Tandem Cycling - Is a Santana New/Old frame still worth the money?

Hi all,
We are new to the tandem world and looking at a new tandem. We are looking for a good solid, comfortable bike for longer rides like RAGBRAI. No plans for self contained rides though.
The frame I am looking at is a new Santana Noventa steel frame left over from 2001/2002 time frame. It has never been assembled and my LBS is equip'ing it with Sweet 16's (I know, I know), Ultegra shifters and cranks, flattop carbon bars, rear disc brake, a custom paint job, etc. It is basically a new bike, but an new/old frame.
Question is: is it still worth the money or has technology changed enough since then that I should get a newer frame. He is giving a pretty good deal as it was a special order that was canceled. I was originally thinking about a Comotion. What are your thoughts? Thanks
Ken

Fine frames remain fine frames. Typical improvements these days are finding ways to reduce the frame by 1/2 a pound while still delivering the same quality ride as the previous model. The Noventa was replaced by the Nivacrom and, in fact, that's pretty much what changed. Geometry remains the same, and forks are plug and play between 2001 and 2010: no change in compatibility.

Now, when you introduce an alternative like a Co-Motion in the same breath you invite a different line of questioning: have you ridden either one? Like all other bikes, each brand / builder offers frames that embody their own philosophy about how a bike should 'feel' and handle, and tandems are no exception. Santana and Co-Motion have different design philosophies which do, in fact, yield a somewhat different product that would make a test ride on examples of both a good idea. The don't have to be the exact same model you're interested in, a steel Co-Motion and a steel Santana will each be fairly representative of their philosophical differences.

That all said, I always try to impress upon first time tandem buyers that your first tandem should be just that: your first tandem. Be conservative and try to get a good bike that will meet your immediate needs and use it to learn what you like and don't like about the bike. If you get into the tandem scene you may find yourselves at regional tandem club events, national rallies and events like RAGBRAI where you'll see other tandems and talk to their owners to learn more about what's available. Once you know how much time you'll spend tandeming you'll be far better prepared to make that 2nd, longer-term tandem purchase and will typically be able to recoup a good amount of what you spent on the first tandem to cover part of the cost.

Lots of good advice from TandemGeek. I'd have no problem with the frame, assuming it wasn't stored outside all these years on someone's balcony. :-) Component technology would have advanced farther than frame technology, not that components from back then weren't good (speaking from experience with an '01 C'dale tandem with 10k miles on original components. :-)

When purchasing a Santana:
- be sure that the sizing is done right. Because of the different steerer tube diameter, you pretty much need a Santana stem. Swapping out the stem later means finding a compatible one - easier done at the start.
- if you are ever going to want a rear rack get it now. Most rear racks don't fit Santana's wider spacing at the rear axle. If you can talk the bike shop out of a compatible rack at a good price now is the time.

If the frame fits perfect and price is huge discount and includes a free new paint job (why a new paint job on a new frame?).
As long as you are aware of Santana's idosyncracies and they dont bother you.
Add up what the total cost will be with the frame and all your components and compare it to price of 2010 models from 'tana, Co-Mo, DaVinci or even C'dale.
As suggested, test ride comparable metal tandems before you clinch the deal. Handling/fit between brands can make a big difference.
Price alone should not dictate your choices.
Just our input.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

If you don't mind me asking, how much is a pretty good deal?

Figures, I write a long reply and it looses it. I'll try again.

jnbrown, it's a little under $6k out the door.

First off, thanks to all of you for your replies. We are not new to riding, just to the tandem world. That being said it's nice to hear alot of the advice I normally give coming back at me.
During our first look, we were at the bike shop about 5 hours learning and riding bikes. We started on the Santana Soverign which rode really nice. For our first time on a tandem, we started out really comfortable on it. Next we tried a Comotion Big Al. Without conversing, the wife said she felt like she was working much harder on it. I was thinking the same thing. The front fork geometry didn't exactly fit my comfort zone either. The Trek and Cannondale rides were pretty nice, but still didn't match the Santana. Lastly, we rode a used Santana Noventa Medium frame, much like the new one. We both really liked the way it rode, even if it was way too small (we need an XL). During the day, we went back and forth several time between bikes to ensure what we thought was true. We didn't ride the Paketa or the Calfee.
I spoke with Santana and they said the frame probably came straight out of their warehouse, so no barn storage. It still has the padding taped on it.
Thanks for the heads up on the rack. I knew the geometry was different, but never thought about that. We are planning on a rear rack, so that will be a good thing to bring up.
I mis-spoke on the paint job. It is already custom painted, not getting repainted.
Weather permitting, we will be test riding it next weekend. Any more advice is always welcome. Thanks to everyone for their words of wisdom. Each is taken, absorbed and digested:thumb:
V/R
Ken

I am assuming the new Noventa is an XL so it will fit you?
It might ride differently than the medium in terms of flex and handling although I think not too much.
In that price range you should have lots of options and it sounds like you test rode a good sampling of different brands.
I had a Sovereign (aluminum) for about 15 years and really enjoyed it before recently getting a Calfee.
If you have a chance to ride some other tandems then do so and also ride the Noventa again to confirm your current feelings.
If you still like the Santana then go for it. I guess you have been warned about the sweet 16 wheels.
If it were me I would demand 32 or 36 spoke wheels with Velocity Fusion rims.

