Classic & Vintage - Interesting Dawes frame on ebay with "very unique" threadless BB

Anyone know what to make of this Dawes frame?

http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-Dawes-touring-Frameset-58cm-531-steel-/300493351362?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f6cca9c2

I've never seen that kind of threadless bottom bracket--cottered, apparently. Could it really have left the factory with an unthreaded BB? And what about those braze-ons on the seatstays and chainstay?

It's too small for me, fortunately.

Jon, I have one of those Bayliss-Wiley "cartridge" BBs. I'm not exactly sure what keeps them in the frameset, but I suppose they're not quite "very unique."

I'd also say that frameset is bigger than 58cm given the length of the head tube.

Neal

Ha! I knew that putting that "very unique" quote in the post would get a rise out of you, Neal!
Thanks for the info about the bb--I'll have to visit your museum one of these days.
Jon

I guess it's just regular "unique" then, Jon!

Neal

Is that bracket on the chainstay a Simplex bracket? It seems like it would be older than '66 with that bracket.

Is that bracket on the chainstay a Simplex bracket? It seems like it would be older than '66 with that bracket.

I've been trying to figure that bike out too. Its gotta be pre 60's. And if it really is a 58 cm, maybe it took 26" wheels?

Another nice bike from cheeseland.

I compared the ebay one to my 37' Dawes. I doubt very much that it is a 60's bike.

It is certainly a repaint and the decals are new--they look like those vinyl stickers sold on fleabay. I would even guess the headbadge is not original... it probably had a decal for a headbadge as mine does.

The braze ons seem to match very well, as do the lug patterns. My seat post lug has a different curve to it at the very top. The braze-on located on the chain stay is the same as mine which has a Cyclo-Oppy derailleur, popular in the 30's/40's. I'm not saying it's that old but the similarities are there.

The fork crown is not like mine and the oil cap on the bb is also different.

I would hazzard a guess that it is 1950's.... and that really is a guess. I think the tip off for me is that the oil cap looks like ones on my other 50's English bikes.
Just my .02

Why do I get the feeling the bottom bracket "used to be" threaded?!?

http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/dawes37.jpg
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/1937%20Dawes/Dawesbottombracket.jpg
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/1937%20Dawes/Dawesseatlug.jpg

The 1955 Dawes catalogue doesn't show any models with a Cyclo rear derailleur, so perhaps it predates 1955.

Be careful, Noglider will point out that there is no such thing as "very unique". According to him, something is unique or it is not. He would know better than I, so I defer to him.

I got the same feeling about the decals being replacements. So what are the chances that it is not actually 531 tubing? The frame is pretty attractive but the fork is sort of awkward looking, I like Ivandarken's fork a lot better. The way the seat stays attach to the seat lug is a little strange, but I like it.

i dont use ebay

Based on Ivandarken's photos, I'm inclined to agree it's a Dawes, and definitely not a 1966. Early 50's at the latest; with that derailleur mount 40's is more likely, if not 30's.

The BB looks to be a real oil-bath model; you line the hole in the cartridge up with the zerk in the BB shell, tighten it up with the adjusting ring, and fill 'er up.

Original headset, my elbow. Headset stacks very high; I suspect this frame came with the old clip type headset with a zerk on the top. If so, then I think there should be a zerk on the left side of the lower head lug; can't make it out in the photo.

Most intriguing is the mount on the chain stay just behind the BB. I guess its for a chain tensioner like on the Osgear or Overhill derailleur systems. Look at the photo below, which has a different rear derailleur mount anyway; so clearly not the same thing; but that braze-on must be for something of this type. http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/overhill1s.JPG

I thought Dawes was Birmingham - at least until they burnt down in the 70's.
Says Nottingham in the ebay blurb. Sort of odd.

Seller doesn't know his stuff; par for the ebay course.

Looking around online, I find surprisingly little info on Dawes, including no images of this particular head badge, and no old catalogs. Anyone?

I'm in the same boat... I have 4 Dawes and I seem to be my own best source... which isn't saying much.

I think that ebay seller is hawking some crap though. He knows enough about the bike to seem like he is omitting some very important information, like the obvious paint job and decals.

I wish we could download his pictures here so that when the auction ends this thread will make sense for future research. Anyone?

