Advocacy & Safety - Roundabouts Make Inroads in US

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/us/19roundabouts.html?hp

I'm all in favor of traffic calming measures, but as a bicyclist I'm not fond of roundabouts and try to avoid them when possible. Drivers look left as they enter and don't check what's in front of them when they pull forward. I came very close to being a hood ornament two months ago and only my propensity for screaming frightfully loud obscenities when scared saved me.

I love em. There are several here, including two on a high traffic four lane state highway. Reports seem to indicate that traffic is flowing much smoother than when those intersections were stoplights, but there hasn't been an official traffic count done since they finished them, so it isn't known if they are handling the same amount of traffic as before. The article is spot on about opposition to the things. Every time the city unveils plans for a new one, everyone predicts chaos, mayhem and death. I haven't had any trouble with them on my bike. For me, riding through them is fun. Just have to be sure to keep to the left until you need out.

Roundabouts are ok as long as drivers (that includes bike drivers) know how to navigate them. There's too many stories of people going the wrong way in a roundabout. Also, proper signaling in a roundabout needs to be taught in driving school. Nobody around here signals, and if they do it is not proper signaling.

I've never had trouble with them, but I have seen some ridiculous driving around them.

Hahaha about the opposition. They wanted to build a new one near here, and a bunch of old people who lived nearby got it killed by claiming it would "be too hard for senior drivers to figure out how to navigate". My thought at the time was, "if you're too dumb to be able to use a roundabout, perhaps it's time to hang up the keys".

One lane roundabouts are fine, the two lanes ones still need a lot of work IMHO.

There are two notable (bad) examples here in Fort Worth. The thing that makes them bad is that they are *not* set up where you're supposed to yield to traffic already in the circle. Instead, priority is given to the major traffic flow directions (for instance, at one of them, traffic on the circle must yield to traffic entering the circle from the north and south).

They re-did a six-way intersection recently. The original plan called for a traffic circle, but they backed away from that and have a normal light-controlled intersection that is very confusing (which lane should I be in to turn "kind of" left?) and takes forever to cycle.

When I've traveled to England, I enjoyed the roundabouts. I can't imagine them working in the U.S. though- drivers are too st00pid to begin with, and now they're always texting and stuff.

I'm all in favor of traffic calming measures, but as a bicyclist I'm not fond of roundabouts and try to avoid them when possible. Drivers look left as they enter and don't check what's in front of them when they pull forward. I came very close to being a hood ornament two months ago and only my propensity for screaming frightfully loud obscenities when scared saved me.

The small ones don't seem to have that problem. I've cleared the intersection before they can accelerate into me.

I really like the small ones, as opposed to what would be a 4 way stop.

There are two notable (bad) examples here in Fort Worth. The thing that makes them bad is that they are *not* set up where you're supposed to yield to traffic already in the circle. Instead, priority is given to the major traffic flow directions (for instance, at one of them, traffic on the circle must yield to traffic entering the circle from the north and south).

They re-did a six-way intersection recently. The original plan called for a traffic circle, but they backed away from that and have a normal light-controlled intersection that is very confusing (which lane should I be in to turn "kind of" left?) and takes forever to cycle.

When I've traveled to England, I enjoyed the roundabouts. I can't imagine them working in the U.S. though- drivers are too st00pid to begin with, and now they're always texting and stuff.

The older traffic cirlce is an example of dangerous design, for all users. Modern roundabout design is leaps and bounds ahead of that. I think like anything that people will need to get used to them.

We have a number of the mini-version in my neighborhood, and they work great. But I haven't tackled a multilane one on my bike yet.

I forgot to mention... the multilane intersection closest to my house would be an excellent candidate for a roundabout. 18 or 20 hours a day, there is no conceivable reason to make cars stop. During rush hour, it is crowded. I think making it a signal-controlled roundabout, and leaving the signals on yellow flash for 18 hours a day would result in a big reduction in pollution and fuel consumption. (Accelerating from a dead stop is when most polution and fuel consumption occurs.)

There are two notable (bad) examples here in Fort Worth. The thing that makes them bad is that they are *not* set up where you're supposed to yield to traffic already in the circle. Instead, priority is given to the major traffic flow directions (for instance, at one of them, traffic on the circle must yield to traffic entering the circle from the north and south).

They re-did a six-way intersection recently. The original plan called for a traffic circle, but they backed away from that and have a normal light-controlled intersection that is very confusing (which lane should I be in to turn "kind of" left?) and takes forever to cycle.

When I've traveled to England, I enjoyed the roundabouts. I can't imagine them working in the U.S. though- drivers are too st00pid to begin with, and now they're always texting and stuff.

The Weatherford traffic circle has always given me fits. You have to know where your exit is well before hand so you can squeeze your way in. On the other hand I always thought the Bluebonnet circle was cool.