When purchasing a Santana:
- if you are ever going to want a rear rack get it now. Most rear racks don't fit Santana's wider spacing at the rear axle. If you can talk the bike shop out of a compatible rack at a good price now is the time.

Not true about the rear rack. I've owned four Santanas over the years, and have used standard Blackburn racks on all of them. You just need to spread the struts a bit. I also bend the part of the strut that attaches to the eyelet a bit so it contacts the eyelet fully. Lots of loaded miles (self-supported touring) on this setup and never an issue.

And, as an aside, it also is not always true that you need a V-brake mount rack (like Old Man Mountain that mounts to the V-brake studs) to get a rack to work on a bike with V-brakes. This is largely dependent on the frame size, where the rack braze-ons are placed, etc. You may need to go this route, you may not. Our Santana Fusion (med frame, 26" wheels) was custom spec'd with the rack braze-ons higher up so the rack attachment stays clear the V-brake. I'm not sure why Santana doesn't do this on all their frames. Our Santana Cabrio triplet (med frame, 700c wheels) did not have rear rack braze-ons at all (weird), so we use P-clamps on the seatstays. By mounting the P-clamps all the way at the top of the seatstays the rack struts clear the V-brakes, but just barely. If I ever get it repainted I'll add rack braze-ons high up there.

Not true about the rear rack. I've owned four Santanas over the years, and have used standard Blackburn racks on all of them. You just need to spread the struts a bit.
I guess it depends on the rack materials. Some are stiffer than others, and I wouldn't want to go bending aluminum overly much, as it loses strength when bent.

And I prefer, wherever possible, not to have to bend/modify accessories to get them onto the frame.

I used an OMM rack on my Santana attached to the V brakes.
I believe it was special for Santana and was wider at the bottom mounts although I remember having to stretch it some. It was a very sturdy rack and I liked the V brake mounting. On my Calfee I have a Tubus and it is actually wider than the Santana because extra spacers are required to clear the seat stays were they attach to the rear dropouts. Tubus racks are made of chromoly tubing and there is no problem with bending them. They are probably the nicest made rack out there but also more expensive. Still I think the OMM rack is a good solution for a Santana with V brake mounts.

Our first tandem was a 2006 Co Motion Speedster and I recently purchased a 1993 Santana Noventa.

Comotion - put about 12,000 miles on the bike and I have to say it is a fine machine. Especially good value.

Noventa - Purchased because I wanted to try a more flexible frame. That will surpise many people but I like flexible single bikes and we are a sub 300 lb team. I was looking for the lively feel of a flexible single. Due to having smaller diameter tubes with thinner walls, the Noventa considerably more flexible and both my stoker and I think it is more fun FOR US to ride. A little more skill needed to hit it hard standing, but we like the surging feeling as it accelerates. Plenty stable for us.

The key here is personal preference. Depending on your team weight I would suggest either because they are both good bikes. If I were to ride with my adult son as stoker rather than my wife I would pick the Comotion. Of course in that case the team weight goes up to about 350 lbs and the power goes up considerably.

Of course the real solution is not took look at this as a purchase but rather your first tandem purchase....

Wayne Sulak

I guess it depends on the rack materials. Some are stiffer than others, and I wouldn't want to go bending aluminum overly much, as it loses strength when bent.

And I prefer, wherever possible, not to have to bend/modify accessories to get them onto the frame.

I've successfully fit the following racks on my 160mm-spaced Santana: Blackburn (aluminum), Tubus (steel), and Bruce Gordon (steel).

For the Blackburn, I only had to bend the attachment points at the dropout a small bit. No problems in 10+ years of loaded touring.

But, yes, generally speaking, it's better not to have to bend/modify accessories to mount them to you bike. Practically speaking, though, with a tandem and a triplet, I find that I have to do that with some regularity due to the uniqueness of the bikes.

I'm not as impressed with the price, which not many people have addressed. A new comparable Santana goes for something like $6200. My bike costs about $800 more now than when I bought it new 10 years ago and it's not as far up the food chain as the one you're looking at.

2nd issue is the Sweet 16 wheels. They spec the new version of this bike with these wheels and you might want to research it a little more. A lot of members here have loved the way they ride, a lot of members here have also had problems with them. Maintaining them is finicky and if they aren't kept up in the exact manner that Santana recommends, they will not honor the warrantee. Read up on it on Santana's website.

