Advocacy & Safety - fault?

So, the other morning it's pouring. I'm on my commute and it's dark too. Although I don't run into any problems, I swear, most drivers do not adjust their driving for conditions in fact, I think many drivers drive worse. I think they speed up because they want to get their drive over faster.

Anyway, later that day someone comes up to me and says he had a hard time seeing me when they passed me on his way to work.

"If it wasn't for your light, I wouldn't have seen you"

"But you saw my light through, right?"

"Yeah, but you should be careful. You're right in the middle of the road."

So here's the deal. Conditions are worse than usual and I'm seen, but not as well as some would like.

Not only do I have lights, but I wear a high-vis yellow rain coat with several reflective strips on various areas of it. My rain pants are yellow and my booties have reflective strips up the back of them.

I suppose I always could add even more reflective strips and 16 more lights, but at what point is it the fault of the cyclist that a driver is having a hard time noticing a lit up, brightly dressed cyclist riding under street lights in front of a vehicle?

And what is the greater obligation? To be noticed, or to notice?

I think many drivers drive worse. I think they speed up because they want to get their drive over faster.

QFT

But to anwser your question from what I know it is dependent upon where you are and local laws. Where I live between Dusk and down or during overcast days both pedals must have reflectors and/or reflective ankle bands, and you must have a rear tail light and front headlight. If you fail to do this nd you are hit during those times you are at fault (Or atleast the car is not at fault).

In your case it sounds like you have exceeded that law and are fully within your rights but I don't know your area. Regardless it sounds like you were entirely in the right. I think we should all get floodlights and hi-beams to make sure drivers can never say "I didn't see you!"

In my opinion accidents rarely (though it does happen) happen unless both parties have committed some act of negligence. This is why they are relatively rare.

I believe a person's first obligation is self-preservation, therefore I would place the greater personal burden on being noticed. Of course, that doesn't in anyway diminish the other persons obligation to be as observant as practicable.

It sounds like your coworker was simply saying they didn't see you as soon as they would have liked; ie, not as much reaction time as they would like. The right to ride in the middle of the lane doesn't mean the other person isn't going to be surprised to see you there. The simple fact is that cyclists are relatively rare in general and really rare in such poor weather conditions. Surprise at encountering a cyclist in such conditions is a perfectly normal response.

I believe a drivers sight is impaired in the rain. Couple that with a lack of compensation for that impairment and risks increase.

This was one of the first heavy rain Mondays of the season. It followed a heavy rain week-end that featured many motorist/pedestrian collisions.

Check your batteries, maybe your bulbs are burning dimly.

Rider safety makes being seen the greater obligation.

Providing you have met the legal obligation of being seen, the obligation is way higher for others to pay attention. If others were not seeing you with enough reaction time due to weather, it is their obligation to adjust their speed and stop driving too fast for conditions (which is considered speeding here, regardless of the speed limit. Basic Speed Law).

Now, personally, it's a good idea to go above and beyond your legal obligation for self-preservation (which it sounds you've more than surpassed). At that point, you've met your obligations, and others need to meet theirs as well.

This example points out again why rear lights are often so much better than the minimalist reflectors that come with most bikes and even larger reflectors. In the dark in the rain, a blinky is much more likely to get noticed.

I am especially frustrated with the failure rate of several different rear lamps I've owned. Sometimes an intermittent connection in a rechargeable battery or cable (NiteRider) turns off my rear lamp during a ride. Sometimes rain enters the blinky housing and shorts it out. Sometimes a pothole bounce causes the cover to pop off and spill the batteries, or even snaps the plastic mount clean off.

I am increasingly inclined to go with two rear lamps, rather than just one, especially when in a dark rain. That is in addition to large rear reflectors, my current failsafe.

But in answer to the OP's question, whenever I find myself surprised by a low-visibility road user such as a pedestrian in the dark, I am reminded that I must take care to drive slowly enough to respond to such users and to pay especially close attention in low visibility conditions. Sure, I wish other users would maximize their visibility, but I do not imagine myself striking them when they are traveling lawfully; rather, I am concerned about what those "other drivers" might fail to do.