I have a 2 way all directions roundabout on my commute. I've never had a problem. I find it much better than a light controlled intersection.

City of Golden had some good success with four roundabouts down Golden Rd: http://ci.golden.co.us/files/roundaboutpaper.pdf

So much success, they added a fifth roundabout, and have to roundabout interchanges in the works along the highway that runs by Golden.

I don't have too many troubles riding my bicycle through them.

We have lots of new mini-roundabounts in the Raleigh/Cary NC area. I like riding through them. My favorite ones are at low-traffic areas like residential streets where it's unlikely you'll have to wait for traffic in the roundabout, and at most you just modulate your speed on approach. Much, much better than stopping at 4-way or even 2-way stop signs.

Dive into this: http://www.azdot.gov/ccpartnerships/Roundabouts/index.asp

Several videos and fun animations. Don't miss the menu bar across the top of the section (home, history, user guide, az examples, etc.)

Lots of animations here: http://www.azdot.gov/ccpartnerships/Roundabouts/AZ_Roundabouts.asp

this one is 'fun'
http://www.azdot.gov/ccpartnerships/Roundabouts/L202_11.asp

interesting illustration. ^^^

We're starting to get some in the Rochester, NY area, with the usual whiners complaining that they could never possibly work here, people drive differently in the U.S compared to Europe, etc.

Probably the same people who regularly blow stop signs and risk tickets, never considering the fact that they can now, in most cases, achieve the same effect legally.

I recently read this: http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785
It is an *outstanding* read!
The author *really* did his homework researching it.

The striking things about roundabouts he brought up:
- They move much more traffic per hour than stoplights.
- They result in only a fraction of the injuries and fatalities of an intersection with stoplights.

There are several roundabouts in my area.
This only problem is the idiots who:
- Stomp on the brakes to a complete stop right in front of me even though the circle is empty.
- Stop and wait and refuse to go until the circle is completely empty, (which it never will be as long as there is sufficient traffic from the other 3 directions). I just go around them if there is enough space to their right.

The Weatherford traffic circle has always given me fits. You have to know where your exit is well before hand so you can squeeze your way in. On the other hand I always thought the Bluebonnet circle was cool.

The other spot they considered a circle, the 6-way I mentiond (if you haven't guessed) is University/Camp Bowie/7th/Bailley. Bluebonnet is fine only because the traffic volume is light. But becuase it is light, there is no reason for traffic entering the circle from University should have right of way over traffic already on the circle. Makes no sense.

The right way to do the Weatherford Circle is to give traffic on the circle already priority, except during rush hour where it should be controlled by traffic lights. I've seen this in England and it works rather well.

This only problem is the idiots who:
- Stomp on the brakes to a complete stop right in front of me even though the circle is empty.
- Stop and wait and refuse to go until the circle is completely empty, (which it never will be as long as there is sufficient traffic from the other 3 directions). I just go around them if there is enough space to their right.

This is one of the problems when they re-did the circle in Waco, TX. DOT "Made it clearer" by marking white lines and stops signs every where instead of keeping it simple, "signal and yield to traffic in the circle" After it was cleaned up it was a lot harder to navigate and I had more close calls afterward.

The one in town is called the "suicide circle" - 5 streets intersect into a 2 lane roundabout with stop signs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/us/19roundabouts.html?hp

So figuring this is something new, I click the link, and am surprised to find the classic New England Rotary. These are as old as the hills in this neck of he woods, and are as common as a stop sign.

Am I missing something, or are these structures just not that common in other parts of the US?

So figuring this is something new, I click the link, and am surprised to find the classic New England Rotary. These are as old as the hills in this neck of he woods, and are as common as a stop sign.

Am I missing something, or are these structures just not that common in other parts of the US?

Most of the new roundabouts are very much smaller than a New England rotary (I grew up in NE). The "mini roundabouts" are designed with such tight turnin radii that drivers cannot really exceed about 15-20 mph in the roundabout, and typically travel more slowly than that out of caution. A cyclist can easily match the speed of most other traffic in most of these roundabouts. The smallest, slowest ones are used on low-volume residential streets. Somewhat larger ones are used on arterials where there is a desire to reduce speeds and crashes while preserving decent throughput.

By comparison, many NE roundabouts allow speeds in excess of 30 mph, sometimes much faster, depending on the size.

The one 50 YARDS from my street is a NIGHTMARE! Here in NJ the vehicle ENTERING has the ROW! This one is a beaut. Wide enough for 2 lanes, but they are UNMARKED so people drift over as they please. And to top it OFF, there is a gas station in the center with TWO filling areas and the cheapest gas in town! Death to the Department of Transportation, highway "engineers", and the Zoning Board!!!!!!

