Classic & Vintage - Classic Cranks Advice for 3-speed with Chaincase Please!

I have a lugged modern 3-speed, on which I would like to change the cranks for something more classic. Here are the current cranks:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1085/5106310472_9dc0b68736_o.jpg

Due to the chaincase, I am limited to a 42t chainring. Any suggestions for an inexpensive classic-looking crankset that would fit?

Thanks in advance!

Search for "cottered" on ebay and you'll find a fair selection. Some of the Chinese ones are rather attractive... not really classic, but not terrible.

Sounds like you can't use the standard Raleigh type crank, since it has a 46 or 48 T chainring. At any rate, the arms on those are 6 1/5" (165 mm). That said... can you go as small as 36T? Pyramid sells a cottered crank with 6" arms (152 mm) and a 36T ring. It's called a "tricycle crank" for reasons I don't know. At any rate, it's a perfectly ordinary cottered bike crank. And it costs about ten bucks. Not very pretty in my opinion.

I was going to suggest a Stronglight 93, but the chaincase hides the best part...Do you want to use the same bottom bracket? I'm leaning towards rhm's suggestion for a cottered crank, but still a Stronglight.

Cheers,
Chris

If you're on Ebay, look for "chainset". That's what the English call them. You'll get a more European flavor to your results.

I like Sugino Super Mighty for a single chainring.

Or if affordability goes out the window, a TA cyclotouriste

"Classic-looking" doesn't give me enough to go on. Do you have examples of cranks that you like for this type of bike? You could use any number of 130 BCD cranks depending on the bottom bracket. There are several single chainring models sold by various companies.

I would prefer modern, cotterless (non-cottered?) cranks, but with a classic (elongated and slim, not chunky) look to them, and on the cheap side.
For example, like the ones on the modern Pashleys or Dutch bikes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lovely_bicycle/4795176218/in/set-72157622490725575/

or, even something like these would do:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lovely_bicycle/5127342128
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lovely_bicycle/4924178874

That Pashley crank is very pretty! I don't quite see the attraction of the other two, but more to the point, I'm not sure they would work. The one on the Trek, with a the spider and crank arm forged as one piece (usually a good sign) is definitely not going to play nice with your chain guard. You need a crank arm that's swaged to a disk-shaped chain ring, with generous clearance between the ring and the arm. I suggest you measure that distance on your existing crank, and report back; it's going to be the major limiting factor unless you want to replace the chain guard as well. A lot of headache for aesthetics!

Zaphod's suggestion for a TA may be the way to go, if you can get a chain ring small enough.

One of your biggest obstacles will be drive side crank clearance of your chain case (both inside and outside the chain case). I've gone through much trial and error just fitting a slim chain guard to my bike while keeping the slim, elegant CPI crank set that somehow found its way from Australia to a shop in the US, from which I adopted it. You'll need plenty of space between your crank arm and your chain ring, and then you may have to add or remove spacers from your bottom bracket, or replace it with longer or shorter spindle length to get an acceptable chain line.
CC
PS, I too am addicted to your blog!

Veloria, I hereby dub you "The Foremost Bicycle Æsthetician!"

Put that on your blog.

velouria, i'm sure by now you know my preference, which is shared with several of the above posters, although i think you and i disagree on it :-).

that said, i'm not even sure the TA crankset could work with the abici's chaincase as the Q-factor is so low. the pie plate rim might be too thick to provide adequate clearance between the chainring and the crank arm.

couldn't you just ask a pashley dealer to order a replacement set of the cranks used on the pashley? i agree, they look nice. (but are they alloy? they might be chromed steel, and therefore heavier than they need to be).

On my bikes in which I have a chainguard (though not a chain case), I've achieved enough clearance by mounting the ring on the inside of the spider. While that has raised the hackled of several BF aestheticians, it does perform as I'd like. I've most commonly done that with a Stronglight 93 crankset and used anywhere from 42 to 48t rings:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_GmYBBzTzcVQ/TGwyHBekN4I/AAAAAAAAHtE/tmKMNxR9Pm4/s800/GrandSportsKickback4.jpg

Neal

On my bikes in which I have a chainguard (though not a chain case), I've achieved enough clearance by mounting the ring on the inside of the spider. While that has raised the hackled of several BF aestheticians, it does perform as I'd like. I've most commonly done that with a Stronglight 93 crankset and used anywhere from 42 to 48t rings:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_GmYBBzTzcVQ/TGwyHBekN4I/AAAAAAAAHtE/tmKMNxR9Pm4/s800/GrandSportsKickback4.jpg

Neal

neal, mounting the ring to the inside of the spider wouldn't even be noticed on a full chaincase setup, so that's a nice suggestion, and i could see that working on a crank with a very small BCD like the TA pro or stronglight 49. but for cranks with a larger BCD but similar low Q factor such as your stronglight shown above, would a pie plate with a rolled edge even fit between the spider and the crank arm?