I am admittedly a big fan of Santana, however, I fully realize that there are other very good bikes and that you should try as many different ones as you can. When shopping for a bike we rode a few different ones in our price range. The comparable Co Motion was excellent, but we were more comfortable on the Santana (Arriva). We haven't looked back since.

There are a lot of Santana bashers on this group, mostly complaining about rear spacing, larger headsets, etc. Let's look at this realistically. Say you break a rear hub. You go down to your shop and tell them that you need a new hub with a 145mm spacing. They tell you that it's a special order item. They order it and you wait. On a Santana, you call Santana on the phone, give them a credit card number and you have it in a couple of days. So I don't understand the problem. Also, there are a number of tandem mail order houses that carry Santana compatible components, so it's not like you'll be stuck if anything goes wrong.

You should look carefully at the pros and cons of this bike. It's hard to make an objective decision when you're in love with a product. The bike you're looking at is excellent. Do what your gut tells you to do and don't concern yourself with what others say. It's a Mac vs. PC thing-they're both good. Get the one that floats your boat and above all have a ball!

Oh, and I do have a brake mounted rack that was put on when I bought the bike.

I am admittedly a big fan of Santana... There are a lot of Santana bashers on this group, mostly complaining about rear spacing, larger headsets, etc.

:trainwreck:

I feel a blog entry coming on....



I'm not as impressed with the price,

I would agree; that's a pretty tidy sum for a nearly decade-old, new old stock frame. Of course, now I'm curious... where are you (you, as in Chasn_racin) located?

I would agree; that's a pretty tidy sum for a nearly decade-old, new old stock frame. Of course, now I'm curious... where are you (you, as in Chasn_racin) located?

I am in the DC area. I was thinking the same thing about the price. If a new one costs the same or close, but has the same components on it is it a bad purchase? Not sure. I guess it will come down to the ride. Hoping to get up there this Sat and get some miles on it and a few others. Thanks for all the advice. Oh, and by the way, I'm a Mac guy:eek:

Ken

I'm new to tandems so I don't have any direct info for you, but maybe if you can find old Santana brochures of each year, you can find the exact differences to the frame. Normally single-bike companies spell out any changes they make to the frame design in their sales brochures, such as beefing-up the BB, or using s-shaped seat-stays for comfort.

FWIW I think the Santana idiosyncrasies have done a lot to keep older frames current. Bill got to the 1-1/4' steerer and 160mm spacing a long time
ago and it hasn't changed since. So almost all the newest Santana stuff will fit on my '97 Sovereign. You certainly can't say that about Shimano or
Trek. It's special order now, but it was then too. of course it's good to leave a little Kool Aid in the pitcher - I wouldn't have ordered a frame without
rim brake bosses the first year that a disk brake came out, however good McCready said it was.

Also I wouldn't worry about fitting racks - I've bent the legs on a Blackburn mtn rack and had no problems - it's a minor cold set

I'm in the camp that at 6K you are not getting much of a discount; it's much closer to a new price than used. I would say about 3K for components and 3K
for the frame. You could always buy a used bike for 3K and hang all new components. But fit and comfort trump a lot of price considerations.
I think your dealer may still want to get something out of the custom paint job, which is fine if it is worth it to you, not so good if you are happy with plain vanilla.
One key consideration is whether the fork is Steel or Carbon. A Carbon upgrade may cost about $800 later. I'd also question the flat bars as most buyers of this
bike would prefer the extra hand positions of Drop bars for longer rides.

I am in the DC area. I was thinking the same thing about the price. If a new one costs the same or close, but has the same components on it is it a bad purchase? Not sure. I guess it will come down to the ride. Hoping to get up there this Sat and get some miles on it and a few others. Thanks for all the advice. Oh, and by the way, I'm a Mac guy:eek:

As for the price, it's an interesting proposition for the dealer (Larry B, a long-time friend) if (a) the frame price has changed, and (b) the Nivacrome (replacement model) is being marketed as a 'significant improvement" over the previous frame, while (c) still aiming to extract a similar price for the older frame. I'll check the catalogs from 2001 and 2002 tonight to see what the pricing was: pretty sure I still have those stashed away in my "library".

Again, value to the buyer is the key. Heck, I can think of several older frames that I'd pay a premium for vs. some of the newer models for a variety of reasons. It's like one of our BF brothers wrote, sometimes you just find a frame that 'feels' better (aka, planes in Jan Heine speak) and so long as it's a new frame with full warranty, what the heck. But, if the dealer paid 25% less for that frame in 2001, he paid 25% less for it (period); therefore, trying to sell for 10% less than a comparable new frame is pretty sporty. But, hey, good tandem dealers who've been around a while and amassed inventories are typically good businessman, so you sometimes gotta put on your negotiation hat instead of your shopper's hat: we truly have become a nation of shoppers... and that's a shame, but I digress.