A driver on a four lane road at sunrise once pulled up to me at a signal and told me that I was hard to see, and that I needed to be careful. I thanked her for her concern but pointed out that she did see me and that it was her responsibility to drive within her sight distance and pay attention. I do try to avoid riding directly into a harsh sunrise or sunset, but I am still surprised at the number of drivers who do not slow down when visibility is compromised.

Check your batteries, maybe your bulbs are burning dimly.

Rider safety makes being seen the greater obligation.

Yup. They're good. The light is just as bright when I first bought it. Back when everyone was amazed at how visible these new blinkies are.

Funny how now, I hear people say they run more than one to be seen better.

Providing you have met the legal obligation of being seen, the obligation is way higher for others to pay attention. If others were not seeing you with enough reaction time due to weather, it is their obligation to adjust their speed and stop driving too fast for conditions (which is considered speeding here, regardless of the speed limit. Basic Speed Law).

Now, personally, it's a good idea to go above and beyond your legal obligation for self-preservation (which it sounds you've more than surpassed). At that point, you've met your obligations, and others need to meet theirs as well.

This is how I see it. I've done all that is reasonably possible and I'm hearing someone say because they didn't notice something in compromised conditions, somehow I should do something about it.

Maybe I should track the guy down and ask if he thought if he should slow down and watch a little more carefully in conditions such as we had the other morning

I wonder if their windshield is clean (inside and out) and more importantly wiper blades not deteriorated.

What rear lights do you use?

All you need is a red reflector ;)

Sometimes people just want to be helpful and do care, even if it may come across 'the wrong way'

...whenever I find myself surprised by a low-visibility road user such as a pedestrian in the dark, I am reminded that I must take care to drive slowly enough to respond to such users and to pay especially close attention in low visibility conditions. Sure, I wish other users would maximize their visibility, but I do not imagine myself striking them when they are traveling lawfully; rather, I am concerned about what those "other drivers" might fail to do.

this speaks to the spike in motorist/pedestrian collisions on dark, rainy, winter nights. Too many people don't take the extra precaution needed so we end up with increased collisions


A driver on a four lane road at sunrise once pulled up to me at a signal and told me that I was hard to see, and that I needed to be careful. I thanked her for her concern but pointed out that she did see me and that it was her responsibility to drive within her sight distance and pay attention. I do try to avoid riding directly into a harsh sunrise or sunset, but I am still surprised at the number of drivers who do not slow down when visibility is compromised.

During the summer when my wife and I are driving along, it's common to see ninja cyclists after sunset. My wife often gets upset when we come up on them from behind. She says they're invisible BUT some (most, actually) do have those mandated reflectors built into the pedals and they ARE visible.

Clearly, having lights would be better, but I do see them if they have these pedals. If they don't have them, it'd be much worse.

I wonder if their windshield is clean (inside and out) and more importantly wiper blades not deteriorated.

What rear lights do you use?

All you need is a red reflector ;)

Sometimes people just want to be helpful and do care, even if it may come across 'the wrong way'

I think there is a genuine concern there, but they just can't see that maybe their vision is compromised and to suggest so might be offensive.

I use one of those old Vista Lites (I've had it forever).

I have a related issue with the last 1/2 mile or so of my commute. In the morning, I ride directly into the sun, even up a little hill, and it is very hard to see. I fully expect someone to pull up next to me at a light one of these days, set down their mocha and their cell phone, and tell me they can't see me.

Preparing for it now will help me from going ballistic when it happens...

You were doing what most would to stay visible, above and beyond what's mandated by law, so the onus is on the driver to see you.

However.

Motorists, already not the best in the world where it comes to cyclist safety... or their own, get worse when it rains. Don't know why, but people take bigger chances in the rain than I think they would otherwise. Just a personal observation on my end, not to be confused with real data.