It looks similar to a late 1930s Dawes like the Cyclo Sports model. The model came with that derailleur mount, with a Bayliss Wiley oil bath bottom bracket, most of these braze-ons, etc. The illustration quality in older Dawes catalogues (in the Veteran Cycle Club online library) doesn't show lug/crown details very well.

I did some looking around for Dawes headbadge info and saw at least a couple of variations of the torch design. The one on this bike is the early version, I believe, and Velobase.com shows it as a 1950s design (http://www.velobase.com/HeadbadgeGallery.aspx?SearchID=113c7e32-ae5f-4ebd-bf57-2e506c5f0449). Here's the 1960s version I've glued on to my Dawes tourer:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_GmYBBzTzcVQ/SjeTqGN91EI/AAAAAAAAD1I/OsmVM7yBdsE/s800/DawesTourer16.jpg

Neal

Neal, I see five Dawes badges on Velobase, three with torches, two without; but I don't see one like this.

I got the same feeling about the decals being replacements.
The decal at the base of the seat tube is a "531-respray" decal:
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/531-respray.jpg

Geez I kinda wish I hadn't opened this thread. A Dawes was the first vintage bike I ever really desired. :rolleyes:

Neal, I see five Dawes badges on Velobase, three with torches, two without; but I don't see one like this.

You're right. At first glance, I thought this one is close:

From the auction:
http://i.ebayimg.com/20/!B82lpvwBmk~$(KGrHqN,!jMEzKg5pjb7BM4ID)iwR!~~_12.JPG

From Velobase:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_GmYBBzTzcVQ/TOVstLJRsgI/AAAAAAAAH3g/yKjCEMAFKGY/s800/43D78D76-6574-46D4-8FBB-5D3ACBA9E882.jpeg

But it's not!

Neal

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/531-respray.jpg

Someone did a helluva job facing the BB's non-drive side. :rolleyes:

^^^^^^It's odd, the facing, rather grinding appears to be done after the re-paint. Also, take a look at the image of BB, it looks like there are remains of threads slightly visible on the bottom.
http://i.ebayimg.com/16/!B82lq3Q!Wk~$(KGrHqJ,!lMEy+jCvyD6BM4ID0,Hlg~~_3.JPG

I found this on Flickr:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/4888370090_8c4485472b_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4830642080_59cf38951d_b.jpg
the above is from a Dawes Tartan Tourist.

From the fork section and braze-ons, plus the Bayliss Wiley BB, this is a late 1930's Dawes. No civilian production 1939 to 1945, the factory was making war supplies, steel stock was requisitioned by the War Office and the workers were drafted into the military - some sort of unpleasantness had arisen with the Germans, Japanese, Italians and for part of the time with the Russians! All friends again now though!

Seller's got the date all wrong and it's been refinished with the "wrong" decals, but it's survived pretty well for it's age. Would have been a brilliant bike in its day. It could be 531, equally Accles & Pollack tubing - which was similar but now rarer. No real way to tell, but from a later model I once owned I believe this will be a really light steel frame. Pretty sure the frame would have had a threaded BB when built and the threads ground out in the factory to take the buyer's option of 'oil tank' BB. It's far too big for me and I don't buy oversize frames any more, also I'm having nightmares modifying the drive train on a 1985 tandem at present, but it would still make an awesome project for someone.

That frame's so relaxed, I got sleepy looking at it.

Geez I kinda wish I hadn't opened this thread. A Dawes was the first vintage bike I ever really desired. :rolleyes:

I have a Galaxy just sitting here...

don't tempt me :lol:

I'm headed up your way in early december to visit my brother in Johnson.

Thought I'd seen the badge before, found it on a '51 with the same lugs and fork crown. The pics. are protected so here is the link if your interested

http://www.theoldbicycleshowroom.co.uk/c1951-dawes-gentlemans-racing-bicycle-1044-p.asp

I had noticed that bike a few days ago and was also intrigued by the threadless bb. The close up picture of the inside does seem to show the remains of some bb threads. Funny. I recently acquired a 1980's English Dawes Lightning road bike. I remember the line up, somewhat, but have also been very frustrated going on line and trying to get any info at all on that era Dawes. I came up with basically nothing, and was just trying to find out what the original specs were. Almost all the info available is for the new made in china -bikes -with -the-Dawes-decals-plastered on. Amazing that there was no data, that I have yet to find, on the English road bikes of the 1970's, which I retailed, or of the 1980's era. Finally had to get a hold of a friend of mine who used to work for Dawes, in order to get some info. Interesting to see what this e bay Dawes will sell for.

here's a page of the 1939 Dawes Catalog http://www.flickr.com/photos/75395133@N00/3084460151/

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=179481&d=1290399737

I think that might be the bike.