Oh yeah, Mac guy since 1989 (PC at work &^%$#@)

Oh yeah, if you have the time give the Paketa and Bamboo Calfee a try... if only to "clean your pallet" before jumping back on the other tandems that you're most interested in.

Yes, $6,000 does feel really steep for that bike. A new 2000 Noventa sold for $5500! See the specs on Gear-to-Go's site (http://www.gtgtandems.com/specs2000/sanroady2k.html). The Noventa is nice in that it is a fillet-brazed frame (I believe), so it will be prettier than bikes with more pedestrian joining techniques. Also has upgraded tubing. Older Santanas can have some really nice joinery work.

For $6295 you can buy a brand-new Santana Team Niobium (http://santanatandem.com/Bikes/TeamNiobium.html). Id' sure do that before spending $6k on a NOS bike.

For a first-time tandem team, I'd set my sights on a good-value used tandem. You'll probably start seeing more show up on ebay, craigslist, etc., now that winter is setting in. If you are in the DC area, I assume you are dealing with Larry at Mt. Airy/College Park bikes. They have a good selection of other bikes, too, presumably including better value used tandems.

I also noticed that Rich at Gear-to-Go tandems has some new Santanas on special (http://www.gtgtandems.com/specials.html), including the Team Niobium for $5795 and a Team Scandium for $6795.

I also noticed that Rich at Gear-to-Go tandems has some new Santanas on special (http://www.gtgtandems.com/specials.html), including the Team Niobium for $5795 and a Team Scandium for $6795.

Well yeah, but you'd have to be little folks like me and Debbie to buy them, i.e., they're small and medium size models to make room and free up cash for the 2011 models. Oooh... can you say buyers market?!

There are a lot of Santana bashers on this group, mostly complaining about rear spacing, larger headsets, etc. Let's look at this realistically. Say you break a rear hub. You go down to your shop and tell them that you need a new hub with a 145mm spacing. They tell you that it's a special order item. They order it and you wait.
Well, I'm not interested in being classed as a Santana basher, but I can't help responding to this one. There are many tandem-specific items, and when I need on, I don't go down to the local shop, I get on the web. And there are multiple sources competing for my business. So what's tandem-specific? On a non-Santana, that would be the wheels, crankset, frame and fork, eccentric, stoker stem, and perhaps the bottom bracket(s). On a Santana, I get to add the FD, the captain's stem, and arguably the rear rack. And the extra wide rear bottom bracket. And I have less selection in cranksets, but I'm not limited to single source.

Most of these things don't break. So the argument about "what if it breaks" doesn't wash with me (at least not much). A bottom bracket can wear out, as can the bearings in a hub. I've never had a hub break, although I've heard of it happening.

Why do am I even interested? We got a used Santana for our (grown) kids to ride last summer. Being in the necessary price range, I picked it up even though it was marginal for fit: needed the longest, steepest stem available to fit my son. Took awhile to find the single source for one of those stems (Precision, as I recall).

Santana makes a fine bike. The first one we rode didn't work for me (combination of things, including fit), but that doesn't mean I'd never ride one (or perhaps even buy one, but at this point I don't see a new bike in our future).

But I'd just suggest that anyone buying a Santana new get it right the first time, rather than planning to change a lot of things over time. It's just so much easier that way.

Well, my wife and I qualify as little people, I guess! We can ride either a small or medium, although both our Santanas are mediums.

Well, my wife and I qualify as little people, I guess! We can ride either a small or medium, although both our Santanas are mediums.

Sweet; we can swap rides!

But, with regard to my comment our friend Chasn_racin needs an XL, to wit and from an earlier posting:


Lastly, we rode a used Santana Noventa Medium frame, much like the new one. We both really liked the way it rode, even if it was way too small (we need an XL).

so you sometimes gotta put on your negotiation hat instead of your shopper's hat

Tandemgeek. Thanks for the sound advice. Larry seems like a straight-shooter, and I know it's business. We might have to sit down with some figures if it pans out. Good thing is I'm not in love with the bike, I just like it. Whether it goes home with me or not is dependent on the ride and the price.
Question on the Sweet 16 rims...I have read all the posts on here about the cracks. We are a 310-320lb team. Not really agressive riders or racers. If these rims are watched closely, will they most likely work out or should I run from them like running from a Ford Pinto! Thanks
Ken

When looking for our Noventa I corresponded with Larry B. about one of his used Noventas and I came away feeling he is a strong believer in the value of a fillet brazed frame regardless of age. He appeared to be an honest dealer that loves tandems and the fine workmanship of a Santana Noventa. I did decide to buy elsewhere due to the price of his used bike but he seems like a great guy with a huge tandem inventory.