But clearly your cow-orker was concerned enough for your safety to say something. Sure, take him/her to task for his/her comment--you're absolutely right that the responsibility is on them--but for everyone like that, there's plenty of drivers who might voice the same thing if they knew you. Meaning--there's probably plenty of other drivers who also don't see you with your current visibility setup.

Get more visible with more lights. You shouldn't have to, but that cow-orker is the universe telling you that you are not noticeable enough with your current setup for your riding style.

Maybe put a bright light or SOLAS grade reflective material on the back of your helmet... :D

This is a video I made a while back in very heavy rain at 2:30pm. Even the the lights on the motor vehicles are their most noticeable part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSOHb0lc69s

You were doing what most would to stay visible, above and beyond what's mandated by law, so the onus is on the driver to see you.

However.

Motorists, already not the best in the world where it comes to cyclist safety... or their own, get worse when it rains. Don't know why, but people take bigger chances in the rain than I think they would otherwise. Just a personal observation on my end, not to be confused with real data.

But clearly your cow-orker was concerned enough for your safety to say something. Sure, take him/her to task for his/her comment--you're absolutely right that the responsibility is on them--but for everyone like that, there's plenty of drivers who might voice the same thing if they knew you. Meaning--there's probably plenty of other drivers who also don't see you with your current visibility setup.

Get more visible with more lights. You shouldn't have to, but that cow-orker is the universe telling you that you are not noticeable enough with your current setup for your riding style.

Maybe put a bright light or SOLAS grade reflective material on the back of your helmet... :D

I agree that the concern is coming from good intention, however, I've had other co-workers at other times tell me how well lit I am.

It seems the issue is the conditions of the day. I guess what a good move would be is, on dark mornings with heavy rain, I could augment what I already have.

...Maybe put a bright light or SOLAS grade reflective material on the back of your helmet... :D

before I took it off, I used to put blinkies on the helmet...

IMO, there is an equal obligation to see and to be seen; no driver has the right to drive beyond what they can see and avoid, in the way of obstacles.

BUT...

Since it's YOUR pedaling ass on the line here, the greater obligation -- to YOURSELF, to keep yourself ALIVE and functional -- falls to you. If I could carry the weight and bulk, I'd have railroad crossing flashers on the back of my bike!!!!

This is a video I made a while back in very heavy rain at 2:30pm. Even the the lights on the motor vehicles are their most noticeable part.


Wow, it looks like there was quite a bit of standing water on the right side of the right lane. Nice video.

There is some responsibility on both ends (even cars have to have working rear lights) it's probably more on the observer than the observed.

For instance last weekend sunday night the rain was so bad i could barely see the lane markings. I thought "I shouldn't be out driving in this" visibility was so poor. However "pulling over" would have meant finding a motel in another state that would take us and my 2 dogs, and then try to get back home monday morning (assuming the rain was lighter) before work. Really if safety were the top priority I would have done that but I didn't. If I did hit someone, then it probably would have been all my fault, since I was knowingly driving under such poor visibility conditions. Now what the law would say I have no idea.

And so even if it's mostly on the observer to watch (cars watch for us, we watch for peds) there is some responsibility on us too. Because we know cars WILL be out in those conditions. Truck drivers can't just refuse to work because there is heavy rain, they'd lose their jobs. Even if that were the right thing to do.

I added a reflective vest, and feel more visible. But I have been thinking of upgrading from the PB to the Dinotte for this very reason. I need to make sure people see me. Driving in that rain last week taught me that only bright lights can be seen under certain conditions.

Also one thing: it seems to me all our yellow is pretty worthless under low visibility conditions even at normal night. And only lights or reflectors can be seen. That's what it looks like to me when I'm driving or walking and see bikers pass by. Yellow is more of a daytime visibility component.

So, the other morning it's pouring. I'm on my commute and it's dark too. Although I don't run into any problems, I swear, most drivers do not adjust their driving for conditions in fact, I think many drivers drive worse. I think they speed up because they want to get their drive over faster.