Does anyone know anything about the Cyclo Derailleur and the rod that's going from the deraileur to just behind the chainwheel?

I'm going to guess it's a spring that keeps the chain tensioned. But that really is a guess.

Images courtesy of interwebs...
This is from a James:
http://www.theracingbicycle.com/images/1931_James_full.jpg
ReneHearse:
http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSCN00037.JPG
Don't know:
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/GB509793A4-filtered.jpg
For sale on internets:
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/1076550789352_cyclo_gear_system2.jpg

http://www.theracingbicycle.com/images/1931_James_full.jpg

thats the RD I'm talking about. No clue what that rod could be doing aside from immobilizing the derailleur front to back or possibly providing spring tension but I'd really love to figure out what model it is and mostly...why the rod?

Not a rod. It's a densely wound spring. (thanks you internets)
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy338/ivandarken/James_Cyclo.jpg

Perfect, thanks for the pics :)

Is this your bike in these pics or would you mind sharing the link where you found the pics?

I was looking at an old Cyclo ad last night for their 3 cog cassette for Sturmey Archer Hubs. They made a 16-19-22 that worked with this derailleur.

179550

Seller's got the date all wrong and it's been refinished with the "wrong" decals, but it's survived pretty well for it's age. Would have been a brilliant bike in its day.

I saw it as well and thought it was older than advertised and repainted. Got my interest until I realized I'd never be able to assemble the correct parts for it. Way before my time, I know nothing!

Cyclo made a 2 cog unit that fits on the 3-splined driver common to most SA hubs and other IGH's. I have one with 16T and 19T cogs. But I don't use it, it's a nice unit, but has no advantage over a pair of the common 3-splined cogs assembled back-to-back; if you use regular cogs you should grind the teeth of the larger cog down to the flat-topped shape typical of freewheel and cassette cogs. This is a much more flexible arrangement than a Cyclo 2-cog unit. As for the 3-cog units, I have no experience. Do they require the longer axle? someone else will fill us in, perhaps?

I'd like to hear from anyone who's used the 3-cog unit. Are 3 cogs better than 2? How? It seems to me the additional gears are mostly redundant.

I's also like to hear from anyone who's used the Standard Cyclo or Oppy derailleurs. I've used Cyclo Benelux, and found them to be reliable when adjustted right, but a real pain to adjust. It is very difficult to adjust the amount of lateral travel.

well its in my hot little hands now. excuse the low res pics. The paint job is actually quite nice and I'll be keeping it for the time being. I threw a handy set of 700c wheels on just for kicks and to see the standover height. So far it looks like it should fit well.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_C_ZmRsQylO0/TPWLT35wZYI/AAAAAAAABsU/SLXYztJKqxw/s912/IMG_0027.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_C_ZmRsQylO0/TPWLNKsaTbI/AAAAAAAABsM/xYpy4vNJi74/s640/IMG_0028.JPG

A little something odd going on with the seatstays. look closely and you can see how it narrows in one spot. Its identical on the other seatstay. I'm not sure if some doof just really overtightened a rack clamp at one point or if it's made like that.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_C_ZmRsQylO0/TPWLIANvuaI/AAAAAAAABsI/LVPZYl7O2ps/s640/IMG_0029.JPG


SO a question about wheels. I see in the catalog that original equipment is 26" x 1 1/4" rims and John Bull tires. What size 26" is that? 650A?

Nice score! That wheel size is EA1 or 597mm. It's hard to find, whether rims or tires. But a couple of bikes I own that called for that wheel size seem to fit 700c wheels and fenders with no problems. Given the clearances your pics show, you should also have no problem.

Neal

27" would be even better.

the widest spot on the indentations on the inside of the chainstays is about 13 1/4" from the middle of the rear dropout.

A test fit with a modern 26" wheel confirms that it can also handle pretty fat, slightly smaller diameter tires like 26" or 650B. The rear brake bridge and the fork crown are both high enough to take 27"

It looks a bit odd sitting on the 700's, seems like the BB is awfully high? no? Maybe just the picture? If you can find a Cyclo for the gearing than maybe it would be worthwhile looking for a set of EA1's? Is the BB face chewed up or was that just a bad ebay picture? Should be a fun project, can't wait to see it come together!