If the age and price of that tandem bothers you , you might explore what he has in other tandems that are not fillet brazed.

Good Luck

Larry is an amazing guy and, as you note, a straight shooter.

Well, I went back and looked at the numbers and I'd actually forgotten that Santana began holding the line on product cost in the late 90's.... in some cases even reducing prices on a few models in the early 2000's to help close the price gap with their primary competitor's similar models. One parity was achieved, year-to-year increases were modest.

The net result is that... and this is kind of mind blowing: a 2002 NOS Noventa frame adjusted for inflation had a retail price that is $478 higher than a 2010 Niobium frame.

Here's the pricing over a few years:

2000: $3,495 frame & fork, or $5,495 full bike with alloy cranks, steel fork & conv. wheels
2002: $3,495 frame & CF fork, or $5,495 full bike with CF cranks, fork & conv. wheels
2004: $3,295 frame & CF fork, or $5,495 full bike with CF cranks, fork & conv. wheels

Noventa (NivaCrom frame) replaced by Niobium (Spirit Niobium frame)

2006: $3,296 frame & CF fork, or $5,895 full bike with CF cranks, fork & Sweet 16 wheels
2008: $3,595 frame & CF fork, or $6,295 full bike with CF cranks, fork & Sweet 16 wheels
2010: $3,595 frame & CF fork, or $6,295 full bike with CF cranks, fork & Sweet 16 wheels

So, in retrospect, the question now becomes what was the 'added value' of switching from the NivaCrom 7/4/7 frameset that promised a classic, fillet-brazed finish with a frame that mimic'd the feel of Titanium. The Niobium 6/3/6 is best summed-up by metallurgist Conor Buescher of Vendetta Cycles as, "mechanically stronger than their Nivacrom counterparts and can be drawn to thinner gauges giving more performance (a lighter frameset)." Or, if you prefer, what Santana calls an "all new alloy that magically combines the weight savings of aluminum and the ride quality of titanium with the goodness of steel" that will give you "the planet's lightest, strongest and fastest steel tandem."

I think this takes us full circle to my initial reply: the TIG welded Niobium frame is about a pound lighter than the fillet-brazed Noventa. So, there are clearly some aesthetic differences -- TIG vs fillet -- as well as the weight difference -- 454 grams or 16oz of water -- and both frames should be about as durable as each other. Me? I'd go with the one that simply 'feels' better. Years back when we went shopping for our first tandem we rode everything and while I went in looking to buy a Raspberry Swirl Santana Sovereign (it was the hot ticket for wanna-go-fast tandem newbies who had to have a Santana), we ended up taking home a year-old Santana Arriva demo because it simply delivered a much more comfortable and confidence inspiring ride. And, at least for our first tandem, I saw those as being the key to making Debbie's first experience as a true, adult road cycling enthusiast as positive as it could be. We had a great first experience on the Santana and we learned enough about tandems over the next 10 months to realize there's only so many things you can upgrade on a tandem before you need to address the core foundation -- the frame. We commissioned our first Erickson tandem in June 1998 and sold the Santana a week before our Erickson arrived in December 1998. We've had two other road tandems built around our '98 Erickson frame design, a 2nd Erickson with couplers for travel that was sold to make room for a Calfee travel tandem. Nothing but fond memories from our Santana: a great product that performed very well backed up by a great company (albeit, with over-the-top marketing, at least within the context of the tandem industry).

So, there you go... Perhaps there are enough things to like about the Noventa frame that makes it a better value at $6k with the same build kit that sends a Niobium out the door for $6,295. If so, perhaps there's a deal to be had with some minor consideration for deeply discounted accessories, i.e., a bro deal on a Garmin for your stoker, el-freebo water bottle cages, etc... Again, I was actually quite surprised at how well Santana has held the line on their Noventa / Niobium frame over the years. Again, put your negotiator hat on. Larry has a lot of inventory, but he also knows that the key to negotiating the deal is a win-win. Frankly, the 1lb difference would be the least compelling reason I could imagine for wanting a Niobium over a Noventa if the ride qualities were similar.

As for the Sweet 16 wheels, similar to the Rolfs they look cool and "feel" faster than heavier conventional wheels. At speeds above 25 mph, they probably are a bit more Aero than 36h conventional wheels. But, durability and longevity remains a hit or miss proposition for folks who actually put a lot of miles on their tandems. With a set of Rolf's and Topolino's hanging in the garage and conventional wheels on our Calfee 99% of the time, I think you can make some assumptions about how I view the use of racing wheels on tandems that aren't being used for races or other "special events".

So, I guess my bottom line would be:

A. Go ahead and get the Sweet 16's if you like the bling, and either ride the heck out of them during the warranty period, being careful to follow Santana / Shimano's wheel maintenance instructions (http://santanatandem.com/Library/sanreup.pdf) to the letter.... OR,
B. Get the Sweet 16's but strongly consider getting a 2nd set of lightweight conventional wheels for your everyday rides and save the Sweet 16's for special events when you want to look your best or when you might really benefit from the very slight performance tick they'll yield.

NOW, if you plan on racing, then go with a less expensive conventional wheelset and save your pennies for a no-kidding set of racing wheels, e.g., Zipps, etc...

I see you saying you're in the DC area: if you're in SOMD and just describe it as DC (as we do for ease of explanation) there's an awesome little bike shop down here that sells Co-Motions that is DEFINITELY worth a shot. We ended up with a brand new Co-Mo Supremo for a few thousand under list price.

TandemGeek: WOW. I didn't expect such the in depth research, but I surely appreciate it. It makes a lot of sense.


I see you saying you're in the DC area: if you're in SOMD and just describe it as DC (as we do for ease of explanation) there's an awesome little bike shop down here that sells Co-Motions that is DEFINITELY worth a shot. We ended up with a brand new Co-Mo Supremo for a few thousand under list price.

We actually live in Upper Marlboro. Where is the bike shop in SOMD? Name and address or website? Thanks!
Ken

WOW. I didn't expect such the in depth research, but I surely appreciate it.

My pleasure and it's also a bit self-serving...

I was genuinely interested in taking a look back and I learned something that I didn't fully appreciate. I'll also most-likely amortize my post by re-cycling it on my blog with a few edits.

I'm curious as the to the MD bike shop, too (although I'm in the Philly area). I can recommend Silver Cycles in Silver Spring, Md. It's co-owned by a friend of mine (Baird Webel) who is a long-time tandemist. I don't believe they normally stock tandems, but they do special orders with Co-Motion.

The shop is called Serge Performance Cycles. He's a small shop, so he doesn't carry tandems that he doesn't have buyers for, but he was fantastic to work with. info:

Serge Performance Cycles
21540 Great Mills Road, Lexington Park, MD 20653 (301) 737-0045 () ‎

I warn you, while his bike shop is awesome, his website is not. :)

**Update**
Well, after going out in the freezing cold with serious wind gusts and riding the Santana Noventa, we decided against it. It just didn't WOW us the way we thought it would. We also rode a CoMotion M Periscope and a Santana Soverign. The LBS is going to order a L or XL CoMotion for us to try out. Up until now we have not been able to ride a CoMotion that is our size. So, after all the discussion, the search continues. One thing we have found out is that we find the aluminum bikes more comfortable. I also told them no Sweet 16's. Thanks for all the help and information. I'll keep everyone updated.
Ken

I am just going to through this out there.
If you are going to spend $3695 on a Santana frame or over $6K for a complete bike, you could get a Calfee frameset for $4895 plus another $500 for a fork.
If you want WOW I can all but guarantee that is what you will get with the Calfee.
It is a tandem that will last you a lifetime and you will never feel a need to upgrade.
I was not able to test ride one before buying and had to go on references and blind faith but in the end we are totally ecstatic about the bike and don't regret spending a ton of money on it. Being that I purchased all of the components and built it myself I was able to keep the cost down to just over $8K. Normally a bike like a Calfee is something you graduate to after many years of tandeming (30 years for us).
If you are new to tandeming and just want to have some fun and get some experience I would look for a used Santana or CoMo. It may not be exactly what you want but you are going save a lot of money buying it and lose less money selling it. I paid over $5K for my Sovereign and sold it for $2K. We did ride it for 14 years so I was ok with that.

What are your thoughts? Thanks
Ken

Ken, a Santana is mostly Marketing. A steel Santana is mostly hype. Ride other tandems. Take a trip to Denver and rent tandems to ride from Tandem Cycle works.

The best advice I can give you is to ride as many tandems as you can. My best recommendation is to get a Cannondale tandem. It won't be as expensive as a Co-Motion but will still be a rocket ride, climb like a goat, and not be the flexy inefficient garbage frame that steel Santana is. Avoid the "steel is real" sillyness. Steel just makes for a lousy tandem.

If you can afford it, get a Paketa. Otherwise stick to Co-Motion or Cannondale, even over Santana aluminum frames. Santana writes good copy, but the frames just do not match up to the propaganda.

I think a used Cannondale, aside from being the best bang for the buck in tandems, will flat out out-perform anything not a Co-Motion or a Paketa racing tandem, hands down.

Oh boy, here we go again!

Oh boy, here we go again!

It's been several months since I tuned into this forum but the discussion never changes. Everyone knows their favorite brand is the best. This Santana thread caught my eye because.....Santana is stoker's and my "go to" bike. Our Team AL is 10 years old this month. We bought it from our friend and touring companion Rich at GTG. (we met Larry Black on one of those tours.) The Sweet 16s {the first ones out of Shimano** are history but they made it 9 years. Our Blackburn expedition rack on it still carries the load. We have worn out most of the components at least once and have replaced them. We have bought and sold several tandems since but most were too "squirrely" compared to the easy going handling of our Santana.