Anyway, later that day someone comes up to me and says he had a hard time seeing me when they passed me on his way to work.

"If it wasn't for your light, I wouldn't have seen you"

"But you saw my light through, right?"

"Yeah, but you should be careful. You're right in the middle of the road."

So here's the deal. Conditions are worse than usual and I'm seen, but not as well as some would like.

Not only do I have lights, but I wear a high-vis yellow rain coat with several reflective strips on various areas of it. My rain pants are yellow and my booties have reflective strips up the back of them.

I suppose I always could add even more reflective strips and 16 more lights, but at what point is it the fault of the cyclist that a driver is having a hard time noticing a lit up, brightly dressed cyclist riding under street lights in front of a vehicle?

And what is the greater obligation? To be noticed, or to notice?

Take the lane, outright!!!:mad:

I learned this three years ago, when I was basically run off the road by a motorist who was crowding my back tire, when I was on at two-lane blacktop. I moved to let her pass. But instead, she ran me off the road. Unless a motorist is a cyclist themselves, they don't care. The cops don't even care!!!:mad: There were two responding police officers, one city and one county. The woman had the audacity to make a bold face lie to the police officers, claiming she didn't see me!!!!:mad: When only moments before the accident, I had been taking the lane!!!!!

... it seems to me all our yellow is pretty worthless under low visibility conditions even at normal night. And only lights or reflectors can be seen. That's what it looks like to me when I'm driving or walking and see bikers pass by. Yellow is more of a daytime visibility component.

on those early morning commutes in the summer, I'll head out without the coat and my wife worries. She wants me to put on my reflective ankle bands.

I ask her about driving in black cars at night. What makes them safe after dark. Well it's lights of course. Lights make one visible in the dark. Reflective material helps, but lights are better.

It's no problem to put on the bands and it makes her feel better.

This is a video I made a while back in very heavy rain at 2:30pm. Even the the lights on the motor vehicles are their most noticeable part.

Could you imagine if a bikes blinkies were the size of a cars lights? That'd be something.

As it is, I think a blinky is pretty good, better than a steady light and maybe better than the bigger and dual vehicle rear lights.

Then again, the fact that a bike is so much smaller than a car or truck makes it less noticeable than a motor vehicle or is the lack of threat from a bike make it less of a concern?

each time I have been hit by either a car or bike, and I was able to talk to the offending driver/biker, I asked, couldn't you see me?

All of them said, yes.

Maybe being seen is over-rated

Notice too how (in non night) conditions the brighter colored cars show up much better than the dark ones when against the dark background of the trees.

I always use a solid or blinking (depending on ambient light levels) under-saddle light and a head mounted blinkie when dark or dim, but not full sunlight.

This video is of the same commute a bit later. Starts on same 45mph arterial road (note traffic speed is now higher) and then at 0:45 I turn onto a collector street into an active school zone. There are more examples of vehicles without lights on and they nearly disappear in some cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCkyCUaY0Eg

Would this (http://www.amazon.com/FoxFire-Commuter-Tail-Light-LEDS/dp/B0034JTDRA/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1IVEEEREVHDO6&colid=2AVA6ICSTO2IZ) help?

He saw you, because of your light. I think his problem is that his brain doesn't know "single light, especially if flashing" means bicyclist. He probably saw the light and thought "what the heck is up there?"

Eventually he'll learn they mean bicyclist and won't think twice about it.

Also, this is just one more piece of evidence, for me, that reflective jackets are silly if your blinky is running.

Also, this is just one more piece of evidence, for me, that reflective jackets are silly if your blinky is running.
When raining at night if your blinkie is running well. Always nice to have multiple backups.
(I have never worn a retro-reflective clothing)

I am especially frustrated with the failure rate of several different rear lamps I've owned. Sometimes an intermittent connection in a rechargeable battery or cable (NiteRider) turns off my rear lamp during a ride.



