Bicycle Mechanics - Fixed cup wrench for C&V Campy BB cup

I have three Campagnolo BB wrenches. Each of them has one end that functions on the adjustable cup. The open-end wrench on the other end of each of them is a headset (size) wrench. Why is it that none of these "BB tools" has a wrench end to deal with the fixed cup?

Does Campy, Park or anyone make a BB wrench sized to deal with a C&V Campy BB fixed cup?

Thanks.

Does C&V refer to the cups for the traditional square taper cup and cone BB sets, used from the sixties through the nineties?

If so, the 3 tools that Campagnolo sold back then, were as follows,
32mm HS/adj cup pin tool,
32mm HS/lock ring,
15mm pedal/fixed cup.

Others made similar tools in various combinations, but most offered a fixed cup tool at one end.

If you can't find one, I'm sure I have a Campy fixed cup/pedal tool, or a similar tool from either Cobra or Park. PM me if you're interested.

Does the Park HCW-4 fit the Campy fixed cup? Seems like that's what I've used.
It's a 36mm "box" end

Exactly. I think one of my Campy tools is a dup.

The point is that the open-end wrenches are 32mm. The fixed cup is about a 38mm.

This thing:

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/IMG_2414-s.jpg

What is the normal tool for this? 38mm wrenches are not normally a part of one's standard kit. Guess I can try the auto-parts store...

Remeasure and make sure it's not 36mm. I don't recall any other cup tools that I own, and I've removed/installed Campys

It's definitely a 36mm, and I have tool (36mmFC/pedal) if you're interested. BTW- buy yourself a stack of washers big enough to fit over the spindle and bigger than the cup on the OD. You'll use them to lock the tool to the cup using the spindle bolt. While locking the tool on isn't absolutely necessary, fixed cup tools slipping was a common cause of bike mechanic hand injuries.

Does the Park HCW-4 fit the Campy fixed cup? Seems like that's what I've used.
It's a 36mm "box" end

Yes, but hasn't been made for about a decade

Yes, but hasn't been made for about a decade

$15.19 on Amazon, so can't be too tough to find.

I have three Campagnolo BB wrenches. Each of them has one end that functions on the adjustable cup. The open-end wrench on the other end of each of them is a headset (size) wrench. Why is it that none of these "BB tools" has a wrench end to deal with the fixed cup?

Does Campy, Park or anyone make a BB wrench sized to deal with a C&V Campy BB fixed cup?

Thanks.

Yes, those tools are available. It's not the tool company's fault that you have 3 of the same tool, and none of the other tool.

Very helpful contribution.

...

Thanks to all. I'm ordering the Park tool.

The tool you're missing is this one:
http://www.velobase.com/VeloImages/Tools/4EF5DE01-145A-48BE-98B9-48C555151399.jpeg

Absolutely. Someday, I'll get one for the "best tools" box. But, for now, the Park tool will serve my immediate needs.

Thanks for the photo.

if your bikes are english threaded, you'll be better off using the sheldon method. your knuckles will thank you.

-rob

Hmm. Interesting. Wish I'd found that before I was nearly finished. And, I swear, I searched his site earlier.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

If starting from scratch. Still, once installed, I can see there could easily be problems in getting the nut/bolt arrangement off.

Ah, well. Next frame...

Since the OP mentioned a 'next frame' (and I myself am interested in this), are there any cup & cone bottom brackets with a fixed cup that has something besides wrench flats for its removal? Like maybe the splines that one finds on most cartridge bottom bracket cups? Does anyone offer replacement fixed cups with such designs?

Since the OP mentioned a 'next frame' (and I myself am interested in this), are there any cup & cone bottom brackets with a fixed cup that has something besides wrench flats for its removal? Like maybe the splines that one finds on most cartridge bottom bracket cups? Does anyone offer replacement fixed cups with such designs?

i've never seen them, but something else may exist. might make more sense to move to a cartridge bb at this point...

-rob

That is generally true, but there are also some BB sets that have dual adjustable cups - meaning on each side. These allow for more precise chain line adjustments, too.

But, as noted, cartridge BBs are convenient.

As it is, I like old frames and have a bunch of NOS old-style bottom brackets. But clearly, I was in need of a specific tool! My current project is the first time I've ever had to install a fixed cup. Usually, it is there and cleaned from the inside. Still learning...

I just did one of these (Campagnolo fixed cup removal) from
a 1978 frame that had been installed with some sort of thread
sealing compound and been in place for 32 years.

You need to refer to:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?254103-Fixed-Cup-Removal&highlight=fixed+cup+removal

and read far enough into it so that you get to
the ingenious idea of using a short 1/2" or 5/8"
hex bolt and nut with washers inside the cup and
outside the tool (large enough to hold it on the cup).