One more name to drop, just ordered a couple of replacement decals from Mark.

Merry Christmas!

I think you can disregard the previous post. He pipes in here every couple months with slightly skewed opinions then leaves again. I would suggest that the vast majority of people on this forum think that Santana makes a very good quality bike. I think that the objections that most people have with Santana are with its owner and his proprietary tendencies which are valid concerns.

I think you can disregard the previous post. He pipes in here every couple months with slightly skewed opinions then leaves again. I would suggest that the vast majority of people on this forum think that Santana makes a very good quality bike. I think that the objections that most people have with Santana are with its owner and his proprietary tendencies which are valid concerns.

I don't have a problem with Santana's proprietary bits. Everything on a tandem is more or less so uncommon that it might as well be proprietary. The 160mm rear spacing isn't an issue to me. I'm much more concerned about lighter but stronger wheels due to the improved spoke bracing than I am over chain line. The headset size issue shouldn't bother anyone. Santana learned the hard way that their 1" steerer tubes were failing, and sometimes catastrophically (think Vision tandem recumbent failures). This even with the pressed in steerer support that Santana used to use on the 1" steerers. I didn't have a problem with the 1 1/4" and I don't have a problem with anything larger. I never want a steerer or fork failure on a descent, or even on flat terrain.

What I do have a problem with is that Santana sells crappy tandems. So much more so than on a single, a tandem's soul is its frame. A tandem frame is asked to do ten times, if not a hundred times what a single frame is asked. There is no such thing as a "good" steel tandem, I don't care who makes it or with what tubing.

I'm not a fan of Santana aluminum tandems, as compared to even a Cannondale, a Co-Motion, or a Paketa (magnesium). However, an aluminum Santana is preferable to anything, by any maker, steel. However, there just isn't value in a Santana tandem, steel, aluminum, titanium, or carbon. There are lighter, stronger, stiffer, faster, better climbing, tandems out there, and for considerably less than what a Santana costs.

As for frequency of posting, that's funny. I don't think I've posted in years. Not really since the sophistry of the Gates Belt drive inanity. However, I don't think the frequency of the poster has any correlation to the accuracy of the information.

You can site a pattern of Santana steering head failures? 1" steering heads were the norm on all bikes not that many years ago. I'm not sure how Vision tandems frame failures of eight years ago relate to Santana?
"Santana sells crappy tandems"???? Are you saying they have bad frames because of the materials they use? Last I heard they are making tandems out of steel, Al, Niobium, Scandium, Ti and carbon. Should they make a Mg bike too? Is it their craftsmanship? How are you backing that up? You are making sweeping generalizations and saying nothing of substance. You say they cost too much? Last I checked they were pretty much in line with their competitors. Their prices range from $3500 for low end steel to $11,000 for their high end carbon ($4,000 cheaper than a Calfee equivalent to mine) Regardless, the price of a bike has everything to do with what people are willing to pay. If their customers thought they were overpriced they'd be out of business. Since they do a pretty healthy business the evidence would suggest otherwise.
You say you'd never want a steerer or fork failure yet you'd put your 500+lb team on a sub 5lb magnesium frame?:twitchy: I'm not sure what Paketa would do for you. If you went to Calfee for a custom frame I guarantee you won't be picking up a Dragonfly.

Geez, never thought I'd be defending Santana...:rolleyes:

You can site a pattern of Santana steering head failures? 1" steering heads were the norm on all bikes not that many years ago.

Actually, there was a problem with a few different versions of Santana's butted 1" fork steerers. Bill McCready posted about a handful of the early fork failures back at Hobbes in '94: Broken Forks (http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.9407.0190.eml)

You might also recall that in April '09 our BF brother uspspro discovered he had one of these butted, un-reinforced forks on their Santana: Ooooops (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/533933-Ooooops!). So, yes... there are still a few of these problematic forks out there on older Santana tandems.

Now, all that said, Santana makes excellent tandems (period).

So do (and so have) Co-Motion, Bilenky, Rodriguez, daVinci, and many, many other builders. Steel remains one of the best materials for tandems, as it can be drawn in a variety of thicknesses and shaped to optimize frame stiffness and other characteristics to achieve the builder's desired handling and comfort. Other materials such as aluminum, titanium, composites, magnesium and bamboo can also be used by good builders to build a tandem that exhibit excellent handling with varying degrees of comfort when combined with the right forks, wheels and tires.

Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't know much about bicycle frame construction methods and has lost their objectivity based on their own, unique requirements.

Sorry, I missed that. ;) That was what, sixteen years ago! Thanks for setting me straight. :)

Sorry, I missed that. ;) That was what, sixteen years ago!

