"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Racing Wheelset: Aluminum or Brass nipples?

Alright, the title is almost self-explanatory, but I'm curious to hear what some people from the race forum have to say about this.

I'm building up myself a race wheelset and it's not going to be anything special. I scored a Mavic 280, 330 rim pair, both 28hole. They're incredibly light rims (those numbers pertain to the weight) and I'm going to build them up with some Velocity Pro Road hubs (rear is hi-low flange, they aren't available to unsponsored teams). I have a ton of quality double butted spokes in varying lengths, so I'm set there.

But what I have been able to come up with an answer to this question: brass nipples or alloy nipples? People have been arguing for years that alloy nipples suck because they need to be replaced in 6 months if you ever want to true the wheels. Is there any truth to this fact? I mean, can't I just build the wheels with spoke prep or some other oil in order to keep everything from seizing up?

Is weight savings really one of the only reasons to be using aluminum nipples? What do you guys use? Do you true and service your own wheels? How does that go if using aluminum nipples?

Does it really actually matter at all?

I'm just looking for some basic guidance here. Thanks for any and all help!

I'm fine with aluminum nipples. Use a quality spoke wrench, make sure its seated fully before you torque on it.
I haven't had a problem with aluminum nipples seizing on the spokes, even on the wheels I use on my rain bike. But some light oil would take care of that.

So, really, the benefit that's proposed with alloy nipples is just a weight savings?

Do most contemporary modern racers use alloy nipples in their wheels?

Brass nipples.

The weight savings of aluminum nipples are not worth the possibility of them rounding off. They don't need to be replaced every six months, but I've rounded off enough of them to hate them. If you're careful, they won't round off, but I'd rather not worry about it.

Aluminum works fine, but use a wrench like the spokey spoke wrench (http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=17751) that grabs three sides of the nipple to wrench on it. Don't use the cheap two sided wrenches. Make sure the nipples are anodized, and use some sort of lubrication or spoke prep when you build the wheel (I dip the spoke threads in vegetable oil; lubricates when building, then dries into a kind of sticky consistency so the spokes don't loosen over time). That'll keep them from binding up on the threads.

FWIW, I have rounded off plenty of brass nipples as well. I think it has more to do with the spoke wrench you use than the material of the nipple.

So, really, the benefit that's proposed with alloy nipples is just a weight savings?

Do most contemporary modern racers use alloy nipples in their wheels?

Just weight savings. In every other aspect, brass nipples are superior to aluminum.

Well, let's see here.

I have two wheels, 28hole each. Brass nipples, as advertised by DT are a gram each. Alloy nipples - .31grams each.

28hx2=56hole wheelset.

56x1=56grams for a brass-nippled set.

56x.31~18grams for an alloy-nippled set.

56-18=38grams weight savings.

38grams~0.08pounds of rotating weight.

Is this really that big of a difference?

What do you guys think I should do?

Well on a 28 hole wheelset - you are not necessarily that worried about weight?

38 grams is 38 grams at the edge of the wheel.

if you are worried about weight why not go fewer spokes - lighter spokes (Sapim Laser) AND alloy nipples?

how heavy are you? At 175 I break al nipples like they're going out of style, but brass holds up.

Yeah, I hate Al nipples...

Atleast go brass on the rear drive side.

I weigh 125pounds.

Fatty.

Yeah, I hate Al nipples...

Atleast go brass on the rear drive side.

exactly. A lot of deep dish wheels are configured this way. Some have alloy front & brass rear

prety sure my ZIPPS have alloys but I could be wrong. I have used them for 3 years without touching the spokes.

exactly. A lot of deep dish wheels are configured this way. Some have alloy front & brass rear

Deep dish, huh?

say it three times, and richinperoria will show up;)

What do you guys think I should do?

Use marine antiseize on the threads and eyelets and they'll turn like butter 10 years later. If you live and ride in a very corrosive environment, brass might make sense.

say it three times, and richinperoria will show up;)

Nom nom nom!

OK, I guess my actual question here is: is .08pounds of rotating weight really going to make that much of a difference for a 125pound, 5' 8" 16 year old racing in cat 3's? I honestly don't think it'll be that big of a deal, but if there's a definite bonus or noticeable difference with that weight reduction I'm really all ears.

Can't get purple anodized brass nipples. End of story.



But really: no, there is no difference you are going to feel. Go brass. Unless you need colors, in which case go aluminum. Either way, you will forget which you chose for a few years if the wheels are properly built.

DRietz, why are you getting 28 hole wheels as a 125 # rider

Go for the alloys and lose some spokes. at 125#, I'd get the lightest wheels you can.

This doesn't sound like a blingy wheelset in general. Just get 28F/32R with brass nipples and enjoy a wheelset that'll take a pounding. Heck, you could probably throw it on a cross bike if you wanted.

GEL280s are not strong rims. 28H should be okay. At 140 I was bending them left and right, 28 and 32H, and I'm pretty easy on wheels.

I'd go alloy front and non-drive rear. Do brass on drive side so you can tension more.

Don't use too short a spoke - that'll make it easier to pop the heads off the nipples.

You'll love the wheels. I still have a GEL280, a Record Crono (285g claimed), FiR Isidis (330g claimed), some others, all slightly not good. I figure they'd be good for the track bike. Super fast wind up.