A test fit with a modern 26" wheel confirms that it can also handle pretty fat, slightly smaller diameter tires like 26" or 650B. The rear brake bridge and the fork crown are both high enough to take 27"

Very cool! Comparing your photos with 700c wheels to the catalog, it looks like the bike in the catalog has 27" wheels on it (although I see the catalog lists ISO 597 rims).

Looking at your photos, I just can't see that even an extra long reach caliper is going to reach an ISO 597 rim, let alone a 650B (ISO 584) rim. Add to that the only period correct calipers you're going to find won't have quite the reach as a modern Tektro.

When choosing your rim size, you have to consider all the other variables --hubs and brakes-- at the same time. If you're contemplating a period-correct Sturmey Archer or something, they're easy to find in 40H; in which case I'd suggest 650A since you can get CR18's in the correct drillings. Finding a 32/40 pair of rims in any other size will be a real challenge. But the smaller wheels will give you brake reach issues.

Speaking of which, what brakes are you considering? With 700c you can use fairly modern aluminum sidepulls, centerpulls, whatever you want, and you'll have good anachronistic functionality. With 650A you can go period correct, which probably means chromed steel side pulls like what you find on a typical English three speed.

And what about fenders? Can you fit fenders over 700c or 27" tires?

I'm not advocating for one wheel size or another, just advocating to think the wheel size through before buying anything.

Edit? Ack! Justin beat me to it!

With 650A you can go period correct, which probably means chromed steel side pulls like what you find on a typical English three speed.


Like the brakes on my Raleigh Sports? They don't look like they'd reach an ISO 597 rim on that frame. He'd need 12.5mm more reach than he would with the wheel pictured. That's a stretch (not to mention the braking efficiency would pretty much suck).

Like the brakes on my Raleigh Sports? Yeah, that's the ones I mean, though I'd avoid anything that says Raleigh on it (just 'cuz).
They don't look like they'd reach an ISO 597 rim on that frame. He'd need 12.5mm more reach than he would with the wheel pictured. That's a stretch You may be right, I don't know; but not having seen either bike I suspect the distance from the brake mounting hole to the dropout on the Dawes is pretty close to that on your Sports, and the Sports' brakes (together with its fenders and wheels) would work on the Dawes. You could just as well mount 27" wheels on your sports, though with different brakes and no fenders.
(not to mention the braking efficiency would pretty much suck). Period correct, man!:lol:


Actually, with orange coolstop pads and aluminum rims, I'd bet it wouldn't be that bad.

Period correct, man!:lol:


True that.

I test fit a 26"x2.0" (ISO 559) just to see and It will fit a 2.0 tire which measured to 43mm on the rim.

It does seem pretty tall on 27 or 700c and I completely agree that even with the 700c rims in my pics its still a loooong reach for those brake calipers.

650A is high in the running. Panaracer makes a nice wide-ish 650A tire and there's a chance I could get caliper brakes to hit the rim.
650B is a consideration because I can run some fatty tires and the rim is only gonna drop another 5mm in terms of where the brakes hit. Although I'm gonna need all the brake reach I can get as it is. Maybe drum brakes should be on my mind. by the same token 26"(559mm) is also possible.
700c is in the running but It would be a tight fit for Panaracer 32mm Paselas because of clearance at the chainstay bridge...it could affect fender fitting. Of course brake reach would be improved.

I kinda dont think I'll bother with 597...tires choices suck as do rim choices.

there's a cyclo derailleur thats appears correct for this bike (correct model and look, not sure on the date) that's ending today. I'm hoping nobody else on earth has noticed it and i'll be the only bidder :lol:

650A is high in the running. Panaracer makes a nice wide-ish 650A tire and there's a chance I could get caliper brakes to hit the rim.

Yes. The Col de la Vie. They're pretty much awesome. They're half the reason I want a 650B bike with big ol' Grand Bois tires. Cushy, but not at all sluggish.

http://gallery.me.com/justinhughes/100105/My%20Photo_3/web.jpg?ver=12880457310001

very nice. are those original rims?

very nice. are those original rims?

Yes. They are the reason oxalic acid was invented. :lol: