General Cycling Discussion - Powerbalance/Magnetic bracelets

Does anyone here use them? I have seen magnetic bracelets/anklets in the past, and being a western trained physical therapist, i am obviously skeptical, however, i know people with carpal tunnel who couldn't even function able to return to work 100% with magnetic bracelets. (one of them IS a fellow PT)

How about these power balance bracelets? Apparently there is some hologram thing that interacts with your bodies energy field. I have always had an interest in non-traditional medicine/techniques, hence why i am in a non-surgical field :D.

Any reviews from cyclists? I saw the PB ad in triathlon magazine

i tried them, they didn't seem to do anything, i didn't notice any difference.

I had a copper bracelet when I was in college, all it did was turn my wrist green.

Don't bother with them or Phiten. None of that stuff works.

I emailed me to see if they would send me one to try. Legitimately i do get a lot of clients that ask me about these fad type things... (especially sketchers ez tones haha)

You could find anecdotal evidence seeming to show that any of the "non-traditional" stuff works.
Any actual research in support of that? Not likely.


"The hologram in Power Balance is designed to resonate with and respond to the natural energy field of the body."
If you think that it's going to work, then you will be inclined to think that it is working.

You have to consider the possibility that you'll get them on reversed, which will reverse the polarity and CAUSE carpal tunnel syndrome.

When I started cycling, my goal was to do a century. I tried and tried but 45 miles was the best I could do till I tried the magnetic bracelet. I bought it on Friday and did a century the following day.:p

I have to remove it on days when the plan is 50 miles.:D

Snake oil.

try voo dod ceremony with blood of roosters next.

Actually the magnetics are based on science and not total snake oil.

My wife suffers from carpal tunnel. A friend gave her some bracelets to wear but did not tell her what they were for or what they were, made a huge difference. She still wears them to this day, and it is true physiological relief not psycological.

I have aches and pains from too many years of destructive behavior ;) I was working at a primary aluminum metals plant, we would go and sit near the hot pots in the huge magnetic fields at the end of the pots, after a 15 minutes or so your joints would stop hurting, it also played hell with watches, cell phones and credit cards.

Aaron :)

we would go and sit near the hot pots in the huge magnetic fields at the end of the pots
:)

It was the heat, not the magnetism..................... BIG HOT............cures all aches, pains, defects......As Seen on TV!

Snake oil.


Not completely. Some get relief via the placebo effect. Would I buy one? No, because I know it's mechanism so it wouldn't work for me.

I recall that titanium was supposed to have some kind of benefit other than frame material science. People started buying titanium jewelry. I call it jewelry. Also some people buy certain kinds of magnets and attach it to their water line. Supposed to do some kind of polarization of the water. Also there's a lot of multi level marketing of water units that convert tap water to alkaline water.

You might find research papers that supposedly support the claims of benefits. But take those research footnotes and see if it applies to what the promoter is trying to assert. If you don't have the background to vett out the research claims, then take it to someone who is able.

It was the heat, not the magnetism..................... BIG HOT............cures all aches, pains, defects......As Seen on TV!

Not in the summer time! Winter time absolutely, we would actually sit on the pot covers. This plant is in the deep south and 115* not including heat index wasn't out of the question, and then you are wearing cotton long johns, and full sleeve wool pants and shirts.:eek:

Aaron:)

Not completely. Some get relief via the placebo effect.

I think that's practically the definition of a snake oil product: Something that only triggers a placebo effect rather than having an innate medical effect.

I've worn a "Balance Bracelet" since 1984 to help with my growing arthritis pain. I wear it 24/7/365 to blunt the pain and for me it works.

Do I know how it works? Nope. Do I care that it might simply be the placebo effect? Nope. All I know is that I don't have near the level of pain that I do without it around my wrist so I don't "think it to death" trying to understand it. When I'm not in pain why the hell should I care?

Sure, I know millions say that devices like my bracelet are "snake oil" or "useless trash" but remember that if something gives a person relief from pain then it really is "medicine" in a very real sense. When the pain is gone only the stupid will ask why or how.........