Super flashes handle this properly. I'm shocked at how many of those style lights don't, it's pathetic. In my opinion, they're gonna get sued and they're gonna lose and rightfully so. Also, light and motion has an amazing new tail light if you have the $100 for it.

When raining at night if your blinkie is running well. Always nice to have multiple backups.
(I have never worn a retro-reflective clothing)

Rechargeable batteries allow you to keep your batteries charged far past the decline point at all times. Also, non-alkaline batteries maintain voltage much much better. This is why I like lights like the superflash: I can put rechargeables in it and top them off every now and then.

I usually do use two blinkies cause I don't trust them. Especially when it's 0 farenheit.


I do see people's reflective stuff on the bike, but I see their lights long before that. And, really, I see riders (whose reflectors are missing or so poorly aimed they don't show up) way before I come upon them. There's absolutely no reason to miss a slow bicyclist, or pedestrian, on the same street as you. Dark, cloudy, rainy, I don't care: I can see them. That doesn't mean they shouldn't follow the law, which makes it downright easy to see them, but "I didn't see him" should be seen as an absolute confession of fault in my opinion.

I've never had either of my two PBSF's fail.
The one I used to have under saddle has gotten very wet/grimy over the years (no fenders and rides like videos above) and the switch is now hard to activate, but once on it stay on. I just changed from it to a Radbot 1000 as it has a brighter steady on than the PBSF.

I also only use rechargable batteries and keep them topped off. The other benefit of this is there is never a need to decide if it is worth 'wasting' battery juice, just put the light on.

He saw you, because of your light. I think his problem is that his brain doesn't know "single light, especially if flashing" means bicyclist...

I'm kinda thinking, he's thinking,

"What's a cyclist doing out there in this weather? Hey. I know that guy! He rides to work all the time. Doesn't he know it's dangerous out there and a driver can hit him? I better have a talk with him later"

I've done all that is reasonably possible...


I use one of those old Vista Lites (I've had it forever).

Those two statements are contradictory.

On dark mornings with heavy rain, yes, a bicyclist should enhance their visibility over demanding the other drivers pay better attention. That's a great goal to shoot for and all, but how much are bicyclists in control of that portion of the riding experience?

It isn't 1989 anymore, the Vistalite was once a standout light, now its pales in comparison. I'd say get a brighter light or two, and likely a much better one for the front if you're riding year round in Vancouver.

I wouldn't expect the motorists to start slowing down anytime soon, maybe investing in couple of superflashes or similar might put you and the motorists at greater ease on those dark, stormy mornings.

It doesn't matter who's at fault. If a car hits you, chances are they will do more damage to you than you to them so BE SAFE out there. That's my general rule. :)

Also, I've been in a situation where I was driving my car in HEAVY rain at night and almost pulled out in front of a cyclist because I could barely see his blinky light. Sometimes we are just hard to see. Get the best lights you can find.

I suppose I always could add even more reflective strips and 16 more lights, but at what point is it the fault of the cyclist that a driver is having a hard time noticing a lit up, brightly dressed cyclist riding under street lights in front of a vehicle?

And what is the greater obligation? To be noticed, or to notice?

You already know the limitations of reflective surfaces. And when it comes to blinkies, I think people underestimate the effect of the blinkie's surface area. Anyway, if you're going from one blinkie to two. I think that there is a significant improvement; especially if the first light is small. But there are diminishing returns. If it matters, I use three on my commuter including my helmet.

As for obligation ... I don't think it is a well formulated question. That is, there are several "obligations" involved here. For instance, I think that an individual has an obligation to keep themselves healthy and in good working order if they have dependents. But a person also has an obligation to do certain things as a good citizen as well as legal obligations (which are not necessarily the same). If a person is approaching from the rear, that person has a reasonable legal obligation (and more) to notice you. But a priori, when you decide to get onto the bike, you have the obligation to take reasonable precautions that include being visible. Comparing the two is hard, IMO, since the dimensionality of it is high and one is conditioned on the other.