Brass all around for me. I'm conservative like that though.

This doesn't sound like a blingy wheelset in general. Just get 28F/32R with brass nipples and enjoy a wheelset that'll take a pounding. Heck, you could probably throw it on a cross bike if you wanted.

Oh I totally didn't read which rims you were using...

Try not using them on a cross bike lol.

You might as well use brass though if the rims are going to need to be trued every now and then. With rims that light, it's a possibility?

Why am I not going for wheels as light as I can? I'm poor. I got these rims for free, have a sponsorship from Velocity for hubs, and own a small surplus DT db spokes.

The 330 is going to be the rear. I'm using 28hole wheels because I have no other rims. If someone has a smaller count front, I'd be all for it, but that's another story.

Furthermore, I don't try to stay at 125. It's just hard for me to gain weight with my current amount of ride time.

Aki, I'm a slight bit confused by your statement. You said that the 280's flex easy enough, were slightly not good, but I'll love 'em. :D

OK, I guess my actual question here is: is .08pounds of rotating weight really going to make that much of a difference for a 125pound, 5' 8" 16 year old racing in cat 3's? I honestly don't think it'll be that big of a deal, but if there's a definite bonus or noticeable difference with that weight reduction I'm really all ears.

If you want to play that game you'll end up riding a 21 lb steel framed bike with Tiagra...

Aki, I'm a slight bit confused by your statement. You said that the 280's flex easy enough, were slightly not good, but I'll love 'em. :D

lol.

I bent them, not flexed them. Potholes, ran over one with car (my friend backed up instead of forward), etc. They are kind of flexy too, but that's okay.

The 280s are kind of wide I think. Or maybe just wide-seeming.

My own personal rims are all not okay - typically a bad spot on the sidewall so I get the "thump thump thump" when I brake. But otherwise fine, so good for track. I crashed them all, bent them all a little. This was back in my 5 years of crashing in races - 1988-1992. I went through a lot of wheels back then.

Light rims, light where it counts (outer bit of wheel), very responsive. Accelerates hard until about 40 mph, then you hit an aero wall. I couldn't bear to throw out even the thumpy rims once Mavic/Campy discontinued their 280-ish gram rims. I used FiR Alkors (extremely narrow with deep tire pocket and used to build some proto disk wheels, one of which I used for a while), claimed at 280g, and Isidis, claimed 330-350g. Those are gone too. The Isidis to me were bomb-proof - never bent one.

cdr

If you want to play that game you'll end up riding a 21 lb steel framed bike with Tiagra...

I ride a steel-framed SOMA (although it's equipped with Record). Again, I'm a sophomore in high school. Money isn't something I can just throw around.


lol.

I bent them, not flexed them. Potholes, ran over one with car (my friend backed up instead of forward), etc. They are kind of flexy too, but that's okay.

The 280s are kind of wide I think. Or maybe just wide-seeming.

My own personal rims are all not okay - typically a bad spot on the sidewall so I get the "thump thump thump" when I brake. But otherwise fine, so good for track. I crashed them all, bent them all a little. This was back in my 5 years of crashing in races - 1988-1992. I went through a lot of wheels back then.

Light rims, light where it counts (outer bit of wheel), very responsive. Accelerates hard until about 40 mph, then you hit an aero wall. I couldn't bear to throw out even the thumpy rims once Mavic/Campy discontinued their 280-ish gram rims. I used FiR Alkors (extremely narrow with deep tire pocket and used to build some proto disk wheels, one of which I used for a while), claimed at 280g, and Isidis, claimed 330-350g. Those are gone too. The Isidis to me were bomb-proof - never bent one.

cdr

Sweet! It's good to know! I mean, nobody plans on crashing a lot, so hopefully I won't destroy the wheelset in the next few years. I also have a single Isidis rim, although it's way wider than the Mavics. Actually, the Mavics to be seem to be the thinnest rims of the lot except for some Wolber Profil 18 I have in the shed.

Maybe I should build up this Record Pave rimset sometime as well...I have too many rims.

Anyway, thanks a lot guys. I'm pretty sure I have all the information I could possibly want to attain on nipples, and will figure it out from here.

Yeah, I hate Al nipples...

Atleast go brass on the rear drive side.

I'm not a physics expert, but it seems kinda crazy to me that the drive side would be under more force than the non-drive side, when all the spokes are attached to the same hub body.

Because of the bracing angle, the drive side spokes are under significantly more tension than the NDS. When you see the lacing that has 16 DS spokes and 8 radial NDS spokes, that's an effort to balance the tension in each spoke. It's not like the drive side has more torque put to it, it's just inherent in the geometry of how things are laid out.

OK, well now that the DS vs. non-DS nipple type is up for debate due to angle and length, etc...

The hubs I'm using are Velocity's new, and unavailable to the public separate from a Major Tom wheelset, hi-low flange rear pro road hub. The hub makes spoke tension equal on both sides of the wheel.

I'm not a physics expert, but it seems kinda crazy to me that the drive side would be under more force than the non-drive side, when all the spokes are attached to the same hub body.

It's true. Decent explanation and a diagram here (bottom of page). (http://www.dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/choosing-spokes-advice/)