Neal's is a good suggestion. I do the same mounting trick mounting the chainring in the inner position with a Sugino crankset on my commuter. I did it to get a better chainline on my IGH.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_C_ZmRsQylO0/TGMFxFglPjI/AAAAAAAABbM/99ZKPZhhDEM/IMG_1314.JPG

neal, mounting the ring to the inside of the spider wouldn't even be noticed on a full chaincase setup, so that's a nice suggestion, and i could see that working on a crank with a very small BCD like the TA pro or stronglight 49. but for cranks with a larger BCD but similar low Q factor such as your stronglight shown above, would a pie plate with a rolled edge even fit between the spider and the crank arm?

I imagine the fit would be very close, if not impossible! However, I've seen pics of the TA pro vis 5 (also low Q) used with a chaincase though perhaps one with a larger opening than Veloria's. A completely different aesthetic would be to use an MTB crankset from the 80s as those had much higher Q and more spacing between arm and spider.

Neal

For extra chaincase clearance, I imagine you could mount the TA ring on the inside of the spider, though I've never seen that done. But is a TA outer ring available as small as 42T?

But is a TA outer ring available as small as 42T?

yes, in fact i recently sold off a couple of 50.4BCD 42T rings that i had gotten as part of a TA box lot.

The sturmey archer crankset featured on this cooper "aintree" bicycle is rather nice looking. Though, they are probably not inexpensive nor are they any easier to find than other suggestions previously made here. They probably also would have the same problem clearing the pie plate in the chain case that other cranks would have. They do have a version with a 42 tooth chainring though.

178504

My own tastes in classic arms run to Stronglight, and you can find models other than the sought-after 93 and 49 (which in their most classic phases had beautiful sharp-edged arms that are nevertheless somewhat "brutalist") more cheaply on eBay and CL. The only problem with these (cheaper ones) is that they tend to have odd chainring BCD sizes like 86; you'd probably be able to find one with a small chainring that will work for you, but replacement might be dicey. I also like the Sugino cranks, though apart from the Mighty Competition (144 BCD) and the Mighty Tour (110 BCD) they tend to look more modern than you might like. Several of the more modern ones also have an annoying characteristic -- they forged only one crank length (like 175 mm) and simply made shorter cranks by drilling the hole further up the arm -- that's a visual turn-off. Suntour's are nice, too, but unless early Superbe, again fairly modern-looking, rather than classic. I suggest window-shopping at VeloBase.com first, followed by patience and a well-constructed saved keyword search on eBay.

You may wish to check out what your front chainwheel distance from frame centerline is: with a 3-speed, you want the chainline to be close, like a fixed/singlespeed, and so you have to get a crank that can work with both chaincase and the adjustability of the rear cog chainline. But that's another topic unto itself. If the crank you choose has JIS taper (not Stronglight), then finding a well-priced BB that will work is easy (arm clearance at chainstay aside). For ISO and other "classic" standards, not so easy. Yes, as nlerner pointed out, the inside mounting position of a crank designed as a double can work, if you have chaincase clearance for the spider hanging outboard of that.

Thanks so much for all the replies.
I cannot believe that I even dared to hope that this would be easy : )

Re some of the comments: Yes, Pashley's cranks are steel and they are heavy. This bike is a "light" (30lb) Italian 3-speed, so I would prefer if at all possible to go alloy. I have nothing against a TA crankset, other than that I cannot afford it, especially as I'd like to do other things to this bike (like switch the current Shimano Nexus hub for a modern SA, but that is another story).

I was under the apparently deluded impression that there is a ton of cheap cranksets out there and it was just a matter of finding the right size and knowing what name to look for. Argh! : )

I will have a thorough read through all the advice and will report back re whether I find a good solution.

Thanks once again!

There is probably something out there in the vintage market that would suit you perfectly. The trick is to find it.

