Classic & Vintage - Pinarello research

I like the Pinarello Montello with the chromed rear triangle, but have been looking at some lower-end Pinarellos (such as the Treviso, Catena Lusso, Cadore, etc) due to their generally lower prices. I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable may be able to explain some features:

1. BB shell: Some of these bikes do not have the BB shell with pointed lugs, but instead have a plain BB shell.
- Are these investment cast?
- Is there a proper name for these plain BB shells (or are they simply called 'plain BB shells')?

http://picasaweb.google.com/115247275291185087513/PinarelloTreviso#5532659882969297970http://picasaweb.google.com/115247275291185087513/PinarelloTreviso#5532659882969297970

http://picasaweb.google.com/115247275291185087513/PinarelloTreviso#5532660900331855490

2. I have seen some bikes with a seat tube or down tube logo such as this:
http://img17.mediafire.com/0cb00f8e0692d722ae93c1e86869895fb379a34f9af8193cfce29c198df22d596g.jpg

(from this auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=130451124222&si=NOPZSrftGoAbgvBg52CSntkCihQ%253D&viewitem=), if the images don't show properly)
This frame at Classicbikeshop.eu (http://www.classicbikeshop.eu/frame-pinarello-stelvio-futuro-49-8294-details.html) (and several others from the same shop) has it too.
- Anyone know when they started using this logo?
- Is it particular to bikes from some markets (Europe)?

3. I believe Pinarellos started adding the second set of water bottle bosses in the mid-80s. Some Pinarellos I've seen with water bottle bosses on the Seat tube, do not seem to have any braze-on bosses (and yet some other bikes have them). The holes look like they are simply drilled and tapped. Is that how Pinarello supplied the frames? I'm inclined to think that's how they came, since this picture (http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/pinarello87/5.jpg) from belgier.net appear that way too.

http://picasaweb.google.com/115247275291185087513/PinarelloTreviso#5532660900331855490

(some other Pinarellos from classicbikeshop.eu appear this way too, such as this (http://www.classicbikeshop.eu/frame-pinarello-asolo-56-details.html)one)

4. For bikes with chromed chainstays and seatstays, I've seen them in red, blue, maroon, spumoni... were there any white bikes with chrome?

Thanks!

I tried doing some research about Pinarello and it is very difficult. There were a lot of variations and their serial numbers don't make sense. Maybe we should start a thread called "Show us your Pinarello" and we can point out what model we believe to have and what special characteristics they have. I'll take some picture of my pinarello tomorrow morning and see if it helps.

Look forward to seeing the pics. I wish I could find some additional Pinarello catalog scans (other than the few on bulgier.net which is an invaluable resource).

I have one, fastback stays, lots of chrome, typical design cut in the lugs, GP on sloping fork chrown, all chrome, short dropouts, braze-on front derailler. Never been able to figure out what it was...

3. I believe Pinarellos started adding the second set of water bottle bosses in the mid-80s. Some Pinarellos I've seen with water bottle bosses on the Seat tube, do not seem to have any braze-on bosses (and yet some other bikes have them). The holes look like they are simply drilled and tapped. Is that how Pinarello supplied the frames?

My '84 Pinarello Record has water bottle bosses on both the down tube and the seat tube, and they have small, subtle braze ons (the holes are not just tapped as far as I can see. I can't imagine how they could just tap the holes as the thickness of SL tubing is not likely anywhere thick enough to be tapped and hold a bolt for the cage). Mine does not have the decal with the logo you asked about- it came later, but I don't know quite when.

Both the water bottle bosses on the seat tube and down tube of my '97 Pinarello appear to be just holes in the tubing. But I've looked down the seat tube, and there are fittings (with threads) attached inside the tubing at each hole. So when you thread the water bottle cage bolt in, you're actually threading it into the internal fitting.

Ah, internal fitting make sense. Even on some of the Cromor/Matrix bikes with 26.8mm seatposts where the seat tube wall is thicker, 0.9mm walls seem hardly thick enough to support threads. Going slightly off-topic but I'd imagine it's easier to braze on the fittings from the outside?

I think that you are going into way too much detail. I visited the Pinarello production many times in the 80's and 90's and one of my friends from Treviso actually worked as a framebuilder (more correctly a brazer) for Pinarello. They were simply assembling frames as best as possible in the most economical way possible. They did not have a set of strict standards that they needed to respect. Variations were permitted. The builders did need to take responsibility for the frames they built from the structural side, but for the aesthetic point of view, they were permitted some leeway. If you want a nice Pinarello, here is an auction for one finishing shortly on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260691232253 With shipping included, I feel that the price is very good. (Full disclosure: I do know the seller)

there's a guy on velospace.org, goes by zephyrus...he seems to know a lot about Pinarellos.

Interesting info on the variations - thanks. Nice bike in that auction too.

Still trying to find out more on when the P logo decal came into use... or if it's a market-specific thing.

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7452/pinarelloplogo.jpg

Adding to my own thread.

Can anyone tell me about this Pinarello "Catena" (not "Catena Lusso") model? Link (http://picasaweb.google.com/115247275291185087513/PinarelloTreviso#) from the first post.

Looks like mid-80s, maybe 1984. Single set of bottle mounts, unknown tubing (but 26.8mm seatpost). I'm wondering what tubing it might be... I have seen the "Catena Lusso" model but not the "Catena". This Catena bike apparently uses 26.8 seatpost.

On the topic of the Catena Lusso model, I've seen pics of the C.Lusso model with both AelleR (bulgier.net), but I have seen several bikes and ads of the same model with Matrix tubing. Are there any ways to tell between Aelle and Matrix (without cutting the bike apart)? I.e. does Matrix/Cromor use rifled steerers, or something like that? I tried looking at seat tube / seat post (columbus-spec) but it appears that both are 26.8 with 0.9 walls.

Does anyone with firsthand knowledge of the Pinarello Matrix-tubed bikes know the seatpost size?