I use the older version of these: http://www.flarealert.com

I want to get the new ones, the 1/2 watt version says its 1.5x times brighter then my current version. But the beauty seems to be in the 1 watt model. 30+ hrs flash on 4 AA batteries. Also provides good sideways light.

How do you connect that Flare Alert Beacon to your bike?

A couple turns of electrical tape around the base with 2 zip ties snuck underneath the tape. They then zip onto the saddle rails or the end of a rack. I was thinking of making a bracket, but this works very well. If you aren't concerned about it easily walking off, a metal plate is all you need to mount, the magnets are strong and should hold them in place. A guy in a review on the site said he left them on his truck for 2 days and they stayed in place.

The unit itself has a battery compartment and seals on its door, never had an issue in rain. Mine has a pretty quick flash, I think that good for people to be able to judge your speed. Right now I just run one on flash.

If you have just one old blinkie, it isn't enough. I have two Superflashes, and a third blinkie. The Superflashes are on my seat stays and the third blinkie is on my rear rack. I also use a 350 lumen white flashing headlight on the front.

. . . And what is the greater obligation? To be noticed, or to notice?

What's more important in breathing, inhaling or exhaling?

If you have just one old blinkie, it isn't enough...

I get the part that one can always get brighter. There are products out there that are so bright, they can be counter-productive but I'm wondering if that's the issue.

I'm thinking, I'm not sure it is.

if you want good daytime visibility in foul weather but are still running a vistalite, I'm pretty sure it is.

if you want good daytime visibility in foul weather but are still running a vistalite, I'm pretty sure it is.


"If it wasn't for your light, I wouldn't have seen you"

really?

yes.

Funny how now, I hear people say they run more than one to be seen better.Personally, I run more than one in case one stops working.

If my headlight cuts out, I'll notice immediately. If my taillight cuts out, I'm not likely to notice until I arrive at my destination and go to turn it off.

He saw you, because of your light. I think his problem is that his brain doesn't know "single light, especially if flashing" means bicyclist. He probably saw the light and thought "what the heck is up there?"

Eventually he'll learn they mean bicyclist and won't think twice about it.

Also, this is just one more piece of evidence, for me, that reflective jackets are silly if your blinky is running.

The problem with a flashing light (especially when it is the only light) is that from a drivers perspective it can seem like a distant light viewed through something like a fence. When you have a fixed light in the distance and something like a fence that had periodic obstructions, as you move the distant light will appear to blink. I came upon another cyclist the other morning while riding, and all they had was a rear blinking light. I was surprised when I got close enough to realize it was a cyclists since my brain was interpreting the blinking light as a fixed light/flash and that makes the light appear much further away...

If the cyclists had a second solid light I would have known much sooner. If they had been wearing either reflective or light colored clothing they wouldn't have surprised me. Considering our speed differential was only a couple of miles per hour, surprising me wasn't an issue, but if I had been driving our speed differential would have been a fair bit higher. The surprise would have left me with much less time to avoid them.

In response to noisebeam's video in post #25, it's interesting, the box truck kicking up all the spray, no lights. The black car that's hard to see in the rain, no lights. Everybody else has their lights on. Well done drivers.

Yes as far as I know, solid lights are better to estimate your distance from it.

Also apparently drunk drivers can become fixated on a blinking light and drive towards it?

I am not familiar with the vista light, but if it is late 80s vintage and with Bek's knowledge of it vs. his often recommended BBSF I would say that it is probably not bright enough for dark rainy conditions.

Personally I find the PBSF to be just about the minimum I would use for night, stormy or other lower visibility conditions.

I would recommend trying a PBSF or the brighter Radbot 1000. Even better put the radbot on your bike and clip a PBSF to the back of your hat.

Also apparently drunk drivers can become fixated on a blinking light and drive towards it?The jury is still out on this (and it may never come back), and the issue may be more complicated than that. Either way, there's more details on the issue at
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/motheffect.html .