I was under the apparently deluded impression that there is a ton of cheap cranksets out there and it was just a matter of finding the right size and knowing what name to look for. Argh! : )

the hardest part is finding the right one for the job, but once that's established the rest is easy, and there is a ton of cheap cranksets out there.

those cranks don't even look half bad; i wonder if simply swapping out the pedals for vintage block pedals or rat-trap pedals would transform the overall look.

Here's the V-O chaincase (http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/chainguards-stay-protectors-kickstands/vo-porteur-style-chaincase.html). Note that the crank arm is the Nervar equivalent of the Stronglight 49D or TA Pro Vis 5. I guess there's enough clearance:

http://store.velo-orange.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x750/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/g/cg-1000.jpg

Veloria, I have an orphan right-hand Nervar crank arm such as the one shown. Of course, you'd have to track down a left side, but it's a start. Let me know if you're interested.

Neal

You're not recommending that chaincase, are you? I'm sure it won't "go" on that bike.

You're not recommending that chaincase, are you? I'm sure it won't "go" on that bike.

No, no. I personally think that chaincase is brutally ugly, but, then again, what do I know?

Neal

You know a lot, Neal. Take a look at your own fleet as a reminder. And yes, it is brutally ugly. Looks like a ship repairman made it.

On a side note, I never understood those VO chaincases...

I mean, a proper (covering both sides) chainguard should cover most everything you'd need to keep your pants dry, and it's not like that chaincase is fully enclosed, so you don't even get the benefit of having a perma-lubed chain...

Here's the V-O chaincase (http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/chainguards-stay-protectors-kickstands/vo-porteur-style-chaincase.html). Note that the crank arm is the Nervar equivalent of the Stronglight 49D or TA Pro Vis 5. I guess there's enough clearance:

http://store.velo-orange.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x750/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/g/cg-1000.jpg

neal, i have that chaincase, waiting to be installed on my jeunet. it will fit, but *barely*. in fact, the reason i've held off installing it is because i don't want to have to spend hours getting it just right so that it doesn't rub with the provided hardware, which is less than rigid. note that it does not have a rolled edge at the crank opening, it's totally flat-- i think that's why it'll work. i think velouria's chaincase is thicker because of the rolled/scuplted edge.


No, no. I personally think that chaincase is brutally ugly, but, then again, what do I know?



hey, i resemble that remark! actually, i have mine powder coated the same color as the bike, and i think it will look great once installed. i just have to get around to installing it.

hey, i resemble that remark! actually, i have mine powder coated the same color as the bike, and i think it will look great once installed. i just have to get around to installing it.

Sorry, Anton! I did remember you have that chaincase, and no reason to share my aesthetic--after all, I'm the one fond of mounting rings on the inside of the crank spider. The horror!

Neal

Neal - Thanks, I would love to give those a try if you can find the 2nd one.

Personally, I like the VO chaincase, on the right kind of bike. But on this one I'd rather stick with the manufacturer's chaincase - it is very nice and absolutely silent.

Sorry, Anton! I did remember you have that chaincase, and no reason to share my aesthetic--after all, I'm the one fond of mounting rings on the inside of the crank spider. The horror!

Neal

ha, no worries, neal! i do agree that that case can look bad in certain applications!

The problem with the Nervar crank, or TA Pro 5 vis or Stronglight 49 would be finding a chainwheel that's small (42's what OP wants), wouldn't it?

The problem with the Nervar crank, or TA Pro 5 vis or Stronglight 49 would be finding a chainwheel that's small (42's what OP wants), wouldn't it?

i don't know if they're still made, and they might not pop up often, but you can find old 42T outer rings. it's the one that has the "cyclotouriste" 80 BCD inner bolt hole pattern in addition to the 50.4 BCD crank holes. it was TA's model 205 (ref:205). i think 42T was the smallest in that model. i don't know if stronglight or nervar made similar rings.

Veloria, I think your the result of your effort will have very diminished returns. Really I don't think anyone will ever notice the crank. Perhaps ride the bike for a year, accumulate some dust and dirt on the cranks and they will probably not be an issue visually. Anyway, I think they look fine just the way they are.

PS How about a pic of the rest of the bike?

i don't know if they're still made, and they might not pop up often, but you can find old 42T outer rings. it's the one that has the "cyclotouriste" 80 BCD inner bolt hole pattern in addition to the 50.4 BCD crank holes. it was TA's model 205 (ref:205). i think 42T was the smallest in that model. i don't know if stronglight or nervar made similar rings.