Yes, but uspspro's fork failure was only 16 months back. It's just a data point and I'm a fact-based kinda guy, so I was compelled to respond with some facts.

However, as I said, Santana builds excellent tandems (period).

Facts are always good. ;)
I don't see anything horrible in there and they did what any stand up company would do and recalled the defective product.

Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't know much about bicycle frame construction methods and has lost their objectivity based on their own, unique requirements.

Ok, that does always irk me. TandemGeek, albeit five years apart, like to point out that it is unfair to criticize a particular frame material, if the cyclist making the reference is an outlier. I don't agree. I think you want to test or evaluate products or components using the acid test, so to speak.

Listen, if a frame or a component is strong enough to be safe for me, and is light enough to be considered on your bike, why would you disregard that for something that is revealed to be substandard?

We can visually see the twist in a steel tandem frame, including Santana frames. The reason I give Santana such a hard time is the sophistry of their marketing campaign. Santana's sales pitch is correct, that the frame on a tandem is critical to the ride experience. A tandem that climbs well, that descends controllably, and is more efficient than a tandem that climbs like a boat anchor, that doesn't track predictably, and that sucks up a significant amount of your wattage, is also likely to result in a more enjoyable ride. Santana for years has tried to make the claim that their tandem frames are stiffer laterally and more efficient than other makers. Its just not true. I think its taken as given that Santana is indulgent to say the least with the claims they make in their propaganda versus what their bikes actually deliver compared to another tandem manufacturer. Santana gets away with it because most tandem enthusiasts will never ride another brand before they purchase a Santana, believe it or not.

I, personally, don't think anyone should ever buy a steel tandem. To me its like buying a Walmart bike instead of a real bike. They are just incomparable. However, my experience, as TandemGeek established, does dominate my perspective. However, how could it not? My argument has always been that everyone else would benefit from a carbon/titanium/magnesium/aluminum tandem, not just outlier teams. I've also always argued that most people purchase a tandem without actually being able to compare it to anything else. How many people on this forum have ever actually ever ridden a steel AND an aluminum Santana? Let's get a show of hands. Now of those same people, how many have actually ridden a Cannondale and/or Co-Motion? I suspect we are talking about a handful of people that frequent the forum at most. Throw in Paketa and Calfee and beyond TandemGeek I don't think anyone on here is in that sample.

I'm just saying that the average Craigslist Co-Motion or Cannondale tandem is incomparably a better value than even a Craigslist steel Santana. I would challenge anyone as being disingenuous who claimed they actually preferred a steel Santana to a Co-mo or Cannondale, if they had actually spend significant time in the saddle on both. Again I don't know what its like to be Marco Pantani with a stoker that's 80lbs dripping wet. However, I intimately understand the limitations of tandem frames, and tandem makers, as function of my unique reference frame, for what that is worth.

I don't know a thing about the latest greatest low spoke tandem racing wheelsets. However, I feel like I know a thing or two about the limitations of steel tandems, and Santana frames.

I feel like I know a thing or two about the limitations of steel tandems, and Santana frames.

I respectfully disagree.

You merely have expectations that weren't met by the Santana tandems that you've ridden. The same is true of many tandem teams who have ridden your preferred Cannondale frames who found them unsatisfactory for one reason or another. Such is the nature of bicycle and tandem frame impressions where subjectivity is a powerful thing and often trumps objective analysis and test data.

Yeah, Santana's marketing rubs me the wrong way too, but I've owned a Santana Arriva, ridden several other Santana tandems and have ridden and spoken with hundreds of Santana owners of varying sizes and riding styles over the years and can easily parse my feelings for their marketing from their products. Yeah, a lot of the marketing is bovine scatology and uses junk science, but they build nice bikes. While there have been a few Santana owners who were unhappy with their tandems, it had nothing to do with the integrity and stability of the frames.

...How many people on this forum have ever actually ever ridden a steel AND an aluminum Santana? Let's get a show of hands. Now of those same people, how many have actually ridden a Cannondale and/or Co-Motion? I suspect we are talking about a handful of people that frequent the forum at most. Throw in Paketa and Calfee and beyond TandemGeek I don't think anyone on here is in that sample...

I've put between 5-6000kms on a steel and Al Santana and about 1500kms on a Cannondale. The Santana's and Cannondale belonged to my riding partners, I currently own a Calfee. I've raced the Al Santana and the Calfee. I've done rides like the Auburn Century (140miles 16,000ft of climbing) on the AL Santana. If fact, my partner and I set a course record on the Furnace Creek 508 on her Santana. To say it doesn't climb as well as the Cannondale is silly.

Many people feel that Santana over does the marketing hype or have other philosophical disagreements with the company and (mainly) its owner that does not take away from the fact that they do make a very good bike.