You can then proceed, as did I, to hit the end of the
goddam wrench in the appropriate direction with
a deadblow hammer (if you have one) or something
of a similar nature. This is kind of the poor man's
impact wrench.

Prior to doing any of this, degrease the cup area and
hit it from both sides with PB Blaster (as seen on TV)
and some triflow and let them soak in for 20 or 30
minutes. Patience and fortitude are called for in this
particular operation. For some reason I seem to have
both the Park and the Campagnolo tools for this fixed
cup. Must be indicative of advanced age or senility.

Mike Larmer

Hmm. Interesting. Wish I'd found that before I was nearly finished. And, I swear, I searched his site earlier.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

If starting from scratch. Still, once installed, I can see there could easily be problems in getting the nut/bolt arrangement off.

Ah, well. Next frame...

I've used this method, and You're right--once you get the bolt/washer/fixed cup/nut removed from the bike, you've tightened it all down so much that they're effectively bound together. The only way I was able to get those nuts/bolts off was by re-attaching the fixed cup back on the frame and reversing the process. Perhaps using a vise and a big wrench would work, but I have no vise at my disposal, unfortunately.

Kroil is superior to PBlaster, though PBlaster's container is far more entertaining to read.

I've used this method, and You're right--once you get the bolt/washer/fixed cup/nut removed from the bike, you've tightened it all down so much that they're effectively bound together. The only way I was able to get those nuts/bolts off was by re-attaching the fixed cup back on the frame and reversing the process. Perhaps using a vise and a big wrench would work, but I have no vise at my disposal, unfortunately.

Kroil is superior to PBlaster, though PBlaster's container is far more entertaining to read.

I've done this to a handful of fixed cups, and while the majority of them were torqued down really tight, i was able to extricate the hardware and the cup itself with a little bit of determination and brute force. If you tightened it down by hand, you can loosen it back up by hand, too.

-rob

That is generally true, but there are also some BB sets that have dual adjustable cups - meaning on each side. These allow for more precise chain line adjustments, too.

But, as noted, cartridge BBs are convenient.

As it is, I like old frames and have a bunch of NOS old-style bottom brackets. But clearly, I was in need of a specific tool! My current project is the first time I've ever had to install a fixed cup. Usually, it is there and cleaned from the inside. Still learning...

I, too, am not sure why anyone would want to go to the old school BBs when the after-market fixed cartridge ones are so cheap and user friendly. Those old-style bottom brackets seem to give out after a lot of use...I've had three different 1980's bicycles in which those bottom brackets went bad and needed replacing...I stuck a new after-market BB in my 1987 Trek 400 about 6,000 miles ago and it's still working well.

I, too, am not sure why anyone would want to go to the old school BBs when the after-market fixed cartridge ones are so cheap and user friendly. Those old-style bottom brackets seem to give out after a lot of use...I've had three different 1980's bicycles in which those bottom brackets went bad and needed replacing...I stuck a new after-market BB in my 1987 Trek 400 about 6,000 miles ago and it's still working well.
A high quality cup-and-cone bottom bracket will last indefinitely with regular maintenance. A person may find this preferable to a modern disposable cartridge unit for a number of reasons, particularly if the frame has odd threading for which reasonably priced cartridge units are not readily available.

A high quality cup-and-cone bottom bracket will last indefinitely with regular maintenance. A person may find this preferable to a modern disposable cartridge unit for a number of reasons, particularly if the frame has odd threading for which reasonably priced cartridge units are not readily available.

Isn't lasting almost indefinitely a valid enough reason in and of itself? Or are you implying that in our throw away society something disposable is inherently superior to something which, with a bit of service, will stay out of the wast stream?

A high quality cup-and-cone bottom bracket will last indefinitely with regular maintenance. A person may find this preferable to a modern disposable cartridge unit for a number of reasons, particularly if the frame has odd threading for which reasonably priced cartridge units are not readily available.


Isn't lasting almost indefinitely a valid enough reason in and of itself? Or are you implying that in our throw away society something disposable is inherently superior to something which, with a bit of service, will stay out of the waste stream?

This is crazy, old guy talk. :50: Pay no attention
to it. Certainly the time and place in which I live
seems to give it little credence.:(

Personally, I look forward to inflatable, single
use bicycles (no doubt made from some sort
of carbon fiber/plastic composite) that we will
all (those of of left standing in the first world
anyway) be able to buy from vending machines.

Weight weenies of the future will doubtless
fill the suckers with helium.

Hey, my ancestors built the pyramids. I guess I still have that "build it to last forever" gene.

Modern cartridge bb's are superior technology -- Sheldon said it, so it's probably true.