I actually have a 40t outer ring. I'll have to check the manufacturer--Stronglight, I think. I used it on my winter commuter last year for some seriously low single-speed gearing (40t crank ring, 22t freewheel).

Neal

I'm not generally a Shimano fan, but here's an early 600 series crank that has vintage appeal:
http://i.ebayimg.com/13/%21B80s,%21QBWk%7E$%28KGrHqUOKiEEzSNLrBpwBM4EYb9BCQ%7E%7E_12.JPG
Seller's in France, with $16 shipping, but they do sell more locally on eBay too.
Here's the auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/Shimano-600-w-cut-crank-set-good-condition-Vintage-/160506576863?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255eefffdf). Small ring is a 39.
And the good thing is that it's a JIS taper crank, with 130 BCD, easy to find chainrings.

Veloria, I may have found what you need in my parts bin. It's a lower-middle-grade Sugino crank from the 80's, 170 mm aluminum arms swaged to an aluminum spider for 110 bcd rings. Since it's swaged, the contact area between the spider and the crank arm is quite small, comparable to the TA/Nervar/Stronglight/Velo Orange ones shown above; and since it's got removable chain rings, you can put any size on there you want (42's are readily available).

Will it fit? Dunno for sure, but there's about 5 mm space between the spider and the crank arm, which opens up to about 10 mm of space between the outer chain ring and the crank arm (enough space for a chainring guard bolted to the outer ring). I think that just might be enough, depending on spindle length and how adjustable your chain case is.

Can't show photos right now, my camera is awol; but in overall proportions it's like the one archashwell showed above. Just slightly cheaper looking, and bearing a patina of 25 years of oxidation.

I don't have a 42T ring for it, nor a set of chain ring bolts, but you can find those. Let me know if interested.

I had the same problem retrofitting bike with a full chaincase. Original crank was made of lead or something, so I didn't want to re-use it. Main problem of course was the central part of possible replacement cranks being too large for the hole in the "pie plate" chaincase cover. I had the added problem of needing a tiny chainring to get the gearing right for the rider, so I ended up going with a new FG crank and leaving off the pie plate. Here are a couple of things I tried; since you want to use a reasonable sized ring, something like this may work for you. Super Maxy is probably easy to find and has a swaged spider, so it might fit. I also considered using this less-classic but probably available shimano mountain triple and hacking off the attachment points for the outer rings. I couldn't bring myself to do that, however.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5184721860_a743ec7ac4_b.jpg

For extra chaincase clearance, I imagine you could mount the TA ring on the inside of the spider, though I've never seen that done. But is a TA outer ring available as small as 42T?
I've seen them as small as 32T, for tandem timing chains.

Veloria, I think your the result of your effort will have very diminished returns. Really I don't think anyone will ever notice the crank. Perhaps ride the bike for a year, accumulate some dust and dirt on the cranks and they will probably not be an issue visually. Anyway, I think they look fine just the way they are.

PS How about a pic of the rest of the bike?

+1
At first glance my eye is drawn to the plastic pedal (you're too stylish for such things!). A classic looking pedal and a metal or chrome plated, plastic dustcap will go a long way in the looks department, I think.

+1 to plastic pedal

I've was looking at the pics of your bike and thinking about the cranks, and what really ruins the look for me is the dustcap. The cranks are a little on the thick side, and remind me a bit of my kitchen faucet, but really the plastic pedals coupled with the plastic dustcap give a feeling of 'cheap plumbing' to the look of those cranks. A way to break up the wideness of the cranks would be to run a tasteful bit of pinstriping down the center, or handpaint a stencil design. If it was me, I'd probably epoxy some beer caps from my favorite microbrew to the existing dustcaps, but that's a different type of aestetic. But for simplicity, new chrome dustcaps and metal pedals might go a long way to changing the look for the better.

I know I'm late to the party, and Velouria may have already sourced something, but I had a Fuji crank set ( Forged Japan 171 G-2) with a swaged on 52t chain ring, with 110 bcd holes on the spider for a smaller ring. It has quite a bit of clearance between the arm and the ring / spider.
I was wanting a 42 ring only for my SS shop bike, so I sawed off ( I know, drewed) the large chain ring and left the spider, and fit the smaller ring only. No spacers required, so I needed thin chain ring bolts.

It worked out well, and in your application the Drew would not be seen.

Veloria, I think your the result of your effort will have very diminished returns. Really I don't think anyone will ever notice the crank.