To avoid it on my comute or almost ANY ride, I must travel an extra MILE on a hill!

So figuring this is something new, I click the link, and am surprised to find the classic New England Rotary. These are as old as the hills in this neck of he woods, and are as common as a stop sign.

Am I missing something, or are these structures just not that common in other parts of the US?
History here: http://www.azdot.gov/ccpartnerships/Roundabouts/History.asp

I've used roundabouts with various vehicles (bicycle, car, bus) here in Colorado and in various European cities. There's nothing hard about them, but I think a lot of American drivers are going to have to put down their cell phones and start paying attention to what they're doing when driving a car.

Uh interesting "history... " although I think it is a bit inaccurate.


The first modern roundabouts in the United States were constructed in Nevada in 1990.

Up above Doohicky and I were discussing roundabouts that have been in the Fort Worth area for as long as I can remember... and I got my driver's license back in about 1972.

This roundabout has existed long before 1972 and well before 1990. It is the classic roundabout, with drivers entering yielding to drivers in the circle.
http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=32.699069,-97.359703&spn=0.002645,0.005627&t=h&z=18

I've used roundabouts with various vehicles (bicycle, car, bus) here in Colorado and in various European cities. There's nothing hard about them, but I think a lot of American drivers are going to have to put down their cell phones and start paying attention to what they're doing when driving a car.

Agreed and about time.

Most of the new roundabouts are very much smaller than a New England rotary (I grew up in NE). The "mini roundabouts" are designed with such tight turnin radii that drivers cannot really exceed about 15-20 mph in the roundabout, and typically travel more slowly than that out of caution. A cyclist can easily match the speed of most other traffic in most of these roundabouts. The smallest, slowest ones are used on low-volume residential streets. Somewhat larger ones are used on arterials where there is a desire to reduce speeds and crashes while preserving decent throughput.

By comparison, many NE roundabouts allow speeds in excess of 30 mph, sometimes much faster, depending on the size.


Ok, understood, thanks.

There are a couple of "smaller" ones up in NH, Milford/Amherst/Nashua areas, that have been built in the last 15 years or so, which I associate more with the European style roundabout often found on secondary roadways, as opposed to the larger "rotaries." Some of them are so tight, that I have to slow down on my bike or risk a pedal strike if I continue to pedal, they are that tight.

I suppose I was focused more on the photo in the NYTimes piece, and rotaries like that are a dime a dozen in these parts and some date back to the 50s and 60s.

zac

Uh interesting "history... " although I think it is a bit inaccurate.

'Modern Roundabouts.' Did you read it? Traffic circles, rotaries, etc. have been around long before mid-1900s in the US.

History here: http://www.azdot.gov/ccpartnerships/Roundabouts/History.asp

I understand what you are saying, I see from ssgoodri post that "roundabouts" are tighter, small radii circles. The NYT article was not clear on that distinction. Nor does the picture reflect anything other than an average sized rotary here in these parts.

Also just pointing out, there are numerous examples of low speed, tight radii rotaries here in NE that date way before when I started to drive, and that was in the mid 70s. So, saying they were invented in Nevada in the 1990s is a bit of a stretch for us New Englanders.

'Modern Roundabouts.' Did you read it? Traffic circles, rotaries, etc. have been around long before mid-1900s in the US.

Yes I think we all read it, but what is the difference? I see no functional or obvious design or use differences between the so called "modern roundabout" of the article, and several thousand very old and well travelled "rotaries" here in the Northeast. Sure there are some large, high speed, arterial Rotaries. I wasn't referring to those. And yes we have some newer very small rotaries, or roundabouts, if that is what you want to call them. But the picture in the NYT article, as well as the picture in Nevada/Arizona link....those structures are as common as they are old here. 1990? Try the 1950s around here.

EDIT: I can see why anyone who hasn't driven here extensively would be mislead by the articles linked.

The Arizona article about Easter Rotaries is just plain wrong:
1) at least here in Massachusetts, NH, Maine, VT. The Circulating traffic has the right of way, and the entering traffic must yield.
2) While yes there are some large radius, high speed Rotaries, there are also thousands (hundreds?) that are much, much smaller than 300' and are quite pedestrian in speed.

zac

Uh interesting "history... " although I think it is a bit inaccurate.



Up above Doohicky and I were discussing roundabouts that have been in the Fort Worth area for as long as I can remember... and I got my driver's license back in about 1972.

This roundabout has existed long before 1972 and well before 1990. It is the classic roundabout, with drivers entering yielding to drivers in the circle.
http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=32.699069,-97.359703&spn=0.002645,0.005627&t=h&z=18


let me give you an idea on scale. On the left we have that circle you reference, the right is a new roundabout outside rochester, ny. Both pictures are on the same scale.

EDIT: I've updated the pciture as the original one didn't have the same scale.

