
Like Lightingguy stated"trace/test all the outlets back to the source".

Sure wish they would bring back the old screw-in fuse boxes.
People could just stick a penny in a circut to get things cooking again:thumb:

When my parent's failed, they upgraded from a 100 to a 200 amp breaker.Did they upgrade the wiring as well?

^Shouldn't that only matter between the main breaker at the top of the box and the breakers below it? The wiring in the rest of the house should be regulated by the individuals breakers.

^Shouldn't that only matter between the main breaker at the top of the box and the breakers below it? The wiring in the rest of the house should be regulated by the individuals breakers.I was talking about his parent's house with a 240v feed from the pole to the main-breaker. This is typically #4 copper or #2 aluminium. Even then, #2 aluminium is not rated for 100amps continuous power and is only allowed for residential installations with lower duty-cycle. Putting a 200-amp main-break on a #2 aluminium feed is simply stupid, not to mention highly illegal. You would need to upgrade the wiring between your main-panel and pole to #2/0 copper or #4/0 aluminum in order to feed a 200-amp main.

yes, the wiring to the sub-panels can remain the same.

One of the reasons I didn't recommend cutting the main was EVERYTHING in the house gets dumped when you do this. Hot water heater, furnace, setback thermostats, every frigging clock, etc.... Should you call a licensed electrician, they will generally not cut the main as they know there way around a panel and feel comfortable with live wires and buss bars.

Radio Shack, Home Depot and Lowes as well as your local Ace have meters, they're not that expensive and it's a good thing to have for a home owner. That a a basic knowledge of electricity.

SB

I agree, just don't be a dumbass when removing the bad breaker and all will be fine. Don't pull the breaker with tools in your hands, and be leery of everything metal in the box while you are working in there.

I agree, just don't be a dumbass when removing the bad breake
r and all will be fine. Don't pull the breaker with tools in your hands, and be leery of everything metal in the box while you are working in there.

Many electricians don't wear wedding rings, metal watches or other metal bracelets when working.

SB

Allen, you haven't fix this yet?
Allen...
Allen?
Allen!

I'm getting a weird feeling about this... anybody seen Allen as of late?