Au contraire, Andrew F. That slender, old school crank arm MAKES the look!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5184702086_7f0e482734_b.jpg

Au contraire, Andrew F. That slender, old school crank arm MAKES the look!


Hmmmm... on your BSA, it's the entire deal; Chainring, crank and guard, its's all visible. But on Veloria's bike the Chaincase covers everything but the crank. What I'm saying is- that as the two previous posters have noted- replace the pedal and dustcap and I think the crank will not be such an issue. Would it be sweet to have a thin crank, yeah but I don't think it's as big of an issue. Anyway seems like a lot of money when a few simple changes and some road grime may soften things up a bit.

I'm finding it a bit funny that most of us spend less on entire bicycles than what we are suggesting Veloria spend to update her cranks.

Yes but its really fun to spend other people's money :)

Veloria, I think your the result of your effort will have very diminished returns. Really I don't think anyone will ever notice the crank. Perhaps ride the bike for a year, accumulate some dust and dirt on the cranks and they will probably not be an issue visually. Anyway, I think they look fine just the way they are.

PS How about a pic of the rest of the bike?
See here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lovely_bicycle/sets/72157625220428822/detail/) for a flickr set of the bike.

Overall I guess I agree with you. I am friendly with the manufacturer, and they've already told me that this is what they've been able to come up with given the chaincase. I agree that the cranks are not that bad, and several European "modern classic" bicycle manufacturers use them. It's just that the bicycle frame is so beautiful, that it "calls out to me" for something more period-appropriate. The manufacturer uses what I think is a modern Stronglight crankset on a chaincase-less version (http://www.bellaciao.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/moscova26.jpg) of the same bike, but the ring won't fit inside the chaincase (which I love and am not giving up).


+1
At first glance my eye is drawn to the plastic pedal (you're too stylish for such things!). A classic looking pedal and a metal or chrome plated, plastic dustcap will go a long way in the looks department, I think.
The pedals are CatEye and are pretty good (as in effective), so I am afraid to mess with what feels good. But if I replace them, I am thinking MKS rubber block pedals. This is a 3-speed city bike, so I want to ride it in all of my normal shoes and metal pedals can be slippery in the rain.


Au contraire, Andrew F. That slender, old school crank arm MAKES the look!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5184702086_7f0e482734_b.jpg
Oh right, taunt me with your beautiful BSA cranks and sexy chainguard. Very nice!

Veloria, I may have found what you need in my parts bin. It's a lower-middle-grade Sugino crank from the 80's, 170 mm aluminum arms swaged to an aluminum spider for 110 bcd rings. Since it's swaged, the contact area between the spider and the crank arm is quite small, comparable to the TA/Nervar/Stronglight/Velo Orange ones shown above; and since it's got removable chain rings, you can put any size on there you want (42's are readily available).

Will it fit? Dunno for sure, but there's about 5 mm space between the spider and the crank arm, which opens up to about 10 mm of space between the outer chain ring and the crank arm (enough space for a chainring guard bolted to the outer ring). I think that just might be enough, depending on spindle length and how adjustable your chain case is.

Can't show photos right now, my camera is awol; but in overall proportions it's like the one archashwell showed above. Just slightly cheaper looking, and bearing a patina of 25 years of oxidation.

I don't have a 42T ring for it, nor a set of chain ring bolts, but you can find those. Let me know if interested.
Re this and other advice for cranksets that are doubles to begin with - I don't think my mechanical abilities are up to understanding how to convert them to single ring cranksets without destroying my bike, and the resident mechanic's new work schedule is such that his helping days are over for now. So I'd love to give it a try, but I'll need to read your post 3 more times just to understand it first : )

You know we're here to help. We've walked moderately unskilled people through some complicated tasks here.

That is a gorgeous bike, and those are very artful pictures.

What worries me about messing with the doubles, is that I might install a crankset that will seem right but will distort the BB or mess up the frame in some other way as I ride it. This has happened to a couple of people I know, so I am weary of it.

really the only ways I could imagine a crankset doing damage to your bike is if its rubbing the chainstay or if you're installing a crankset onto the wrong type of spindle (ISO on JIS or vice versa). Even if you're installing the crankset on the wrong type of spindle if you do get damage to anything its to the crankset not the frame or BB.


or I suppose if you switched to massively longer crank arms and got tons of pedal strike but thats a pretty outlandish suggestion.