Sheldon's tool kludge to remove BB fixed cups.
Common parts at the Auto parts or industrial hardware store.
http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

184665

There is the right tool for the job. You can get a $100 knock off if you can't find the original VAR tool. I have one of these and all sorts of stuck fixed cups instantly become easy to remove. However, a $15 tool and some washers is probably fine if you aren't going to be doing it very often.

Bicycle Research made a wrench holding tool , 80's
It uses the BB axle to hold the wrench on the flats of the fixed cup.
so you can use leverage of the wrench without it coming off the Cup.

Bicycle Research made a wrench holding tool , 80's
It uses the BB axle to hold the wrench on the flats of the fixed cup.
so you can use leverage of the wrench without it coming off the Cup.

Id much prefer to smack my fingers, toes, or the frame with my 5 pound sledge!

Bicycle Research made a wrench holding tool , 80's
It uses the BB axle to hold the wrench on the flats of the fixed cup.
so you can use leverage of the wrench without it coming off the Cup.
I think it was Stein that made the tool you describe. Here is Bike Tools Etc.'s listing for it:

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=910360224408&d=single&c=Tools&sc=Bottom-Bracket&tc=Fixed-Cup-Removers&item_id=SN-FCC3

A high quality cup-and-cone bottom bracket will last indefinitely with regular maintenance. A person may find this preferable to a modern disposable cartridge unit for a number of reasons..............

True. All of my bikes have modern bb's except one. On this one, the Nuovo Record bb is definitely preferable:

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/006-3.jpg

http://www.bikeparts.com/search_results.asp?ID=BPC301837
The last time I removed one of these I used a vice to hole the cup and the frame for leverage.

True. All of my bikes have modern bb's except one. On this one, the Nuovo Record bb is definitely preferable:

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/006-3.jpg

Does that thing come with sunglasses?

Does that thing come with sunglasses?

My apology to the OP for going so far off topic.......Shade your eyes, here's a copy and paste from my latest entry in the "steel club" thread in the road forum. Thank goodness for old Schwinn chrome and Mother's Chrome Polish:

1971 Schwinn Paramount with original chrome finish equipped with full Campy Nuovo Record, Regina Record chain, 14 x 24 five speed Regina Oro freewheel, Cinelli stem, Cinelli 64-38 handlebars, Brooks Professional saddle, Mavic Module E clinchers, Challenge Criterium tires, Christophe toe clips with Alfredo Binda straps:

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/022-1.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/024-1.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/006-3.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/010-1.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/007-3.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/020-1.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/034-1.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/003-2.jpg

http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp226/wellbiked/017-1.jpg

A Park headset press works well to hold the fixed cup wrench in place too.

-j

184665

There is the right tool for the job. You can get a $100 knock off if you can't find the original VAR tool. I have one of these and all sorts of stuck fixed cups instantly become easy to remove. However, a $15 tool and some washers is probably fine if you aren't going to be doing it very often.
Or this one, from Campagnolo. But be prepared to spend some $$$ if you don't go the DIY route.
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/fixed-cup-tool.jpg

I, too, am not sure why anyone would want to go to the old school BBs when the after-market fixed cartridge ones are so cheap and user friendly. Those old-style bottom brackets seem to give out after a lot of use...I've had three different 1980's bicycles in which those bottom brackets went bad and needed replacing...I stuck a new after-market BB in my 1987 Trek 400 about 6,000 miles ago and it's still working well.

The cheap cartridge units are close to double the weight of a cheap adjustable BB, and are also stiff as buggery. The fact they look a bit neater is all they have going for them.

The fact they look a bit neater is all they have going for them.

Given - cup and cone bb's are easy to adjust -- but it's hard to argue that sealed units aren't a hell of a lot easier.

Assuming you have the appropriate fixed cup wrench, I've made a very low cost clamp to keep it from slipping that won't harm the cup races at all.

The "tool" is a 4"x 5/8" bolt, a matching nut, and two BIG washers. This will cost a buck or two at any hardware store.

1. Remove the adjustable cup, spindle and bearings.
2. Thread the adjustable cup back into the bb shell several turns.
3. Place one washer on the bolt and stick it through the hole in the adjustable cup until the threaded end comes out the fixed cup side.
4. Place your fixed cup wrench over the cup's flats.
5. Add the second washer over the bolt so it sandwiches the wrench between itself and the frame.
6. Thread on the nut just finger tight. to keep the wrench firmly in place.
7. Use whatever force is needed on the wrench to break the fixed cup loose.
8. As SOON as the cup begins to turn, back off on the nut to let the cup unthread. After a turn or so you can probably remove the clamp bolt and washers.