'Modern Roundabouts.' Did you read it? Traffic circles, rotaries, etc. have been around long before mid-1900s in the US.

They define modern roundabouts as having slower speeds, yielded entries, and flared entry approaches, and small diameters and are calculated for lower speeds.

The roundabout I mentioned has everything but the flared entries, they are merely rounded. It really is a true roundabout. (and "ancient" by the writer's standards).

By contrast, the Weatherford traffic circle, also in Fort Worth is a "traffic circle" with all the problems mentioned, including the weaving and merging... a real nightmare.

BTW I am not disputing you... just the writer of the link you provided... I don't think they did very good research.

let me give you an idea on scale. On the left we have that circle you reference, the right is a new roundabout outside rochester, ny. Both pictures are on the same scale of approx 100ft/in.



The one on the left merges 6 roads, the one on the right merges 4 roads. Could that have something to do with the diameter?

179070


The one on the left merges 6 roads, the one on the right merges 4 roads. Could that have something to do with the diameter?

Even the swindon magic roundabout is about 1/2 the size.

179070



Even the swindon magic roundabout is about 1/2 the size.

Yeah, but they do everything bigger in Texas. :innocent:

The one on the left merges 6 roads, the one on the right merges 4 roads. Could that have something to do with the diameter?


I live in Rochester... and the one on the right services two roads that have a very, very small amount of traffic. So little that some people - I won't say who - occasionally gives his kids a thrill by circling it several times to make them dizzy. ;-)

I've used roundabouts with various vehicles (bicycle, car, bus) here in Colorado and in various European cities. There's nothing hard about them, but I think a lot of American drivers are going to have to put down their cell phones and start paying attention to what they're doing when driving a car.

Besides the fewer conflict points, that is the primary idea of roundabouts.

Those azdot links I provided has numerous other related links:
http://www.azdot.gov/ccpartnerships/Roundabouts/Links.asp (scroll down)

Like this: http://www.k-state.edu/roundabouts/

I also love roundabouts. There are several streets in my neighborhood that run parallel to major arterials that during rush hour, are used by speeding cars who want to avoid the clogged main streets. They recently took out all the stops signs on the streets and put in roundabouts, now the commuters avoid the streets. It's a cyclist's paradise.

Yeah, but they do everything bigger in Texas. :innocent:

Haha point taken. I've been to texas. The service roads with the seperate u turn lanes are quite interesting too.

From what I've read, roundabouts are cheaper to contstruct then lights, certaintly cheaper to run. I wonder how much extra they cost over stop signs, espcially for less busy in town and rural roads.

Haha point taken. I've been to texas. The service roads with the separate u turn lanes are quite interesting too.

From what I've read, roundabouts are cheaper to construct then lights, certainly cheaper to run. I wonder how much extra they cost over stop signs, espcially for less busy in town and rural roads.

The relative costs would vary greatly depending upon the cost of right-of-way. Roundabouts generally require more right-of-way at the intersection than other traffic control devices like stop signs and signals. If right-of-way cost is ignored, stop signage is cheaper, and signalized intersections are more expensive (in general).

The relative costs would vary greatly depending upon the cost of right-of-way. Roundabouts generally require more right-of-way at the intersection than other traffic control devices like stop signs and signals. If right-of-way cost is ignored, stop signage is cheaper, and signalized intersections are more expensive (in general).

This is my understanding; although it ignores the time cost of travel and (expected) collision differential.

... and congratulations on the weight loss!

Good for cars. Dangerous for cyclists.

This frightens me. I used to live in an area of SF that was loaded with roundabouts, and the fact is that nobody in this country knows HOW to drive in them. I can't tell you HOW many times I saw people turning the wrong way into the flow of traffic, or failing to yield to vehicles already in the roundabout, and getting all agro about it.

I feel like this threat is going around in circles.

Roundabouts are ok as long as drivers (that includes bike drivers) know how to navigate them. There's too many stories of people going the wrong way in a roundabout. Also, proper signaling in a roundabout needs to be taught in driving school. Nobody around here signals, and if they do it is not proper signaling.

I observed a car yesterday that went the wrong way at two consecutive traffic circles. What a maroon.

City of Golden had some good success with four roundabouts down Golden Rd: http://ci.golden.co.us/files/roundaboutpaper.pdf

So much success, they added a fifth roundabout, and have to roundabout interchanges in the works along the highway that runs by Golden.

We lived off of west 16th when they put those in (across from Summit View / Lunnunhaus). Glad to hear they are such a success! The first six months that they were putting them in were terrible, though. They didn't finish before the snow started, and all winter long the entire road was unpaved. Without road markings there were constantly people turning the wrong way into the (not quite laid out) roundabouts, but you couldn't blame the roundabouts themselves, as they were only marked out with stakes.