I had a copper bracelet when I was in college, all it did was turn my wrist green.

my dad used to have bad arthritis in his hands, to the point where they really served no function. He got a job in copper manufacturing 12 years ago and hasnt had a problem since.

I hear anecdotal evidence.

but at what point is anecdotal substantiated? (obviously a double blind trial would be nice), but i have never seen one of those on these types of products.

Here's a pot stirrer, i have seen chiropractors do very similar effects with patients testing their balance or strength, and manipulating an unrelated spinal segment, and having changes 'instantly' following the manipulation. (example, manipulating cervical region, having improved balance in legs)

my dad used to have bad arthritis in his hands, to the point where they really served no function. He got a job in copper manufacturing 12 years ago and hasnt had a problem since.

As a life long fan of John Wayne I remember that he wore a copper bracelet on his right wrist in the latter years of his life no matter what the movie was he was working on at the time. If a bit of copper can help The Duke with his pain then there has to be something to it.

but at what point is anecdotal substantiated? (obviously a double blind trial would be nice), but i have never seen one of those on these types of products.

Here's a pot stirrer, i have seen chiropractors do very similar effects with patients testing their balance or strength, and manipulating an unrelated spinal segment, and having changes 'instantly' following the manipulation. (example, manipulating cervical region, having improved balance in legs)
Anecdotal evidence never substantiates anything. Gotta have scientific evidence - formal studies or accounts of some sort. Not just hearsay accounts of success. Or random demonstrations.

it's just all marketing hype

Totally fake, the only thing they do is make your wallet slimmer.

Anecdotal evidence never substantiates anything. Gotta have scientific evidence - formal studies or accounts of some sort. Not just hearsay accounts of success. Or random demonstrations.

I believe there have been some studies done with the magnetic fields. I suspect the biggest problem is that they don't understand the biomechanism and can't really prove anything one way or the other.

Aaron :)

I believe there have been some studies done with the magnetic fields. I suspect the biggest problem is that they don't understand the biomechanism and can't really prove anything one way or the other.

Aaron :)

Anytime you're dealing with something modern science can't measure you're going to have the skeptics who "know" it doesn't work, the believers who "know" it does and a huge gap in between. Many of the skeptics who demand scientific proof before they'll believe something unconventional works are quite happily working in a field (conventional medicine) that uses that same sort of scientific proof for about 25% of what they do. Ignore that man behind the curtain!

but at what point is anecdotal substantiated? (obviously a double blind trial would be nice), but i have never seen one of those on these types of products.

Here's a pot stirrer, i have seen chiropractors do very similar effects with patients testing their balance or strength, and manipulating an unrelated spinal segment, and having changes 'instantly' following the manipulation. (example, manipulating cervical region, having improved balance in legs)

At not point is anecdotal statements evidence of anything other than the placebo effect.

You are not likely to see a double blind study of such trinkets... The manufacturers have no incentive since they can continue to sell their "product" to the gullible for huge profits.

Now, I do remember some actual research by a medical researcher in Rochester, NY in the late eighties who was conducting trials on the effect of electrical fields when treating bone breaks in folks with osteoporosis. The article was in a Scientific American, so it could be looked up. I contacted the researcher at the time and he sent me a copy of an article he had published in a peer reviewed medical journal. The electric fields used showed promise in a relatively limited way, and further they only showed such promise in a narrow range of power/frequency. A magnet is not going to generate a field that has any "frequency", it generates a fixed field (think dc instead of ac), and we all live in a fairly strong magnetic field -- it generated by the earth and also supplemented by all of the electronics and power grid.

Anytime you're dealing with something modern science can't measure you're going to have the skeptics who "know" it doesn't work, the believers who "know" it does and a huge gap in between. Many of the skeptics who demand scientific proof before they'll believe something unconventional works are quite happily working in a field (conventional medicine) that uses that same sort of scientific proof for about 25% of what they do. Ignore that man behind the curtain!

Its not that modern science isn't saying that the scientific method is the only way to know truth. Its that some promoters of certain apparatus are using scientific research papers to support their claims.

Does anyone here use them? I have seen magnetic bracelets/anklets in the past, and being a western trained physical therapist, i am obviously skeptical, however, i know people with carpal tunnel who couldn't even function able to return to work 100% with magnetic bracelets. (one of them IS a fellow PT)

How about these power balance bracelets? Apparently there is some hologram thing that interacts with your bodies energy field. I have always had an interest in non-traditional medicine/techniques, hence why i am in a non-surgical field :D.

Any reviews from cyclists? I saw the PB ad in triathlon magazine

It doesn't make linguistic sense let alone scientific sense. A hologram is a representational 3D picture. How is a picture going to interact with your body's anything? Are you Dorian Gray? You're probably better off looking at pictures of your loved ones. You may generate some endorphins to positive effect. Besides my astrologer said they're BS.

At not point is anecdotal statements evidence of anything other than the placebo effect.

You are not likely to see a double blind study of such trinkets... The manufacturers have no incentive since they can continue to sell their "product" to the gullible for huge profits.

Now, I do remember some actual research by a medical researcher in Rochester, NY in the late eighties who was conducting trials on the effect of electrical fields when treating bone breaks in folks with osteoporosis. The article was in a Scientific American, so it could be looked up. I contacted the researcher at the time and he sent me a copy of an article he had published in a peer reviewed medical journal. The electric fields used showed promise in a relatively limited way, and further they only showed such promise in a narrow range of power/frequency. A magnet is not going to generate a field that has any "frequency", it generates a fixed field (think dc instead of ac), and we all live in a fairly strong magnetic field -- it generated by the earth and also supplemented by all of the electronics and power grid.

"The Body Electric" (http://www.baar.com/beckerbk.htm) is the book I think you're refer to. It's a very interesting book, written by a MD who ended up becoming very discouraged by the emphasis on financial gain over healing in the US medical system.

Anecdotal evidence might not be good enough for some in cases like this, but it's strong enough for recommending things like cardiac stents and antidepressants for kids. Is that better than the blatant manipulation of research to procure the release of products like Vioxx?

I've worn a "Balance Bracelet" since 1984 to help with my growing arthritis pain. I wear it 24/7/365 to blunt the pain and for me it works.

Do I know how it works? Nope. Do I care that it might simply be the placebo effect? Nope. All I know is that I don't have near the level of pain that I do without it around my wrist so I don't "think it to death" trying to understand it. When I'm not in pain why the hell should I care?

Sure, I know millions say that devices like my bracelet are "snake oil" or "useless trash" but remember that if something gives a person relief from pain then it really is "medicine" in a very real sense. When the pain is gone only the stupid will ask why or how.........


Well said, I couldn't agree more.

I've tried one for back pain.It went around my neck.Everytime it worked,I passed out.I sent it back for a refund.

I've settled on the earth's magnetic field,works great.

Anecdotal evidence never substantiates anything. Gotta have scientific evidence - formal studies or accounts of some sort. Not just hearsay accounts of success. Or random demonstrations.

I'm not going to comment on the bracelet stuff since I dont know anything about it other than normal science says it should have no effect - however, being on the receiving end of having a disease with no cure and finding a treatment 'unnaceptable to science' that actually works to the point where I would gladly donate myself to science for testing purposes, I would say that if something cannot hurt much and *might* help it is probably always worth trying. I would be a cripple right now if all I did was listen to my doctor and stick to scientifically accepted facts and treatments.

Just sayin...

Sure, give those idiots your money...until the police finally track them down and they end up in jail for various counts of fraud and laundering. Like those "i renew" bracelets you see on t.v.

Are you guys seriously lending credit to this crap?

Make your own bracelet out of rubber bands and "feel" better about that instead...? Go ride your bike, that'll probably ease your pain better than flushing your money down the crapper.

Does anyone here use them? I have seen magnetic bracelets/anklets in the past, and being a western trained physical therapist, i am obviously skeptical, however, i know people with carpal tunnel who couldn't even function able to return to work 100% with magnetic bracelets. (one of them IS a fellow PT)

How about these power balance bracelets? Apparently there is some hologram thing that interacts with your bodies energy field. I have always had an interest in non-traditional medicine/techniques, hence why i am in a non-surgical field :D.

Any reviews from cyclists? I saw the PB ad in triathlon magazine

Snake oil.

http://www.powerbalance.com/powerbalance


WHAT IS POWER BALANCE?

Power Balance is Performance Technology designed to work with your body’s natural energy field. Founded by athletes, Power Balance is a favorite among elite athletes for whom balance, strength and flexibility are important.

•HOW DOES THE HOLOGRAM WORK?

Power Balance is based on the idea of optimizing the body’s natural energy flow, similar to concepts behind many Eastern philosophies. The hologram in Power Balance is designed to resonate with and respond to the natural energy field of the body.

What crap! This is meaningless gobbledygook "sciency" language!

Is there any other example of a hologram "resonating" with any energy field?

===============

http://skepticblog.org/2010/09/23/power-balance-magical-energy-bracelets-or-nonsense/

Anytime you're dealing with something modern science can't measure you're going to have the skeptics who "know" it doesn't work, the believers who "know" it does and a huge gap in between. Many of the skeptics who demand scientific proof before they'll believe something unconventional works are quite happily working in a field (conventional medicine) that uses that same sort of scientific proof for about 25% of what they do. Ignore that man behind the curtain!

How do you know something works without measuring something? Anecdotes are very unreliable.

It should be easy to measure how well a treatment works.

There should be some objective measurement that establishes that something works.


happily working in a field (conventional medicine) that uses that same sort of scientific proof for about 25% of what they do. Ignore that man behind the curtain!
No, a treatment should be objectively tested (using a double blind study) to make sure it actually works. Always.

Note that one doesn't need to know why/how a treatment works to establish that it does actually work.

I'm not going to comment on the bracelet stuff since I dont know anything about it other than normal science says it should have no effect - however, being on the receiving end of having a disease with no cure and finding a treatment 'unnaceptable to science' that actually works to the point where I would gladly donate myself to science for testing purposes, I would say that if something cannot hurt much and *might* help it is probably always worth trying. I would be a cripple right now if all I did was listen to my doctor and stick to scientifically accepted facts and treatments.

Just sayin...

You don't provide enough information for this story to be convincing to anybody. You are certainly free to keep things private but, as your post stands, it's useless.

How do you know something works? Anecdotes are very unreliable.

It should be easy to measure how well a treatment works.

Theoretically, it is easy to measure the effectiveness of a treatment, but when you're trying to measure something subjective like pain it becomes more complicated. Anecdotal evidence is often used to justify conventional medical treatments (off label use), people tend to question it less when insurance pays for the treatment and it's recommended by a md.

Acupuncture is a pretty classic example of the difficulty of measuring results. It shouldn't work beyond the placebo effect by modern western medical standards, yet more people have been treated using Acupuncture than any other type of care over the 4,000 - 5,000 years it's been around. That's an awful large and long term placebo effect

We'd all be better off if people asked questions about the health and medical care they receive, but too many people don't. That's one of the reasons we've got the most expensive and one of the least effective (we're 37th on the WHO ranking) medical care systems on the planet.

"The Body Electric" (http://www.baar.com/beckerbk.htm) is the book I think you're refer to. It's a very interesting book, written by a MD who ended up becoming very discouraged by the emphasis on financial gain over healing in the US medical system.
Note that that is a book he is selling.


Anecdotal evidence might not be good enough for some in cases like this,
Anecdotal evidence is never "good enough".


but it's strong enough for recommending things like cardiac stents and antidepressants for kids.
Really? Are you sure that stents are recommended only due to "anecdotes"?


but it's strong enough for recommending things like cardiac stents and antidepressants for kids. Is that better than the blatant manipulation of research to procure the release of products like Vioxx?
"Blatant manipulation" of research is badly done research. Badly done research is unacceptable. The real issue is that the "snake oil" salesmen are worse: they sell stuff without any research at all!

The argument of "financial gain" applies to everybody who sells stuff.

Theoretically, it is easy to measure the effectiveness of a treatment, but when you're trying to measure something subjective like pain it becomes more complicated.

The people who sell this snake oil rely on the subjectivity for their scams.

It still should be possible to run a double-blind study.


Anecdotal evidence is often used to justify conventional medical treatments (off label use), people tend to question it less when insurance pays for the treatment and it's recommended by a md.
The off-label treatment stuff is a complicated issue. It certainly can be abused.
You need to do a bit more work to be able to say that anecdotal evidence is "often used". "Off label" use is not usual at all.


Acupuncture is a pretty classic example of the difficulty of measuring results. It shouldn't work beyond the placebo effect by modern western medical standards, yet more people have been treated using Acupuncture than any other type of care over the 4,000 - 5,000 years it's been around. That's an awful large and long term placebo effect.
There are no good studies that show acupuncture works. The "theory" behind it is clearly nonsense.


We'd all be better off if people asked questions about the health and medical care they receive, but too many people don't.
This is very true (it's also obvious). But why do people not ask questions about the snake oil?

Anecdotal evidence is sufficient? Really?

My uncle is in an institution in Wisconsin. He's absolutely convinced that Barbara Mandrel is his nurse and that Johnny Paycheck visits him every afternoon. I suppose, from his account of things, it must be true.

...

Acupuncture is a pretty classic example of the difficulty of measuring results. It shouldn't work beyond the placebo effect by modern western medical standards, yet more people have been treated using Acupuncture than any other type of care over the 4,000 - 5,000 years it's been around. That's an awful large and long term placebo effect

Huh? That's simply two/three completely unrelated statements strung together:

1. It's hard to measure
2. It's been around a long time
3. The effect is too big to be a placebo (implied)

That third statement in no way follows from the first two. You might as well say:

1. I'm hungry
2. It's dark out.
3. My dog barked.


We'd all be better off if people asked questions about the health and medical care they receive, but too many people don't. That's one of the reasons we've got the most expensive and one of the least effective (we're 37th on the WHO ranking) medical care systems on the planet.

And how much of that is diet and lifestyle? I always seem to hear about how good Cuba's medical system is, but I'd be any population would be really healthy when they're so poor they can only afford to have 1,200 calories a day and have to walk everywhere because the average age of the few available automobiles is pushing the better of a century - literally.

Theoretically, it is easy to measure the effectiveness of a treatment, but when you're trying to measure something subjective like pain it becomes more complicated. Anecdotal evidence is often used to justify conventional medical treatments (off label use), people tend to question it less when insurance pays for the treatment and it's recommended by a md.

Acupuncture is a pretty classic example of the difficulty of measuring results. It shouldn't work beyond the placebo effect by modern western medical standards, yet more people have been treated using Acupuncture than any other type of care over the 4,000 - 5,000 years it's been around. That's an awful large and long term placebo effect

We'd all be better off if people asked questions about the health and medical care they receive, but too many people don't. That's one of the reasons we've got the most expensive and one of the least effective (we're 37th on the WHO ranking) medical care systems on the planet.

there are countless ways to measure pain. They do it all the time in clinical trials and even in mice. Pain can be and is measured.

You don't provide enough information for this story to be convincing to anybody. You are certainly free to keep things private but, as your post stands, it's useless.

?

My point was just to say that people with issues that are unresolvable through normal means are often driven to try 'weird' things just because the reward might be worth the risk - in my case it paid off handsomely, but I agree that MOST if not all wierd ideas out there are probably junk.
what works 'for me' is more important than 'what should work' or 'knowing why' , etc. Results are more important than anything else to someone with a problem.

I could go into my stuff but thats quite OT and I think I have spelled it out in a few other threads - you can always PM me if you are curious.

We'd all be better off if people asked questions about the health and medical care they receive, but too many people don't. That's one of the reasons we've got the most expensive and one of the least effective (we're 37th on the WHO ranking) medical care systems on the planet.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Spectacular fail here!

China is 144th!

The problem isn't that the US isn't using enough snake oil!

?

My point was just to say that people with issues that are unresolvable through normal means are often driven to try 'weird' things just because the reward might be worth the risk - in my case it paid off handsomely, but I agree that MOST if not all wierd ideas out there are probably junk.
what works 'for me' is more important than 'what should work' or 'knowing why' , etc. Results are more important than anything else to someone with a problem.

But it's too vague a "story" for people to evaluate.

People are, understandably, driven to try "weird" things out of desperation. And snake oil salesmen are there to scam them.

This is key. And in many cases the the "weird" thing isn't what "works".

Keep in mind that one doesn't have to know why/how something works. One does need an objective measure (proof) that something actually works.

nah - the problem with health care is that its a business. The incentives are all wrong. If doctors only got paid when their patients were healthy things would be quite different.

nah - the problem with health care is that its a business. The incentives are all wrong. If doctors only got paid when their patients were healthy things would be quite different.
Selling snake oil is a business too! And if the standards in health care are not sufficient, the standards for snake oil are non-existent!

that is correct - the standards for snake oil are much, much lower :D Basically telling people what they want to hear.

For explanation I will include a longer diatribe to explain what I was getting at above.



OK -
I have a rare and crippling/painful form of arthritis called Ankylosing Spondylitis. I have a rather bad case of it and
the progression of the disease would eventually cause me to probablt need hips/knees replaced as well as perhaps an
ankle, AND destroy most of the vertebrae in my back, eventually fusing into one solid but very brittle bone. Nasty.
Doc's options are only to supress the pain and supress the immune system, while telling me that the drugs used will
cause liver damage and weaken my defenses against other diseases and cancer. Nice. Also told that exercise is a must.
*yay cycling*
This was four odd years ago. So I found a support group online and discovered that there are hundreds of people all
over the world who had been using a dietary treatment accidentaly discovered by a British doctor. I tried the treatment,
and after a few months of tweaking it started getting results. Now, as long as I keep my diet within a very narrow range,
all meats and a few fruits, I can almost forget I have the disease, and I take no medication at all.
The problem with the diet is that it doesnt seem to work for everyone, AND there is no accepted reason for it to work. In
fact, all research we could find was done to try and DISPROVE all the ideas people had about why the diet worked. The
researchers weren't interested in actually testing the diet, they simply wanted to show that it couldnt work according to all
their current knowledge. So essentially now there are thousands of people with this disease who refuse to try the treatment
simply because they believe it cannot work. On top of that doctors arent really allowed to discuss it because noone has tried
to get a funded study together through the FDA and gotten it labeled an accepted treatment. Since doctors have malpractice
insurance they arent allowed to suggest things outside of FDA approved treatments or they are at risk for lawsuit or losing
their license.
So there is a case where not only is 'objective measuring standards' difficult and subjective (most of us have had to alter
the diet to get it to work, many of us in different ways - go figure that one out), but the research has all been aimed at
steering our beliefs away from the diet as a valid treatment.
If I was not a more 'probabilistic believer' - as in I refuse to believe that something is 100% right or wrong, then I would
never have given anything a chance. As it is, if something is probably wrong, but remains untried subjectively, then as
long as it is cheap and safe, for someone who is hurting the risk may be worth the reward. I tried ten or more stupid ideas
until this one worked.
Now I'm busting my ass on the bike so I can race for the first time next year. Stubborness rocks.

that is correct - the standards for snake oil are much, much lower :D Basically telling people what they want to hear.

For explanation I will include a longer diatribe to explain what I was getting at above.

That gives a better picture of what you are talking about. I'd still need more information to treat this story as any real support for a position.

Anyway, it's possible that there is some sense to this story of yours (I don't know). Hopefully, it's based on some sort of real scientific knowledge.

Regardless, tiny mylar "holograms" in a rubber bracelet based on silly notions of "resonance", etc, doesn't pass the smell test.